Are We The Most Racist Of Them All?

Re:bjkumar#44 and sadna

Sorry, but I dont share your cynicism. If anything, India is becoming increasingly integrated. It is happening on its own, not due to some top down fiat from the central government or due to some government mandated ``educational`` program with catchy slogans on TV.

Every government tries for national integration. A lot of them fail, as is evident from our neighbor Pakistan. Things are working out in India because it benefits us to be an Indian, period. There are more opportunities for all of us. As an Indian, we can get a job anywhere in India, pursue better opportunities and live anywhere in India. It is beautiful. What would we get, just being able to live in Delhi or UP? Also being an Indian protects us from invasion from outside. If India were broken up tomorrow, Pakistan would walk in and try to pick up the pieces. We lived that way for centuries and paid a heavy price for it. It will never happen again.

Bottom line is that it does not benefit us to be just a Punjabi or a UPwallah or a Tamilian. I have been to Tamilian parties where people were listening to Daler Mehdi. This is without any government mandated program to ``educate`` Tamilians about Daler Mehdi. Yes we make fun of each other`s habits and customs, but so what? If all of us were the same, life would be so boring.

Re:sadna#46

[...After all, the English came to India and the US went to Iraq for economic reasons but one can`t argue that it resulted in lasting peace and amity no? And how about those `ashrafs` from a previous period who held themselves as separate ?...]

India`s national integration has been in the works for millenia. It cannot be compared to colonial rule or immigration of Turks to Europe. Indians have been moving around the subcontinent and settling down in various places for centuries. The ancient hindu rule, mughal rule and the british rule consolidated this process by providing a united political system. India`s freedom movement was a national movement, not a parochial process.

Our centrifugal instincts and our integration instincts have coexisted as a glorious duality for centuries. Whenever there was a conducive political system coupled with economic opportunities, we have consolidated willingly. Whenever, the political/economic system broke down, we got fragmented. Since our current political and economic dispensation is favorable, it is but natural that we see national integration happenning on its own.

As far as the `ashrafs` are concerned, the tide is turning. Even with all the conflicts and wars, Indians and Pakistanis are on fairly good terms at a people to people level unlike say the Israelis and Palestinians. As the political process becomes better on both sides, we are seeing steady integration happening at least at a cultural/social level e.g. movies, music, cricket etc. Once economics kicks in, it will become very strong. Thats why the fundos in Pakistan are so resistant to economic links because they know that once that happens, it is all over.

Ref sadna #19

[I think N. Indians need to learn one S. Indian language as part of their regular curriculum. That will rid them of their Hindi chauvinism(my own mother tongue is Hindi btw).]

Not at all. I think North Indians should learn only Hindi at their mothers` knees (to speak only, not learn to read or write it). The rest of India needs chaprasis, cooks, household help, road and construction workers, etc., and we are not prepared to pay good money for those services. So let us breed a couple hundred million more North Indians (while disenfranchising them by holding their representation in Parliament steady at 1970 levels).

The world NEEDS stupid people and North India is happy to supply them.

Re:harimau#51

And I respect all South Indians as my brothers.

Nice try at starting a flame war. No dice. :-)

#51
. I know a couple more people who think the rest of India exists only to get their certificate for intelligence, culture and everything good in life. You don`t HAVE to be that way, y`know- you could try digestive tablets.

#52 Ranjit

[Nice try at starting a flame war. No dice]

And in the same spirit, let it be known to all and sundry that this interactor considers Harimau (sometimes referred fondly as Harry Moe (as well as by far stronger terms)) as his (spiritual) dad - not for Harry`s soundness of ideas (regarding which there are legitimate doubts in all our minds) or even the soundness of the source of those ideas - but for his very individual particular flair - which this interactor may have (occasionally but faithfully) emulated - with far devastating results than the (dad) Moe could ever have envisioned!

Re: # 34

BJKumar:

``Chauvinism does not come through the language and it does not go away by learning more languages. ``

You are quite correct. Languages (including French), religions (India-Pakistan, Ireland), even nationalism (Nazis) have been misused as identities to divide people. Culture, social, economy of a nation (Unitted States, Canada, Brazil, evolving India) have been used to build national identities. It is misplaced icons used to build national identity which create problem. Swiss have multiple languages India`s evolution is happening in the knowledge based society, rather than industrial based. The paradigms are shifting, Bollywood, Cricket and IT create more Indian indentity than religion or languages. This shift will only accelerate as IT and BPO job creation moves to second and third tier cities in India, which is already happening. I was a college student during ``Down WIth Hindi - DWH`` times, and had gone to Bangalore from Delhi for the industrial training. Bangalore of then was so different, it certainly does not exist in the main stream anymore. In those days, bureaucrats from the south will come to the north to work in the government. Now entreprenuers and students from all over are increasingly going everywhere. Especially IT pprofessionals are even marrying as they want, and have no hesitation in moving to Bangalore to study or work, just as they have no problem moving to the U.S. and elsewhere. It is such trends in migration that create a melting pot in a society to create a unique national identity, which neither religious nor linguistic.

I am strongly in favor of eliminating northern chauvinism that gets identified in terms of language (s. Indian languages are difficult) and religion (northern hinduism is different) etc. Government must mandate at primary education (5 - 13 yrs.) that kids learn to be tri-lingual (mother tongue, regional language, English). Studies have shown kids at this age have no problem in learning more languages. The benefits are too numerous, as it gives a way to synthesize ideas, which are unique in one language.

Anil Kapuria

#55 Anil

Thanks for the elaboration, I see your vision a bit better now.

But I also (fore)see that down the road, education will be drastically different - knowledge will be gained from a variety of sources (not just books) and the modes of instructions would also be very different - perhaps software-based - and the individual natural languages (perhaps all of them) will slowly be sidelined.

I also see that - as a consequence - not so much a national identity but more of a universal identity building up everywhere - some of the signs are already there with us - we are calling it the capitalistic system in action and we tend to concentrate on the economics part of it but there are other effects, too. And because of the same reasons, dictators and those who attempt to control thought processes and to dictate mindsets will find the going rough - and perhaps (hopefully) dissolve into obsolence.

This genie is NEVER going back to the bottle!

The Hidustani word `desis` was originally used to differentiate between those living in the plains from those living in the mountains who were called `paharis`. This was also prevalent in pre-partition India. So the term applies to all Indians and Pakistanis who live in the Indo-Gangetic plains. So why the fuss if Pakistanis are also called desis which they are. Some Pakistanis unfortunately will go to any extent to disown their Indian origins.

The Hidustani word `desis` was originally used to differentiate between those living in the plains and those living in the mountains who were called `paharis`. This was also prevalent in pre-partition India. So the term applies to all Indians and Pakistanis who live in the Indo-Gangetic plains. So why the fuss if Pakistanis are also called desis which they are. Some Pakistanis unfortunately will go to any extent to disown their Indian origins.

Just a quick reply to Ahmedzai about the word ‘desi’ from a Punjabi point of view, I have never heard this word in Pakistan at all. The only word I heard was ‘des’ from my older aunts and uncles and my grandparents, and this was always in reference to India. Often used like ‘… when we left des, such and such an event happened…’ ‘… it was almost a year after we left des that I met so and so in Multan/Samundari/Lylpur…’ Des referred to their part of Indian Punjab that they left and even now it used by my older cousins in the same way. The only time I have heard ‘desi’ is in the realm of herbal medicine, ‘desi alaaj’ ‘yunani alaaj’ etc.

The word ‘desi’ in reference to identity seems to be a North American thing. You hardly heard it before the influx of Skilled Indians into North America. In Britain the terminology is Asian, and this covers all South Asians, The word ‘desi’ has still to catch on with South Asian people in the UK, am not sure if it will.

In Pakistan people use the words Vatan, Millet, Sar Zameen, and Shehri, Shehriyat, as these are proper Urdu words as opposed to desi, des, nagri, naagrik, which are more Hindi sounding. And as you all know since partition both Hindi and Urdu have been moved poles apart from each other, as a tool the governments have used to consciously differentiate their people from each other.

Sorry forgot to mention,

Pakistani term for other Pakistani is `Hum Vatan` as opposed to `desi`

59, ally,

this is another example of forced Arabization of Pakis just like Sanskritization of E Pbis......

Your parents` generation used it and your or today`s generation doesn`t.....it means your parents were Desis, and all of you came from Arab

#61 by kaurasach

``Your parents` generation used it and your or today`s generation doesn`t.....it means your parents were Desis, and all of you came from Arab``


Yeah! Why does it bother you mongrel!

Kaura,

My parents and grandparents don’t/didn’t use the word desi the way it is used today in North America and India and by North American Pakistani people, as I mentioned below, the only time (even today) you’ll see the word desi in common usage in Punjab is in association with herbal medicine.

For the context with which the word desi is used today, there are many different words in our language. Examples:

English Punjabi

S/He is desi Eh apna/i pakistani/hindustani/Punjabi eh…
This is desi food Eh apna/Hindustani/Pakistani/Punjabi/kashmiri khana eh
Desi books and cd’s Punjabi kitabaN tey CDiaN
Desi issues Apney/apney logaN de masley

In this way the word desi is almost English. Think about it, when in Punjabi would you ever use the word desi, it is usually in a totally different way than in English, you would use it to say things like desi murghi, desi duva, desi hakeem, desi alaaj… but not desi loag, desi khana, desi kitabaN etc. the word desi isn’t used that way in Punjabi as it is in English, either in Indian or Pakistani Punjab.

If we ever talk to our parents and grandparents about India (very rarely – unless about some long lingering family dispute) then we would say des, as in our family it has come to mean their old village in India that they left eons ago.

You can say in Punjabi MeiN apney vatan challaN or MeiN apney Mulk challaN (I am going to my country) if we were going back to Pakistan for a visit or whatever. However, if you say MeiN apney des challaN, this has much stronger connotations, and would usually be said with a bit more emotion than just Vatan or Mulk. By saying des you are saying your land, your village, the part of the country you belong to, the part that you have an emotional attachment with, not just any city or village, but that which you pine for, long for, and feel for, your dharti, your mitthi.

Re: # 63

I agree with what Ally says with one exception. I haven`t heard the word ``desi`` used in India the way I`ve heard it in the US. I never encountered this word growing up and working in Bombay. The first time I heard it used was when I landed in the US . I`m not sure how the younger folks in India use it now (must check up on my nephews and neices). I remember even our milkman or dhobi going back to his mulk (pronounced ``muluk``) for his annual holiday.
I suppose you have to get out of India to become a ``desi``.

And I`m not sure about just us segregating people based on community. My brother lives in France and he has funds of stories to tell about the way various countries treat the inhabitants of the others. The French against Belgians against the Dutch against the Germans etc....

It`s there everywhere. Look at all the jokes in the US about the hillbillies and West Virginians. And the South always had better gentlemen and soldiers than those damn Yankees.