Dilemma of Mixed Unions
Mohammad Gill January 25, 2006
#67 Posted by freethinker on January 31, 2006 5:18:06 pm
bjkumar:
You`re welcome. Thanks for your interest in the article. Be well,
Mohammad Gill
You`re welcome. Thanks for your interest in the article. Be well,
Mohammad Gill
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#66 Posted by bjkumar on January 31, 2006 4:16:57 pm
Thank you, Dr. Gill, for the clarification. I have truly enjoyed all of your articles that I have read so far and have also appreciated your intents in writing those. I hope you have not read too much in the apparent harshness of some interactors! :)
Sincerely,
B. J. Kumar
#65 Posted by freethinker on January 31, 2006 11:48:17 am
bjkumar:
Your assertion ``In most cases, perhaps, the children would end up growing agnostics......`` although tentative may not be accurate. Human beings are very strange and unpredictable creatures. A person bred and brought up in a liberal family may become a fundamentalist for his/her own reasons, and vice-versa.
A mixed union in which there is no prior discussion or mutual understanding about personal conflicting values is likely to fall on rocks. This was the essence of my article.
Mohammad Gill
Your assertion ``In most cases, perhaps, the children would end up growing agnostics......`` although tentative may not be accurate. Human beings are very strange and unpredictable creatures. A person bred and brought up in a liberal family may become a fundamentalist for his/her own reasons, and vice-versa.
A mixed union in which there is no prior discussion or mutual understanding about personal conflicting values is likely to fall on rocks. This was the essence of my article.
Mohammad Gill
#64 Posted by bjkumar on January 31, 2006 9:18:58 am
Dr. Gill, this is an interesting article. I think it would have been better if you had clearly separated your own opinions from the main body.
In most cases, perhaps the children would end up growing agnostics – if the marriage does not break down first – which could happen if neither party is the compromising kind – in which case perhaps they should have seen it coming.
Are there statistics available on such intermarriage rates for desis?
#63 Posted by bbabu on January 30, 2006 11:39:44 pm
freethinker #57
`` I have four children and all of them were born in Nigeria where I worked before coming to the US. We had domsetic help there; their (children`s) nanny(ies) spoke mostly Hausa (their native tongue) and `pidgin` English. The stewards spoke `pidgin` English. The kids went to English schools. At school, they spoke English. They had Pakistani nationality. At home, my wife and I spoke Urdu and Punjabi.
When we came to the US, they were exposed to the white culture. (They were already familiar with the black culture; white culture was not new to them because some of their teachers in Nigeria were white but they had not lived into it before coming to the US). Many a time I thought and worried that they were handicapped, in a way, because they were exposed to two/three different cultures at young age, I thought they might have had some difficulty of adjustment.
Now they are all grown ups. Yesterday, I asked my daughter if she had any problem of cultural adjustment. She said, ``None that is worth-mentioning.`` She also said that the Pakistani kids in Pakistan are more Americanized than the Pakistani kids living in the US. One of her cousins said to her when she went for a short visit to Pakistan that she (my daughter) was a ``Paindoo`` even though she was living in America.
I can not generalize this example. The kids who are living in two or more cultures at the same time may be sometime confued as to where they belong. Such cultural issues need to be researched. I will not be surprised if some graduate students are writing research dissertations on them.
Mohammad Gill ``
I have meet Indians who are more culturally conservative than counterparts who have stayed in India
`` I have four children and all of them were born in Nigeria where I worked before coming to the US. We had domsetic help there; their (children`s) nanny(ies) spoke mostly Hausa (their native tongue) and `pidgin` English. The stewards spoke `pidgin` English. The kids went to English schools. At school, they spoke English. They had Pakistani nationality. At home, my wife and I spoke Urdu and Punjabi.
When we came to the US, they were exposed to the white culture. (They were already familiar with the black culture; white culture was not new to them because some of their teachers in Nigeria were white but they had not lived into it before coming to the US). Many a time I thought and worried that they were handicapped, in a way, because they were exposed to two/three different cultures at young age, I thought they might have had some difficulty of adjustment.
Now they are all grown ups. Yesterday, I asked my daughter if she had any problem of cultural adjustment. She said, ``None that is worth-mentioning.`` She also said that the Pakistani kids in Pakistan are more Americanized than the Pakistani kids living in the US. One of her cousins said to her when she went for a short visit to Pakistan that she (my daughter) was a ``Paindoo`` even though she was living in America.
I can not generalize this example. The kids who are living in two or more cultures at the same time may be sometime confued as to where they belong. Such cultural issues need to be researched. I will not be surprised if some graduate students are writing research dissertations on them.
Mohammad Gill ``
I have meet Indians who are more culturally conservative than counterparts who have stayed in India
#62 Posted by ZahraJ on January 30, 2006 4:18:07 pm
Re: # 61
Sattar,
Thank you for sharing some bits and pieces of your adventurous life. I am sure Raw Dust is making notes to get some ideas for the requested write-up. Did Mrs. Sattar get another traffic ticket today? Please advise her to take a defensive driving course.
Sattar,
Thank you for sharing some bits and pieces of your adventurous life. I am sure Raw Dust is making notes to get some ideas for the requested write-up. Did Mrs. Sattar get another traffic ticket today? Please advise her to take a defensive driving course.
#61 Posted by sattar2 on January 30, 2006 10:16:23 am
Zahra (#44):
… and if you think I need help, you have a lot in common with my relations. I think it goes back to my bachelor days when I showed up at an eid get together with a date who was good 15 years older than me … one of us was fucking high, and for the life of me I can’t remember which one. Apparently the evening turned out to be a disaster for the hosts and aunts with young daughters … although the cousins thought it was a riot. My relatives claim to have forgiven me … but the look in their eyes to this day tells me otherwise …
… I was losing social graces faster than was acceptable to me even. Perversions … sexual, social, and otherwise … were starting to feel quite normal. Morality and sanity, I figured, are purely contextual issues. What’s next? ... I`d wonder ... showing up at a party with an overpriced hooker? And why not?? This steady decline into debauchery had to be stopped ... before any efforts could be mounted to reverse its effects. I needed to put some parameters around my lifestyle in order to maintain semblance of civility. Surely it was time to get married …
… In most circles being a bachelor till the age 30 is considered quite fashionable … after which it starts to becomes a liability of sorts. And I now understand why. Although if one makes it to 40 without getting married, he becomes envy of the town. Men smile meaningfully when greeting you at parties … and women trapped in sexless marriages want to be seated next to you at the dinner table … but that’s another story …
… but what’s this deal with you wanting to interview guys? ... what the hell for? There’s nothing that complicated or worth looking for. We remain a lost cause … even god had to kick us out … and he tried to explain himself by cooking up the serpent story while blaming the poor woman to save face … and even after several revisions, no part of this story makes any sense. So what gives ... ???
#60 Posted by freethinker on January 30, 2006 6:32:10 am
Saminashah:
You quoted from my post in which I said I don`t want to generalize from my own experience, Yet you, along with others, seem to accuse me of overgeneralization. You suggested I should read ``these writers.`` You didn`t give me any names; which authors you`re suggesting? I know the younger generation is doing fine living in multiculturaism. Human beings are very adaptable; they adjust to whatever circumstances they live in. We learn from one another`s experiences and make suitable adjustments in our own lives.
Mohammad Gill
You quoted from my post in which I said I don`t want to generalize from my own experience, Yet you, along with others, seem to accuse me of overgeneralization. You suggested I should read ``these writers.`` You didn`t give me any names; which authors you`re suggesting? I know the younger generation is doing fine living in multiculturaism. Human beings are very adaptable; they adjust to whatever circumstances they live in. We learn from one another`s experiences and make suitable adjustments in our own lives.
Mohammad Gill
#59 Posted by Saminasha on January 30, 2006 5:00:32 am
Gill Sahib,
``I can not generalize this example.``
And yet many have commented on how overgeneralized many of the claims of this piece are. Your generation seems to have a hard time understanding how adeptly second and third generation South Asian Americans negotiate several cultures-in a much more complex and sophisticated way than you have language for. Why don`t you read some of the work of these writers?
``I can not generalize this example.``
And yet many have commented on how overgeneralized many of the claims of this piece are. Your generation seems to have a hard time understanding how adeptly second and third generation South Asian Americans negotiate several cultures-in a much more complex and sophisticated way than you have language for. Why don`t you read some of the work of these writers?
#58 Posted by ZahraJ on January 29, 2006 3:00:31 pm
Re: # 55
Raw_Dust:
I am sure the audience would love to read an article by you on the shenanigans and insecurities of the rough ones. Don`t be hesitant to take a leap :)
Raw_Dust:
I am sure the audience would love to read an article by you on the shenanigans and insecurities of the rough ones. Don`t be hesitant to take a leap :)
#57 Posted by freethinker on January 29, 2006 2:40:46 pm
Saminashah:
I have four children and all of them were born in Nigeria where I worked before coming to the US. We had domsetic help there; their (children`s) nanny(ies) spoke mostly Hausa (their native tongue) and `pidgin` English. The stewards spoke `pidgin` English. The kids went to English schools. At school, they spoke English. They had Pakistani nationality. At home, my wife and I spoke Urdu and Punjabi.
When we came to the US, they were exposed to the white culture. (They were already familiar with the black culture; white culture was not new to them because some of their teachers in Nigeria were white but they had not lived into it before coming to the US). Many a time I thought and worried that they were handicapped, in a way, because they were exposed to two/three different cultures at young age, I thought they might have had some difficulty of adjustment.
Now they are all grown ups. Yesterday, I asked my daughter if she had any problem of cultural adjustment. She said, ``None that is worth-mentioning.`` She also said that the Pakistani kids in Pakistan are more Americanized than the Pakistani kids living in the US. One of her cousins said to her when she went for a short visit to Pakistan that she (my daughter) was a ``Paindoo`` even though she was living in America.
I can not generalize this example. The kids who are living in two or more cultures at the same time may be sometime confued as to where they belong. Such cultural issues need to be researched. I will not be surprised if some graduate students are writing research dissertations on them.
Mohammad Gill
I have four children and all of them were born in Nigeria where I worked before coming to the US. We had domsetic help there; their (children`s) nanny(ies) spoke mostly Hausa (their native tongue) and `pidgin` English. The stewards spoke `pidgin` English. The kids went to English schools. At school, they spoke English. They had Pakistani nationality. At home, my wife and I spoke Urdu and Punjabi.
When we came to the US, they were exposed to the white culture. (They were already familiar with the black culture; white culture was not new to them because some of their teachers in Nigeria were white but they had not lived into it before coming to the US). Many a time I thought and worried that they were handicapped, in a way, because they were exposed to two/three different cultures at young age, I thought they might have had some difficulty of adjustment.
Now they are all grown ups. Yesterday, I asked my daughter if she had any problem of cultural adjustment. She said, ``None that is worth-mentioning.`` She also said that the Pakistani kids in Pakistan are more Americanized than the Pakistani kids living in the US. One of her cousins said to her when she went for a short visit to Pakistan that she (my daughter) was a ``Paindoo`` even though she was living in America.
I can not generalize this example. The kids who are living in two or more cultures at the same time may be sometime confued as to where they belong. Such cultural issues need to be researched. I will not be surprised if some graduate students are writing research dissertations on them.
Mohammad Gill
#56 Posted by Saminasha on January 29, 2006 1:47:39 pm
Gill Sahib,
Any comments on the study focusing on the dillemma Asian children of ``unmixed`` parentage are facing?
Any comments on the study focusing on the dillemma Asian children of ``unmixed`` parentage are facing?
#55 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 29, 2006 1:23:29 pm
Zahraj:
I was responding to a specific case cited in Dr. Sohail`s comment. I `d be more than happy to share my ``deep insights`` on topics like, muslims males and their shenanigans and insecurities etc. if someone wrote an article about them here.
By the way, the point i made earlier about the reason why a muslimah would raise her kids in islam still stands. if that is mocking then so be it.
I was responding to a specific case cited in Dr. Sohail`s comment. I `d be more than happy to share my ``deep insights`` on topics like, muslims males and their shenanigans and insecurities etc. if someone wrote an article about them here.
By the way, the point i made earlier about the reason why a muslimah would raise her kids in islam still stands. if that is mocking then so be it.
#54 Posted by freethinker on January 29, 2006 11:28:37 am
Veeresh:
Let me start from the bottom of your post first. The simplest definition of a traditional Muslim is the one who follows or tries to follow the traditions of his Muslim culture.
Coming to the top of your post, it is conceded that ``it is hardly an issue with a majority of the Muslims`` not for the reasons you might think of. The reason is that a majority of Muslims does not seek such relationships.
The point I tried to make (which was lost on majority of the interactors) was that those contracting mixed unions should think before hand some of the crucial issues (which they think are crucial) that are likely to crop up later, and try to reach mutual understanding about them. Circumcision was considered as one of them, not hypothetically or academically, but because it had become a real issue in the married life of the couple described in the article. Considered on a wider scale, it is only one of the issues that can mar the harmony of a mixed marriage.
Mohammad Gill
Let me start from the bottom of your post first. The simplest definition of a traditional Muslim is the one who follows or tries to follow the traditions of his Muslim culture.
Coming to the top of your post, it is conceded that ``it is hardly an issue with a majority of the Muslims`` not for the reasons you might think of. The reason is that a majority of Muslims does not seek such relationships.
The point I tried to make (which was lost on majority of the interactors) was that those contracting mixed unions should think before hand some of the crucial issues (which they think are crucial) that are likely to crop up later, and try to reach mutual understanding about them. Circumcision was considered as one of them, not hypothetically or academically, but because it had become a real issue in the married life of the couple described in the article. Considered on a wider scale, it is only one of the issues that can mar the harmony of a mixed marriage.
Mohammad Gill
#53 Posted by veeresh on January 29, 2006 10:20:09 am
This is hardly an issue or problem in most parts of the civilised world. It is hardly an issue with a majority of Muslims, also. Other than a few misguided fundoos, from most every religion, anyways.
Since the article does, however, specify believers versus unbelievers, I presume the author wishes to make a specific point about Muslims and non-Muslims.
Well, here again, a few backward sects, especially those with allegiance to some branches of Islam which choose to mis-interpret the guidelines for their own shallow purposes, try to make an issue about it. Ostensibly quoting the Holy Quran.
To them, the best advice one can give is:- don`t forget the ayaats while trying to memorise the Book.
+++
The author also mentions ``traditional Muslim``. Would he care to elucidate, please, on what exactly a ``traditional Muslim`` is? How, for example, does a ``traditional Muslim`` from Pakistan find similarity with a ``traditional Muslim`` from, say, Burhanpur or Akyab or even Qadian?
Since the article does, however, specify believers versus unbelievers, I presume the author wishes to make a specific point about Muslims and non-Muslims.
Well, here again, a few backward sects, especially those with allegiance to some branches of Islam which choose to mis-interpret the guidelines for their own shallow purposes, try to make an issue about it. Ostensibly quoting the Holy Quran.
To them, the best advice one can give is:- don`t forget the ayaats while trying to memorise the Book.
+++
The author also mentions ``traditional Muslim``. Would he care to elucidate, please, on what exactly a ``traditional Muslim`` is? How, for example, does a ``traditional Muslim`` from Pakistan find similarity with a ``traditional Muslim`` from, say, Burhanpur or Akyab or even Qadian?
#51 Posted by Ranjit on January 28, 2006 6:18:44 pm
Re:zahraj#49
[...You guys are so bloody conceited!...]
Madam, no need to get angry. I am just discussing some mid-life crisis issues with sattarji. :-)
[...You guys are so bloody conceited!...]
Madam, no need to get angry. I am just discussing some mid-life crisis issues with sattarji. :-)
#50 Posted by Ranjit on January 28, 2006 6:14:22 pm
Re:sattar2#41
[...… over time, both partners in a marriage achieve the same degree of happiness (or misery)...]
Sattarji, at the end of the day it all boils down to sex. If by some miracle your wife makes you happy in the bedroom (and vice-versa), a man is really happy in a marriage. Otherwise, people are miserable, although they may stay together for the sake of their kids and so forth.
The problem is that monogamy by its nature becomes boring after several years. Also our desi women (and desi men) deteriorate in looks very rapidly after marriage. They let go of themselves. So take any 40 year old married desi guy. Most likely he feels frustrated and trapped in his 10 year marriage and wonders about the rest of the world. :-)
Thats where my study kicks in!! :-) Men have the means at that stage in their life to setup, (ahem!!) other alternatives. Women do not have the means for that. Thats why married men are generally the happiest guys. The want to keep their bird in hand and go for the others in the bush....:-)
[...… over time, both partners in a marriage achieve the same degree of happiness (or misery)...]
Sattarji, at the end of the day it all boils down to sex. If by some miracle your wife makes you happy in the bedroom (and vice-versa), a man is really happy in a marriage. Otherwise, people are miserable, although they may stay together for the sake of their kids and so forth.
The problem is that monogamy by its nature becomes boring after several years. Also our desi women (and desi men) deteriorate in looks very rapidly after marriage. They let go of themselves. So take any 40 year old married desi guy. Most likely he feels frustrated and trapped in his 10 year marriage and wonders about the rest of the world. :-)
Thats where my study kicks in!! :-) Men have the means at that stage in their life to setup, (ahem!!) other alternatives. Women do not have the means for that. Thats why married men are generally the happiest guys. The want to keep their bird in hand and go for the others in the bush....:-)
#48 Posted by ZahraJ on January 27, 2006 7:19:22 pm
Sattar,
I did not consider anything in your post sarcastic. You should reciprocate in kind.
Also, I do not drink any caffeinated or decaffeinated drink at the Starbucks. Thank God, I got rid of the addiction 15 months ago. Now, I am into all kinds of exotic teas. I recommend looking into products by ``Honest Tea.`` They will keep you honest whenever you are making any facetious remark :) Oh, I forgot you a kanjoos aadmi. You will fast than spend $1.99 on a bottle of exotic tea.
I did not consider anything in your post sarcastic. You should reciprocate in kind.
Also, I do not drink any caffeinated or decaffeinated drink at the Starbucks. Thank God, I got rid of the addiction 15 months ago. Now, I am into all kinds of exotic teas. I recommend looking into products by ``Honest Tea.`` They will keep you honest whenever you are making any facetious remark :) Oh, I forgot you a kanjoos aadmi. You will fast than spend $1.99 on a bottle of exotic tea.
#47 Posted by sattar2 on January 27, 2006 5:23:19 pm
Zahra,
… you forgot to wish me a happy weekend towards the end of your post. And if I had multiple wives, my happiness index would be off the chart according to ranjit’s survey. But you do have a point about traffic tickets …
And I was not being sarcastic when calling you “dear”. But I think that’s how you took it … and responded accordingly. And everything went downhill from that point on. Gawd … you really gave me an ear full there …
And it’s not about me being interested (or disinterested) in your profile. But some things just jump out at me when I read your posts … that’s all. May be I should have kept them to myself. So mea culpa from me on this one. Friends again?
And if you do visit west coast, let’s hook up. But we’ll have to get you off this Starbucks fad first. Personally I think Starbucks is an asylum of sorts for those in dire need of social therapy. All kinds of annoying people show up there … yaking away on their latest cell phone, or showing off that annoying dolled-up chihuahua … or simply being too self-absorbed trying to appear intellectual (while actually reading a book recommended by oprah winfrey … jesus christ!! …) … while their car alarm keeps malfunctioning and going off every few minutes. And if you enjoy cigars, let me know. My contact, when he is not hiding from his wife or the IRS, can get some pretty good cubans every now and then …
#46 Posted by ZahraJ on January 27, 2006 5:08:07 pm
Re: # 42
Raw Dust: Even if your comment was in reference to post #28, it was simply out of line and inappropriate. Thank you for acknowledging the unfair practices/expectations that exist on both sides. By the way, I have a few female friends and cousins who are married to mormons. So far, they do not have any unreasonable expectations and demands. Most of these marriages were based on compatibility vs. falling in love and then falling out of it.
Interestingly, some of my liberal male cousins who have chosen to marry non-muslim women (all Christians) have never persuaded their wives toward Islam. That may sound like a given, but the interesting phenomenon is that the guys have gone through a change and become religious. No beards or stuff like that. Still they have never asked their wives to either convert or become a traditional muslima. All such marriages have survived so far for over 15 years with 2-3 kids. One`s wife even used to wear an abaya while she was in Saudi Arabia visiting her hubby`s family. She had the option not to go there, but she chose otherwise. There are strange non-muslim women out there who will start wearing abayas out of sheer love for their husbands. In some cases, these non-muslim aurtaen go above and beyond and make the muslimas look bad :)
On the other hand, during a recent family wedding I met my cousin`s wife for the first time. She is a korean and a doctor by profession. Since I had met my korean sister-in-law for the first time, I was so amused to find a tall and fair looking lady with bright and distinct korean features wearing a gotae` kinari wala dupata tightly wrapped around her head. It had at least 6 pins in it. I had a lovely time observing what I have not seen in ages. Then I thought that she is doing this for her husband to show him that she cared about his culture. I give a lot of credit to these educated and accomplished women who end up marrying the traditional muslim guys. By the way, she is a convert and became a muslim before meeting her hubby. I have seen more expectations coming from the men`s side vs. otherwise. Most importantly, from the mother(goddess) of the guy. A lot of times these mixed marriages put more pressure on the women as they have to deal with traditional, biased and racisit mother-in-laws. That`s the only reason you comment jumped out. Your observations may be otherwise.
By the way, isn`t it high time that women start actively pursuing their expectations(whatever they may be)? Some have religious expectations. Some have irreligious expectations. Why should you only mock a woman`s religious or irreligious expectations? Would you do the same to a man as well?
Raw Dust: Even if your comment was in reference to post #28, it was simply out of line and inappropriate. Thank you for acknowledging the unfair practices/expectations that exist on both sides. By the way, I have a few female friends and cousins who are married to mormons. So far, they do not have any unreasonable expectations and demands. Most of these marriages were based on compatibility vs. falling in love and then falling out of it.
Interestingly, some of my liberal male cousins who have chosen to marry non-muslim women (all Christians) have never persuaded their wives toward Islam. That may sound like a given, but the interesting phenomenon is that the guys have gone through a change and become religious. No beards or stuff like that. Still they have never asked their wives to either convert or become a traditional muslima. All such marriages have survived so far for over 15 years with 2-3 kids. One`s wife even used to wear an abaya while she was in Saudi Arabia visiting her hubby`s family. She had the option not to go there, but she chose otherwise. There are strange non-muslim women out there who will start wearing abayas out of sheer love for their husbands. In some cases, these non-muslim aurtaen go above and beyond and make the muslimas look bad :)
On the other hand, during a recent family wedding I met my cousin`s wife for the first time. She is a korean and a doctor by profession. Since I had met my korean sister-in-law for the first time, I was so amused to find a tall and fair looking lady with bright and distinct korean features wearing a gotae` kinari wala dupata tightly wrapped around her head. It had at least 6 pins in it. I had a lovely time observing what I have not seen in ages. Then I thought that she is doing this for her husband to show him that she cared about his culture. I give a lot of credit to these educated and accomplished women who end up marrying the traditional muslim guys. By the way, she is a convert and became a muslim before meeting her hubby. I have seen more expectations coming from the men`s side vs. otherwise. Most importantly, from the mother(goddess) of the guy. A lot of times these mixed marriages put more pressure on the women as they have to deal with traditional, biased and racisit mother-in-laws. That`s the only reason you comment jumped out. Your observations may be otherwise.
By the way, isn`t it high time that women start actively pursuing their expectations(whatever they may be)? Some have religious expectations. Some have irreligious expectations. Why should you only mock a woman`s religious or irreligious expectations? Would you do the same to a man as well?
#45 Posted by teshah on January 27, 2006 4:50:42 pm
33 by teshah
The correct saying of Bernard Shaw quoted in my post at #33 is ``The golden rule is that there is no golden rule``. Sorry for the omission.
41 by sattar2
Thank you dear Sattar for your kind response.
The correct saying of Bernard Shaw quoted in my post at #33 is ``The golden rule is that there is no golden rule``. Sorry for the omission.
41 by sattar2
Thank you dear Sattar for your kind response.
#44 Posted by ZahraJ on January 27, 2006 4:10:25 pm
Sattar dear,
I think you should be least interested in my profile. You are not very good at speculating anything. So you should not tread where you do not belong. Your utmost interest and focus should be making yourself a pleasant individual for your surroundings, paying all the traffic tickets on-time and expecting more in the coming months. At least, be a traditional man! :)
Come to think of it, you are having issues paying one wife`s traffic tickets. God forbid, if you had more than one, you would be dead by now. So, you should be thankful to God for what you have. I am sure you realize that without God`s intervention :) Still, if you need help which I think you do, you know who to consult. And it`s not me.
Some of your anecdotes are very interesting and require some discussion. I wished Chowk offered ilog feedback where you could pen your random thoughts. That will be fun.
By the way, if I am in your neck of the woods, I will send you a note. I would love to interview you for a write-up - a guy`s perspective. See all that whining did not go wasted :)
I think you should be least interested in my profile. You are not very good at speculating anything. So you should not tread where you do not belong. Your utmost interest and focus should be making yourself a pleasant individual for your surroundings, paying all the traffic tickets on-time and expecting more in the coming months. At least, be a traditional man! :)
Come to think of it, you are having issues paying one wife`s traffic tickets. God forbid, if you had more than one, you would be dead by now. So, you should be thankful to God for what you have. I am sure you realize that without God`s intervention :) Still, if you need help which I think you do, you know who to consult. And it`s not me.
Some of your anecdotes are very interesting and require some discussion. I wished Chowk offered ilog feedback where you could pen your random thoughts. That will be fun.
By the way, if I am in your neck of the woods, I will send you a note. I would love to interview you for a write-up - a guy`s perspective. See all that whining did not go wasted :)
#43 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 27, 2006 3:50:04 pm
my last post is with reference to drsohail`s comment in #28.
peace.
peace.
#42 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 27, 2006 3:44:02 pm
re#31:
if somebody got offended, i apologise, though i didnt mean to be unkind or whatever.
i was merely pointing out the mismatch, being an atheist myself, i just dont see this guy expecting things that he is. it is just downright unreasonable.
from mom`s POV : she is saving the Kid from Hellfire through indoctrination and this guy should have known this all along. the only thing he could do now is to be accomodating. fighting over foreskin is quite trivial.
if somebody got offended, i apologise, though i didnt mean to be unkind or whatever.
i was merely pointing out the mismatch, being an atheist myself, i just dont see this guy expecting things that he is. it is just downright unreasonable.
from mom`s POV : she is saving the Kid from Hellfire through indoctrination and this guy should have known this all along. the only thing he could do now is to be accomodating. fighting over foreskin is quite trivial.
#41 Posted by sattar2 on January 27, 2006 10:55:06 am
Zahra dear,
(… don’t know how to say this, but will try anyway … and kindly accept my apologies if I cross the line …)
I get this feeling that you think all of life’s issues can be solved by making a flow chart, with arrows pointing between rectangular boxes … on power point slides. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve read “the art of war”, cover to cover, several times (... can’t help smirking as I write this …).
Your views about life, work, and people are seemingly a product of the late 90s (at least I am reminded of that era ... and its euphoria). And those were deceptive times. People, with their portfolios, expectations, and personal work ethics … have gone through major recalibrations since then. It’s been a return to the basics, of sorts. Don’t be the one left holding the bag …
Ok … ok … a lot of things I say here are not to be taken seriously … as I say them merely in jest. My marriage is doing alright (ahem, thus far) … and some cynicism and facetiousness on my part have served me well over time. It keeps life and sex interesting, and makes marriage a lot more manageable than it would be otherwise. Mrs. sattar is an angel, although I stand by my comments about the in-laws. And every marriage goes through good and bad times … some make it, some don’t, but all suffer in some way, shape, or form. And it’s a lot better to take something that is halfway decent and work on it, than to wait for the perfect opportunity. So mrs. sattar continues to try to teach me civility, despite my efforts to drag her down. Bickering goes on … and so does life. But bills get paid on time … she refuses to dump me … and kids are not too embarrassed to call me ``daddy`` ... so no complaints from my side ...
Ranjit dude (#27),
There are lies, worse lies, and then there is statistics. And finally, there are market surveys. Don’t know much about these surveys … but it seems that in a reasonably good marriage things get averaged out over time. That is … over time, both partners in a marriage achieve the same degree of happiness (or misery). If one spouse is miserable, he will pull the other one down. If one is genuinely happy, his happiness will rub off on the other one. And how do I know all this? It kinda goes back to what Socrates said ...
My father thinks that over time, a husband and wife even start to look alike. Their gestures, features, expressions, body language … all start to mirror each other’s. Didn`t want to argue with him ... as he was putting up good money to send me off with a one-way ticket and an I-20 ...
Shah Sahib (#33),
Agreed. Absolute statements hardly ever cut it. Life remains too abstract and too fluid to be defined by a single rule or a matrix …
#40 Posted by Kamath on January 27, 2006 5:34:53 am
Re: # 28
Tell me Doc! Becoming an apostate or an athiest is a dangerous business in the eyes of Islam. I am told that the punishment is death!
So why in the world the lady decided to get married to him so willingly?
Why should she get so fixated with this ritual and literal translation of words of a holybook and traditions etc.? What kind of religion is that which demands every follower fall in line without the slightest deviation!
Afterall majority of humankind do not have the practice of circumcision. Why not make liberal adjustment with the views of the husband. After all Allah knows everything. Leave it to Allah to decide!
Kamath
Tell me Doc! Becoming an apostate or an athiest is a dangerous business in the eyes of Islam. I am told that the punishment is death!
So why in the world the lady decided to get married to him so willingly?
Why should she get so fixated with this ritual and literal translation of words of a holybook and traditions etc.? What kind of religion is that which demands every follower fall in line without the slightest deviation!
Afterall majority of humankind do not have the practice of circumcision. Why not make liberal adjustment with the views of the husband. After all Allah knows everything. Leave it to Allah to decide!
Kamath
#39 Posted by Saminasha on January 27, 2006 4:06:01 am
Writer,
Be interested in your comments on the following info:
You are cordially invited to a lecture: The Other Side of the Model Minority Story: The Psychological and Social Adjustment of Chinese American Adolescents by Desiree Baolian Qin on
Research on Asian origin children and adolescents in the U.S. has focused predominantly on their educational achievement. This emphasis, however, ignores not only the diversity of Asian students’ educational experiences but also their psychological and social well-being. A small but growing body of research suggests that while Asian American students may be doing well in school, they face many challenges in this psychological and social adjustment. National data show that Asian American adolescent girls have the highest rates of depressive symptoms of all racial groups and have the highest suicide rate among all women between 15 and 24 years of age. Some studies on Asian American boys suggest that they tend to be more withdrawn and depressed compared to their peers from other ethnic groups. Mental health of children and adolescents is also become a rising concern in the Asian American community.
In this presentation, I will draw on my research with Chinese immigrant children and families as well as other research findings to examine the psychological and social adjustment of Chinese American children. I will explore family and school factors that may contribute to the struggles Chinese American adolescents face in their development. More specially, I will examine the issue of growing emotional alienation in many families and the issue of peer bullying and lack of adult support at school. To conclude, I hope to discuss with the audience what schools, families, and communities can do to address these challenges toward the goal of promoting healthy development of all Asian American children.
Desirée Baolian Qin received her doctoral degree from Harvard Graduate School of Education and is currently a Postdoc Fellow at Teachers College, Columbia University. Her research focuses on immigration, adolescent development, and education. Her dissertation study explored how gender interacts with home- and school-level factors in Chinese immigrant children’s educational and psychosocial adaptation. In her current research, she is examining the psychological adjustment of Chinese American adolescents, particularly the impact of parent-child relations and school factors, such as perceived support from teachers and peer relations. She is the author of “Gendered Expectations and Gendered Experiences: Immigrant Students’ Adaptation in Schools” (New Directions for Youth Development, 2004). She is co-editor (with Marcelo Suárez-Orozco and Carola Suárez-Orozco) of the six-volume series titled Interdisciplinary Perspectives on the New Immigration (Routledge, 2001) and co-editor (with Marcelo Suárez-Orozco) of Globalization: Education and Culture in the New Millennium (UC Press, 2004).
Be interested in your comments on the following info:
You are cordially invited to a lecture: The Other Side of the Model Minority Story: The Psychological and Social Adjustment of Chinese American Adolescents by Desiree Baolian Qin on
Research on Asian origin children and adolescents in the U.S. has focused predominantly on their educational achievement. This emphasis, however, ignores not only the diversity of Asian students’ educational experiences but also their psychological and social well-being. A small but growing body of research suggests that while Asian American students may be doing well in school, they face many challenges in this psychological and social adjustment. National data show that Asian American adolescent girls have the highest rates of depressive symptoms of all racial groups and have the highest suicide rate among all women between 15 and 24 years of age. Some studies on Asian American boys suggest that they tend to be more withdrawn and depressed compared to their peers from other ethnic groups. Mental health of children and adolescents is also become a rising concern in the Asian American community.
In this presentation, I will draw on my research with Chinese immigrant children and families as well as other research findings to examine the psychological and social adjustment of Chinese American children. I will explore family and school factors that may contribute to the struggles Chinese American adolescents face in their development. More specially, I will examine the issue of growing emotional alienation in many families and the issue of peer bullying and lack of adult support at school. To conclude, I hope to discuss with the audience what schools, families, and communities can do to address these challenges toward the goal of promoting healthy development of all Asian American children.
Desirée Baolian Qin received her doctoral degree from Harvard Graduate School of Education and is currently a Postdoc Fellow at Teachers College, Columbia University. Her research focuses on immigration, adolescent development, and education. Her dissertation study explored how gender interacts with home- and school-level factors in Chinese immigrant children’s educational and psychosocial adaptation. In her current research, she is examining the psychological adjustment of Chinese American adolescents, particularly the impact of parent-child relations and school factors, such as perceived support from teachers and peer relations. She is the author of “Gendered Expectations and Gendered Experiences: Immigrant Students’ Adaptation in Schools” (New Directions for Youth Development, 2004). She is co-editor (with Marcelo Suárez-Orozco and Carola Suárez-Orozco) of the six-volume series titled Interdisciplinary Perspectives on the New Immigration (Routledge, 2001) and co-editor (with Marcelo Suárez-Orozco) of Globalization: Education and Culture in the New Millennium (UC Press, 2004).
#38 Posted by ballukhan on January 27, 2006 12:25:06 am
Re: # 28
In order to hide one`s guilt of not being a `faithful` most of the so called religious persons extoll the virtues of religiousity to others.....................including proselytization by forcibly imprinting their progenies with the signs of covenent with the almighty on their private parts...............
I have always wondered as an agnostic-
why shouldn`t the almighty alter the human genes so that every one is born without a foreskin............. and let this be a proof of the immutable covenent with the almighty.........
In order to hide one`s guilt of not being a `faithful` most of the so called religious persons extoll the virtues of religiousity to others.....................including proselytization by forcibly imprinting their progenies with the signs of covenent with the almighty on their private parts...............
I have always wondered as an agnostic-
why shouldn`t the almighty alter the human genes so that every one is born without a foreskin............. and let this be a proof of the immutable covenent with the almighty.........
#37 Posted by ballukhan on January 26, 2006 11:52:55 pm
As an agnostic I would certainly not like my son to be imprinted with some reminder of some covenent with some unknown almighty on his private parts................he would certainly be cursing me in his private moments in case he grows up to be an atheist............fortunately I have daughters like Hamidm...........
#36 Posted by ahmedmadani on January 26, 2006 10:03:00 pm
tragedy of mixed marriages is that no body objects or opposes so all romance is gone from mixed marriage.
#34 Posted by delhiwala on January 26, 2006 8:33:31 pm
I would say castrate the sinful atheist man for marrying a Muslim woman.
As far as Muslim woman is concerned, female circumcision available, as done in African tribes.
As far as Muslim woman is concerned, female circumcision available, as done in African tribes.
#33 Posted by teshah on January 26, 2006 7:20:19 pm
24 by sattar 2
``I think Socrates nailed it when he said to his students … “My advice to you is that you should get married. If you find a good spouse, you’ll be happy. Otherwise you’ll become a philosopher”. There you have it … I think every married man is partly a philosopher … some realize this, some don’t … and life goes on … ``
Good clinching comment.
In fact marriages being generally hetero-sexual are essentially mixed ones. It is the sex whch binds them despite all divergences like gravitation. I had a young sister-in-law of mine who had a love marriage but had been exprerensing some estrangement with her husband. One day the couple came to our home and started talking about their family problem. The husband said,``Look uncle we can`t pull on any further due to some serious differences betwwn us: I am Urdu-speaking and she a Pujabi one, I m a Shia and she is Sunni, I am highly educated and she is illiterare``. I said, `` You have forgotton the most important different between you and her, i.e, of sex, as you are a man and she a woman.``
I did not meet them again but learnt later on that they got divorced and the girl got married
with an aged uncle of her ex-husband and is pulling on well despite greater divergences with her new husband. So as Bernard Shaw said ``The golden rule is that there is no rule``. This is all the more correct in case of marriage perhaps.
``I think Socrates nailed it when he said to his students … “My advice to you is that you should get married. If you find a good spouse, you’ll be happy. Otherwise you’ll become a philosopher”. There you have it … I think every married man is partly a philosopher … some realize this, some don’t … and life goes on … ``
Good clinching comment.
In fact marriages being generally hetero-sexual are essentially mixed ones. It is the sex whch binds them despite all divergences like gravitation. I had a young sister-in-law of mine who had a love marriage but had been exprerensing some estrangement with her husband. One day the couple came to our home and started talking about their family problem. The husband said,``Look uncle we can`t pull on any further due to some serious differences betwwn us: I am Urdu-speaking and she a Pujabi one, I m a Shia and she is Sunni, I am highly educated and she is illiterare``. I said, `` You have forgotton the most important different between you and her, i.e, of sex, as you are a man and she a woman.``
I did not meet them again but learnt later on that they got divorced and the girl got married
with an aged uncle of her ex-husband and is pulling on well despite greater divergences with her new husband. So as Bernard Shaw said ``The golden rule is that there is no rule``. This is all the more correct in case of marriage perhaps.
#32 Posted by ZahraJ on January 26, 2006 6:53:15 pm
Sattar:
With all said, it seems you aren`t going to consult Hazratae` Khizr on board :)
With all said, it seems you aren`t going to consult Hazratae` Khizr on board :)
#31 Posted by ZahraJ on January 26, 2006 6:47:18 pm
The following is an excellent observation presented by Kulharee. It kind of refutes what Freethinker has presented in this gloomy and weird essay. The concept behind this article is indeed worth exploring but the conclusions are naive and impractical. They simply lack any kind of freethinking. That`s where I think Freethinker`s perspectives have a tendency to lean towards ``traditional`` Muslims views vs anything else when it comes to social sciences :)
[The challenges that mixed unions present are not any different from the challenges that non-mixed unions present. ]
#29 - Raw_Dust
I think you meant bothg Pakistani Muslims/Muslimahs. Please do not be so damn unkind toward your own species. If the Muslimahs have unreasonable expectations then the Muslims are no less than them. Let`s be fair for a change!
[The challenges that mixed unions present are not any different from the challenges that non-mixed unions present. ]
#29 - Raw_Dust
I think you meant bothg Pakistani Muslims/Muslimahs. Please do not be so damn unkind toward your own species. If the Muslimahs have unreasonable expectations then the Muslims are no less than them. Let`s be fair for a change!
#30 Posted by nasah on January 26, 2006 4:47:20 pm
dr sohail -- wish I had not asked the question -- ur answer took away the sting, the suspense, the mystery of the story -- this is not an irreligious husband -- of a knowledgeable pragmatic wife -- who seems to be practicing fanatic atheism...
the fight is a much ado about nothing -- circumcision may be Abrahamic practice of a redundant piece of skin that like -- cutting your nail that is no nail mutilation -- is no genital mutilation.
of course cutting penile tissue like cutting clitoris -- is definitely genital mutilation... and it is medically proven to lower the incidence of cancer of the penis -- only if the prepuce is not kept clean.....
btw this marriage is headed for the rocks....
the fight is a much ado about nothing -- circumcision may be Abrahamic practice of a redundant piece of skin that like -- cutting your nail that is no nail mutilation -- is no genital mutilation.
of course cutting penile tissue like cutting clitoris -- is definitely genital mutilation... and it is medically proven to lower the incidence of cancer of the penis -- only if the prepuce is not kept clean.....
btw this marriage is headed for the rocks....
#29 Posted by Raw_Dust on January 26, 2006 4:36:04 pm
drsohail:
this guy should have known thoroughly what he was getting into... i mean did he not know pakistani muslimahs and their ideas and expectations of nikaah and ``marriage``.?
The guy should take the blame all the way and put up with it.
this guy should have known thoroughly what he was getting into... i mean did he not know pakistani muslimahs and their ideas and expectations of nikaah and ``marriage``.?
The guy should take the blame all the way and put up with it.
#28 Posted by drsohail on January 26, 2006 1:56:31 pm
Dear Mohammad Gill
One of the readers asked about the background of the atheist husband in the story.
He is from a Muslim Pakistani family but has become an atheist.
Muslim wife moved from Pakistan to North America after marriage.
The family lives in America now
sincerely
sohail
One of the readers asked about the background of the atheist husband in the story.
He is from a Muslim Pakistani family but has become an atheist.
Muslim wife moved from Pakistan to North America after marriage.
The family lives in America now
sincerely
sohail
#27 Posted by Ranjit on January 26, 2006 12:35:10 pm
Re:sattar2
Sirjee, you are wrong. There was a very interesting study performed at University of Chicago where they showed that the order of happiness was as follows - married men, single women, single men and finally married women. So married men are actually the happiest people in society.
The main reason is that a married man has options. He can focus on career and make money i.e. succeed. Besides having a guaranteed female company at home, with success comes options like chasing the trophy second wife, having a mistress etc. Even if you do not exercise these options, the fact that you have these options makes a man happy. Also married men have longer life spans and less stress.
Single women have a lot of options as well, especially when it comes to dating and choosing a man. They do not have the financial means like a married man, in general. So they fall in the second category.
Single men may have money but they have lesser options because they do not have a guaranteed female company and have to work hard to acquire one and sustain it.
Married women are the worst of the lot because they typically give up on career aspirations. As a result they have lesser economic clout. Also with kids, a woman`s options gets even more limited. It is incredibly hard for a married woman to walk out on a husband and get a new dad for her kids. It is incredibly easy for a married man to walk out on his wife and get a new wife.
So, sattarji, stop being so depressed. You are in the happiest category already. :-)
Sirjee, you are wrong. There was a very interesting study performed at University of Chicago where they showed that the order of happiness was as follows - married men, single women, single men and finally married women. So married men are actually the happiest people in society.
The main reason is that a married man has options. He can focus on career and make money i.e. succeed. Besides having a guaranteed female company at home, with success comes options like chasing the trophy second wife, having a mistress etc. Even if you do not exercise these options, the fact that you have these options makes a man happy. Also married men have longer life spans and less stress.
Single women have a lot of options as well, especially when it comes to dating and choosing a man. They do not have the financial means like a married man, in general. So they fall in the second category.
Single men may have money but they have lesser options because they do not have a guaranteed female company and have to work hard to acquire one and sustain it.
Married women are the worst of the lot because they typically give up on career aspirations. As a result they have lesser economic clout. Also with kids, a woman`s options gets even more limited. It is incredibly hard for a married woman to walk out on a husband and get a new dad for her kids. It is incredibly easy for a married man to walk out on his wife and get a new wife.
So, sattarji, stop being so depressed. You are in the happiest category already. :-)
#26 Posted by Kulharee on January 26, 2006 10:31:06 am
Re: # 25
Soysauce, my comment was that the marital issues and problems (I wouldn’t call them problems, perhaps concerns??) are similar in both types of unions. Kids and their challenges, etc. are part of every household with kids. Perhaps there unique issues faced by inter-racial couples (and no doubt about it) but to say that, and I will quote Gill Sahib’s concluding remarks.
>>>In the end, it should be remembered that a mixed union requires the nourishment of lifelong sacrifices. It is best when both partners are willing to make them. Otherwise, it is better to seek homogeneous relationships in which such issues (circumcision, etc.) do not crop up every now and then and make marriage a venomous and bitter experience for both of them.<<<
I think that those little issues that Gill Sahib is alluding to are inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. It all depends on the partnership; and there is no need to go out of one’s way to (to what Gill Sahib calls “lifelong sacrifice”) to do that.
And I think that any relationship requires “nourishment of lifelong commitment” (to borrow from Gill Sahib mit gratis) regardless of difference of faith or cultural upbringing. No wonder that over half of the marriages in the US end in divorce.
Soysauce, my comment was that the marital issues and problems (I wouldn’t call them problems, perhaps concerns??) are similar in both types of unions. Kids and their challenges, etc. are part of every household with kids. Perhaps there unique issues faced by inter-racial couples (and no doubt about it) but to say that, and I will quote Gill Sahib’s concluding remarks.
>>>In the end, it should be remembered that a mixed union requires the nourishment of lifelong sacrifices. It is best when both partners are willing to make them. Otherwise, it is better to seek homogeneous relationships in which such issues (circumcision, etc.) do not crop up every now and then and make marriage a venomous and bitter experience for both of them.<<<
I think that those little issues that Gill Sahib is alluding to are inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. It all depends on the partnership; and there is no need to go out of one’s way to (to what Gill Sahib calls “lifelong sacrifice”) to do that.
And I think that any relationship requires “nourishment of lifelong commitment” (to borrow from Gill Sahib mit gratis) regardless of difference of faith or cultural upbringing. No wonder that over half of the marriages in the US end in divorce.
#25 Posted by soysauce on January 26, 2006 10:15:37 am
#20 kulharee
Interesting comment. Circumcision becoming an issue is a symptom of a larger ``control`` problem.
``Mixed`` marriages by default happen between people who are either open to other POV or are too moonstruck to realize what they are getting into. What this article relates is a cautionary tale having to do with the latter group but that by no means is representative.
If a marital relationship is dominated by worries over school, sex & drugs, mortgage payments, etc., one wonders why marry in the first place..
Isn`t marriage about fulfillment and not codependency?
Interesting comment. Circumcision becoming an issue is a symptom of a larger ``control`` problem.
``Mixed`` marriages by default happen between people who are either open to other POV or are too moonstruck to realize what they are getting into. What this article relates is a cautionary tale having to do with the latter group but that by no means is representative.
If a marital relationship is dominated by worries over school, sex & drugs, mortgage payments, etc., one wonders why marry in the first place..
Isn`t marriage about fulfillment and not codependency?
#24 Posted by sattar2 on January 26, 2006 9:51:35 am
Zahra (re #19) …
Men don’t know diddly anymore … and it’s all women’s fault. Now it would not be such a big issue if men were allowed to have multiple wives. That way when one is giving us an attitude, we’d go to the other one … problem solved. But alas … despite being a self-proclaimed muslim, mrs. sattar would have none of it … and she has “law of the land” on her side …
And such are the facts that every man knows (tahmed remains an exception). And I think hamidm is in agreement with me on futility of marriage … unless mrs. hamidm read his posts and gave him a time-out. May be his visit to Pakistan was his punishment. But what do I know … all I know is that my next mortgage payment is coming due pretty soon … while mrs. sattar continues to get speeding tickets …
I think Socrates nailed it when he said to his students … “My advice to you is that you should get married. If you find a good spouse, you’ll be happy. Otherwise you’ll become a philosopher”. There you have it … I think every married man is partly a philosopher … some realize this, some don’t … and life goes on …
And you have no idea what beasts in-laws can be … so don’t throw stones yet. And one day when you do get a taste of it, let me know. We’ll have a coffee chat and discuss god, king, and the country … and everything will start to make sense to you too …
#23 Posted by freethinker on January 26, 2006 8:25:35 am
Mr. Kulaharee:
I appreciate your critique. I was inspired to write on this topic by the story I described. In the text I made some general comments about other things also which can be a sore point in such unions. For instace, I did mention about the religion (or no religion) into which the kids of such unions would be raised. In academic discussions, such issues do not hit you with the same impact that they do when you are personally going through such difficult experience. My article was just a short essay; it was not a thesis on mixed unions. The article tried to underline the triviality of a factor that could become thorny in the situations of mixed unions.
Other problems that you have mentioned, I have gone through them. I can empathize with you because I have been (and still am) there. Raising of children by responsible parents is not a joke. I wish you well and I`ll try to do better next time,
Mohammad Gill
I appreciate your critique. I was inspired to write on this topic by the story I described. In the text I made some general comments about other things also which can be a sore point in such unions. For instace, I did mention about the religion (or no religion) into which the kids of such unions would be raised. In academic discussions, such issues do not hit you with the same impact that they do when you are personally going through such difficult experience. My article was just a short essay; it was not a thesis on mixed unions. The article tried to underline the triviality of a factor that could become thorny in the situations of mixed unions.
Other problems that you have mentioned, I have gone through them. I can empathize with you because I have been (and still am) there. Raising of children by responsible parents is not a joke. I wish you well and I`ll try to do better next time,
Mohammad Gill
#22 Posted by Kulharee on January 26, 2006 7:54:27 am
Gill Sahib, That’s all fine, but to exemplify just one instance of such a marriage by no means present a wider phenomenon. You title your essay as “Dilemma of Mixed Unions” by citing just “one” story. Unless it is a wider and more prevalent issue, it is neither an appropriate title, nor an appropriate story to tell. It can be a nice story in a larger scheme of things.
My kids are both baptized, circumcised, and Aqiqafide. I am not suggesting that they will grow up to appreciate all the religions or appreciate all the idiosyncrasies of various cultures and anthrops. In fact, if anything, they will look for what is wrong with “each one of them”, instead of just looking at what is wrong with just “one”.
The challenges that mixed unions present are not any different from the challenges that non-mixed unions present. In my case, we as a couple are more worried about kids, schools, drugs, sex, local politics, stupid relatives on both sides, yearly vacations, etc. And I don’t for a second think that if we were of the same faith and same cultural backgrounds, our challenges will be any different.
But then again, that is just “my” experience.
My kids are both baptized, circumcised, and Aqiqafide. I am not suggesting that they will grow up to appreciate all the religions or appreciate all the idiosyncrasies of various cultures and anthrops. In fact, if anything, they will look for what is wrong with “each one of them”, instead of just looking at what is wrong with just “one”.
The challenges that mixed unions present are not any different from the challenges that non-mixed unions present. In my case, we as a couple are more worried about kids, schools, drugs, sex, local politics, stupid relatives on both sides, yearly vacations, etc. And I don’t for a second think that if we were of the same faith and same cultural backgrounds, our challenges will be any different.
But then again, that is just “my” experience.
#21 Posted by freethinker on January 26, 2006 7:36:56 am
Mr. Kulharee:
Thanks for your feedback and the statistics you presented.
I did not discuss circumcision as a global issue in the article. It became an issue between the wife and the husband and it is not fictional nor hypothetical; it is a true story.
As far as I am concerned I care two hoots for it. My earliest memory of the downside of circumcision goes back to 1947. The Hindus and Sikhs would strip the males to check who were Muslims. The circumsized ones were put to death.
My essay is not about circumcision and pricks; it is about mixed unions. Circumcision among other things could become a dissident issue as it did in the story I described. The couples entering the mixed unions should consider such issues before tying the knot.
I do not have any `palaver` with your statistics; that was not the theme nor the point of the article. Individuals can still be mortified in mixed unions in spite of the rosy picture you presented by your statistics.
Mohammad Gill
Thanks for your feedback and the statistics you presented.
I did not discuss circumcision as a global issue in the article. It became an issue between the wife and the husband and it is not fictional nor hypothetical; it is a true story.
As far as I am concerned I care two hoots for it. My earliest memory of the downside of circumcision goes back to 1947. The Hindus and Sikhs would strip the males to check who were Muslims. The circumsized ones were put to death.
My essay is not about circumcision and pricks; it is about mixed unions. Circumcision among other things could become a dissident issue as it did in the story I described. The couples entering the mixed unions should consider such issues before tying the knot.
I do not have any `palaver` with your statistics; that was not the theme nor the point of the article. Individuals can still be mortified in mixed unions in spite of the rosy picture you presented by your statistics.
Mohammad Gill
#20 Posted by Kulharee on January 26, 2006 6:54:46 am
>>>The marriages in which there is absolutely no compromise and accommodation regarding the individuals’ religious backgrounds, culture and cultural practices, usually end up in bitterness, in fiasco, or remain unduly in enduring and stressful relationships. Church and mosque, mosque and mandar, or mosque and no mosque are seldom symbiotic realities unless the spouses are prepared not to push them hard and test them every now and then. A loving relationship should rise above these things. They need to come to some reasonable understanding about their children as well.<<<
Gill Sahib… your essay is a total nonsense, it lacks any substance. Islam or any other religion is not about chopping off a little skin off penis, and marriages are institutions that are above the shape and size of pricks. In the US, as it is, 50% marriages end up in Divorce (you can easily say that over 99 % of them are not cross cultural). In Pakistan the rate of happy marriages is about 6%, the rest are just for legalized and cheap sex. In Saudi Arabia the rate of divorce is minus 26% (because only the women is divorced, the man has 17 wives and can never be divorced).
Today, in NYC area, in the Greek Orthodox Church, over half of the marriages solemnized are mixed unions. And the divorce rate (if that be any indication) among mixed unions is far less than non-mixed marriages.
Gill Sahib… your essay is a total nonsense, it lacks any substance. Islam or any other religion is not about chopping off a little skin off penis, and marriages are institutions that are above the shape and size of pricks. In the US, as it is, 50% marriages end up in Divorce (you can easily say that over 99 % of them are not cross cultural). In Pakistan the rate of happy marriages is about 6%, the rest are just for legalized and cheap sex. In Saudi Arabia the rate of divorce is minus 26% (because only the women is divorced, the man has 17 wives and can never be divorced).
Today, in NYC area, in the Greek Orthodox Church, over half of the marriages solemnized are mixed unions. And the divorce rate (if that be any indication) among mixed unions is far less than non-mixed marriages.
#19 Posted by ZahraJ on January 25, 2006 8:55:30 pm
Freethinker:
This is a weird read. I read one article by Dr. Khalid Sohail on this ezine. If these are the things he is raising in ``When a believer....`` I will make sure that I do not browse through that story.
[In spite of my agnosticism, my wife’s traditional orthodox Muslim life style and my children’s receiving their early education in a Catholic Junior High School, my children chose to remain traditional Muslims of their own volition.]
I have yet to read anything by you where one could locate any semblance of agnosticism. You may consider yourself one, but your writings convey a different message. I only see a traditional Muslim in your writings. I guess you have been *truly* influenced by your wife :)
[If circumcision were such a big issue for the woman, she should have brought it up for candid discussion before going too deep into her relationship. Likewise, they should have discussed how they would raise their children and into what religion (or without it), before stepping across the threshold.]
I cannot believe what I am reading. This is an unreasonable and unrealistic expectation!
#18 - Arjun_m
I guess you have been spending too much time on Chowk investigating interactors and their leanings. Are you conducting some analysis for a research lab? Or it`s just the same old psycho-analysis?
#16 - Sattar
[The whole damn institution of marriage is a bloody mess...]
Really? I thought real men knew how to exercise their options! You have been whining for quite sometime on Chowk regarding the said issue. Probably, you should consult Dr. Khalid Sohail. There is a reason why Chowk`s administration decided to host his articles :)
This is a weird read. I read one article by Dr. Khalid Sohail on this ezine. If these are the things he is raising in ``When a believer....`` I will make sure that I do not browse through that story.
[In spite of my agnosticism, my wife’s traditional orthodox Muslim life style and my children’s receiving their early education in a Catholic Junior High School, my children chose to remain traditional Muslims of their own volition.]
I have yet to read anything by you where one could locate any semblance of agnosticism. You may consider yourself one, but your writings convey a different message. I only see a traditional Muslim in your writings. I guess you have been *truly* influenced by your wife :)
[If circumcision were such a big issue for the woman, she should have brought it up for candid discussion before going too deep into her relationship. Likewise, they should have discussed how they would raise their children and into what religion (or without it), before stepping across the threshold.]
I cannot believe what I am reading. This is an unreasonable and unrealistic expectation!
#18 - Arjun_m
I guess you have been spending too much time on Chowk investigating interactors and their leanings. Are you conducting some analysis for a research lab? Or it`s just the same old psycho-analysis?
#16 - Sattar
[The whole damn institution of marriage is a bloody mess...]
Really? I thought real men knew how to exercise their options! You have been whining for quite sometime on Chowk regarding the said issue. Probably, you should consult Dr. Khalid Sohail. There is a reason why Chowk`s administration decided to host his articles :)
#18 Posted by arjun_m on January 25, 2006 7:37:41 pm
#2 by Urstruly on January 25, 2006 11:19am PT
You`ve accepted Uncle Sam suzerainty over that of allah...doesn`t that make you a non-muslim(non-believer) as well? considering that your tax money is going to kill muslim homies back in Pakiland and Iraq...
You`ve accepted Uncle Sam suzerainty over that of allah...doesn`t that make you a non-muslim(non-believer) as well? considering that your tax money is going to kill muslim homies back in Pakiland and Iraq...
#17 Posted by arjun_m on January 25, 2006 6:30:30 pm
The husband, rightly or wrongly, equated circumcision to genital mutilation.
I didn’t realize that the male circumcision could become such an acrimonious issue
Hospitals in the US give out newborn information kits that list the benefits of circumcision..don`t know where the ``atheist`` got that information from..
Usually, it is expected that a non-believer is more rational and hence should be more accommodating than the religious partner.
It`s one thing to accomodate your spouse not eating pork/beef...It`s a whole another thing to agree to the circumcision if you think it`s harmful...
#16 Posted by sattar2 on January 25, 2006 6:13:46 pm
Gill Sahib,
Why blame circumcision … the whole damn institution of marriage is a bloody mess. Nowadays it’s only homosexuals who want to get married … only because they are not allowed to do so. It is a perverted political statement of sorts. But if given a chance to actually get married, they would probably rethink. The only other type that wants to get married are ones with a nostalgic bedouin outlook …
Coming back to the gay issue: It is shocking to see people harp about the sanctity of marriage … and listing why them faggots shouldn’t be allowed to marry. And what #$%^ing sanctity is left in a marriage anyway … when most couples are sick of waking up with each other, are having affairs left and right, or are going broke with alimony …
Circumcision is once in a life time issue … but what about the daily bickering over credit card bills and picking up groceries. And I have not even mentioned the dreadful in-laws yet … !!! How does one deal with these on daily basis?? And none of this has anything to do with religion … except that the mother-in-law is the closest thing to an anti-christ that I can think of …
I say the mother needs to chill. If circumcision was such a big deal, she should have thought of it in the first place. I guess drinking lots of vinegar and sleeping on her left side did not work. I say, let the kid grow up … and let him do it to himself if he wants. And if he ends up getting an Uzbek catalogue bride, she would do it to him before he knows it ... once she gets her green card. And if he insists on becoming a muslim later on, Urstruly would do it to him anyway … so the mother has nothing to worry about. But if she is not getting enough sex ... and that`s making her irritable, it`s a different issue ...
Urstruly …
... if you can’t talk sense, shut the #$%^ up …
#15 Posted by hamzaad on January 25, 2006 5:38:54 pm
A point of the article seems to be that the author has a good life with the choices that he made or the choices that he let others make. A few more details of him and that delusion can be laid to rest.
His ideas of `ideal` behaviours and answers to complex queries are also problematic. When asked, `what religion am I`, the answer should have been, `Son, how should I know what YOUR religion is`. <-- kaka`s ideal answer.
The following is a particularly idiotic observation:
`He may choose to bring up their children in unbelief but in due time when the children are able to make their own decisions, it’s quite possible that they might choose not to follow in his footsteps.`
.
.
Circumcision is not prescribed by the Quran. It is a semitic practise, creeping its way into medical approval. The argument of bodily mutilation is a good one and all would do well to read up on that.
His ideas of `ideal` behaviours and answers to complex queries are also problematic. When asked, `what religion am I`, the answer should have been, `Son, how should I know what YOUR religion is`. <-- kaka`s ideal answer.
The following is a particularly idiotic observation:
`He may choose to bring up their children in unbelief but in due time when the children are able to make their own decisions, it’s quite possible that they might choose not to follow in his footsteps.`
.
.
Circumcision is not prescribed by the Quran. It is a semitic practise, creeping its way into medical approval. The argument of bodily mutilation is a good one and all would do well to read up on that.
#14 Posted by teshah on January 25, 2006 5:13:07 pm
3 by chaltahai
If Urstruly forgot, `Mein hoon naan`.
If Urstruly forgot, `Mein hoon naan`.
#13 Posted by freethinker on January 25, 2006 5:08:24 pm
nasah:
Dr. Sohail did not calrify the cultural background of the atheist husband. I agree with you it is an important factor to understand his attitude. Dr. Sohail might help to clarify this point if he happened to read your or my post.
Mohammad Gill
Dr. Sohail did not calrify the cultural background of the atheist husband. I agree with you it is an important factor to understand his attitude. Dr. Sohail might help to clarify this point if he happened to read your or my post.
Mohammad Gill
#11 Posted by anil on January 25, 2006 3:56:37 pm
I know of four cases where a muslim woman married a hindu man.
One case, both professionals live in the U.S., the woman became hindu... everything turned out to be fine. She is well respected and loved and has powerful presence in the extended family. Interestingly, woman`s parents accepted it as well. A very happy family.
Second case, both professionals live in the U.S., the woman remained Muslim, and they brought their children giving spritual values of both religions. Girls father was a prominent Muslim justice in Hydrabad. The had made a pact that they will never let a third person interfere or talk to anyone of them alone on issues related to marriage, religion of the children etc. A very happy family.
Third case, muslim woman a prefessional, boy from industrial family, not living in the U.S. Woman chose to remain muslim. A lot of interference from boys rich parents. Destroyed the family.
Fourth case, both professional, live in the U.S., the woman muslim to areligious, and boy hindu to a religious. Parents of the both, accepted each other and adored them as the family member. Boy had a roving eye, destroyed the family. The woman remarried a Pakistani muslim and happy.
I think if the couple are strong, keep outside pressures away, and not let their life turn into a debate, or gossip subject, they will be happier and will feel renewal of the bond more frequently than others couples.
Anil Kapuria
One case, both professionals live in the U.S., the woman became hindu... everything turned out to be fine. She is well respected and loved and has powerful presence in the extended family. Interestingly, woman`s parents accepted it as well. A very happy family.
Second case, both professionals live in the U.S., the woman remained Muslim, and they brought their children giving spritual values of both religions. Girls father was a prominent Muslim justice in Hydrabad. The had made a pact that they will never let a third person interfere or talk to anyone of them alone on issues related to marriage, religion of the children etc. A very happy family.
Third case, muslim woman a prefessional, boy from industrial family, not living in the U.S. Woman chose to remain muslim. A lot of interference from boys rich parents. Destroyed the family.
Fourth case, both professional, live in the U.S., the woman muslim to areligious, and boy hindu to a religious. Parents of the both, accepted each other and adored them as the family member. Boy had a roving eye, destroyed the family. The woman remarried a Pakistani muslim and happy.
I think if the couple are strong, keep outside pressures away, and not let their life turn into a debate, or gossip subject, they will be happier and will feel renewal of the bond more frequently than others couples.
Anil Kapuria
#10 Posted by pmishra2 on January 25, 2006 3:56:24 pm
#5 nasah
Interesting story and a little bit sad...
It is a serious error to think that the USA is ``culturally`` a secular society. It is a christian country with extremely strong ``legal`` rules for managing religous issues. It is legally secular but not culturally secular. The normative direction of a person without faith/agnostic etc. is christian.
This is one reason, why, tho` I am not religous AND in an inter-faith relationship we are careful to expose our kids to our traditions in some detail.
Interesting story and a little bit sad...
It is a serious error to think that the USA is ``culturally`` a secular society. It is a christian country with extremely strong ``legal`` rules for managing religous issues. It is legally secular but not culturally secular. The normative direction of a person without faith/agnostic etc. is christian.
This is one reason, why, tho` I am not religous AND in an inter-faith relationship we are careful to expose our kids to our traditions in some detail.
#9 Posted by mohar11 on January 25, 2006 3:51:30 pm
kaal
It`s a common human fallacy - to get attracted towards the ``big man in the sky``..... tragic but not surprising at all.
It`s a common human fallacy - to get attracted towards the ``big man in the sky``..... tragic but not surprising at all.
#8 Posted by KaalChakra on January 25, 2006 3:30:35 pm
re: nasah # 6
Don`t know why but I find that story quite tragic....a secular man siring children who end up believing in Jesus as mankind`s only savior :)
Don`t know why but I find that story quite tragic....a secular man siring children who end up believing in Jesus as mankind`s only savior :)
#6 Posted by nasah on January 25, 2006 2:40:03 pm
Gill Sahib -- you did not tell us what was the religious or ethnic background of the `unbeliever` husband who was opposed to circumcision -- it would have helped if you did.
one of my Muslim secularist friends from India -- who used to sing ``Hindu nu banega nu mussalman bune gaa -- Insan ki aulad hai insaan bunay gaa`` -- deliberately did not give any religious or ethnic or cultural education to his children whatsoever.
He used to tell me that after partition the killings based on faith made him so mad that he took a vow that when he raises his children they will be neither Muslim nor Hindus
well in USA he did exactly that -- his children became neither Hindus nor Mussalmans...
....but his children`s children became Christians......now how could that happen in a secular upbringing???
.....because the PARENTS of his children`s SPOUSES had sung another song to THEIR children -- Hindu nu banaygaa nu Mussulman bunay gaa -- Issai ki aulad hai Issai bunay gaa...........:)
luckily the `unbeleiving` man believes children are children whether they are Hindus, Mussalmans, Christian, Jews Sikh Buddhists or Pagans etc etc.....to sleep better at night....:)
one of my Muslim secularist friends from India -- who used to sing ``Hindu nu banega nu mussalman bune gaa -- Insan ki aulad hai insaan bunay gaa`` -- deliberately did not give any religious or ethnic or cultural education to his children whatsoever.
He used to tell me that after partition the killings based on faith made him so mad that he took a vow that when he raises his children they will be neither Muslim nor Hindus
well in USA he did exactly that -- his children became neither Hindus nor Mussalmans...
....but his children`s children became Christians......now how could that happen in a secular upbringing???
.....because the PARENTS of his children`s SPOUSES had sung another song to THEIR children -- Hindu nu banaygaa nu Mussulman bunay gaa -- Issai ki aulad hai Issai bunay gaa...........:)
luckily the `unbeleiving` man believes children are children whether they are Hindus, Mussalmans, Christian, Jews Sikh Buddhists or Pagans etc etc.....to sleep better at night....:)
#5 Posted by bbabu on January 25, 2006 2:13:30 pm
Urstruly #2
`` Islam strictly prohibits marrying a Kaffir i.e. atheist. Therefore, in first case, mentioned in this article, the marriage did not take place if the man openly declares his religion of ```unbelief``. The Muslim woman has been living in sin and must separate from this man immediately. She must seek forgiveness from Allah for committing this grave sin knowingly or unknowingly. The Muslim community must help her find a suitable Muslim as a spouse. ``
I am sure this is worst thing you could find on this planet
`` Islam strictly prohibits marrying a Kaffir i.e. atheist. Therefore, in first case, mentioned in this article, the marriage did not take place if the man openly declares his religion of ```unbelief``. The Muslim woman has been living in sin and must separate from this man immediately. She must seek forgiveness from Allah for committing this grave sin knowingly or unknowingly. The Muslim community must help her find a suitable Muslim as a spouse. ``
I am sure this is worst thing you could find on this planet
#4 Posted by pmishra2 on January 25, 2006 11:39:50 am
[quote]
S described an interesting case of one of his friends. Baidar Bakht, his friend who is an engineer and a writer, is a Muslim from India. His wife, Anita, comes from a Hindu family. Bakht’s daughter asked him one day, “Dad, what religion am I?” Bakht told her, “Look, you have an opportunity to learn about three religions in your life: your father’s religion, Islam, your mother’s religion, Hinduism, and your friends’ religion, Christianity. Why don’t you learn the basics of all three religions and not make a decision yet. When you become old enough then you can choose your own religion. There aren’t very many people who get a chance like that.”
[quote]
Isssssh. Truly disgusting. Only people from a fascist and depraved culture like hinudisthan could behave like this. Thank goodness in Iran, Saudi Arabi and Pakistan this kind of filth is not tolerated.
And this baidar bakht is a muslim? A descendant of lusty warriors? Sucking up to his kafir wife like a hindu hijra! ooooof, it would be enough to drive me mad. Who knows he may even have idols of kuli maaaa or savfratoiri devi in his house!!
He should tell her to convert or get rid of her double quick. The idols should be destroyed in front of the children and the great example of Abraham recalled. Of course, the kids should remain with the father and follow the correct path. Any sane person would see that as the only possible path.
Urstruly: why not offer your services directly?? What are you waiting for.
S described an interesting case of one of his friends. Baidar Bakht, his friend who is an engineer and a writer, is a Muslim from India. His wife, Anita, comes from a Hindu family. Bakht’s daughter asked him one day, “Dad, what religion am I?” Bakht told her, “Look, you have an opportunity to learn about three religions in your life: your father’s religion, Islam, your mother’s religion, Hinduism, and your friends’ religion, Christianity. Why don’t you learn the basics of all three religions and not make a decision yet. When you become old enough then you can choose your own religion. There aren’t very many people who get a chance like that.”
[quote]
Isssssh. Truly disgusting. Only people from a fascist and depraved culture like hinudisthan could behave like this. Thank goodness in Iran, Saudi Arabi and Pakistan this kind of filth is not tolerated.
And this baidar bakht is a muslim? A descendant of lusty warriors? Sucking up to his kafir wife like a hindu hijra! ooooof, it would be enough to drive me mad. Who knows he may even have idols of kuli maaaa or savfratoiri devi in his house!!
He should tell her to convert or get rid of her double quick. The idols should be destroyed in front of the children and the great example of Abraham recalled. Of course, the kids should remain with the father and follow the correct path. Any sane person would see that as the only possible path.
Urstruly: why not offer your services directly?? What are you waiting for.
#2 Posted by Urstruly on January 25, 2006 11:19:55 am
Islam strictly prohibits marrying a Kaffir i.e. atheist. Therefore, in first case, mentioned in this article, the marriage did not take place if the man openly declares his religion of ```unbelief``. The Muslim woman has been living in sin and must separate from this man immediately. She must seek forgiveness from Allah for committing this grave sin knowingly or unknowingly. The Muslim community must help her find a suitable Muslim as a spouse.
#1 Posted by chaltahai on January 25, 2006 11:03:35 am
ullu, non-belief is a belief as well. Start there and work backwards...
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