Why Aren’t Muslim Women Converting to Christianity?

I have a simple question: why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting to Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any ‘ism’ for that matter?

You must be joking Boss that you dont know the answer of this simple question.

what`s this - a trick question?... only if you have a death-wish will you try to convert from islam to anything else.....

``why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting to Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any ‘ism’ for that matter?``


You article is bogus because it is based upon this question whose simple answer is given in one line-

Answer- Because every muslim women faces the deterrence in the form of Death penalty for Apostasy from every zealous muslim !!!

Dear Author,

Hope you have got the answer at #2 and #3 below for your simple question.

WOw, this article really takes the cake. You really want to know: because any converts would be ostracized, abused and probably murdered.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000356.php

Egypt: Christian who married Muslim convert captured trying to flee
More of the celebrated Islamic tolerance for other religions comes from Egypt: ``A Coptic Christian secretly married to a woman convert from Islam was arrested for the second time last week while trying to leave Egypt for Canada.`` This from Compass Direct.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/14689.htm

BRITISH CONVERTS FROM ISLAM: CHRISTIAN LEADERS MUST SPEAK OUT


Some 3,000 Christians in the UK are in danger because they have chosen to convert from Islam. Some are being actively harassed and persecuted, but many church leaders seem more interested in defending their attackers than in standing up for the rights of the converts.


Nissar Hussain, a Christian from Bradford, has suffered three years of harassment, amounting effectively to persecution, from the local Muslims in his neighbourhood. His car has been torched and rammed, bricks have been thrown through his window on many occasions, there have been threats to burn the house down, and much else besides. Mr Hussain and his wife were originally Muslims, and this is the reason for the treatment they are getting.

Apart from the other reasons, perhaps they aren`t converting because they don`t want to trade one patriarchial religion for another. Jeeze! You`re asking this question around the time when someone was condemned to die for converting to Christianity. The price of apostasy is death. Which Muslim woman unless she lives in a vacuum (with no over-zealous parents and brothers and other community members) is going to convert?

I am no fan of Christianity or any religion for that matter but few other religions say someone should die (or if they convert they must be insane) for making this basic choice. Let`s get real.

Is the author sure that nobody wants to leave Islam???

Check it out here.

[....(the word used should be reverting because we as Muslims believe that every human being is born in a state of submission to God, therefore revert instead of convert is a more appropriate term....]

so everybody is born a muslim by default - all they have to do is ``revert`` back to the the true faith....
++++

are you pakis running some kind m0r0n factory in karachi or somewhere - you guys produce so many blathering idiots at alarming regularity......I mean every other day - there is a new paki blabbering absolute nonsense about islam this, islam that....

Unbelievable.....

writer, welcome to the gallows.

mohar11:
are you pakis running some kind m0r0n factory in karachi or somewhere ``:

yea.. it is at Korangi Industrial Area.


``I mean every other day - there is a new paki blabbering absolute nonsense about islam this, islam that``

i see a plot for ``Muslim American Psycho`` where christian bale character gives himself to submission and starts doing ``my facial-hair cut is better than yours`` with other muslim yuppies in the local mosque.

I have been attending this mosque for over six years now. I have seen hundereds of people coming to mosque and reverting back to Islam on regular basis. Normally there is at least one reversion every week and sometimes more. But over the years I have seen the trend change. The change is in the mix of people who revert. Prior to 9/11 it was usually young black males who were predominently among those wo reverted. I hardly saw a black woman ever revert. Right after 9/11 the trend changed and a healthy mix of white males add up to the blacks. That surprised me a lot since after 9/11 Muslims were a persecuted minority and hated by everyone. But in the past two and half years or so this trend further changed when now the overwhelming majority of reversions are those of white females. This is even more surprising when Western propaganda machinery in its full force and fury is trying to prove that Muslim woman is the lowliest creature on this planet.

Our Imam Sahib is a very mild mannered Arab. He is the humblest person I have ever seen. He is the main driving force behind most of reversions. I find it strange too, because he is not very fluent in English and he speaks in a very strange accent that is neither Arab nor from anywhere else I have ever heard of. I think he has invented his own accent. Same thing goes with his Arabic accent which is even stranger. He is not an orator at all but he speaks in very simple terms and softly but everything he says just gets absorbed into his audience. This is a strange phenomenon for me too. I guess it is not the oratory power that counts but it is sincerity. For example last year when hurricane Caterina hit, most of the congregation was not willing to do anything for the people whom they perceived as hating them so much. But Imam Sahib is one heck of a guy. He just gave us a five minute speach on `the victims are human beings first and then anything else` and with in a week we were sending containers of medical supplies, food, diapers, and blankets to Lousinana. On the other hand when earthquake hit Pakistan he persuaded congregation to raise an equivalent of 1 crore rupees in the first 3 or four days.

But this soft spoken man when talks about the on going persecution of Muslims he seems to reflect a persona that has nerves of steels. When a weeping mother requests him to ask congregation for a prayer for her son who just ``disappeared`` he always advices his congregation to do the right thing, obey the law, and have faith in Allah.

But Urstruly, how do you explain the prediction of Mohammad saying that as the end of the world nears, number of faithfuls would decrease until the dynamic duo of mehdi and jesus would show up to re-revert everyone back and ``manage`` those who wont?

By your observation it seems the rate of reversion is increasing not decreasing which is kind of the opposite. interesting.

Raw

Au contraire the Prophecy in fact says that when that time comes Muslims will be great in numbers, however, they will become the lowliest of people in this world.

It is my own assumption and I might be wrong that the promised Mesiah (pbuh) cannot do anything by himself unless he leads a large number of righteous people in the struggle against oppression. After all the affairs of world obey the natural laws of physics and common sense. Let me explain it by an example. Consider Pakistan, which is overwhelmingly a Muslim dominated state but politically the Muslims in Pakistan itself have zero political clout. Every individual in this country is either a victim of a vicious circle of oppression by corruption, crime, and state terror or he himself is a part of this oppressive machinery;(It does not matter whether he dons a beard or not. ). This despite the fact that overwhelming majority of Pakistani Muslims is righteous, peaceful, and law abiding. But these people, who are righteous have no one to lead them. They have become a flock without a shepered. The situation has gotten so worst that state machinery of terror has started assassinating whoever was left in a leacership position. The evidence of the recent assasinations of Muslim leaders in Nishtar Park and on going assassination of 150+ ulemas in the last 5-6 years alone. A similar situation exists in every other Muslim country. I believe that the words of the Prophecy are absolutely true given the situation.

For someone who refuses to understand women`s plight let us accept the fact that despite all those sugar coated statements the actual policing starts at their home itself and the close relatives are the biggest threat to the women trying to follow her conscience.......

The Times April 14, 2006


Teenager killed his sister for living a Western life
From Roger Boyes in Berlin



AYHAN SURUCU was so angry when his sister started to wear make-up and date German men that he put a gun to her head at a bus stop and killed her.
The 18-year-old Turk fired three bullets into her brain and calmly walked away.



Boys at a nearby school, attended mainly by the children of immigrant Muslim families, cheered and applauded when news of the murder reached them.

The so-called “honour killing” of Hatun Surucu, 23, last year shocked Germany and sparked intense debate about a conservative Muslim immigrant community at odds with a secular society.

That anger was rekindled yesterday when Surucu, a minor when the murder took place, was sentenced to nine years and three months by a Berlin court, considered lenient by many Germans.

His brothers, Alpaslan, 25, and Mutlu, 26, were acquitted because of lack of evidence, at which friends and family in the courtroom cheered. The prosecution had sought life sentences for their part in the murder of their sister.

Passing judgment, Michael Degrif said: “It is inconceivable that someone can be killed for living a Western lifestyle.”

Although she was brought up in Germany, Hatun was forced into a marriage with her Turkish cousin in east Anatolia. The marriage broke up and she returned to Berlin with her five-year-old child to live the life of a young German woman: going to discos, renting a small apartment, taking lovers and starting an apprenticeship as an electrician. She abandoned the traditional headscarf and wore fashionable jeans. Her three brothers were upset, as was her father.

The state prosecutor had demanded that all three brothers be convicted. Ayhan, the youngest, had confessed to pulling the trigger but according to the prosecutor the two others had stood guard and obtained the murder weapon. They denied any involvement.

The evidence of a crown witness, a Turkish girl who wore a bullet-proof vest when she stood in the witness stand, was deemed yesterday to be too flimsy for a conviction. Only Ayhan, 19, was jailed after admitting that he wanted to “wipe the stain from our family”.

There are 40 “honour killings” a year in Germany and most of them result from the failure of an arranged marriage, which are illegal in the country.

I would say that it is time for pay back- how about some women wiping off the `stain` from their family by killing these men who stray regularly..........

Q: Why aren’t Muslim Women Converting to Christianity?

A: One religion or other, it is the same garbage. So many muslim women in west normally stop practising the religion instead of changing it and creating a controversy by announcing it publically.

Also, muslim women just like muslim men try to adopt a lifestyle that fulfills their needs but doesn`t take them much away from traditional islamic framework. So, they will date, have extra-marital sex, go to disocs and nightclubs etc. But they will not drink and they will prefer eating halal. And when it will come to their interaction with their community members, they will behave exactly the same way as they are expected to do as good muslim women. After all, they have to live with their own people also...

Urstruly:
okay. thanks for that explaination. With the repeated mentions of increase of vice(bayhayayi), i must have misread it as a total loss of faith among muslims. So, as i understand, Jesus will come to revitalize the institution of Caliphate and to rally the muslim masses. ok.

Nishter Park Tragedy:
you think it was orchestrated by Bush proxies in Pakistan, i.e., Pakistan Army? Is that your impression or you got this info from somewhere (i.e., hearsay, news reports, eyewitness accounts etc.)?

>> There is something special about Islam
Which Islam?

Another confused article by somebody who is pleasantly living in the US. I would like to ask the author: Where is true Islam? Because living in the west and performing some rituals to please god here doesnt make sense.

My wife and I left Islam several years ago. But we did not make it public for fear of being peresecuted and ostracised, and to protect other relatives from being killed by Islamofascists. We did not convert to another religion; we became freethinkers. The feeling of liberation from Islam is exhilerating.

To the author of this article I say, lift the death penalty on apostasy, let people decide for themselves, and then come back to this forum with your childish questions.

> despite open prejudice and harassment to some degree, Islam is spreading .....

O wise one - I understand your suffering in this land .... but fear not, your time will come
(one way or the other) ...

> I am baffled when I see slow dancing couples in an EID program ....
Ha Ha Ha Ha .... as someone famous said-your time will come (one way or the other)...

> in Muslim societies and women are not considered merely a sex-toy .....
Ha Ha Ha Ha ..... modiji kehte hain - hum paanch hamare pachees :)

> therefore revert instead of convert is a more appropriate term ....
Sirjee , mmmkaya - the correct term is ``Mutate``. This revertion / convertion happens in
H0m0 Sapiens. That poor afghan guy tried to demutate back into a h0m0 sapien from a
h0m0 islamus.

By the way that Korangi park post was fun..

What I`m surprised at is that this article actually made it to the Front Page. Not exactly a stellar example of writing or analysis, is it? Or was it just put here so that people would make fun of the rather clueless author and have a huge debate about the horror of apostasy from Islam, fling insults at each other, and drive the hit rate into the six hundreds?
Ho-hum.

Re: # 19
> ...and drive the hit rate into the six hundreds?
That is correct.

Bina Shah:
islamic analysis is like decoding a message with your personal cyphers. If your private cypher works then everything makes sense approaching cosmic illumination, if not then the ``analysis`` would look like anything but ``stellar``, white-noise is more like it.

Besides, horror of killing apostates and quasi-apostates (shias and barelvis) is very much a current issue.

#21 even white noise has some regular properties associated with it......coloured noise is more closer...

I think the question we should ask is why so many Westerners are entering Islam?
I think it is because Islam has a living and thriving spirituality which has more or less died out in any of the other major religions.

Re: # 16

The matter became suspect when Pakistani news media, quoting GOP officials, started disseminating information that the attack was a suicide attack, within half an hour of the incident.

I investigated the matter further and found the following facts.

1. Soon after explosion people started throwing stones at police and police could not enter premises for three hours. So how was it determined that attack was a suicide attack.

2. On ARY`s news on views Dr. Shahid Masud recently interviewed Rauf Siddiqui who is the Interior Minister of Sindh and was in charge of security at Nishtar Park. He whemently claimed that the podium was cleared by bomb squad three days before the occassion and the only way left was that a suicide bomber went in and exploded himself.

3. He further elabotrated that the stage was approximately 7-8 feet high from the ground but he had hard time explaining how this suicide bomber`s shrapnels hit people on the stage who were offering prayer at the time. According to him the bomber when came close to the stage he jumped like a monkey ``bandar ki tarah uchla (his exact words)`` so that he could strike people on the stage.

4. He was unable to answer as to what happened to the video footage that was being photographed.

5. He failed to answer why people caught a man running ``away`` or (towrads) the stage holding someone`s head after the explosion and where was that man now.

6. The photographs of the stage available on the google indicate that bomb was planted at the level of the stage but away from the stage so that the shrapnels hit the people praying on the stage and that also damaged the carpet overhanging on the side of the stage. This disproves the theory that suicider jumped close to the stage. In that case wooden stage should have been damaged as well.

7. Sunni tehrik from the day one maintains that the attack was not a suicide attack. This is based on the evidence of the people witnessing the whole thing.

8. Police deliberately did not cordone off the impact site for the next three days and let the forensic evidence get destroyed, stolen, or corrupted. Which is highly unusual given the instructions from the high masters.

9. Every civilian testicle of the cabinet is going out of the way to stress that the attack was a suicide attack, even Musharaf himself had to come to media and stress on that.

10. And last of all, if it is the work of ``Islamists`` then shouldn`t they be striking the kanjar khanas around the city but we see no such attack ever. Why?

Re: # 22

You racist slob!!! :-)

Irfan.

Only the 200-lb dykes with the butch haircut are embracing Islam.

Re: # 23
Sufi and Shia Islam, perhaps. But the most famous version of Islam, and one whose adherants shout the loudest, Salafism/Whabbism, has no spirituality whatsoever. It is just blind faith and the carrying out of a meaningless set of endless rituals. And the treatment of women and followers of other faiths as animals.

(Do not know about other religions, so will not comment).

Ahmer -

I liked your confronting approach is this opinion piece. You seem to be tough on your surroundings. I am glad Chowk is bringing up opinions to the front page. It`s always more interesting to read opinions/views than historical analysis/thesis reviews. They give us a different perspective. I do not agree with a lot of your points, but I am amused to read them.

[On the flip side we see a culture transforming in front of our eyes in Pakistan. I am baffled when I see slow dancing couples in an EID program. Can it get any more disrespectful?]

This is sad. At least, the dancing couples are engaged in a collaborative exercise than filling their tummies with sweets and food and drinks on Eid. If human beings are adding romance to their lives as part of an Eid festivity, what`s wrong with that? There has to be some romance in life. Islam does not ask couples to eliminate romance from their lives and be dull morons. Dancing is just a display of emotions and flow of energy. Most of the people dance out of joy and felicity. By the way, latin dances symbolize life and vivacity. The smooth ones are romantic, and can be classy. Probably, the couples were renewing their vows in the process of dancing. Were you envious of them? If the man dancing with the woman had no issues, then you as a spectator had no right to feel bad. I just hope you did not try to influence him. That can be considered a major sin. Let Muslims enjoy their lives. If you do not subscribe to certain themes and displays of affection and romance, then you do not have to follow those. Make sure you are with someone who thinks like you. I am sure there is no dearth of people who think like you. I am positive that there are women who will worship your pavitur vichaar :)

Urstruly:
Your research sounds like very similar to the shady ways of police and law enforcement in karachi, so no surprises there. I think, even getting a suicide-bomber for this horrible deed shouldnt be difficult for the villains in your analysis.

{``Why Aren’t Muslim Women Converting to Christianity?``}

Muzammil Sahib,
Because not everyone wants to live in Italy. :)

I will be back to provide serious feedback to your article. Thanks.

Dear writer,

Emotional attachment can blurr the vision and at times lead to data mining. Your data base has a survivorship bias i.e., you can enter the world of Islam, but cannot leave without having your head chopped off.

#24 by Urstruly

Your reasoning seems to indicate it was `not` a suicide attack and the administration is trying to coverup something. What is that something in your opinion?

First of all your conclusion is completely different to the title of your essay. I thought we were talking about Muslim women converting to Islam?

Second of all, statistics are never a 100% accurate; there is tendency towards decontextualization of the issue. Therefore, bringing context back into the discussion posed in your title; My question is how are you so sure about this? Are you actually stating that in the history of the world no Muslim woman has ever converted to Christianity? I know three women, and they`re both from Karachi. But, it’s never publicized, out of fear. Like domestic violence, this is another issue Muslim would keep silent about.

Thirdly, the point that I have a problem with is when you state:

``I guess what he is saying is that Islam doesn’t put emphasis on the “HOTNESS” of a woman, but rather on her character``

So are you implying that Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism etc emphasize that a woman must dress up as sexily as possible to be virgin and saint like? What are you talking about?! Christianity and Judaism belong to the Abrahamic religions, they believe in the same Prophets as muslims do, you should give them respect in your melodramatic arguments.

Your perception of the world is divided by either Islam, or sexual perversion.

For people like you, every act that is performed in expression of ones identity-much like what serious Muslims attend to achieve- that is different from your principles, is not just wrong, but in fact a sexual perversion.

If you want to educate people about the magnificent nature of Islam, then you will have to try to state your ideas without insulting other religions, misinterpretating them by deeming them inferior and perverting the actions of a modern individual. It is not your right or place.

muslim women are leaving submission (islam) all the time..every time they dont wear the right dress, go out without mehram, be friends with a kaffir, dont give chanda to jihadis organizations, dont accept getting beaten ever so lightly, not keep the fast, drink, eat non-halal, defy their husbands and many other things.

better vigilance is needed to ensure that this stops.

Re: # 33
> I know three women, and they`re both from Karachi ...
i believe, 2 of the three are twins .... :)

> But, it’s never publicized, out of fear ...
Heyyyy, take away the fear and what do you have !


Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake

Geetanjali.

Sir,
you dont have your bearings right.

Any Muslim in an Islamic country would be killed without any second thought if he/she converts or rather says that they do not believe in Mohmamad.

Is that not enough a reason for anyone to consider it?

Now, let us evaluate your point about status of woman on Islamic countries.
None of the Islamic countries let woman in decision making roles or positions of prominence ever(some exceptions do exist). From their birth till their death they are only told Islam and it`s virtues and any crticism is stubbornly quashed. In your country(Pakistan) itself, what is the official history taught? Where is the room of plularism in Islam?

I have been searching and searching and yet no light in sight.

Islam is a religion of peace and woman have more rights than anywhere else and all that .....is very old logic, frankly does not work anymore.

Most likely in next few decades Muslim immigrant to more liberal societies will question the legality of Fundoos and spur a revolution, whether you like it or not. It is inevitable. Salahddin is no longer capable of fighting George Bush and his Armies and convert the whole world to Islam(Dar-Ul-Islam).

#32 Zeemax

There are two ways to argue this:

1. We give GOp the benefit of doubt.

We can argue that SOBs of GOP as usual have no clue as to who did tthis act but they tried to cash brownie points through this incident by blaming it on their enemies against whom they are fighting a very active war. This of course has backfired because it goes against the common sense that the very people against whom this regime is fighting would do such an act against the very people from whom former get all kind of moral and physical support.

2. We do not give GOP the benefit of doubt:

In this case, and evidence also suggest to that, that GOP has at least full knowldge about the people who did this if it was not one of its own agency. The GOP in this case may not have known in advance but now they know. The whement propaganda that GOP`s civilian undelings have spewed tells that they are being fingered to ``reach out `` to their ``constituencies`` (its not a fukking joke) and tow the government line. Otherwise, why would the Ch. Shujaat, who has absolutely no business in this would go out of the way while the investigation is still pending.

``I have a simple question: why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting``

Are you being serious? I`m sure you know the penalty for apostasy in Islam.. as countless others have enlightened you about already. Just curious... don`t you find it somewhat odd asking why people aren`t converting out of Islam, when it`s made all too obvious in Muslim countries that they`ll probably be killed? Don`t you think it goes against individuality to disallow someone from believing or disbelieving in whatever he sees fit?


``in Islam men and women both have specific rights and responsibilities. She further explains that the gender roles are well defined in Muslim societies and women are not considered merely a sex-toy. She goes on to say that Islam gives women uncanny respect in society, especially in the roles of mother, sister, daughter and wife``

Historically.. whether Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.. we`ve all been patriarchal societies. However, among conservative Muslims there`s still a very strong obsession with the ``character`` of a woman. It`s hypocrisy, my dear friend.. let the boys do all they want. But make sure the girls stay at home, don`t talk to boys, don`t go out anywhere, learn to cook, leave the room when a male visitor enters, lower your eyes... blah blah... This is 2006, wake up and smell the coffee..

I really wish you`d go visit Abu Dhabi someday... the conservatism, which is almost always selectively applied to the women, is just stifling..


``I am baffled when I see slow dancing couples in an EID program. Can it get any more disrespectful? If this is not a mockery of our religious events, I don’t know what is?``

Just curious... are you upset primarily because this was happening at an Eid Milan? Or are you against couples slow dancing in general? So, in your opinion, romance is against religion?

Why can`t you understand that people want to enjoy their lives. First and foremost. It is very commendable to be religious and whatnot... but that is something private. Whether Hindu or Muslim, Sikh or Parsee... no-one wants to be told by a self-righteous gaggle of geese what they should and shouldn`t do.

Re: # 33
Catfischblues
For the sake of contributing humour to a grave discussion I would like to point out that , three women cannot both be from Karachi..-)
Yours in earnest ( the importance of being which is yet unknown)

Chacha,

If there is a minimum age for driving, military service, smoking, drinking, sex, marriage..etc.., it is because all these are decisions that need to be taken by those who are responsible enough to understand what they are doing, what it entails, what it will require and what the consequences might be.. these are all decisions that affect your life.

Arguably, religion is something that affects peoples lives profoundly. Does it not make sense then, to require that everyone should only be able to choose their religion once they turn 21, for example? Instead of being brainwashed from birth about their own superiority.. let them figure it out for themselves..


No offence, but people who want to impose restrictive covenants with a religious excuse like yourself are making one`s individual identity inescapable... in the way a prison cell is inescapable. People like you make religion a pretext to order around those who won`t otherwise conform to your diktats.

Sir, human beings have seen countless examples of self-righteous people like you wreaking havoc on humanity. What`s weird is that there are people out there who think like you.. and think you`ve got it down perfectly. If anything, the ludicrousness of your regulations (no dancing.. no romance.. etc..) should open their eyes.

These are ancient rules sir.. whatever the great religions of the world chalked down millenia ago are modern nonsenses. Stop trying to police peoples liberties and behaviour.. there are more important things that the world needs to worry about..

One of the question was:

Why are so many Westerners converting to Islam?

To prevent another 9/11. The CIA has claimed publicly that they had technology but no one on the inside to provide them with sensitive details. Well now they are correcting this problem and will have quite a number of agents inside these cells.

And if you really are in American then do us a favour and go back to the land of pure and convert those that really need converting.

You`re a sad individual.

all your high fluting talk of your version of Islam that accords ``RESPECT`` to the `CHARACTER`` but not the ``HOTNESS`` of women --

goes down the drain --

when your version of unadulterated Islam promotes the ``HOTNESS`` of a Man to marry FOUR women – but NOT the “CHARACTER ” of a Woman to marry FOUR husbands -- of course on the ‘very rigid condition’ -- that the woman treats each husband with complete equality.......

lemme say this to the author – that your version of Islam that you would like to hang on to – without Manji’s “innovations” – respects neither the character of the MAN nor the character of the WOMAN.....period

More Questions!

Why did mongols as Conquerers embraced Islam-- the creed & sharia of the conquered?

Why did muslims, when given the choice to convert, die or leave spain chose to not convert .

Why there are buddhists & hindus around anyway? why did they not become ``red`` Indians or aborigines as in the americas...and either perish or convert .

and and and!

Why the ones from the ``advanced`` & ``modern`` lands are converting in huge huge numbers, to Islam of course, especialy from the top strata of society. Converting to a creed, the adherents of which are in a dump & are the most vilified ones on the planet.

Why are there so many jews & christians who thrived in former muslim empire & and are still doing so in present muslim lands.

P.S:The silence of muslim women, who abandoned Islam, is really eloquent here on this anonymous forum. No apostasy fear here--come on! create even a new nic & blast the muslims here . Who said there is no free-thinking opportunities for the tormented souls.

Only that the hindus here in huge numbers feel the onus to answer is simply a travesty. Let`s hear from muslim women `` why are they not converting to --anything``?

P.S It would now be nice to see the ``red`` Indian dance now. Let there be a hindu-muslim riot on chowk & may the inter-act ratings soar.

echoboom:
for your exclusive consumption. Here is a sample of apostates, women including:

Testimonials Link


Wama Alyena Ill`al Bala`gh

as to the question – “Why Aren’t Muslim Women Converting to Christianity?” – may I ask -- Why Aren’t Muslim Men Converting to Christianity? – in Afghanistan….

Please folks get rid of this cockamamie story – this debilitating delusion from you mind -- that there is some thing SPECIAL about the fundamentalist Bedouin Islam – that is terribly attractive to Western Blonds and Brunettets –

it is NOT –

medieval Islam is as ORDINARY and as unattractive as medieval Christianity, medieval Judaism, or medieval Hinduism……and we do need cosmetologist like Manjis, Naumanis to give a pretty face to our unkempt fundamentalist hirsute Islam…

…..it does need some ‘hajamut’ – folks -- it does

and in the make up department who can do a better job than these “HOT” women like Irshad Manjis and Asra Naumanis…….

...... the reason most women (and men) don`t convert is because :

a) most people are intellectually lazy to really think about why they believe what they believe
b) your religion is like a bad habit - it is hard to shake
c) most people don`t want to loose their friends and family over something this trivial
d) the options are equally bad and some even worse
e) they think that they will be struck by a thunder bolt if they piss off al-lah, or whoever it is that they worship
f) they look at the hindoos, scratch their heads and move on ............

Raw-Dust: 44

I know that site & a 100 more.

Of course there will always be some; have always been. Nothing is new under the sun or chowk.

Much more ``interesting`` and ``colorful`` characters have been there during muslim khilafah period as well. The apostate Akbar, for example, who is considered a muslim by a lot of simple folk.

No one excels at hounding out muslims and declaring them kaffirs--than muslims themselves. So rest easy--the ummah has been fully honed & hammered by its own. No outside gloating or cajoling is needed. It rebouded immediately after atheist Russia unfolded. Muslims throughout their history have been steeled & tempered by their own & outsiders. It is called net-practice in Allah-talk.

Now please go back to your atheist heaven & jerk yourself silly.

Sunnis become shias --to get exempt from Zakat.
Shias adopt taqqiyyaa to get & retain power & prestige
Ismailis pose as shias or muslims whenever expediency summons--otherwise they proudly say: me Ismaili; you muslim.
Liberal -loose/Afraid muslims decide to call themselves with christian sounding names to survive in a hostile, racist, and cruel world.

and also some muslim women DO adjust , adopt & adapt.

The times they are a` tough Raw Dust: It is O.K by me, if one adjusts till the night is over. Not all are made of stainless-teel

But why the hell those who already have everything would want to join a bunch of ``losers`` in every sense of ofmaterial wealth and comfort?

That, my dear, is the Million Dinar question.

Dear writer

Your article depicts your mind which in my opinion is not Islamic, but is representation of patriarchy. In Pakistan a new religion called Islam has emerged with all it`s pseudo Sharia which is nothing but to victimize already oppressed women more and more to the extent that they become insane and their IQ becomes dull by brainwashing them daily each and every second of their suffering lives that they are their Husbands, fathers, brothers and sons slaves. They are always reminded that they are sent by GOD just to please men without even thinking about what pleases them? Very good.

This is the fate they are born with and this the fate they have to put up with and this is the fate they will die with. Always they are reminded they are sinners and guilty of some unknown crimes and they have to be punished.

They are forced to wear terrible baggy clothing and some head scarf or some Hijab just to make them more oppressed. It is like life long imprisonment for those poor creatures, who have to obey no matter what?

They are advised not to mingle up with kafir women without hijab b/c if they will do so they will have to suffer in hell just to see those Kafirs. WoW. This is the best.

Majority of Muslim women are victims of their male counterparts and they must be liberated with progressive ideology. They have every right to please themselves the way their men do.

Their kind of Islam is an embodiment of all things anti- women. Their type of pseudo Islam is a third rated fascism which procreates nothing but women hate and is called berated Neo-Islam with only one propagenda to oppress and suppress women more and more to make their brains functionless with below 0 IQ. They need slaves, they don`t need their bright and productive female counterparts. They have made them Ninjas, so that whenever younger kids see them they call them Ninjas and get scared. Mockery!

Muslim women have become downtrodden at the hands of their males. They are the victims of discrimination, they don`t have equal access to the opportunities, by force they get married and are forced to have many, many children for the pleasure of their husbands.

Not only that most of the times they have to face the horrendous dilemma of choosing between their Neo Islamic garb and their employment. Well, I have seen some Hijabie women working with their Islamic garb, but they still suffer this discrimination.

Those Hijabie women have become an international slogan of oppression just b/c they are made to suffer all this hatred at the hands of their own male counter parts. In this kind of Islam they hate women. Oh, Yes Sir they do.

These poor, oppressed women must be saved from this convoluted kind of cult,called neo Islam which gives them nothing ,but suffocating hijab, blame games, guilt, objections at every second of their miserable lives and denies the basic right of their recognition as equal, Humanbeing, which considers them Half men or half human being. What a logic!! Bravo.
This new kind of convoluted Islam brings nothing but mal- treatment of women. That is the reason almost all western women have ISLAMOPHOBIA. Why go far? Even majority of born , progressive Muslim women are extremely ISLAMOPHOBIC. B/c this the way this twisted Islam has been presented in front of International community. Wonderful job, Mullahs. Keep it up!

The experiences of western and so called hijabie Muslim women are totally different. I have observed through out my life by interacting with women from both sides. Western women are completely satisfied with their equality with men in everything, whereas Muslim hijabie women are simply the victims of terror and oppression.

The basic difference with western and these hijabie muslim women is, former don`t discuss their religions every moment that they breath, for them religion is their own personal choice. My own experience is western women never like to discuss religions, they have other more sensible day to day activities which make them happy. Whereas my interaction with hijabie Muslim women only based on their reminding me of Islam, Islam and Islam like a parrot echoleliaing their pseudo and highly unimpressive selfish and bogus agenda. Always reminding me that i am sinner, i am not wearing hijab, I am kafir, i am this and I am that, GOD will give me punishment ... and at the end i always leave with a big burden at my heart , mind and soul. with more restlessness and depression on the fact that which direction these hijabie women are going to? with NO logic, wasting their IQs with this useless propaganda and brainwashing ,with ZERO contributions to their poor and oppressed women.

For some reason, they remind me of some pseudo feminists in the West who have their own selfish agendas with absolutely NO interest in the betterment of poor women without basic rights of food, shelter and clothes.

Well, I call them two sides of one coin, no matter which side you flip, you are dealing with the same coin.

Anyway, these hijabies have full garbs covering them from head to toe, but majority of their poor sisters are still suffering without proper clothings. And they are unable to provide them Islamic garbs. Funny , haan, very funny............

These hijabie women are made so much oppressed that they have become passive aggressive, with their roles, they have accepted that this is what they are supposed to do and this is what they are made for. And irony is they are unable to see how oppressive their choice is!!! Wonderful.

A complete flop of minds. No more power of independent thoughts to maintain their uniqueness and individuality. Just like herds of sheep................

I also agree if these hijabie ladies chose to wear and lead their lives the way they wish,but then they should not spread hatred against progressive and western women with their false agendas. Every second of their lives they accuse western women and western society as pornographic, full of voyeurism and exploitation against women.

There is a big gap among western and hijabie women, which neither of them agree to squeeze.

There are some general issues as for as women treatment is concerned regardless of any religion and region, which are violence, equal employment discrimination and lack of respect from their male counterparts. These are the challenges which women have to face. No matter east or west. No matter hijabie or Western women.

The solution of all these problems absolutely doesn`t lie in their contruded neo Islam. Yes, I applaud western societies for taking steps forward and for improving these situations to give respect to women as individuals and to accept each of them as unique and as separate bright human being, NOT just Half Human.

Solution for such problems is not in making these women prisoners for the rest of their lives and to enslave them without giving them any chance to flourish their minds and personalities and to come up with their own independent polished and sharp sense of a complete human being, not just a COMMODITY to please their male counter parts only.

These women are the preys of patriarchy, these poor souls should be saved from the clutches of this failed system, called NEO Islam.....................

Very well written. Thanks

100% agree with you.

echboom:
you asked for something in #43 - you got it. now, relax. :-)

and for that million dinar question - I dont know, maybe they experienced some invisible light of Truth in Islam, good for them.

I disagree with the writer that western women are being more attracted towards Islam. This is so lame.

What I am seeing in this article is mispresentations and a lots of stereotyping with a unidirectional mind set which leads us to a dead end with out any thought provoking or soul searching humanity and all this is being done by so called Muslim scholars in an absolutely wrong way.

I have some solutions in my mind to solve this ongoing problem with Muslim men for such serious issues for their own women , not for the western women to ease the sufferings of those oppressed women with NO say.

a)-These self created Pseudo Muslim men should realise that if they will insist for these women to wear hijab or to lead their lives in accord with their own selfish wishes, they are creating more chaos, they are creating more Islamophobia b/c a) They are not women themselves. b) They are not wearing hijab or they are not being enslaved.

They should openly accept that these oppressed women are as bright as they are. They can come up with their own better ideology to suit their needs.

b)-Stop comparing Western women with your hijabie women to prove they are the best. And by using projection making your oppressed societies look like ideal. As a matter of fact , it is totally opposite, there are ugly facts which they have to face with sanity of their minds. That what they are preaching is not at all attractive to masses. They have their own deluions of grandiosity with illusions of supermacy. Please, come out of it. Even your own majority of Muslims are sick and tired of all this bogus notion.

c)- They have forgotten the injustices and ugly realities in their part of the world and they have just shut their eyes , shut their ears and also shut their brains, they are just making lame excuses and trying to cover up their highly negative aspects with out admitting that what they are doing to these women is WRONG

d)- I always observe that out of their own guilt and insecurities these Mullahs take on a highly defensive role automatically with out any provokations to defend the role of these oppressed Muslim women.

e)- They should learn how to absorb other`s views while exchanging their ideas. There should be two way traffic.

f)- They have become extremely arrogant and we all know arrogancy is not liked by GOD.Stop judging western women with your own biased glasses, which are color blind.

g)- Please, I request these so called hijackers of neo Islam , NOT to treat all Muslim women as sheep herds with the assumptions that they are same. Just give them recognition of their own uniqueness and individuality. If you are raised by your mothers and with your sisters which accepted your pseudo Islam, why you automatically jump to the conclusion that all other women will accept this false ideology.

h)- Please, let these poor oppressed women raise their voices the way they want, don`t try to snub them b/c you think that is rude and not right. Oh, please give me a break............

i)-Please, stop stereotyping western women the way you twist the facts.In Reality ,Islam is absolutely not your business , don`t mix and confuse Islam with cultures.

Stop seeing western women as you see your own women. Well, your women are oppressed, western women are enjoying equal right of freedom with out any guilt.

Instead give your woman equal right of living her life the way she wants to, not the way you want to.........................Thank you

``Why did mongols as Conquerers embraced Islam-- the creed & sharia of the conquered?``(ecco )

may be -- ``ki meray Qatal kay baad usne jaffa se taubaa``....?

Ahmer Muzammil {``I am baffled when I see slow dancing couples in an EID program. Can it get any more disrespectful? If this is not a mockery of our religious events, I don’t know what is? ...... It is quite astonishing that just because I am not comfortable watching a woman dance, somehow it makes me less cultured and civilized. I shouldn’t automatically become a ``Taliban`` ...If our true Islamic culture and values are so repugnant, how do you explain this massive conversion to Islam in societies where there is no compulsion on them?``}

Muzammil Sahib,
Thank you for sharing this interesting phenomenon with your readers. Yes, Islam has always had an attraction for many non-Muslims - Christians, Jews, Hindus, Parsis, and others. One could always cite simplicity, unity of God and unity of man/woman, love of God, example of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), egalitarianism, compassion, and justice as the primary reasons. Of course, much of that positive image has been irreparably damaged by our ``Mullah`` friends, Al-Kayda terrorists, and intolerant Sunni Wahabbi fundamentalists.

Much of the credit for the ``success`` of Islam in proselytizing non-Muslims should also go to the societies that permit this switching of religious affinity. It is important to note, the very few societies, except Sharia-ruled Islamic ones, propose the death penalty for changing ones religious affiliation. So, when Protestant girls in UK and Holland, Hispanic women in the States, and Hindu females in India and elsewhere convert to Islam - the real credit goes to the societies that permit this emigration. Whether Muslim women are thronging to become nuns, JAPs, or devis is not the issue. The real issue is what will happen to the one or two who attempt such suicidal acts. I think that if there were more tolerance and freedom in Islamic societies you would notice some, not much, but some conversion away from Islam.

Now, sir to your point about your disapproval of dancing - close as in couples or entertainment as in exotic, I must disagree. The lack of dance, music, laughter, and liquor are the causes of Muslims ``blowing up`` at the slightest excuse. After all, there should be nothing wrong with being happy, yes even on Eid.

Ahmer Mozammil {``Peter Ford the author of this article writes that according to researchers, the rationale for this mass conversion amongst women is the moral bankruptcy and the superficial nature of the society that surrounds them. I guess what he is saying is that Islam doesn’t put emphasis on the “HOTNESS” of a woman, but rather on her character. Because we don’t sometimes have a say in what we look like (nature dictates that for the most part) but we as normal human beings have total control of our behavior.``}

Mozammil Sahib,
I hope that is not the reason to convert to Islam - because our religion emphasizes that a woman should not be ``HOT.`` If the word gets out, then the Hindus (and even some Muslims) on Chowk will be yelling ``Who let the dogs out?``

Re: # 45 hamidm2,

Go slow.........with high probability the writer may be a horrible hindoo.

Raw Dust #44,
WOW! I never realized that apostasy out of Islam was so widespread. :) Thanks for sharing.

The women who are `reverting` to islam are:

1) not the believing Christians who take their religion seriously.

2) regular Janes who are easily duped by pyramid schemes, cheating boyfriends and promises by Islam. Note that the event of someone declaring themselves Muslim CANNOT BE A VICTORY for Islam and its cheerleaders. That is a meaningless statistics which should be compared with HOW MANY WOMEN ARE `DUPED` INTO HAVING SEX IN THE HOPE OR PROMISE OF MARRIAGE etc. Even the retention rate is not a meaningful indicator because people, even after being dissatisfied, do not revert back to pre-Islamic ways due to the reason mentioned in (3).

3) Recruiters of Islam make a noise about declaration of Islam and changing of names and informing the parents etc. That`s why there is a measurable entity that pops into existence. However, as most must admit, changing your faith to Islam should require no outward declaration etc. Also many people of normal disposition ALREADY have the same ideals and preferences that Islam PURPORTS TO UPHOLD. Just because there is name for those ideals doesn`t mean that Islam should get the credit for claiming those people who were already in existence with that kind of mind. Combine this with the Islamic recruiters insistence of declaring your faith etc, and what you have is a false statistic. < Very subtle this point.

Muslim women are not converting because:

4) Most Muslim women who have access to Christian ideals are smart enough to reject the logic.

5) Most Muslim women who have access to the `Western Religion` are already believers in it. On chowk, most Muslim women do not accept the Islamic distribution of inheritance and husband not to mention the witness laws for women among other things. They like to slow-dance and will not stand for the Quranic `beating` administered by their husbands etc. However, the `western religion` does not ask these Muslim women to change their names and declare themselves as western. Thus very no cheerleading about it.

6) Women are most likely to intimidated by the threat of death or social isolation if they were to convert to non-Islamic religion. Because of their lower status in their society, they are likely to be passed over because of their lack of education and the lack of control over their own lives. Islam also admits such preferences when it requires the man of the house to be a Muslim and the women.. they can come and go. Another point that belongs in (2) above is that, western women because of their higher levels of education are likely to learn about other worldviews and repond to it based on their preferences.

Summary: Just because non-Muslim women are `reverting` does not mean that Islam is a true religion. It may be attractive, as a Playboy magazine might be attractive, but it still carries the burden of delivering its (false) promises.

Just the fact that Muslim women are not converting out of Islam PUBLICLY does not mean that Islam satisfies them completely, but because the other religions DO NOT REQUIRE public declaration of their non-Islamic thinking.

re: Ahmer

you wrote:
If our true Islamic culture and values are so repugnant, how do you explain this massive conversion to Islam in societies where there is no compulsion on them?

Because in the west, everybody minds his own business. Religion is treated as a private matter. The state does not discriminate between people on the basis of religion.

Pakistan used to be like that until the late 1970s. But Afghan jihad and rise of Islamic fundamentalism changed all that. Religion became political, instead of personal. For a while, people tolerated this sort of vigilantism. But now they are not prepared to let anybody insult their intelligence by telling them what clothes to wear, how & when to pray, what to read, and what to watch on TV. Religion is a personal matter.

Islam is certainly part of Pakistani culture. But culture is more than religion. It also includes language, music, poetry, traditions, dress, folk lore and much more.
And there is certainly more to Pakistani culture than meets the Mullah eye:
Bulleh Shah, Madho Lal Husain, Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, Nur Jehan, Vital Signs, Junoon, Jal, Bhangra, Khattak dance, Horse and Cattle Show, Basant, Polo, Stage shows, Alhamra Arts, archaeological sites, etc...

Although Pakistani culture borrows a lot from Indian, Arab, Afghan and Persian cultures... it is nevertheless distinct from these cultures. Unless we project this culture through media, nobody will understand Pakistani culture.

#24 by Urstruly on April 25, 2006 8:06am PT


10. And last of all, if it is the work of ``Islamists`` then shouldn`t they be striking the kanjar khanas around the city but we see no such attack ever. Why?


Speaking of that, Saddam probably killed more muslims than Israel/India/America..Heck, the paki army killed more muslims in 71 than the 3 combined..

Why didn`t Allah`s soldiers fly planes into Saddam`s palaces or the paki GHQ?

Re: # 52
salim saheb:

``Thank you for sharing this interesting phenomenon with your readers. Yes, Islam has always had an attraction for many non-Muslims - Christians, Jews, Hindus, Parsis, and others. One could always cite simplicity, unity of God and unity of man/woman, love of God, example of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), egalitarianism, compassion, and justice as the primary reasons``

Occam`s razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. I would say that 4 wifes at any
time, easy divorce out of court, temporary marriages are enough incentives for
most men - especially the criminal minded (the reason you see lot of convicts converting)

Re: # 59
>>>>I would say that 4 wifes at any time, easy divorce out of court, temporary marriages are enough incentives for most men - especially the criminal minded (the reason you see lot of convicts converting<<<<

Dharma,
LOL. that`s an interesting angle, never seen that angle.
Now you are tempting me to convert!

#59, dharma {``I would say that 4 wifes at any
time, easy divorce out of court, temporary marriages are enough incentives for
most men - especially the criminal minded (the reason you see lot of convicts converting) ``}

Dharma Sahib,
You forgot to include the 72 gopis, unlimited number of concubines, subsidies and tax relief for harems, madrassa scholarships, mandatory burkas for the dogs, and very simple retirement plan. :)

But I am still intrigured by the rising number of female converts. I hope that lack of being ``HOT`` is NOT the case.

Re: # 60
bharat:
LOL. that`s an interesting angle, never seen that angle.
Now you are tempting me to convert!

you are telling me! You need a will of steel not to convert.
First pair of muslim girls that want to marry me at the same time
i am outta here:)

re#62 by dharma on April 25, 2006 3:01pm PT
>>>>>>you are telling me! You need a will of steel not to convert.
First pair of muslim girls that want to marry me at the same time
i am outta here:)

LOL.
This web site is getting more and more interesting for
me. All male f+++$&s sharing their
secret desires and it is not even a XXX site and free.
I`m all for a global Jihad now.

al-test-ul-marhaba

The author writes

<<< Majority of the Western media and the Pat Robertsons of the world will have you believe that Islam is the most backward religion in the world >>>

Yes, they have an agenda and to pursue that agenda they don`t consider truth as the criterion only what sells their product and in the case of Pat Robertson that product that he is selling happens to be (metaphorically speaking) urine dressed up as health tonic.

Then he writes

<<< I have a simple question: why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting to Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any ‘ism’ for that matter? >>>

Conversion is not the criteria for the truthfulness or lack thereof of a system. Truth stands on its own merits regardless of the # of followers.

He writes <<< Peter Ford the author of this article writes that according to researchers, the rationale for this mass conversion amongst women is the moral bankruptcy and the superficial nature of the society that surrounds them >>>

It is not the superficial or ``moral bankruptcy`` of society in my opinion but rather how that impacts on women and their view of themselves in such a society. Women in western socieites are oppressed, much moreso than Muslim women (who are oppressed more by their traditions than anything Islam or the Quran teaches). Like I tell my class, the west makes a big deal (for propaganda reasons) of the ``Muslim veiliing of women`` (even though there is no such ruling concerning that veil in the Quran) yet it is busy veiling its own women by making everything about them invisible (about their personalities) both to themselves and to others, except their physical appearance judged by male standards of attractiveness. That is how the personality develops if you`ve heard of the ``looking glass self``, you see yourselves as others see you. Now I can throw in plenty of stats to show just how oppressed women are in the US but that would be a repetition, you all can go through my posts on your own time to check those.

On a side note, I would not characterize the Christian Science Monitor as a ``right-wing magazine`` because it is not. Its coverage is closer to the BBC than Fox News. I would also not agree with the author including sources other than the Quran as ``authority`` on Islam. Given the history of those extra quranic sources as well as the recommendations in the Quran, no extra-Quranic sources can ever be considered an authority on Islam.

Author,

Sometimes people convert simply for the ``novelty`` of the effect - or perhaps because they are continuing to seek because they are not satisfied with what they have .

Usually these are isolated instances and such individuals do not fit the ``norm``.

Therefore, like all isolated instances, there is not much to be read into such stuff.

The best preachers are those who restrict their discourse to the good things their religion teaches and keep its focus on individual acts - rather than trying to use the religion as an agent of change.

The ``fire and brimstone`` type is pretty much out of style - most reasonable people tend to tune them out because they appeal to the destructive tendencies which are part of us all.

However, every religion has some such types as well as some followers of such types.

The trick is not to focus on the religion itself but those types of individuals.

``My religion is better than yours`` is effectively an oxymoron - because the good parts of any religion are universal so can not be owned by any segment of population through a label.

[Majority of the Western media and the Pat Robertsons of the world will have you believe that Islam is the most backward religion in the world. They will make a case that Islam is oppressive to women; it preaches hate towards anyone and everyone. They will blow fire out of their mouths about how all practising Muslim men are nothing but wife beaters.

I have a simple question: why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting to Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any ‘ism’ for that matter? We will hear the Irshad Manjis and Asra Naumanis trying to ``INNOVATE`` in Islam by pleading to us how lesbianism and illegitimate children are fine and how this behavior should be encouraged in Islam. But even they will never say that another religion is the answer. On the other hand, despite open prejudice and harassment to some degree, Islam is spreading in Europe and America like wild-fire. ]

Whether it`s Muslims, Christians, Mormons or Jews, any kind of religious extremism deprives the women of their basic rights and options to enjoy the life they want to (whether it is tango or rumba - someone else chooses the type of dance movements they need to follow). In these kinds of societies, men take upon themselves to control, dictate, analyze and review the lives of their family women and the women around them.

Just recently, there was a program on CNN regarding polygamy among the Mormons. It was amazing to see that some women who were in polygamous relationships were fine with the fact that the husband had multiple wives. Some of the female children had issues. But it was interesting to listen to wife#1 of a guy with 3 wives. Wife # 1 did not believe in having multiple husbands and was fine that women were not allowed to lean in that direction in her faith, whereas it was fine for a man to go for it. The woman shared all the good points about joint family system and stuff like that. Interestingly, all other wives did not hold the same opinion as that of the first wife. This is happening in a country where we believe women have equal rights and they are a not a possession of a man nor completely dependent on him. According to the guy, he was following his belief and its leanings. Was that fair with all his wives? Were they comfortable in that relationship? It was not clear and was left in the air except for wife#1`s comments. Some children who were the by-product of such relationship spoke vehemently on the maltreatment they received in the hands of stepmothers and other extended family. It was an interesting program with completely different perspectives depending on the stakeholders and their angles.

[I have a simple question: why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting to Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any ‘ism’ for that matter?]

Why is the writer assuming that having Muslim women with an affinity to their religion has anything to do with Muslim men`s treatment toward the women? It`s not that Muslim men treat their women so well that the women have decide to stay devoted to Islam. This is silly and plain nonsense. Some of our well-meaning Muslim men tend to confuse these two elements and forget to treat them separately. There may not be many Muslim women converting but there are many Muslim women who grew up in Islamic countries but decided to marry non-Muslim guys by choice. Some of these guys converted whereas others did not. There are a lot of born Muslims who lack the basic decency and values that Islam emphasizes. On the contrary, there are many non-Muslims who have qualities and attributes that comply with the basics of what Islam preaches.

Like any organized religion, Muslims do have love and affinity for each other. Unfortunately, lately they are showing their love and affinity by eliminating each other. That is something very unique to the Muslims. With that kind of mindset, it`s very hard to trust a Muslim male`s leanings. An educated man who may appear sane and sophisticated one day can transform into a religious zealot later down the road. He may decide to become a jehadi due to some spiritual transformation. Still, this is not a good reason for a Muslim woman to turn away from her religion. Religion is not about performing rituals and being the caretaker of criticizing/reviewing Muslim women`s leanings. I do not believe that is what Islam preaches or even emphasizes in any way or shape.

[I find it amazing and it’s a lesson for the haters of Islam as well as the supposed “Mullahs” that when asked by his companions who are the best amongst Muslims, my beloved prophet said “The one who is polite and loving towards his wife”. All the wife-beaters are duly warned! ]

I am very amused to read this ending. Is there any specific definition of ``love``? Is the Muslim man supposed to follow a prescribed guideline and ritual to display that love? Do Muslim men subscribe to a certain line of thought when it comes to expressing love? Why cann`t a Mm express that love in the form of slow and smooth dancing or the invigorating salsa? When the goal is clear, does it matter how you achieve it? Does it matter if it is in a certain form? There are many Muslims who love their Creator/Allah. Not all of them express their love in the form of following certain specific rituals. Some people have no other way of expressing love toward God than following the rituals. Others good human beings and are kind to God`s creation out of sheer love of God. Then there are those who get into the Jehad mode by killing the creation of God. In their eyes, that is a form of love toward their creator. Unfortunately, that kind of love is what alerts the rest of the civilized world and makes them wonder if the orthodox Muslims truly know the meaning of love. There are various types involved in this picture. We cannot say who is better here. But we definitely know the worst kind.

Keeping that in mind, I think it is extremely unfair of a sweet and polite Mm who knows how to move his limbs, is in good shape, and has good taste in music to not enjoy a healthy activity with his spouse or significant other. He should feel terribly guilty for not enjoying life and not sharing something that can bring joy to his spouse`s life. It can be very disappointing for a lively Muslim woman to be with a man who does not believe in cherishing life and its liveliness. Point to ponder!

#68 very true, indeed.

#65 that is from masadi. so it must be untrue. no need to read. :-)

Post #67 -

An Update -

Religion is not about performing rituals and being the caretaker of criticizing/reviewing Muslim men/women`s leanings.

Re: # 23

Naqsh (e-baz),

You could ask ur Mohajir friends what the above word means?

Spirituality in Islam you must be joking. You would not know spirituality if it hit you at 200 kmph.

Oh i forgot in islam the spirit resides in the blood that is why you slaughter animals by the barbaric halal method, by that its spirit is released. So you must be experiencing spirituality at least once a year and BUTCHERS must be the most spiritual of all Islamic people. What a great PR opportunity ``Our butchers are spiritual``. Care to add more permutations to the theme.

No Regards
Sanatani

#70 by tahmed32 <<<
#65 that is from masadi. so it must be untrue. no need to read. :-) >>>

Your unconditional opposition to my posts mirrors your unconditional support for colonization and the ``Anglo Saxon tradition``- (whatever the hell that means). It appears the time off you took for some much needed soul searching hasn`t paid off.

OK. Enough of this crap coming from yet one more of these Islamists.

Reading the blanket statements and self-serving questions makes me wanna puke !

``why is it that even after all this oppression we never hear of Muslim women whether they are living in Islamic countries or even in the west converting to Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any ‘ism’ for that matter``

-- Who is playing the trumpet that Islam is spreading like a wild fire in the west? Its islamists like this author. One mullah writes an article that Islam is spreading like a wild fire, and another quotes it. Doesn`t surprise me.

``the word used should be reverting because we as Muslims believe that every ...``

-- It doesn`t matter my favorite Islamist buddy. We will continue using the word ``converting``. It is an open secret that mostly only losers from other religious backgrounds convert to Islam. You should have seen how my Hindu friend from Hyderabad went to Arizona, met some loser Hyderabadi and Pakistani Muslim friends, fell for the BS they fed him, and turned into one Jameel. He never finished his Masters, is back, and is now so perfect a Muslim, going to Mosques, and eating lotuses.

``Islam doesn’t put emphasis on the “HOTNESS” of a woman``
-- Sure, but that`s because Islam in North Africa slices away the clitori of women. And, in the middle east it does not permit them to lead lives independently. In South Asia it leaves them with Burkhas (In Pakistan it occasionally gets them stone washed). Even in relatively modern Malaysia, and Indonesia it stifles their life styles.

``Even today in this age of materialism I am a personal witness to families back home, where women in their 80’s who are completely unlettered, are obviously not the bread-winners of the family, but yet they have the stature of the head of the household``

-- Sure, so the conclusion being? In my non-muslim immediate family, we treat elderly women with care and love. And, whats the non-sense about materialism? Have you stopped working for your daily Naan, taking drugs, and playing sufi music on the streets of Karachi?

``Islam is still thriving in the heart of America``
-- Mostly in prisons, black ghettos, pakistani neighborhoods, and in some parts of rural Texas.

``Please spare me the lectures on how times are changing and Islam needs to change with time. ``
-- Please spare us with your doctrinaire ! If you are baffled, there`s more than one channel on the TV. Watch your Israr Ahmed buddy talking about how Ahmedis are non-muslims, `maslah yeh hai....maslah wo hai....`

``We need to reclaim our media from these Indian wannabe’s. ``

-- Please do that. And, make sure others quite easily distinguish between Indians and Pakistanis. Enough of this bhai-chara between religious freaks, and Indians.

``But if someone is going to plead the case of ``Mixed Prayers`` or how dancing whether classical or otherwise is somehow part and parcel of our religion and Pakistani culture then you’ll get an earful from me and believe you me I am the voice of the majority on these issues.``

-- Are you married? Do you feed your wives and kids well ? Or do you keep patronizing like this all th