Where are the Questioning Minds?
Azra Rashid February 3, 2006
#282 Posted by dost_mittar on February 9, 2006 6:14:58 pm
Urstruly#272:
``CARICATURES THAT CAUSED THE LOSS OF 6 MILLION HUMAN BEINGS ``
Really? Then may I ask you please give your comments on what is the likely impact of the following excerpts from Pakistani textbooks? These excerpts have been reproduced on chowk several times and I googled them only to provide in the context of your comment. I might add that some of the statements may not be totally false, just as the jews being bankers and having crooked noses is not completely false.
``These are extracts from government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education.
Class IV
The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.
The Hindus treated the ancient population of the Indus Valley very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.
The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.
Class V
After the war of 1965, India with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, incited the people of East Pakistan against West Pakistanis. In December 1971, the Indians themselves also attacked East Pakistan. As a result…East Pakistan separated from us. We should all receive military training so that we can foil the designs of the enemy in the future.
The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.
Class VI
In the middle of the city of Deebal (Sindh), there was a Hindu temple. There was a flag hoisted on top of it. The Hindus believed that as long as the flag kept flying, nobody could harm them. Mohd bin Qasim found out about this…. The Muslims began to catapult stones at the temple and at the flag, ultimately making it fall to the ground. The whole city became tumultuous and the Hindus lost heart. Some Muslims clambered up the walls of the temple and forced open the door. Qasim’s army entered the city and after conquering it, announced peace. The Muslims treated the vanquished so well many Hindus converted to Islam.
Before the Arab conquest the people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists and Hindus.
The foundation of the Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty.
The Hindus who had always been opportunists cooperated with the British.
The Hindus used to please the goddess Kali by slaughtering people of other religions.
Class VII
Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped their earnings. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever-increasing compound interest.
History has no parallel to the extremely kind treatment of the Christians by the Muslims. Still the Christian kingdoms of Europe were constantly trying to gain control of Jerusalem. This was the cause of the Crusades.
European nations have been working during the past three centuries, through conspiracies or naked aggression, to subjugate countries of the Muslim world.
w Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase Muslim culture and civilisation.
The Hindus too wished to ruin Muslim civilisation and culture by destroying Urdu which has been closely associated with the Pakistan Movement.
Class VIII
During the Khilafat Movement Hindus and Muslims were completely united and like brothers and they started to cooperate and live in peaceful togetherness. But as soon as this movement ended, Hindu hatred of the Muslim re-emerged.
Before Islam people lived in untold misery all over the world.
Class IX
The Hindus and the Muslims…could not amalgamate each other’s way of life to become one nation.The main reason for this difference of cultures, civilisation and outlook was the religion of Islam which cannot be assimilated in any other system as it is based on the principle of…oneness of God….On the other hand, Hinduism is based on the concept of multiple Gods….There lies the difference between the Hindu and Muslim way of thinking.
In connivance with the (British) government the Hindus started communal riots and caused loss of life and property.At the time of prayers the Hindus tortured the Muslims by playing music in front of the mosques. Before the commencement of classes the students saluted the portrait of Mahatma Gandhi and Muslim students were also forced to do so.
Muslims promoted equality and social justice as against the division (created by) the (Hindu) caste system.
Class X
(The ideology of) Pakistan…was a revolt against the prevailing system of India in which Hindu nationalism was imposed on the Muslims….
Islam gives a message of peace and brotherhood…. There is no such concept in Hinduism. Moreover Islam preaches brotherhood, equality and justice…. On the other hand, the Hindu society is based on caste system which downgrades the entire mankind.
After the establishment of Pakistan the Hindus and Sikhs created a day of doom for the Muslims in East Punjab.
The Hindus were encouraged by the (British) government to force the Muslims to join the Congress``
``CARICATURES THAT CAUSED THE LOSS OF 6 MILLION HUMAN BEINGS ``
Really? Then may I ask you please give your comments on what is the likely impact of the following excerpts from Pakistani textbooks? These excerpts have been reproduced on chowk several times and I googled them only to provide in the context of your comment. I might add that some of the statements may not be totally false, just as the jews being bankers and having crooked noses is not completely false.
``These are extracts from government-sponsored textbooks approved by the National Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education.
Class IV
The Muslims of Pakistan provided all facilities to the Hindus and the Sikhs who left for India. But the Hindus and the Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore, about one million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.
The Hindus treated the ancient population of the Indus Valley very badly. They set fire to their houses and butchered them.
The religion of Hindus did not teach them good things, Hindus did not respect women.
Class V
After the war of 1965, India with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, incited the people of East Pakistan against West Pakistanis. In December 1971, the Indians themselves also attacked East Pakistan. As a result…East Pakistan separated from us. We should all receive military training so that we can foil the designs of the enemy in the future.
The Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.
Class VI
In the middle of the city of Deebal (Sindh), there was a Hindu temple. There was a flag hoisted on top of it. The Hindus believed that as long as the flag kept flying, nobody could harm them. Mohd bin Qasim found out about this…. The Muslims began to catapult stones at the temple and at the flag, ultimately making it fall to the ground. The whole city became tumultuous and the Hindus lost heart. Some Muslims clambered up the walls of the temple and forced open the door. Qasim’s army entered the city and after conquering it, announced peace. The Muslims treated the vanquished so well many Hindus converted to Islam.
Before the Arab conquest the people were fed up with the teachings of Buddhists and Hindus.
The foundation of the Hindu setup was based on injustice and cruelty.
The Hindus who had always been opportunists cooperated with the British.
The Hindus used to please the goddess Kali by slaughtering people of other religions.
Class VII
Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped their earnings. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever-increasing compound interest.
History has no parallel to the extremely kind treatment of the Christians by the Muslims. Still the Christian kingdoms of Europe were constantly trying to gain control of Jerusalem. This was the cause of the Crusades.
European nations have been working during the past three centuries, through conspiracies or naked aggression, to subjugate countries of the Muslim world.
w Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase Muslim culture and civilisation.
The Hindus too wished to ruin Muslim civilisation and culture by destroying Urdu which has been closely associated with the Pakistan Movement.
Class VIII
During the Khilafat Movement Hindus and Muslims were completely united and like brothers and they started to cooperate and live in peaceful togetherness. But as soon as this movement ended, Hindu hatred of the Muslim re-emerged.
Before Islam people lived in untold misery all over the world.
Class IX
The Hindus and the Muslims…could not amalgamate each other’s way of life to become one nation.The main reason for this difference of cultures, civilisation and outlook was the religion of Islam which cannot be assimilated in any other system as it is based on the principle of…oneness of God….On the other hand, Hinduism is based on the concept of multiple Gods….There lies the difference between the Hindu and Muslim way of thinking.
In connivance with the (British) government the Hindus started communal riots and caused loss of life and property.At the time of prayers the Hindus tortured the Muslims by playing music in front of the mosques. Before the commencement of classes the students saluted the portrait of Mahatma Gandhi and Muslim students were also forced to do so.
Muslims promoted equality and social justice as against the division (created by) the (Hindu) caste system.
Class X
(The ideology of) Pakistan…was a revolt against the prevailing system of India in which Hindu nationalism was imposed on the Muslims….
Islam gives a message of peace and brotherhood…. There is no such concept in Hinduism. Moreover Islam preaches brotherhood, equality and justice…. On the other hand, the Hindu society is based on caste system which downgrades the entire mankind.
After the establishment of Pakistan the Hindus and Sikhs created a day of doom for the Muslims in East Punjab.
The Hindus were encouraged by the (British) government to force the Muslims to join the Congress``
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#284 Posted by anil on February 9, 2006 8:04:49 pm
Re: # 282
Dost Sahib:
From age 9 to 15 are formative years in child development. Are there statistics about how widely such books are or were used in Pakistan? How long these books remained as the carriculam?
This will allow to understand the hateful generation that may have come out of this education system.
Personally I am shocked to read such text being taught to students in their formative years. I am sure KKK can justify many things about the blacks being right. The question is as a greater good of society, should that be taught or fought?
I do not see any excuse religious or otherwise to teach such hatred to children at their formative age.
Anil Kapuria
Anil
Dost Sahib:
From age 9 to 15 are formative years in child development. Are there statistics about how widely such books are or were used in Pakistan? How long these books remained as the carriculam?
This will allow to understand the hateful generation that may have come out of this education system.
Personally I am shocked to read such text being taught to students in their formative years. I am sure KKK can justify many things about the blacks being right. The question is as a greater good of society, should that be taught or fought?
I do not see any excuse religious or otherwise to teach such hatred to children at their formative age.
Anil Kapuria
Anil
#281 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 3:55:09 pm
#26 urstruly, in addition to the quick response below, here is a more complete response to your post.
you write: ``Personally, I do not want Muslims in West to pursue a goal to change the free speach laws here and that is the consensed position of those at the helm of the affairs. It is agreed that Jewish model is not suitable for Muslims. Since jewish people have committed a grave crime agaisnt people of Palestine with the help of Europeans and Americans, they want to and they have to stifle all debate under cover of anti-semitism; and holocaust is an excuse. On the other hand Muslims have commited nothing wrong and therefore we have nothing to hide. But at the same time in order to promote our religion in the West we have to direct all questioning and debate within the boundries of civility and mutual respect. That is the reason at this time we must nip the evil in the bud. ``
Response: I have already responded to this in my post below. A thoughtful non-defensive response would be appreciated. Specifically, do you agree when I say that when you say that the jewish people have committed a grave crime that we pakistanis have committed a crime several times graver against the hindu and sikh people who lived in what is now Pakistan.
``you write : Lets not forget that the greatest crime in the history of mankind, that is holocaust, started by the caricatures of Jews and their ways. Lets also not forget that the latest genocide in Europe, and that was religion based genocide of Muslims, happened only ten years ago. Which means that despite two world wars, cold war, and holocaust the vicious animal mindset of Europeans is still raging albiet being apparently nascent at the time. Hence, we have to be on our heels. ``
Response: My earlier response covers this too - let us not demonize any community (europeans in the case above) - we pakistanis are not free from vicious animal mindsets either, as you well know.
you write ``One more issue is that what would be the limit for the bigotry and intolerance of Europeans. Today it is just cartoons, who can tell how low they would go if this is allowed to happen. You flip channels here on TV and what you find on every other channel is someone humping someone; even in the ads for chewing gum for crying out loud. Husband wife, brother sister, father daughetr are force fed this garbage day and night by atheists who call themselves liberals. Therefore, we as Muslims are drawing a line with our protest that this debauchery stops here. ``
Response: It is indeed true that TV has a lot of debauchery as you say. And many people - muslims and westerners alike - are disgusted by it and many are trying to have laws tightened against it. No issue.
you write ``I and overwhelming majority of Muslims do not condone violent outbusrts like embassy burnings. These are counter productive. Although this reaction can be explained because of the unrelenting military and cultural offence of West on our way of life in Muslim lands. At most half of middle east is under a brutal Western military occupation and rest is undersiege with threats of nuclear attacks. So what do you expect. ``
Response: You would have done well to stop with the second sentence. Please dont provide ``explanations`` for such stupid, self-destructive actions. These stupid demonstrators have accomplished nothing other than to confirm the message the cartoonist was trying to convey.
you write ``Muslim lands are also occupied by a class and rulers that are cutodian of Western interests. They are brutal, torturous and lawless. They have full backing of the West. In this situation people are left to fend for themselves. In the recent embargo of Danish products, it has only become clear that no one can stand the power of the people. If people want they can bring the beast of Western aggression to its knees. This is the way of the non-violenet passive resistance which West always wanted. Now that they`ve got their wish, we must thank Danish for doing us a favor.``
Response: What is the alternative you suggest - a democratic process of one-vote for every one man or woman, with rulers being accountable to the people? Or a return to the days of kings and khalifas who you think are accountable to only God?
you write: ``Personally, I do not want Muslims in West to pursue a goal to change the free speach laws here and that is the consensed position of those at the helm of the affairs. It is agreed that Jewish model is not suitable for Muslims. Since jewish people have committed a grave crime agaisnt people of Palestine with the help of Europeans and Americans, they want to and they have to stifle all debate under cover of anti-semitism; and holocaust is an excuse. On the other hand Muslims have commited nothing wrong and therefore we have nothing to hide. But at the same time in order to promote our religion in the West we have to direct all questioning and debate within the boundries of civility and mutual respect. That is the reason at this time we must nip the evil in the bud. ``
Response: I have already responded to this in my post below. A thoughtful non-defensive response would be appreciated. Specifically, do you agree when I say that when you say that the jewish people have committed a grave crime that we pakistanis have committed a crime several times graver against the hindu and sikh people who lived in what is now Pakistan.
``you write : Lets not forget that the greatest crime in the history of mankind, that is holocaust, started by the caricatures of Jews and their ways. Lets also not forget that the latest genocide in Europe, and that was religion based genocide of Muslims, happened only ten years ago. Which means that despite two world wars, cold war, and holocaust the vicious animal mindset of Europeans is still raging albiet being apparently nascent at the time. Hence, we have to be on our heels. ``
Response: My earlier response covers this too - let us not demonize any community (europeans in the case above) - we pakistanis are not free from vicious animal mindsets either, as you well know.
you write ``One more issue is that what would be the limit for the bigotry and intolerance of Europeans. Today it is just cartoons, who can tell how low they would go if this is allowed to happen. You flip channels here on TV and what you find on every other channel is someone humping someone; even in the ads for chewing gum for crying out loud. Husband wife, brother sister, father daughetr are force fed this garbage day and night by atheists who call themselves liberals. Therefore, we as Muslims are drawing a line with our protest that this debauchery stops here. ``
Response: It is indeed true that TV has a lot of debauchery as you say. And many people - muslims and westerners alike - are disgusted by it and many are trying to have laws tightened against it. No issue.
you write ``I and overwhelming majority of Muslims do not condone violent outbusrts like embassy burnings. These are counter productive. Although this reaction can be explained because of the unrelenting military and cultural offence of West on our way of life in Muslim lands. At most half of middle east is under a brutal Western military occupation and rest is undersiege with threats of nuclear attacks. So what do you expect. ``
Response: You would have done well to stop with the second sentence. Please dont provide ``explanations`` for such stupid, self-destructive actions. These stupid demonstrators have accomplished nothing other than to confirm the message the cartoonist was trying to convey.
you write ``Muslim lands are also occupied by a class and rulers that are cutodian of Western interests. They are brutal, torturous and lawless. They have full backing of the West. In this situation people are left to fend for themselves. In the recent embargo of Danish products, it has only become clear that no one can stand the power of the people. If people want they can bring the beast of Western aggression to its knees. This is the way of the non-violenet passive resistance which West always wanted. Now that they`ve got their wish, we must thank Danish for doing us a favor.``
Response: What is the alternative you suggest - a democratic process of one-vote for every one man or woman, with rulers being accountable to the people? Or a return to the days of kings and khalifas who you think are accountable to only God?
#280 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 3:36:45 pm
Netizen #259 yes. we are now on the same page.
#279 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 3:35:22 pm
teshah #262 the ``blasphemy law`` was introduced by a government that overthrew (and hanged) an elected prime minister. it has since been used to intimidate anyone lacking the ``pull`` in pakistan. so please dont joke by calling this travesty of islam and blot on the name of Pakistan a ``law``.
#278 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 3:32:54 pm
rsridhar #266 because i dont come to chowk to ``explain`` anything. i come to waste some time any way i please, and sometimes i learn something in the process.
#277 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 3:30:32 pm
bongdongs #258 Please no riddles. Trying to make sense of regular posts on chowk is bad enough. :-)
#276 Posted by rsridhar on February 9, 2006 2:09:28 pm
re:#272 by Urstruly
It is clear this dude harbors anti-semitic feelings, not surprising since he is from the state of Pakistan where hating a jew is considered sacred. It is surprising that he should do all this while still living in USA. I bet it is a matter of time this dude is shipped to his homestate by INS.
Sridhar
It is clear this dude harbors anti-semitic feelings, not surprising since he is from the state of Pakistan where hating a jew is considered sacred. It is surprising that he should do all this while still living in USA. I bet it is a matter of time this dude is shipped to his homestate by INS.
Sridhar
#275 Posted by ASO1 on February 9, 2006 1:19:50 pm
#246 Urstruly
``Following is a list of Danish products ..............until Danish government handover cartoonists and other culprits to a Muslim country where these animals be prosecuted under Blasphemy Laws.``
Be careful about what you ask for. It will set a precedent for prosecuting any one giving an azan under Blasphemy Laws. (In India for an example).
``Following is a list of Danish products ..............until Danish government handover cartoonists and other culprits to a Muslim country where these animals be prosecuted under Blasphemy Laws.``
Be careful about what you ask for. It will set a precedent for prosecuting any one giving an azan under Blasphemy Laws. (In India for an example).
#274 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 9:44:30 am
#274 urstruly: now you try to equate western governments with nazis while placing muslims in a victims status. please grow up!!
#273 Posted by tahmed32 on February 9, 2006 9:37:36 am
urstruly: you write ``Since jewish people have committed a grave crime agaisnt people of Palestine with the help of Europeans and Americans``
Anyone can point fingers at other communities while ignoring crimes committed in the name of one`s own community.
Thus, Pakistan was created an year or so before Israel. A hundred times more hindus and sikhs (perhaps around 10 million) were forced to leave their homes in Pakistan at that compared the number of Palestinians. In addition to this, perhaps a quarter of a million hindus and sikhs were killed in what is now Pakistan. What do you have to say to this?? While shedding tears for the palestinians, have you (or anyone else) in Pakistan ever thought of shedding tears (or even expressing some token of regret and sorrow) at those innocent people who were made homeless.
Please reflect on this.
Anyone can point fingers at other communities while ignoring crimes committed in the name of one`s own community.
Thus, Pakistan was created an year or so before Israel. A hundred times more hindus and sikhs (perhaps around 10 million) were forced to leave their homes in Pakistan at that compared the number of Palestinians. In addition to this, perhaps a quarter of a million hindus and sikhs were killed in what is now Pakistan. What do you have to say to this?? While shedding tears for the palestinians, have you (or anyone else) in Pakistan ever thought of shedding tears (or even expressing some token of regret and sorrow) at those innocent people who were made homeless.
Please reflect on this.
#272 Posted by Urstruly on February 9, 2006 8:28:45 am
CARICATURES THAT CAUSED THE LOSS OF 6 MILLION HUMAN BEINGS
Der Giftpilz (image ``The Jewish nose is bent. It looks like the number six...)
Ernst Hiemer, Fips, Illustrator
Book, 1938
Germany
The Mitchell Wolfson Jr. Collection,
The Wolfsonian-Florida International University,
Miami Beach, Florida
Nazi antisemitism held absurd notions about uniquely Jewish physical characteristics. Here a young German student conducts a lesson, under the approving eye of his teacher, on how to recognize the mythical ``Jewish nose.``
Der Giftpilz, (image ``The God of the Jews is money..``)
Ernest Hiemer, Fips, Illustrator
Book 1938
Germany
The Mitchell Wolfson Jr. Collection,
The Wolfsonian-Florida International University,
Miami Beach, Florida
A stereotypical Jewish stockbroker sits atop a bag of gold. The Nazis claimed that Jews commit the gravest crimes to get money.
#271 Posted by MantoLives on February 9, 2006 4:00:30 am
Yawn...
So what we think makes it true.
Gandhi`s works are there and the world will re-examine him after the dust Gandhi`s followers and liars have kicked up settles.
Its better to be an honest and upright nobody than to be a hypocritical disgusting somebody.
So what we think makes it true.
Gandhi`s works are there and the world will re-examine him after the dust Gandhi`s followers and liars have kicked up settles.
Its better to be an honest and upright nobody than to be a hypocritical disgusting somebody.
#270 Posted by harish_hyd on February 9, 2006 1:27:51 am
#268 by Mantolives
[Gandhi was a misogynist, racist, casteist Hindu bigot and a hypocrite... whereas Jinnah`s honesty and integrity is unquestionable.]
Tall words Yasser, but you know as well as I do that there is nothing you can do about Gandhi`s reputation. Greater men have attacked his reputation but they all bit the dust, while the man lives on. Your popularity does not extend that corner of Lahore where you live, so try by all means, but the laws of nature are infalliable. You can`t spit in the wind and expect it not to fall on your face. Gandhi will remain Gandhi and Jinnah will remain, well, a nobody.
[Gandhi was a misogynist, racist, casteist Hindu bigot and a hypocrite... whereas Jinnah`s honesty and integrity is unquestionable.]
Tall words Yasser, but you know as well as I do that there is nothing you can do about Gandhi`s reputation. Greater men have attacked his reputation but they all bit the dust, while the man lives on. Your popularity does not extend that corner of Lahore where you live, so try by all means, but the laws of nature are infalliable. You can`t spit in the wind and expect it not to fall on your face. Gandhi will remain Gandhi and Jinnah will remain, well, a nobody.
#269 Posted by MantoLives on February 8, 2006 11:22:53 pm
Raw Dust...
I must reconsider that statement... I actually do think ignoring Urstruly is a good idea... but you I consider a thinking fellow and therefore worthy of pity. Now you can go about consuming the crapola for which you have acquired a genuine craving.
I must reconsider that statement... I actually do think ignoring Urstruly is a good idea... but you I consider a thinking fellow and therefore worthy of pity. Now you can go about consuming the crapola for which you have acquired a genuine craving.
#268 Posted by MantoLives on February 8, 2006 11:20:25 pm
Dear Harish,
You are so over-confident about what you`ve achieved here today. If you honestly believe you have created any ``doubts`` then I wish to all the luck about living in a fools` paradise.
Haven`t you been trying to do this since 2004 though? Nobody is wriggling out of Gandhi-Jinnah debate mind you. If anything I have always stoked it and you have admitted it. This is the measure of my resolve - I will continue to raise this issue again and again .. Gandhi was a misogynist, racist, casteist Hindu bigot and a hypocrite... whereas Jinnah`s honesty and integrity is unquestionable.
Methinks your comments about doubts and about dishonesty are actually indicative of your own state (hence you wish to project) ... your myths about Gandhi have been shattered, you`ve been left to clutch at absolutely nonsensical arguments as exposed earlier and you are feeling very insecure in your ill-founded notion of Indian superiority whether in ideology or antecedents.
-YLH
You are so over-confident about what you`ve achieved here today. If you honestly believe you have created any ``doubts`` then I wish to all the luck about living in a fools` paradise.
Haven`t you been trying to do this since 2004 though? Nobody is wriggling out of Gandhi-Jinnah debate mind you. If anything I have always stoked it and you have admitted it. This is the measure of my resolve - I will continue to raise this issue again and again .. Gandhi was a misogynist, racist, casteist Hindu bigot and a hypocrite... whereas Jinnah`s honesty and integrity is unquestionable.
Methinks your comments about doubts and about dishonesty are actually indicative of your own state (hence you wish to project) ... your myths about Gandhi have been shattered, you`ve been left to clutch at absolutely nonsensical arguments as exposed earlier and you are feeling very insecure in your ill-founded notion of Indian superiority whether in ideology or antecedents.
-YLH
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