Where are the Questioning Minds?

Re: various by Urstruly and other Islamists

In the Quran, there are too many words of hatred towards people of other faiths and too few good words.

The thing about Muhammad, his words and his deeds is that you can give the benefit of doubt only so many times. Starting from his wanting to marry a 6-year old child, to his having sex with MANY slaves captured in war, to his killing MANY men, women and children, to his statements about people of other faith, it is too much to expect humanity to give him the benefit of doubt to justify each and every case.

In any court of law, he would be convicted hands down a thousand times over.

I`m sorry, you`ll have to try to sell that bridge elsewhere.

Re: # 126

``The quotation you are trying to rationalize is not the one that I picked for you to justify in #90. The one I picked was the following:

[9: 29 Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior ] ``

No problem. I can get to 9:29 too. The complete verse 9:29 is as follows:

9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

This verse is in the continuation of the subject matter and background that we discussed earlier from Chapter 9-Repentance. Here Allah is guiding Holy prophet (pbuh) against a a particular set of people. These people are Jews and Christians i.e. people of the Book but not all Jews and Christians but only those among them who qualify four conditions:

- Do not believe in Allah
- Do not beleive in the Day of Final judgement
- and do not observe prohibitions (imposed upon them by God thru their books)
- do not follow the religion of truth

The four attributes that are listed above are in clear defiance of what the Bible and Torah taught Christians and Jews. These are the impositions that are consistent with Qura`n and still exist in their books even after all the changes that they have made in their books. For example, Christians very late in Christianity introduced the concepts like Holy Trinity (virtually three gods) and they made Jesus (pbuh) as the son of God. Similarly, Jews started calling Ezra (pbuh) as son of God; when the message of God in their books is that God is above human attributes like having children etc. Similarly certain sects of Jews do not beleive in the Day of Final judgement; Jews also started collecting usury which is specifically forbidden in their books. Jesus Christ (pbuh) also taught them not to collect usury and Christians loyally obeyed this command for the next thousand years. The fourth attributes refers to the `true religion` Islam which was the religion of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) and all the Prophets that came throughout the history. Islam considers both Jews and Christians as early Muslims. They are only two surviving ancient Muslim nations. A good part of Qura`n addresses those beliefs that have crept into their religion through themselves or due to the compulsion of time. It is not that Jews and Christians are unaware of these changes to their original text, they know it very well. Hence their resistance was only due to their stubborness and not due to any conviction.

So a question is why Islam did not leave them alone - to us our belief and to them theirs. I explain it through an example. Lets assume that New York city today announces that from now on all rides in the subway system are free, however, there is a $2.00 purely voluntary tickect if anyone wishes to buy. You can gues that no one will buy the ticket. Similarly, when Islam came it made very clear to Jews and Christians that this message was nothing new. It was only a reform movement within their religions that was promised to them in their books. So when all evidence and arguments were made and done with, Islam divided Jews and christians into two groups. One group was that who still believed in Oneness of God, belived in the Day of Final Judgement, refrained from the prohibitions, in other words these were the jews and christians who beileved in the true essence of their religion. They were exempt from any persecution. However, those among them who clearly defied the above mentioned four attributes, they were given two choices:

1. Either pay a special tax and keep whatever they beleieve in.

2. Or they would have to get ready for a war.

In other words, in a state only one of the competing ideologies can survive. Jews and Christians had their chance which they used best in their capacity to make Islam extinct. In the end only the strongest ideology survived.

Re: # 120
I am disappointed at the perfunctoriness of your response. Please note carefully:
(a) ``1- The reason you chose to interpret my post #5 as such is because of your latent Indian bias against me``
****#5 entry is not yours it is mine. Besides your related statement is totally unfounded.
As a matter of fact my record in Chowk Has been one of mutual respect between Hindus and Muslims though I persist in unity of South Asians.****

(b) ``2- So you didn`t even bother to read the article:``
**** in your quotation of the article there is no statement that Rabia Basri was a South Asian but you persist in saying that she did say that.****

(c) ``3- I have spoken more consistently and clearly against misogyny and unequal treatment of women in the Islamic world... for this I have earned the wrath of Islamic fanatics. If an article has factual mistakes and they are so glaringly obvious they make all of us look bad. I did not attempt to distort ``Azra`s aim`` which in any event is not clear. ``
****You may have. But in this interaction you have not come across as such. Furthermore, you have not quoted her text with errors. I have asked you to do so but you have simply dodged/failed to do. To me the aim is abundantly clear: it is two fold; firstly Islamics have systematically discouraged open mindedness about religious issues, secondly, women are systematically put down in Islam and among the followers of Islam. You, of course, turn a blind eye towards it.****

RE: Urstruly:
``Jews started calling Ezra (pbuh) as son of God; ``

That is actually an incorrect statement in Quran that you were referring to. Quran should have said, Jews who came into contact with Mohammad were believers of Ezra son of God. :-) Mainstream judaism has no such concept.


By the way, the picture you posted in #65 was painful to look at but at the same time it was beautiful. thanks for posting.

Re: # 122
Share does not mean equal, less or more!! Please understand the terms properly. ``Share interest`` means ``like.`` Why do the husband and wife have to like same intellectual endeavors?!!!!!

After this I will not respond to lack of understanding of words. Concepts yes, but not the definitions of words, no.

Further to : # 130

One clarification I needed to add while explaining the four attributes in my post # 130 which says:

- Do not believe in Allah

This statement should not be taken to mean that those Jews and Christians are being addressed in that verse who did not beleive in the Muslim God ``Allah``. Please keep in mind that all Arabic speaking Christians, Jews, and Muslims use the same word ``Allah`` to refer to God. The word ``Allah`` is the Arabic equivalent of word ``God`` in English. So in essence Muslims, Jews, and Christains belive in One and same God.

Re#127 Netizen:
i think it is perfectly okay for anyone to drag Gandhi - he didnot threaten anyone with eternal damnation. the absurdity will play itself out the more we hear about the negative attributes of gandhi with noone responding with threats of death and decay in afterlife.

Re: # 127
Yes, people need to learn enough English to consistently communicate. Thanks for understanding. With Mantolives, Aisha and so many others` comments , I began to think that there is a Chowk English!!

Re: # 132

I absolutely agree with your clarification. That was what I was trying to convey in my post that 9:29 only addresses the deviant sects in Judaism and Christianity, whereas sects also exist with in both religions whose belifs are consistent with Islam.

Urstruly:
Then, we can safely assume that Quranic statements about stray jews and christians - that makeup for the 98% of the followers of these religions (like they dont consider Mohammad prophet) - as posted by Ajeya are legitimate calls for confrontation?

Re: # 134
I have not followed Netizen and your interaction but I would like to further develop your paragraph. The source of unity of all religions is the shared belief that some thing is higher than one`s ego. It is this belief in supra-ego that creates the melieu for religious states. If you read Shaikh Mohammad`s comparative analysis of Tasavvuf and Upanishads you will get an inkling of the psycho-philsophical undertones of all religions.

#130 by Urstruly on February 6, 2006 1:17pm PT


They were exempt from any persecution.


Damn...Islam IS a religion of peace..



1. Either pay a special tax and keep whatever they beleieve in.


so muslims were the origina dems..they`ll let you live if you pay taxes through your nose..

how does the tax system work? fair tax? flat tax? progressive tax?

Re: # 138

where did you get the 98% figure and what do you mean by confrontation. I think 9:29 is very clear about the nature of confrontation. In an Islamic state a ``deviant`` Jew or Christian have full freedom to practice his beliefs, collect usury, preacing their beliefs to non-Muslims and imbibing alcohol etc. as long as he is paying the Jaziya tax. Refusal to pay Jaziya and keep practicing and preaching their beliefs would result in state prosecution. Those Jews and Christian sects who adhere to the word in their Books are exempt from Jaziya tax. They also can have legislative autonomy in their jurisprudence to handle their cases according to their own laws. This is not some idealistic talk. This system was in practice in Muslim lands for 1300 years until Ottoman Caliphate collapsed in last century. This system in Ottoman Calipahe was called ``Millet System``

Re: Urstruly:

98% was totally a random number given that i was not aware of any sect of judaism or christianity that existed today and practiced what Mohammad had thought was original religion of the God given to them.

Could you name any denomination or a sect or a bunch of people that fit the criterion today? Thanks in advance.

Re: # 140

Its a flat tax. Its yearly value equals to the the amount spent on food in five days per one human being. Tax is only applicable to adult males. In other words it is only a token tax. In US, for eaxmple, government has estimated around $16 per day as a food alloawance per person. So if a Jaziya tax was imposed here, it would have been $90/year/adult male. Not a bad deal for all the debauchery and imbibing that you are allowed to do in return.

Re: # 142

I will plead ignorance in this regard since I am not familiar with all Christian and Jewish sects and their beleif system. However, Qura`n refers to one Christian sect who call themselves Sabiens as the one who are on the righteous path. Sabiens are Arab orthodox christians who live in the areas of presnt day Iraq. I also heard that Mormons- a christian sect is strictly a monotheist sect and do not belive in Holy Trinity. Most of the Jews still are strictly monotheists.