Where are the Questioning Minds?
Azra Rashid February 3, 2006
#113 Posted by arjun_m on February 6, 2006 7:26:24 am
#102 by bbabu on February 5, 2006 8:34pm PT
I think muslims need to realize that they DON`T have a right to not have their feelings hurt...
Before the Jyllands Posten published the old mo cartoons, I didn`t know if it was a danish publication or a romanian..
Now people are going to push the envelope even more..There`s going to be nastier stuff posted on the web..i`ve already seen some old`mo depictions that`ll make paki heads explode..
I think muslims need to realize that they DON`T have a right to not have their feelings hurt...
Before the Jyllands Posten published the old mo cartoons, I didn`t know if it was a danish publication or a romanian..
Now people are going to push the envelope even more..There`s going to be nastier stuff posted on the web..i`ve already seen some old`mo depictions that`ll make paki heads explode..
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#114 Posted by tahmed32 on February 6, 2006 8:25:14 am
arjun: time to take your pills. (while i have no doubt you would love to see paki heads explode, that isnt about to happen, you hindu nut).
#116 Posted by mohar11 on February 6, 2006 8:54:19 am
All I can say to the europeans is - ``Ab tera kya hoga re Kalia`` :))))......
Indians have been fighting these islamic fundamentalist forces [foreign and homegrown] for decades now - and during that, we heard all sorts of sermons from the french, the brits and other goody-two-shoes a$$holes..... Now let`s see how they handle it - now let`s see how they fight jihadis - how they reconcile millions of ``silent`` supporters of obscurantism into their secular and liberal societies...... One thing is clear - it ain`t going to be pretty.....
I still remember the days in 1999 - the IA plane hijack case.... While a bunch of indians were cowering under taliban guns in kandahar - the ``West`` was busy giving sermons after sermons......
Well - to repeat the immortal lines - ``Ab tera kya hoga re Kalia``??
Indians have been fighting these islamic fundamentalist forces [foreign and homegrown] for decades now - and during that, we heard all sorts of sermons from the french, the brits and other goody-two-shoes a$$holes..... Now let`s see how they handle it - now let`s see how they fight jihadis - how they reconcile millions of ``silent`` supporters of obscurantism into their secular and liberal societies...... One thing is clear - it ain`t going to be pretty.....
I still remember the days in 1999 - the IA plane hijack case.... While a bunch of indians were cowering under taliban guns in kandahar - the ``West`` was busy giving sermons after sermons......
Well - to repeat the immortal lines - ``Ab tera kya hoga re Kalia``??
#117 Posted by Inquirer on February 6, 2006 9:04:52 am
Re: # 6
``Why must Indians make it an issue of Pakistan vs India... ``
****In my #5, there is no reference to India vs. Pakistan.****
``She claims for example that Rabia Basri was a South Asian...``
****Where did she make that claim?****
``If sensible means to be ``ignorant`` then I am glad I am not according to you.``
****To ignore the basic injustice to women in Islam and Islamic world is not ignorance. It is a part of the strategy to keep them perpetually down. You are using your knowledge of history as a beating stick when you deliberately distort the clear aim of Azra and try to hang her what you imagine to be factual mistakes.****
``Why must Indians make it an issue of Pakistan vs India... ``
****In my #5, there is no reference to India vs. Pakistan.****
``She claims for example that Rabia Basri was a South Asian...``
****Where did she make that claim?****
``If sensible means to be ``ignorant`` then I am glad I am not according to you.``
****To ignore the basic injustice to women in Islam and Islamic world is not ignorance. It is a part of the strategy to keep them perpetually down. You are using your knowledge of history as a beating stick when you deliberately distort the clear aim of Azra and try to hang her what you imagine to be factual mistakes.****
#118 Posted by Urstruly on February 6, 2006 9:08:28 am
Re: # 105
``Instead of all this hot air and garbage, and pointing me in the direction of hyperlinks where I shall surely find the truth and light, WHY DON`T YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION AS POSED, for a change, eh? ``
Sure, that can be arranged as long as you are willing to listen. Lets start with the Chapter 9-Repentence from which you have taken a number of verses in your post and those are 9:123, 9:5; 9:23; 9:28; and 9:29. Since all these verses discuss the same subject matter we have to look at them in sequence, starting from 9:5. But first some background.
In the 13th year of his prophet-hood, the decade mired by torture and oppression of him, his family and companions, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) migrated to city of Medina. Some of his companions were already living in Medina and prepared a small group of Muslims there. The indigenous Medinites were already familiar with his name since Medina was his mother`s city but mostly they knew him as a trader who was known for honesty in all trade circles. There were two main tribes in Medina and several smaller tribes affiliated with either one of them. These tribes were in a bloody civil war for the past 120 years and they were sick and tired of bloodshed and wanted it to end. They also knew that there was no undisputed personality among them who could end that civil war and unite them so they looked outward. One name they agreed upon was that of Mohammad (pbuh) whose reputation was undisputed for honesty and justice. They offered him to come to Medina and take charge of the peace process. So Prophet migrated to Medina when Allah guided him so.
Upon his arrival in Medina he quickly set up a charter, which is famously called the Charter of Medina, which is the world`s first written constitution. The people of Medina and tribes in surrounding areas agreed to get into this social contract and first time in 120 years people of Medina saw the light of peace. The people of Medina and surrounding areas were a mixed breed. Among them were idolaters, animists, Jews, Christians, and people who used to worship fire, heavenly bodies, and what not. Under this charter all were given an equal citizenship and in the constitution they were termed as ``Ummah`` i.e. one nation.
In the next ten years of his Medinite life, Prophet continued his message of Islam amid several acts of aggression from Meccans and intrigue, deception, and outright acts of war from some people of Medina, who saw his message as threatening to their belief system. This intrigue and deception included assassination attempts and openly siding with Meccan enemies in open breach to the terms and condition of Charter. The largest of such breach was during the Battle of Trench that happened in the 8th year. In that war when Meccans gathered an army of 10,000 including the tribesmen from surrounding areas and Medinite Jews including those who were signatories of the charter. This was an extremely volatile situation and with hardly 2000 dedicated men on his disposal the Muslims were facing total extinction. A trench was dug around Medina and Meccans put the whole city under siege for 3 months. In the end they only dispersed after disease sprung in their ranks.
So this is the background when these verses were revealed. Lets see how these verses deal with the aftermath of the Battle of Trench.
9:1 (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
In this verse Allah is referring to the Charter of Medina and saying that since the idolaters (of surrounding Medina area) breached the Charter by siding with the enemy, therefore, Muslims are absolved from any contract with them too.
So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers
In this verse Allah directs Muslims to give those idolaters four months to make up their mind as to whether they want to go on an all out war, convert to being Muslims, or leave the area.
And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
Same subject as in 9:3 is further being discussed where a deadline is being set as that the four months will start from the Day of Pilgrimage (The Hajj)
9:4 Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
Now you see there is an exception clause as well. Those idolaters who stuck to the charter and did not side with the aggressors, were given full immunity. This is also the answer to your question, whether Islam guides Muslims to just attack and destroy any and all idolaters or is it referring to a particular band of people. You decide
And finally the 9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
So in this verse Qura`n further elaborates on the code of conduct when the deadline of four months passes. But even in this case there is no carte blanche for killing idolaters. It specifically says that even when they breached the contract but if they repent then they should be forgiven. In other words Qura`n is referring to those idolators who breached the contract of peace and not all idolators of this world.
So this is the gist of The Chapter 9-Repentence from which you quoted several verses and asked for explanation. I can go on explaining each and everyone of them but then this post would get too long. I hope now you can sleep easy that you are perfectly safe :)
``Instead of all this hot air and garbage, and pointing me in the direction of hyperlinks where I shall surely find the truth and light, WHY DON`T YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION AS POSED, for a change, eh? ``
Sure, that can be arranged as long as you are willing to listen. Lets start with the Chapter 9-Repentence from which you have taken a number of verses in your post and those are 9:123, 9:5; 9:23; 9:28; and 9:29. Since all these verses discuss the same subject matter we have to look at them in sequence, starting from 9:5. But first some background.
In the 13th year of his prophet-hood, the decade mired by torture and oppression of him, his family and companions, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) migrated to city of Medina. Some of his companions were already living in Medina and prepared a small group of Muslims there. The indigenous Medinites were already familiar with his name since Medina was his mother`s city but mostly they knew him as a trader who was known for honesty in all trade circles. There were two main tribes in Medina and several smaller tribes affiliated with either one of them. These tribes were in a bloody civil war for the past 120 years and they were sick and tired of bloodshed and wanted it to end. They also knew that there was no undisputed personality among them who could end that civil war and unite them so they looked outward. One name they agreed upon was that of Mohammad (pbuh) whose reputation was undisputed for honesty and justice. They offered him to come to Medina and take charge of the peace process. So Prophet migrated to Medina when Allah guided him so.
Upon his arrival in Medina he quickly set up a charter, which is famously called the Charter of Medina, which is the world`s first written constitution. The people of Medina and tribes in surrounding areas agreed to get into this social contract and first time in 120 years people of Medina saw the light of peace. The people of Medina and surrounding areas were a mixed breed. Among them were idolaters, animists, Jews, Christians, and people who used to worship fire, heavenly bodies, and what not. Under this charter all were given an equal citizenship and in the constitution they were termed as ``Ummah`` i.e. one nation.
In the next ten years of his Medinite life, Prophet continued his message of Islam amid several acts of aggression from Meccans and intrigue, deception, and outright acts of war from some people of Medina, who saw his message as threatening to their belief system. This intrigue and deception included assassination attempts and openly siding with Meccan enemies in open breach to the terms and condition of Charter. The largest of such breach was during the Battle of Trench that happened in the 8th year. In that war when Meccans gathered an army of 10,000 including the tribesmen from surrounding areas and Medinite Jews including those who were signatories of the charter. This was an extremely volatile situation and with hardly 2000 dedicated men on his disposal the Muslims were facing total extinction. A trench was dug around Medina and Meccans put the whole city under siege for 3 months. In the end they only dispersed after disease sprung in their ranks.
So this is the background when these verses were revealed. Lets see how these verses deal with the aftermath of the Battle of Trench.
9:1 (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
In this verse Allah is referring to the Charter of Medina and saying that since the idolaters (of surrounding Medina area) breached the Charter by siding with the enemy, therefore, Muslims are absolved from any contract with them too.
So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers
In this verse Allah directs Muslims to give those idolaters four months to make up their mind as to whether they want to go on an all out war, convert to being Muslims, or leave the area.
And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
Same subject as in 9:3 is further being discussed where a deadline is being set as that the four months will start from the Day of Pilgrimage (The Hajj)
9:4 Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
Now you see there is an exception clause as well. Those idolaters who stuck to the charter and did not side with the aggressors, were given full immunity. This is also the answer to your question, whether Islam guides Muslims to just attack and destroy any and all idolaters or is it referring to a particular band of people. You decide
And finally the 9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
So in this verse Qura`n further elaborates on the code of conduct when the deadline of four months passes. But even in this case there is no carte blanche for killing idolaters. It specifically says that even when they breached the contract but if they repent then they should be forgiven. In other words Qura`n is referring to those idolators who breached the contract of peace and not all idolators of this world.
So this is the gist of The Chapter 9-Repentence from which you quoted several verses and asked for explanation. I can go on explaining each and everyone of them but then this post would get too long. I hope now you can sleep easy that you are perfectly safe :)
#119 Posted by Inquirer on February 6, 2006 9:14:30 am
Re: # 7
``I do wish you to elaborate on that ``
****urstruly and you share the aim of keeping Muslim women down. He by his crudities, you by a diversionary attack on the historical content of her write-up even though you do not establish her mistakes.****
While there is no mistake in what you say in #7, it is irrelevant to issue at hand. The issue is that there is general repression of minorities and women in all Muslim countries including Pakistan which should have been ameliorated by the example of their Indian bretheren - treated of course as enemies.
``I do wish you to elaborate on that ``
****urstruly and you share the aim of keeping Muslim women down. He by his crudities, you by a diversionary attack on the historical content of her write-up even though you do not establish her mistakes.****
While there is no mistake in what you say in #7, it is irrelevant to issue at hand. The issue is that there is general repression of minorities and women in all Muslim countries including Pakistan which should have been ameliorated by the example of their Indian bretheren - treated of course as enemies.
#120 Posted by MantoLives on February 6, 2006 9:16:19 am
Dear Inquirer...
1- The reason you chose to interpret my post #5 as such is because of your latent Indian bias against me ... for you the idea of having a proud Pakistani who is also a liberal secularist and yet takes Indians to task for their self righteous bigotry is just too much - it causes a system malfunction .. therefore you must group me together with my worst enemy i.e. urstruly and his ilk.
2- So you didn`t even bother to read the article:
Looking back in history, prior to colonialism, the region of South Asia was marked by great Sufi saints. The Sufis not only bridged the gap between the Hindus and the Muslims in the region through love, tolerance and poetry, but they also practiced a very liberal version of Islam. They pushed the boundaries in pursuit of love and truth. Rabia Al-Basri was one such Sufi. It was the honesty and strength of her belief that allowed her to question the concept of afterlife and heaven and hell which supposedly directs a good Muslim onto the right and wrong paths of life. Rabia Al-Basri firmly believed in love of God for the sake of love and not out of fear. Rabia believed that God does not look upon outward forms of people
Rabia Basri never visited South Asia... You may read about Rabia Basri at: http://users.cjb.net/sufipath/rabia.html
3- I have spoken more consistently and clearly against misogyny and unequal treatment of women in the Islamic world... for this I have earned the wrath of Islamic fanatics. If an article has factual mistakes and they are so glaringly obvious they make all of us look bad.
I did not attempt to distort ``Azra`s aim`` which in any event is not clear.
The author of the article makes a fallacious point when she says that the British introduced Patriarchy... if anything the British rule brought dignity to women in India... and then she claims Muslims and Hindus followed laws on local customs... that is not true either... and British did not replace the laws that Muslims and Hindus follow (which is precisely the problem and not what she claims)... Azra is a Canadian... and quite clearly not very knowledgeable about her subject... there are many great writers and social activists in Pakistan who are doing great work promoting a secular liberal Pakistan.
1- The reason you chose to interpret my post #5 as such is because of your latent Indian bias against me ... for you the idea of having a proud Pakistani who is also a liberal secularist and yet takes Indians to task for their self righteous bigotry is just too much - it causes a system malfunction .. therefore you must group me together with my worst enemy i.e. urstruly and his ilk.
2- So you didn`t even bother to read the article:
Looking back in history, prior to colonialism, the region of South Asia was marked by great Sufi saints. The Sufis not only bridged the gap between the Hindus and the Muslims in the region through love, tolerance and poetry, but they also practiced a very liberal version of Islam. They pushed the boundaries in pursuit of love and truth. Rabia Al-Basri was one such Sufi. It was the honesty and strength of her belief that allowed her to question the concept of afterlife and heaven and hell which supposedly directs a good Muslim onto the right and wrong paths of life. Rabia Al-Basri firmly believed in love of God for the sake of love and not out of fear. Rabia believed that God does not look upon outward forms of people
Rabia Basri never visited South Asia... You may read about Rabia Basri at: http://users.cjb.net/sufipath/rabia.html
3- I have spoken more consistently and clearly against misogyny and unequal treatment of women in the Islamic world... for this I have earned the wrath of Islamic fanatics. If an article has factual mistakes and they are so glaringly obvious they make all of us look bad.
I did not attempt to distort ``Azra`s aim`` which in any event is not clear.
The author of the article makes a fallacious point when she says that the British introduced Patriarchy... if anything the British rule brought dignity to women in India... and then she claims Muslims and Hindus followed laws on local customs... that is not true either... and British did not replace the laws that Muslims and Hindus follow (which is precisely the problem and not what she claims)... Azra is a Canadian... and quite clearly not very knowledgeable about her subject... there are many great writers and social activists in Pakistan who are doing great work promoting a secular liberal Pakistan.
#121 Posted by MantoLives on February 6, 2006 9:23:02 am
Inquirer...
I aim to keep Muslim women down? Are you smoking hashish?
My wife is an active and outspoken activist for women`s rights in not just Pakistan and Muslim World... I personally support Benazir Bhutto... and I encourage her and support her in every endeavor. My mother was the first women EDO (a leading post) in Pakistan... I have supported women`s cricket teams and their inclusion in the Pakistan Air Force as fighter piloits....
I have over the years written several articles supporting women`s rights in Pakistan and the Muslim world...
One of my articles: Founding Mothers- aimed at promoting women`s political participation..
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%
20ave&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
My understanding is that you are an incredible liar for claiming something as disgusting as you did...
I aim to keep Muslim women down? Are you smoking hashish?
My wife is an active and outspoken activist for women`s rights in not just Pakistan and Muslim World... I personally support Benazir Bhutto... and I encourage her and support her in every endeavor. My mother was the first women EDO (a leading post) in Pakistan... I have supported women`s cricket teams and their inclusion in the Pakistan Air Force as fighter piloits....
I have over the years written several articles supporting women`s rights in Pakistan and the Muslim world...
One of my articles: Founding Mothers- aimed at promoting women`s political participation..
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%
20ave&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
My understanding is that you are an incredible liar for claiming something as disgusting as you did...
#122 Posted by MantoLives on February 6, 2006 9:47:04 am
Re: # 2
Inquirer writes about his wife:
``She may not share my interests in Physics, Philososphy, and Mathematics but we both consider each other equal in love!!!``
So while you don`t consider your wife your equal in Physics, Philosophy and Mathematics... I consider my wife my equal or even better than me in all fields ... In fact she shares my passion for writings, politics, history, and nationalism... which is why we are married...
And she will one day make a great Pakistani leader .... and I will be there supporting her all the way...
Inquirer writes about his wife:
``She may not share my interests in Physics, Philososphy, and Mathematics but we both consider each other equal in love!!!``
So while you don`t consider your wife your equal in Physics, Philosophy and Mathematics... I consider my wife my equal or even better than me in all fields ... In fact she shares my passion for writings, politics, history, and nationalism... which is why we are married...
And she will one day make a great Pakistani leader .... and I will be there supporting her all the way...
#123 Posted by MantoLives on February 6, 2006 9:47:46 am
Re: # 119
#121 by Mantolives on February 6, 2006 9:23am PT
Inquirer...
I aim to keep Muslim women down? Are you smoking hashish?
My wife is an active and outspoken activist for women`s rights in not just Pakistan and Muslim World... I personally support Benazir Bhutto... and I encourage her and support her in every endeavor. My mother was the first women EDO (a leading post) in Pakistan... I have supported women`s cricket teams and their inclusion in the Pakistan Air Force as fighter piloits....
I have over the years written several articles supporting women`s rights in Pakistan and the Muslim world...
One of my articles: Founding Mothers- aimed at promoting women`s political participation..
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%
20ave&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
My understanding is that you are an incredible liar for claiming something as disgusting as you did...
[Reply to interact #121]
#120 by Mantolives on February 6, 2006 9:16am PT
Dear Inquirer...
1- The reason you chose to interpret my post #5 as such is because of your latent Indian bias against me ... for you the idea of having a proud Pakistani who is also a liberal secularist and yet takes Indians to task for their self righteous bigotry is just too much - it causes a system malfunction .. therefore you must group me together with my worst enemy i.e. urstruly and his ilk.
2- So you didn`t even bother to read the article:
Looking back in history, prior to colonialism, the region of South Asia was marked by great Sufi saints. The Sufis not only bridged the gap between the Hindus and the Muslims in the region through love, tolerance and poetry, but they also practiced a very liberal version of Islam. They pushed the boundaries in pursuit of love and truth. Rabia Al-Basri was one such Sufi. It was the honesty and strength of her belief that allowed her to question the concept of afterlife and heaven and hell which supposedly directs a good Muslim onto the right and wrong paths of life. Rabia Al-Basri firmly believed in love of God for the sake of love and not out of fear. Rabia believed that God does not look upon outward forms of people
Rabia Basri never visited South Asia... You may read about Rabia Basri at: http://users.cjb.net/sufipath/rabia.html
3- I have spoken more consistently and clearly against misogyny and unequal treatment of women in the Islamic world... for this I have earned the wrath of Islamic fanatics. If an article has factual mistakes and they are so glaringly obvious they make all of us look bad.
I did not attempt to distort ``Azra`s aim`` which in any event is not clear.
The author of the article makes a fallacious point when she says that the British introduced Patriarchy... if anything the British rule brought dignity to women in India... and then she claims Muslims and Hindus followed laws on local customs... that is not true either... and British did not replace the laws that Muslims and Hindus follow (which is precisely the problem and not what she claims)... Azra is a Canadian... and quite clearly not very knowledgeable about her subject... there are many great writers and social activists in Pakistan who are doing great work promoting a secular liberal Pakistan.
[Reply to interact #120]
#121 by Mantolives on February 6, 2006 9:23am PT
Inquirer...
I aim to keep Muslim women down? Are you smoking hashish?
My wife is an active and outspoken activist for women`s rights in not just Pakistan and Muslim World... I personally support Benazir Bhutto... and I encourage her and support her in every endeavor. My mother was the first women EDO (a leading post) in Pakistan... I have supported women`s cricket teams and their inclusion in the Pakistan Air Force as fighter piloits....
I have over the years written several articles supporting women`s rights in Pakistan and the Muslim world...
One of my articles: Founding Mothers- aimed at promoting women`s political participation..
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002822&channel=university%
20ave&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
My understanding is that you are an incredible liar for claiming something as disgusting as you did...
[Reply to interact #121]
#120 by Mantolives on February 6, 2006 9:16am PT
Dear Inquirer...
1- The reason you chose to interpret my post #5 as such is because of your latent Indian bias against me ... for you the idea of having a proud Pakistani who is also a liberal secularist and yet takes Indians to task for their self righteous bigotry is just too much - it causes a system malfunction .. therefore you must group me together with my worst enemy i.e. urstruly and his ilk.
2- So you didn`t even bother to read the article:
Looking back in history, prior to colonialism, the region of South Asia was marked by great Sufi saints. The Sufis not only bridged the gap between the Hindus and the Muslims in the region through love, tolerance and poetry, but they also practiced a very liberal version of Islam. They pushed the boundaries in pursuit of love and truth. Rabia Al-Basri was one such Sufi. It was the honesty and strength of her belief that allowed her to question the concept of afterlife and heaven and hell which supposedly directs a good Muslim onto the right and wrong paths of life. Rabia Al-Basri firmly believed in love of God for the sake of love and not out of fear. Rabia believed that God does not look upon outward forms of people
Rabia Basri never visited South Asia... You may read about Rabia Basri at: http://users.cjb.net/sufipath/rabia.html
3- I have spoken more consistently and clearly against misogyny and unequal treatment of women in the Islamic world... for this I have earned the wrath of Islamic fanatics. If an article has factual mistakes and they are so glaringly obvious they make all of us look bad.
I did not attempt to distort ``Azra`s aim`` which in any event is not clear.
The author of the article makes a fallacious point when she says that the British introduced Patriarchy... if anything the British rule brought dignity to women in India... and then she claims Muslims and Hindus followed laws on local customs... that is not true either... and British did not replace the laws that Muslims and Hindus follow (which is precisely the problem and not what she claims)... Azra is a Canadian... and quite clearly not very knowledgeable about her subject... there are many great writers and social activists in Pakistan who are doing great work promoting a secular liberal Pakistan.
[Reply to interact #120]
#124 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on February 6, 2006 9:57:14 am
Re: # 2
ylh,
Leave this Hindu freak alone. Like Gandhi, he believes women can`t excel at anything but being a housewife...So he thinks his wife can`t be his equal in Physics or Mathematics.
ylh,
Leave this Hindu freak alone. Like Gandhi, he believes women can`t excel at anything but being a housewife...So he thinks his wife can`t be his equal in Physics or Mathematics.
#125 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on February 6, 2006 11:00:41 am
Azra,
Thank you for sharing your views about this gross violation of individual rights by the so-called scholars of God`s word. ``Maulana Dr. Israr Ahmed`` did make a brief visit to Chowk UP and I found him to be the filthiest of interactors with a mouth so profane that it had to be Atif2 masquerading as the evil bearded know-it-all.
I can see how you can reach the conclusion that the poor women of Pakistan are at the bottom of the unquestioned totem pole. This lack of independent thinking is the undoing of our entire society, religion, and. It persecutes men as well as women and is probably the root cause of our sorry state in today`s advancing world. Now that we have identified the problem, I look to the educated and civilized interactors of Chowk to correct the problem. Judging by the extreme intolerance expressed by many Paki Chowkies, please don`t hold your breath for any rapid rectifications.
Thank you for sharing your views about this gross violation of individual rights by the so-called scholars of God`s word. ``Maulana Dr. Israr Ahmed`` did make a brief visit to Chowk UP and I found him to be the filthiest of interactors with a mouth so profane that it had to be Atif2 masquerading as the evil bearded know-it-all.
I can see how you can reach the conclusion that the poor women of Pakistan are at the bottom of the unquestioned totem pole. This lack of independent thinking is the undoing of our entire society, religion, and. It persecutes men as well as women and is probably the root cause of our sorry state in today`s advancing world. Now that we have identified the problem, I look to the educated and civilized interactors of Chowk to correct the problem. Judging by the extreme intolerance expressed by many Paki Chowkies, please don`t hold your breath for any rapid rectifications.
#126 Posted by Ramanujan on February 6, 2006 11:55:34 am
Re: #118 by Urstruly
The quotation you are trying to rationalize is not the one that I picked for you to justify in #90. The one I picked was the following:
[9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior ]
It`s interesting, is it not, that you chose to pick the one you wanted?
But anyway, coming back to your rationalization. The historical reality, of course, is that Muhammad was the aggressor in this whole scenario, but that does not matter. Fanatics like you will never listen to what history has to say.
ALL THROUGH HISTORY, BLOODTHIRSTY PEOPLE HAVE JUSTIFIED THEIR KILLING OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS BEING DIVINELY SANCTIONED. BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS PEOPLE USED TO BUY THAT CRAP. AND EVEN TODAY - IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. IN THIS UNIVERSE OF A GAZILLION GALAXIES, APPARENTLY GOD IS BUSY ARRANGING THINGS LIKE WHAT ``POOR RATE`` SOME UNFORTUNATE PEOPLE SHOULD BE PAYING! IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE MAD PEOPLE SEE LOGIC.
BUT ANYWAY, WHETHER HE WAS THE AGGRESSOR OR NOT WAS IRRELEVENT.
Justifying killing people ``wherever you can find them`` is not the same as killing them in a battle. And why would they have to pay a ``poor-rate``? Eh?
Or else what?
Lose their Dhimmi-status and sink to an even lower status? And what would that status be?
How different is this hateful approach from that of Jesus Christ, who asked god to forgive his enemies, because they did not know what they were doing?
[ I hope now you can sleep easy that you are perfectly safe :) ]
I am not worried about Muslims as one would be against someone strong and fights a honorable war. In a face-to-face fight, with no low-down deception, they are likely to lose most always. My fear is more like the fear of a scorpion, or a snake that hides and bites the unsuspecting person.
Don`t worry about us idolators and non-believers. You Muslims should worry about your own safety first. If you haven`t noticed, it is Muslims who have been losing every battle against pretty much everybody for the longest time.
The only time they win is when they ambush unsuspecting people. Which had been Muhammad`s modus operandi as well. All 67 out of 68 wars of Muhammad were offensive. They were called qazwah (raid, ambush or sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no warning. The one defensive war, `ditch` was not fought. That is why the Islamic terrorism `jihad` will continue until the West ``offers peace``. This was made clear by Bin Laden.
For example, here`s a tranlation of of Sahih Bukhari, Book 46:
[Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:
Narrated Ibn Aun:
I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn `Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn `Umar was in that army. ]
Muslims are losing wars everywhere.
Ask Allah to step in and do something.
:-)
And guess what, you STILL haven`t answered my original question, about why it is okay for Muslims to say bad things about people of other religions, but other people cannot even draw a cartoon of Muhammad in jest.
[The worst beasts in Allah`s sight are the disbelievers. 55]
[Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 73 ]
[Don`t pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 113 ]
[Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 123]
The quotation you are trying to rationalize is not the one that I picked for you to justify in #90. The one I picked was the following:
[9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior ]
It`s interesting, is it not, that you chose to pick the one you wanted?
But anyway, coming back to your rationalization. The historical reality, of course, is that Muhammad was the aggressor in this whole scenario, but that does not matter. Fanatics like you will never listen to what history has to say.
ALL THROUGH HISTORY, BLOODTHIRSTY PEOPLE HAVE JUSTIFIED THEIR KILLING OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS BEING DIVINELY SANCTIONED. BECAUSE IN THOSE DAYS PEOPLE USED TO BUY THAT CRAP. AND EVEN TODAY - IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES. IN THIS UNIVERSE OF A GAZILLION GALAXIES, APPARENTLY GOD IS BUSY ARRANGING THINGS LIKE WHAT ``POOR RATE`` SOME UNFORTUNATE PEOPLE SHOULD BE PAYING! IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE MAD PEOPLE SEE LOGIC.
BUT ANYWAY, WHETHER HE WAS THE AGGRESSOR OR NOT WAS IRRELEVENT.
Justifying killing people ``wherever you can find them`` is not the same as killing them in a battle. And why would they have to pay a ``poor-rate``? Eh?
Or else what?
Lose their Dhimmi-status and sink to an even lower status? And what would that status be?
How different is this hateful approach from that of Jesus Christ, who asked god to forgive his enemies, because they did not know what they were doing?
[ I hope now you can sleep easy that you are perfectly safe :) ]
I am not worried about Muslims as one would be against someone strong and fights a honorable war. In a face-to-face fight, with no low-down deception, they are likely to lose most always. My fear is more like the fear of a scorpion, or a snake that hides and bites the unsuspecting person.
Don`t worry about us idolators and non-believers. You Muslims should worry about your own safety first. If you haven`t noticed, it is Muslims who have been losing every battle against pretty much everybody for the longest time.
The only time they win is when they ambush unsuspecting people. Which had been Muhammad`s modus operandi as well. All 67 out of 68 wars of Muhammad were offensive. They were called qazwah (raid, ambush or sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no warning. The one defensive war, `ditch` was not fought. That is why the Islamic terrorism `jihad` will continue until the West ``offers peace``. This was made clear by Bin Laden.
For example, here`s a tranlation of of Sahih Bukhari, Book 46:
[Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:
Narrated Ibn Aun:
I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn `Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn `Umar was in that army. ]
Muslims are losing wars everywhere.
Ask Allah to step in and do something.
:-)
And guess what, you STILL haven`t answered my original question, about why it is okay for Muslims to say bad things about people of other religions, but other people cannot even draw a cartoon of Muhammad in jest.
[The worst beasts in Allah`s sight are the disbelievers. 55]
[Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 73 ]
[Don`t pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 113 ]
[Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 123]
#127 Posted by Netizen on February 6, 2006 11:59:48 am
Re: # 124
aisha
``Like Gandhi, he believes women can`t excel at anything but being a housewife...``
you guys are really shameless......
will drag gandhi in every irrelevant topics.
``So he thinks his wife can`t be his equal in Physics or Mathematics. ```
he said his wife is dis-interested not inferior to him. if my girlfriend also doesn`t share my interest in football, does that mean i consider her inferior to me in football ?????
aisha
``Like Gandhi, he believes women can`t excel at anything but being a housewife...``
you guys are really shameless......
will drag gandhi in every irrelevant topics.
``So he thinks his wife can`t be his equal in Physics or Mathematics. ```
he said his wife is dis-interested not inferior to him. if my girlfriend also doesn`t share my interest in football, does that mean i consider her inferior to me in football ?????
#128 Posted by Netizen on February 6, 2006 12:00:59 pm
Re: # 125
salim bey:
did you get my reply on the other board.
salim bey:
did you get my reply on the other board.
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