Ready for a Modern Pakistan?

re:#404 by omar_r_quraishi
Nobody in India will argue that this is bad. RSS ideology is not the dominant ideology in India. Which is why its voice is limited to perhaps Gujrat and Orissa (as that article u posted says).
Pak as a nation has evolved an islamic ideology that says that everything unislamic is undesirable. Hence, the kind of discrimination that happens in Pak is across the board. It happens all over the place.
I hope u notice the difference.
Sridhar

re:#403 by puyu
Sainath i think is the same guy who also writes in TFT, a Paki weekly.
Of course, the guy is a commie. Hindu is a commie newspaper.
There is nothing wrong with wealth creation. It is however govt`s job to see to it that it gets equitably distributed. That is, it is govt`s job to invest the created wealth in areas which have not benefitted. In India`s case, this would be the entire rural economy.
Present govt seems committed to do something substantial for the rural economy. Read the following article to know why i think so:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=443718
There was also an article in BBC about this. Can`t find the link. This is like a security net for the poorest of the poor. Would govt have been able to do so without creating wealth in the first place?
So, capitalism must be combined with liberal socialism and schemes to benefit the poor. Unbridled capitalism is bad.
Sridhar

re:#401 by arjun_m
The guy in question has an anal fixation. Hence the constant reference to sugarcane. Here is a joke dedicated to him:
Knock, knock.
``who is there?``
It is Agarbatti
``Agarbatti who?``
Agar batti na hoti to Beharam hameysha constipated rehta!
Sridhar

Before Arjun is turned into the bete noire for all of Pakistan`s problems, let me offer some facts:
Arjun did not create the Paki Punjoo hegemony that is tearing the country apart.
Arjun did not order the Paki military to bomb, kill, and persecute its own citizens in East Pakistan, Karachi, Baluchistan, NWFP, Gligit, and Batistan.
Arjun did not participate in the military coups of 1958, 1977, and 1999.
Arjun did not officially have the Ahmedis declared as non-Muslims.
Arjun did not fan the fire of sectarian violence in Pakistan.
Arjun did not import the nonsensical Wahabbi brand of suicidal Islam into Pakistan.
Arjun did not cause the earthquake of last year and the obvious incompetence of the Paki establishment manifested as a result of the catastrophe.
Arjun did not create, arm, guide, and support the Tally Ban.
Arjun has only researched most of these problems and compiled them for the benefit of Pakistan. If people are too stupid to be thankful for this valuable research, they are behaving just as predicted.
Thank you, Arjun.

Last I checked SAP has me as their contact person in Pakistan...

Are you listed on the SAP website anywhere?

#402 by Mantolives on February 2, 2006 9:39pm PT


I think you should accept that I am an authority and you are a layman in this issue


Pray tell, why the heck?


1. Because you`ve got more experience in this line of work?
2. Because you`ve visited the SAP lab and know what the India team is doing?
3. Because you say so?

Actually, the turning of the debate in this nature by Veeresh and the response by Mantolives is actually reflective of a deep problem most Indians and some Pakistanis suffer from. It`s the `British syndrome`. The British left in 1947 but their ways, customs, laws, and norms truly did not leave the subcontinent. We aspire to do everything they did or mostly are doing these days. That`s why Veeresh emulates, The British Way of Life, or at least tries too. This guy would leave his brown skin the day a 100% European skin low-cost `treatment` was created for his brown condition.

:P

Dear Veeresh...

While, as affirmed by Ferozk and other Pakistanis- even those that disagree with me, that these two events are a welcome change from the suffocating atmosphere that Zia created ... I can see why you wish to color my argument in your own saffron shade...

A few years ago you claimed that India was richer and better than Pakistan because people spoke the Queen`s English on Delhi`s roads... while people in Lahore spoke Punjabi...

You are desperately trying to undo your foot in the mouth.

Let us get back to analysing and interacting on Dearly Beloved Yasser`s essay.

According to him, organising a marathon and a Bryan Adams concert are the vital ingredients for a roadmap to a modern Pakistan, strewn with Dunkin Donut outlets, not to forget.

I wonder how many other Pakistanis feel that way?

Thank you.

Ranjit
``disbarring them from the democratic system``
Isnt that an oxymoron :)
I say leave it to the people

Re:puyu#408

[...In Bengal they are pro reforms and in Kerala the party is deeply divided over reforms...]

The leftists are playing a very sinister game in India and it is a utter shame that the Indian media and the people are not catching on. They are all ideologues - some more than the others. But every commie/leftist is basically an ideologue. Their fundamental agenda is simple - keep everything in government control, shackle up private enterprise and ensure that poverty never goes away in India.

Why is that way? Because the leftists have a vested interest in poverty. It is poverty that keeps the leftists in power. That is their vote base. They get votes from people who have economic problems. If everyone is rich and happy, who will vote for leftists? Therefore, they will do their utmost to keep India down economically.

The only exception to that is in places where they have full power like in West Bengal. There they have the chance of overplaying their hand. Basically West Bengal is so backward economically, that the leftists fear that people will blame them for ruining the state and kick them out of power. Hence they have now made an exception for Bengal, albeit grudgingly, to ensure their electoral prospects. This scenario is similar to China where they are pursuing economic reforms as a way to shore up support for communism for ages.

In states where they are a minority or at the center, they have 100% vested interest in perpetuating poverty and absolutely no interest in economic development. For them, economic development means extinction. That is why it is so important for Indians to understand this menace, this cancer in our country. The commies are a major impediment for India to achieve its potential. We should look at all possibilities, including using force or disbarring them from the democratic system to get rid of this major threat to our national interests.

Re: # 407 ranjit
I am not in a denial about the communist `obscurantism`. But we should not miss the ideological battles within the communist parties. Just consider the case of CPI(M). In Bengal they are pro reforms and in Kerala the party is deeply divided over reforms with one group proposing the theory of the ``fourth world`` which the other group accuses to be against the very tenets of marxism. The central leadership is as rigid as Praksh Karat but it remains to be seen how long he would remain at the helm of affairs.
And to give commies their due, the employment guarantee programme would not have been put into the fast channel if it were not for their efforts.

Re:puyu#403

[...No one is against wealth creation.Its xactly hte opposite....]

This is not true at all. The leftist parties have been opposing every possible reform move, almost like a pavlovian reflex. This is irrespective of whether there was any real impact on the workers. For e.g. the government wants to sell some of its stake in BHEL and the leftists shriek bloody murder, although the govt would still retain majority stake. There would not have been any impact on any worker, but the government could have raised some money for other projects. Similarly the left has been opposing government moves on infrastructure like the golden quadrilateral project to construct a highway network betweent the 4 major cities and the modernizing of Delhi/Mumbai airports.

This is basically an ideological battle and not a humanitarian issue. The leftists cannot stomach the fact that their way just does not work. They are not willing to admit defeat in the face of overwhelming evidence of the benefits of economic reforms.

Re:ferozek#323

Feroze, you have asked several interesting questions. Let me give you my analysis of Indian strategy.

Indian democracy has matured to the point that we have roughly two opposing camps - the center-left which is the Congress-Leftist alliance and the center-right which is the BJP led alliance. Each camp has additional players like regional parties and so forth. However, broadly speaking we are maturing into a bipolar democracy similar to the republican-democrat scenario in US and conservative-labour scenario in UK.

The center-left, which is the present ruling alliance in Delhi, has always been suspicious of the US and is hesitant to go to bed with the US as an exclusive partner. This is a hangover from colonial times and an inherited apprehension of the brits. Hence the urge to always hedge Indian interests by striking alliances with other powers like China and Russia. This suspicion is not unfounded, given the nature of the US to treat its third world allies in a very casual manner, Pakistan being an obvious example. As far as South Asia is concerned, the center-left basically wants status quo with Pakistan. It has always pursued good relations with the Islamic world, especially Iran, as a measure to blunt Pakistan`s natural advantage and ability to harm Indian interests. So it is basically a defensive tactic.

The center-right, which is the BJP alliance, is very eager to put all its eggs in the US basket. They identify a similar ideolological partner in the US and are willing to do anything to be the US sponsored regional power that can be a counter to China. The center-right views Pakistan as a enemy nation and wants to isolate it internationally. They also want close relations with Afghanistan and Iran, more as a means to surround Pakistan with hostile neighbors. So it is more of an offensive tactic.

At the core of Indian strategy, irrespective of political dispensation, is economic growth and the objective is to be an economic superpower. That requires cheap energy and close cooperation with the center of all economic activity - the west. Since both the center-right and the center-left want good relations with Iran, albeit for different reasons, it is but a natural choice for India`s energy needs. Also both the center-left and center-right need very close economic ties with the US, since it is so vital for India`s economic growth. The difference is that the center-left is less interested in being a strategic proxy for US interests unlike the center-right. Hence the nuclear partnership deal with the US was somewhat of an anomaly for the center-left, since it goes against its general ideological bent. The one explanation is that it was entered in the hope that it would further strengthen the economic ties with US.

What complicates matters most for India, is the massive collision course that the US is engaged in with the Islamic world. It disturbs the nicely calibrated strategic calculus laid out by both the center-left and the center-right in India. This is less of an issue for Pakistan since Pakistan being an Islamic country does not have to choose between US and the Islamic world. It has an excuse that it needs to maintain its natural ties to the Islamic world while being in bed with the US. India does not have that excuse and is being forced to choose between the US and the Islamic world. That is a lose-lose scenario since either it will lose US economic cooperation or lose its leverage in the Islamic world, especially cheap energy supplies and the means to blunt/isolate Pakistan. Already the US ambassador`s antics shows that Indian apprehensions about the US are not without merit.

Thus at this point India is playing a very tough balancing act. It is certainly towing the US line to the extent that it ensures its economic growth and if that means firing Mani Shankar Aiyar, so be it. But I am not sure if there is much of an apetite to be the US proxy power - unless the BJP comes back to power. The interest in the civilian nuclear deal has considerably diminished as India is realizing that this deal is pushing it into the US bed to such an extent that it will lose all its leverage in the Islamic world, not to mention cheap energy sources vital for its economy. To protect India`s interests in the Islamic world, India is cozying up to the Islamic countries that are still in the good books of the US. Thus the sudden warming up of relations with Saudi Arabia and the eagerness to enter into an energy partnership with the Saudis. But as the US relations with the Islamic world continues to deteriorate, it will be tougher and tougher on India to maintain this balancing act.

Yasser ,
nice writing.
Zia era was the darkest .
And now his son has become religious Minister.
He should be hanged for his father` sins.

tch tch -- yes rsridhar the truth does hurt

Intimidating a Minority

Spurt in the Anti Christian Violence

Ram Puniyani

There has been a continuous rise in the number of
incidents of anti Christian violence since last one
decade. Currently this violence has become a regular
feature in Madhya Pradesh and other BJP ruling states
in particular and in other parts of the country in
general. The first simmering of these incidents began
from 1996, went on to have a sustained presence all
through. This violence has mainly been in the remote
places. Burning of small churches, Bibles, attack on
congregations and assembly of people around the Church
have been some of these. The most horrific of these
was the burning alive of Pastor Graham Stewart Stains
along with his two sons, Timothy and Philip. The main
pretext of this violence is that the Christian
missionaries are converting the gullible Adivasis, who
are called Vanvasis by them, and are projected as the
Hindus who had to flee to forests to avoid conversion
by the invading Muslims Kings. The `fear` of
conversion by now has become a pathological obsession.


Lets begin with the facts first. The booklets brought
out by RSS combine, operating in the name of Vishwa
Hindu Parishad, Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram and Bajrang Dal,
pick up small pockets with small percentage of
Christians, and show as to how the Christian
population is rising by leaps and bounds. Dangs is a
case in point. Here out of the total population of
nearly 1, 80, 000, close to 8000 are Christians. In
Gujarat as such the total population of Christians is
less than 0.5%. The overall national percentage of
Christians is on the decline, (1971-2.60, 1981-2.44,
1991-2.34, and 2001-2.30). And this is what is
supposed to be the demographic danger for the RSS
combine!

Is it the conversion that Hindutva politics is scared
of or is there some deeper political and social agenda
at the back of the Anti Christian campaign which has
been strengthened from 1996? Some observations are
very pertinent. It is from 1987 that RSS affiliates
intensified their activities in the Adivasi areas. It
is 1996 that the BJP led coalition first came to power
at the center. The other point is that the attacks are
mainly in the remote places. In the cities where major
Christian institutions are located, such incidents are
few and far between. There seems to be no such fear
that one`s children will be converted by the time they
pass out after few years in urban schools. Yet another
point is that by now this violence has consolidated
Hindutva in these regions and the states like Gujarat,
Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh, the states
where Adivasis have a significant presence; BJP has
been able to come to power. Another major state where
Adivasis are in good number, BJP ally Biju Janata Dal
is the leading party.

The anti Christian violence is slightly of a different
variety than the anti Muslim violence. Initially anti
Muslim violence was mainly in cities; mainly in places
where Muslim artisans are traders were having a good
deal of presence. Bhiwandi, Malegaon, Meerut are some
of the major ones` in this category. Later this did
spread to places where communal forces gained strength
due to ideological indoctrination like Mumbai and
Ahmadabad. The main pretext of anti Muslim riot has
been Muslims aggressiveness and their loyalty to
Pakistan, their being terrorists, their appeasement by
the Government for vote bank politics. While most of
this is totally false, popular psyche was flooded with
this propaganda. Its percolation was smooth due to the
lack of effective counter awareness and spread of the
truth about this disadvantaged section of society. A
distorted version of History was also selectively
projected to demonize the Muslims and the picture is
complete with Osama bin Laden`s alleged role in 9/11.

In case of Christians, no such demonization is
possible. As such Christianity is older than Islam,
Christian missionaries are in India from AD 52, and in
most of the major cities their institutions are older
than a century or so. British were the patrons of
communal politics; British are identified with
Christianity so it becomes difficult for Hindutva
propaganda machine to demonize Christians on the basis
of History. More so the historical method followed by
Hindutva communalists is based on the version
propounded by British Historians in pursuance of
British policy of divide and rule so demonization of
Christians on this ground is difficult if not
impossible. RSS propaganda making machine resorts more
to demonizing Christian missionary activities in
today`s times. The global links of Christian missions
are restricted to the funds coming from abroad, and
mercifully the whole Christian community world over is
not linked up with the local missionary activity. One
of the reasons of this is that RSS ideology and
politics is hands in glove with the imperialist,
colonialists, who happen to be Christians, so
Christianity cannot be demonized the way Muslims and
Islam are.

To overcome this `handicap` the total focus is placed
on the conversion into Christianity and Gobbesian
propaganda has been supplemented by the proactive
cultural manipulation. The symbolism is used to woo
Adivasis. The fascination of being accepted by the
upper caste, the RSS followers gives a sense of false
pride in a section of Adivasis who surrender to the
Hindutva symbols and takes up arms on its behalf to
finish off the `enemies of Hindu nation` as witnessed
in the role Adivasis played in Gujarat carnage. Since
this work is to be in the remote places many a Sadhus,
Aseemanand in Dangs, Lakkhanand in Orissa, have been
unleashed in these areas. The groundwork for
communalization has been prepared by the so called
Achrayas, Babas and Bhagwans belonging to the streams
of Asaram, Morari, Pandurang Shastri and their tribe.

The violence against Muslim community has come in huge
bouts after the pretext of burning a train (Sabrmati)
or a family (Bane family) in Gujarat and Mumbai
respectively. These `incidents` are than used to
browbeat the whole community. In case of Christians,
at present, the violence is chronic, low intensity and
sustained. While this anti Christian violence is more
in BJP ruled states or the ones` where its allies
rule, other states are also not exempt. While the
major anti Muslim onslaught was built around Ram
Temple, by the program to demolish Babri, the
antichristian campaign is being centered on building
temples of the forgotten Gods and Goddesses. The
Shabri temple in Dangs is a case in point. The overall
result is by and large the similar one, to browbeat
the minorities into ghettoisation, intimidation and
isolation. The anti-minority violence results in
polarization of communities resulting in the electoral
gains for BJP.

Muslims and Christians, both these minorities are on
the chopping block of Hindutva politics. Christians do
have better advantage of modern education and better
awareness of their rights. But of course, that is no
insurance against the violence against them as being
witnessed from last few years. The hatred for
Christian priests amongst the Adivasis is intense. Our
team had visited Dangs to investigate the Shabri
Kumbh. While some of us were talking to the Adivasis
in one corner, the word spread that a team of Fathers
has come from Ahmadabad. One of the Adivasi volunteer
blocked the road and said he will not let us go till
Aseemanand gives us permission, since we are Christian
fathers. Either he or we will survive the
confrontation. Once Aseemanand`s volunteers came and
checked our antecedents, we were `permitted` to go.

Identity is the central point of this whole attempt of
RSS. One thing uniform in the areas visited, in
Gujarat and Orissa is the stark poverty and the
problem of land rights of Adivasis. But what better
way to ensure that they are fed the opium of religion
so that the supporters of RSS combine in these areas,
the traders, contractors, and land grabbers can have
their cake and eat it too. By now the polarization in
the Adivasi areas is very intense and RSS has every
reason celebrate as a large chunk of Adivasis have
started yielding to the threat of Gharvapasi, a bath
in hot spring or their feet being washed by VHP
leaders, is picking up. Also threats are subtly being
dished out that if they don`t put the saffron flags,
or don`t take the holy dip or don`t eat the Prasad the
consequences will not be good.

The writer of these lines saw the success of RSS
agenda on the bodies of starving, naked, semiclad
Adivis children who have been taught to shout Jai Shri
Ram! We need to think as to how the worldly issues of
Adivasis, land rights, bread, clothing, shelter and
education are brought in the center of social and
political planning?


--

Issues in Secular Politics-February 2006 I

For circulation/publication/translation.
These articles are also available on
www.pluralindia.com.
Best wishes

Ram Puniyani