Where are the Questioning Minds?

inquirer #303 thanks. but remember, this principle you are agreeing with is a two-edged sword - it applies to indians as well as to pakistanis. :-)

Re: # 314, tahmed 32:
You probably meant #304.
Of course, my statement there is applicable to India. But crucial difference between India and pakistan is that India has met that test fifteen times in last 60 years.
Agree?

Tahmed ...

Amen !

#310 I too have read the 10 million figure somewhere, and clearly all figures are ballpark estimates anyway.

So, lets split the number evenly - and there are still 5 million sikhs and hindus who were forced to leave their homes. This is still over 5 times greater than the number of palestinians who were were forced to leave their homes. Are palestinians more precious than hindus or sikhs?? (not to speak of muslims who were similarly uprooted)?? how many times has any maulvi shed tears for these hindus and sikhs for whose plight we as Pakistanis are responsible?? not once have i heard this in any discussion even on chowk - let alone in any mosque or even mainstream newspaper or journal. That was the point i was making to urstruly that he has studiously avoided, aside from providing the compelling argument that i am an idiot for saying such things.

I just pray that over time we have more and more such idiots in Pakistan - because only then will be be worthy of being called a mature, civilized nation.

PS:

The areas that now constitute Pakistan accounted for 30 million people in all.

tahmed...

Agreed about that principle.

Recall that the Punjab and Bengal territories falling in Pakistan were already ``partitioned`` at Congress behest... and their Non-muslim majority districts were given to India. The Non-muslim populations in Muslim majority districts constituted less than 20% and not the exaggerated 30%... As HP showed very conclusively on one of the earlier boards that Punjab saw migrations and communal riots and not Sindh as much.

Furthermore.. the territories that constituted Pakistan also had Bengal where a substantial Hindu minority was retained and which is still there. Even the number of 3.8 million is a stretch. The sum of all migrations in both directions was 10 million and this is a number most historians agree on.

The 3.8 million Hindu/Sikh and the 5.5 million Muslim population figure is what historians like H V Hodson, KB Sayeed and Penderel Moon agree on... as the absolute maximum.

Yaar Inquirer...

Your incredible stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

The first 8 articles are not part of Chapter 1. Chapter 1 starts from Article 9. You may consult the Pakistani constitution and verify this information.

ylh: I am glad we agree on the basic principle that every time we point a finger at someone else, the other three are pointing to ourselves. And with the the thumb pointing to God - maybe the big Guy needs to take some credit for building such flawed creatures as us human beings. :-)

As for the exact numbers, while you are right the entries in wikipedia are not subject to the same level of scrutiny, I think the figures are in the ballpark - i.e. in 1947, the areas constituting pakistan had a population (as i recall reading somewhere) of 50 million. So, if even a fifth of this population was non-muslim, the figures of around 10 million is within reason.

While I find the Islamic content of Pakistani constitution quite superfluous ... the fundamental rights chapter of the Pakistani constitution is very progressive...

Fundamental Rights enshrined in the Pakistani constitution

The constitution of our Republic says:

Chapter 1. FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS

9. No person shall be deprived of life or liberty save in accordance with law.

10. (1) No person who is arrested shall be detained in custody without being informed, as soon as may be, of the grounds for such arrest, nor shall he be denied the right to consult and be defended by a legal practitioner of his choice. (2) Every person who is arrested and detained in custody shall be produced before a magistrate within a period of twenty-four hours of such arrest, excluding the time necessary for the journey from the place of arrest to the court of the nearest magistrate, and no such person shall be detained in custody beyond the said period without the authority of a magistrate.

11. (1) Slavery is non-existent and forbidden and no law shall permit or facilitate its introduction into Pakistan in any form.
(2) All forms of forced labour and traffic in human beings are prohibited.

(3) No child below the age of fourteen years shall be engaged in any factory or mine or any other hazardous employment.

(4) Nothing in this Article shall be deemed to affect compulsory service:-
(a) by any person undergoing punishment for an offence against any law; or
(b) required by any law for public purpose provided that no compulsory service shall be of a cruel nature or incompatible with human dignity.

12. (1) No law shall authorize the punishment of a person:-
(a) for an act or omission that was not punishable by law at the time of the act or omission; or
(b) for an offence by a penalty greater than, or of a kind different from, the penalty prescribed by law for that offence at the time the offence was committed.

13. No person:- (a) shall be prosecuted or punished for the same offence more than once; or (b) shall, when accused of an offence, be compelled to be a witness against himse1f

14. (1) The dignity of man and, subject to law, the privacy of home, shall be inviolable.
(2) No person shall be subjected to torture for the purpose of extracting evidence.

15. Every citizen shall have the right to remain in, and subject to any reasonable restriction imposed by law in the public interest, enter and move freely throughout Pakistan and to reside and settle in any part thereof.

16. Every citizen shall have the right to assemble peacefully and without arms, subject to any reason able restrictions imposed by law in the interest of Public order.

17. (1) Every citizen shall have the right to form associations or unions, subject to any reason- able restrictions imposed by law in the interest of [13] [sovereignty or integrity of Pakistan, public order or morality].

18. Subject to such qualifications, if any, as may be prescribed by law, every citizen shall have the right to enter upon any lawful profession or occupation, and to conduct any lawful trade or business:
Provided that nothing in this Article shall prevent:-
(a) the regulation of any trade or profession by a licensing system; or
(b) the regulation of trade, commerce or industry in the interest of free competition therein; or
(c) the carrying on, by the Federal Government or a Provincial Government, or by a corpora- tion controlled by any such Government, of any trade, business, industry or service, to the exclusion, complete or partial, of other persons.

19. Every citizen shall have the right to freedom of speech and expression, and there shall be freedom of the press, subject to any reasonable restrictions imposed by law in the interest of the glory of Islam or the integrity, security or defence of Pakistan or any part thereof, friendly relaffons with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court,[15][commission of] or incitement to an offence.

20. Subject to law, public order and morality:-
(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.

21. No person shall be compelled to pay any special tax the proceeds of which are to be spent on the propagation or maintenance of any religion other than his own.

22. (1) No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruc tion, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship, if such instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own.

(2) In respect of any religious institution, there shall be no discrimination against any community in the granting of exemption or concession in relation to taxation.

(3) Subject to law: (a) no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination; and
(b) no citizen shall be denied admission to any educational institution receiving aid from public revenues on the ground only of race, religion, caste or place of birth.

(4) Nothing in this Article shall prevent any public authority from making provision for the advancement of any socially or educationally backward class of citizens.

23. Every citizen shall have the right to acquire, hold and dispose of property in any part of Pakistan, subject to the Constitution and any reasonable restrictions imposed by law in the public interest.

24. (1) No person shall be compulsorily deprived of his property save in accordance with law.

(2) No property shall be compulsorily acquired or taken possession of save for a public purpose, and save by the authority of law which provides for compensation therefore and either fixes the amount of compensation or specifies the principles on and the manner in which compensation is to be determined and given.

25. (1) All citizens are equal before law and are entitled to equal protection of law.
(2) There shall be no discrimination on the basis of sex alone.
(3) Nothing in this Article shall prevent the State from making any special provision for the protection of women and children.

26. (1) In respect of access to places of public entertainment or resort not intended for religious purposes only, there shall be no discrimination against any citizer. on the ground only of race, religion, caste, sex, residence or place of birth.
(2) Nothing in clause (1) shall prevent the State from making any special provision for women and children.

27. (1) No citizen otherwise qualified for appointment in the service of Pakistan shall be discriminated against in respect of any such appointment on the ground only of race, religion, caste, sex, residence or place of birth. Provided that, for a period not exceeding [16][forty] years from the commencing day, posts may be reserved for persons belonging to any class or area to secure their adequate representation in the service of Pakistan: Provided further that, in the interest of the said service, specified posts or services may be reserved for members of either sex if such posts or services entail the performance of duties and functions which cannot be adequately performed by members of the other sex.

28. Subject to Article 251 any section of citizens having a distinct language, script or culture shall have the right to preserve and promote the same and subject to law, establish institutions for that purpose.

Re: # 306
Why are the first eight cluses of Chapter 1 not presented?

Urstruly#283:

That was a disappointing response. A part of honest dialogue involves accepting the facts of your interlocutors while not necessarily their opinions.

First of all, all those statements were not correct. Take, for example, the very first statement. There were, without doubt, massacres of Muslims in India, but there were equally horrible massacres in Pakistan. And while in India excluding what is now Pakistan, the percentage of Muslims is more or less the same as it was before the partition, can you say the same thing about Pakistan?

There were certainly parts of those statements, like the Kali sacrifices, that were correct. So would be some not-too-flattering ahadith and verses in the quran, but what would be the point of pointing them out to non-muslim children and fill them with hatred towards muslims?

Your advice to Hindus is welcome. God knows that the Hindu society can use all the advice it can get. The good news is that they are listening and doing something about it. For instance, when was the last time you heard about human sacrifice to Kali? And the last reported incident of Sati took place over a decade ago. Some Hindus could claim that even the Shudhi movement was a progress because it meant that one did not have to be born a Hindu to become one. The caste is still a curse but still they can point out to Dalit Chief Ministers, Presidents, Ministers, Secretaries, Judges and even top industialists. It is a work in progress but the Hindus have to travel a long distance before they can claim to be a progressive society.

tahmed32:
``As for dost mittar`s listing of grievances - he is right. But he is being no different than you - namely having fun pointing to pakistanis while ignoring the usual anti-pakistan and anti-muslim garbage written by indian posters on chowk.``

I leave that job to you:). I never accepted the job to be a chowk umpire and I am happy to be a mere player.
But your post is off-the-mark. Did I call Urstruly hateful? I only pointed out to the Pakistani Ministry of Education`s directive in the context of his post about what school children were taught in Geramany. If there are similar directives in India, please point them out and I would refer them to an Indian poster when I see them complain about hateful teachings. Anyway, what is there to point out, other than the fact that some of the Indian posters are full of hate towards Pakistan and Muslims, which I have done more than once? But that is the nature of chowk and the same is true of many Pakistanis, including yourself in recent years.

As for comparing me with Urstruly, I do not mind that comparison at all. He is not a hypocrite. I consider him to be an honourable and decent man whose humanity and kindness is defined by his own beliefs.

The crucial difference between India and Pakistan is that in India all Indians have equal right of vote, joint electorates and reservations to bring the historically backward people. In India there are constitutional and operative stipulations which have been upheld fifteen times in last 60 years, without military dictatorships and hanging of the prime ministers. One Constitution of India has directed the life of a billion Indians since its adoption. Indian Shias and Sunnis live in peace unlike in Pakistan, since they abide by that Constitution.

Pakistan has no rights for minorities and I challenge the informed Muslims in Chowk to summarize the relevant laws with appropriate references and quotations. Musharraf has been only able to dangle the carrots of joint electorate but has been effectively neutralized by the fanatic wings of Muslims. No quotations from Jinnah`s speech of 1947, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Majumdar..

I am a votary of the joint electorate because the minorities in Pakistan want a joint electorate. If they felt a separate electorate would better serve them I would be in favor of a separate electorate. Even so I am in favor of reserved seats plus joint electorates. Furthermore... Jinnah and Ambedkar both were in favor of the principle of joint electorate and Jinnah had actually opposed the separate electorates when they were first introduced.

But - as I understand it the untouchables demanded separate electorates and quotas as a necessary safeguard - just as Muslims etc had gotten it... and Gandhi opposed it using the same kind of blackmail as before. The idea of whether a multiethnic society works one way or the other is still up in the air.. consociationalism is still a widely practised situation world wide...

-YLH

tahmed...

I agree in entirety with your point of view expressed below.

For historical accuracy however the actual number of Hindus and Sikhs by any stretch was 3.8 million and the actual number... The Muslim number was around 5.5 million. Wikipedia is an edited encyclopedia anyone can edit and change.

What is important here is that the first complaint raised internationally about the horrible violence taking place was by the Pakistani Government in the UN Session of late 1947 ... whereas the Indian government declared that only ``minor disturbances`` had taken place.

Re 298

Gandhi opposed separate electorates for untouchables but accepted reservations. Maybe you are right about reservation not being the same as affirmative action aka separate electorates. But in a multiethnic society joint electorates are the only way of ensuring that parties try best to be accomodating rather than just represent sections. In fact I believe you have been a votary of joint electorates in Pakistan so I find this a bit puzzling.

Regards

that 18 million includes in #298 includes muslims who were similarly uprooted as well. That still means almost 10 million hindus and sikhs.