Are We The Most Racist Of Them All?

chupp oye, kalie! gallan karda aye, shakal wekkhiye?

looking into the looking glass darkly eh

-- yes we are -- not among the mostest racists of the world -- just the average run of the mill racist, castetist, colorist, mocking the handicapist, ethnicists, languagist, religionist , regionalists, provencialist, bombist of crowde bazars, mobist, arsonist, stabbist, human barbecueist......of the world...not the world`s worst....just the moderately worst.....

Excellent article. I spent my early childhood in various parts of the country but have lived in Delhi from the ages of 7 to 17. A kaala Madrasi myself, I remember the shock I felt when some other 7 year old children of my age refused to play with me because I was too dark. And the how puzzled I was when, at 14, someone asked me what caste I was.

In college in Bangalore, I learnt very quickly about the slang ``CHOM``.

CHOM is quite a useful acronym - it refers to a concept in International Law called ``Common Heritage Of Mankind``. The intent was to refer to some people from the North as sort of a Dark Man`s Burden - they`re there, they`re illiterate, materialistic, misogynistic, uncultured and breeding like flies up north and we just have to cope with the drag on resources and peace they are.

CHOMs were people mainly from the North but it referred in the main to a state of mind. You could find South Indian or Marathi or Telugu choms, but you`d have to look.

My job places me in Delhi - the heart of CHOMLand as it`s called - and having lived in Bangalore and Calcutta and having visited Bombay and Madras frequently, I can say that the capital of Chom Land is the armpit of India.

While it`s got great food, excellent facilities, booming job opportunities, a vibrant cultural life and complete anonymity it`s also a highly communal, misogynistic, aggressive, casteist and racist hellhole.

What strikes me particularly about our dear capital, nestled lovingly in the lap of gentle Haryana, is that it`s marinated in the concept of Aukaat - Aukaat rules much of how Delhiites interact with each other - it`s an infernal calculus, derived, among other things, from the fairness of your skin, the accent with which you speak English, how much visible wealth you display, your job, the extent of your contacts and your caste. Aukaat describes how brutal / servile you can / should be to others and how servile / brutal they should / can be to you.

The South`s no land of milk and honey, either. Bangalore`s stifling and insular. Calcutta, close to dead, Madras ossified. And being one myself, I can state that Keralites or Malayalis are hypocritical, misogynistic and regard themselves as supercilious. Despite the MScs and PhDs that many of my female relatives hold, they`re still not treated as equals by their spouses.

And the acronym CHOM - racist, discriminatory, violent - of course. Some people claim it`s a defense mechanism or a ``reaction``. I`m not so sure.

Racism, colourism, sexism, communalism - all alive and well.

racism is found everywhere, in some places more than others, I don`t think we rank as the most racist though. Probably because we are a colonized race, and used for slave labor historically. I think the ``white man`` takes the cake for being the most racist. Historical events like the Holocaust and the institutionalization of slavery in the US, outweigh the burden of cast separation in South Asia.

Rakesh and AS, is `kala Madrasi` still a commonly used label? I thought those kinds of experiences had become somewhat less frequent, and every kid in India now wanted to be like that kala Avul Pakir Jainulabdeen Abdul Kalam.

If we are still stuck where we were fifteen years ago then we are in deep trouble.... :(

---

Some color consciousness seems to be built into our genes. Have you guys talked to some Africans?

I am really glad you figured out that Indians can discriminate. What an earth-shattering discovery! The next time an NRI starts ``discovering`` India from a distance for the millionth time - it will be - well, it will be for the millionth time!

NOW we are all set!

Down with the discrimination! On with the clean-up brigade!

Let`s get those culprits all straightened out.

Ooops, there is just ONE problem - how do we do it?

(I personally would start out with many chowkies here - but leave out the editorial staff - they NEVER discriminate - you see, they don`t have that ability. (They can`t even discriminate between a blog and a legitimate article!))

Dear writer
I beg your pardon, when you talk about (desis), collectively for Indian and Pakistanis. I do not agree with this word(desis). This word desi is only for Indians, not for Pakistanis. We do not call ourselves desis. Although there is nothing wrong in using this word, but, the origin of this word being used in your article is from India. You and I both know, India and Pakistan are two separate countries with their separate cultures and identities.

I am not being racist here, yes, I do need to have my own identity being Proud Pakistani with my own identity. I am absolutely NOT Indian desi. Indian desi is a beautiful term to be used by Indian people for their own identity. I respect their identity. But, I respect my own separate identity as well.

If, I am not Indian, then why should I be called(desi)?

Yes, I agree with you, there is too, much discrimination in India based upon cast system. Untouchables and high class hindus is a clear cut racist discrimination. thank you for good article.

Zeena -- desis means natives....

Re: # 7
re: Zeena

If you choose not to describe yourself as not being a desi, that`s your prerogative. *shrug* *roll eyes*. I believe the author of the article was referring to various racist practices that he believes are endemic to the societies of both India and Pakistan. And, as far as he`s concerned, he didn`t even address caste. nasah and I were the ones to bring up the issue of caste.

You say:

``Yes, I agree with you, there is too, much discrimination in India based upon cast system. Untouchables and high class hindus is a clear cut racist discrimination.``

You`re agreeing with a point that no one is making. The point of the article is not about caste discrimination in India - it`s about race bias in India AND Pakistan.

What, for example, are your views on race / colour discrimination in India / Pakistan ?

Re: # 6
re: bjkumar

Off the top of my head,

1. Make your displeasure known when your peers/co-workers/parents say something racist.
2. Remain alert for prejudices inside oneself.
3. Compel opinion makers to take public positions on race. Sustain the debate that ensues.

Wishful thinking:

1. Movies to be made that take strong positions on the issue, clearly breaking race taboos.
2. Break prevailing stereotypes in advertising. Can we finally get over Padosan?

#9 Aha_Snark
This article is all about being racist among Indian society itself and about competing it`s racism with out of the country.

There is no difference between caste discrimination and race discrimination. What is your point then??

When Hindus discriminate untouchables as lower caste, it is same as discriminating on thwe basis of a race.
Well, if, I take your point as to be valid then Hindus should include untouchables as their own race, why this discrimination? Obviously , their caste is based on their race.

I made my point based on this article, sorry , you made totally wrong assumptions on my post based on your own opinion.

All I am saying is, Indian and Pakistani societies are different based on their cultural systems, we shouldn`t mix them or diffuse them as one. That is the sole reason, we do not wish to be called desis. We wish to save our own identity based on our separate nation and country, called Pakistan.

#8 nasah
I don`t have any problem with this word,``desis``. The point I am making is, this word is absolutely used for Indians. I am not Indian, so, why should I use this word for my identity.
Thanks

There is another affliction that is worse and peculiar to Desis.......cannibalism.........

their behavior towards their own is despicable at best....

for ex- an Indian official at the airport will treat a fellow Indian as a piece of garbage....while gingerly perform a fellatio on a gora......

#10 Anirudha

Those are fabulous points. Just brilliant! (You are not a chowk editor, by any chance? (I did not think so.))

I would add a few more points to yours (the term ``you`` is generic and not just for you):

(4) Be honest and don`t apportion your compassion based on prejudices and don`t beat up on the underdog (i.e., you don`t HAVE to be a Hindu to sympathize with the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, for example. (OR a Muslim to feel for Bangladeshi migrants - sympathizing for one side and vilifying the other shows a hollowness of your own core))

(5) Be honest and accept it when you screw up on issues - there is no real RESPECT from people who claim to do so because of your rigidness. Those who have the courage to tell you when you screw up are your true well-wishers.

I got to think some more.

By the way, Anirudha, why didn`t YOU write this article - probably it would be more complete.

#9 Zeena
Are all Pakistanis one race?

#13 bjkumar
No, all Pakistanis are not one race. But, all Pakistanis are chained together through this beautiful chain of nationality called Pakistani, which is their only idnetity. Once, they are Pakistanis, then all other races are left far, far, far behind. Thanks

#12 kaura
[There is another affliction that is worse and peculiar to Desis.......cannibalism.........]

Dear Kaura,

Are you a desi?
If so, are you cannibalistic?
(If so, do your neighbors know?)

Zeena,

God forbid you be called a desi :)

Some Pakistanis do identify with the word. Mr. Mani could have had those people in mind. Please give him the benefit of doubt. Overlook this grievous error on his part.

Re:Zeena

You think Pakistanis are not racist? Are you kidding? Pakistanis are 10 times more racist than Indians. Just look at the way they treated Bengalis which led to 1971 and the behavior towards Mohajirs in Karachi. That is pure racism!! We Indians have race and ethnic issues but at least our country didnt break up due to racism, unlike Pakistan in 1971.

Re:this article

Of course, India is racist. Why is that surprising? For the past 5000 years, the subcontinent has a history of fair skinned outsiders coming and ruling over the natives. Starting with the Aryans, then the muslims and finally the british. It is the same pattern that has been repeating for millenia. No wonder, we have an inferiority complex towards white skin and Aryan looks. Even today, we have slur words in hindi/urdu for a dumb guy like `Anari` which translates exactly to being non-Aryan.

It is claimed that the caste system originated as a racist construct between aryans and non-aryans and later on adopted other attributes like profession. No one has maintained accurate records on this matter, but just from racial features, upper castes across India tend to have fairer skin and aryan looks on the average as compared to lower castes.

The real issue is whether we can transcend the racism in our culture. The answer is absolutely YES. Americans have managed to control racism in the past 40 years when they had the most outrageous segregation. South Africans have managed to control it when they had vicious apartheid 20 years back. Europeans have grown out of it when they were extreme racists just 60 years back. As compared to all that, India is on a much better moral footing. We have outlawed casteism since 1947 and instituted quota based affirmative action. Of course casteism/racism still exists but the government does not sanction it unlike the US/South African/European governments in the recent past. Most important aspect is India`s economic growth and our emergence as a economic superpower. It is indeed breaking racist and casteist stereotypes as we outperform the west and we realize that it is the individual that matters, not his or her race/caste.

I think N. Indians need to learn one S. Indian language as part of their regular curriculum. That will rid them of their Hindi chauvinism(my own mother tongue is Hindi btw).

Also each year should be celebrated by govt., educational institutions and general public as the year of 4 chosen states, one from each South, North, East and West during which those states` arts, literature, culture, language, history, tourism, etc is celebrated by the whole country. The next year should be the year of another 4 states. It shouldn`t be left to chance or circumstance for Indians to know about each other.

#17 ranjit
No, Pakistanis are absolutely not racists like Indians.

Mohajirs were plundered and looted by Hindus in 1947 and then they migrated to Pakistan. Pakistan has wellcome them with open arms. They were never treated inferior in any aspect. Sorry, your presumptions are wrong. President is Mojagir, PM is mojagir. so. what is left?

Re: # 20

zeena, you are right you are not a desi. You are a pakistani painDu. You belong to FATA and the panchyat culture. Non-painDu Pakis like raw_dust are trying to get you out of your goat-herding background and give you opportunities to migrate out of your backwardness. New Jersey is your new home. Be thankful and quit itraa-ying (ask an Urdu speaker what itraa-ying means).

Non-painDu Pakis are desis with close ties with Hindus and Hindustani culture. You are not a desi by virtue of your goat-herding background, but non_painDu Pakis are. You share your Paki-ness with non-painDu Pakis like MNI, who in turn share their desiness with Indians like arjun and Gandhi.

PaniDu = people from pinD.

Ref Zeena #11

[I don`t have any problem with this word,``desis``. The point I am making is, this word is absolutely used for Indians. I am not Indian, so, why should I use this word for my identity.]

You are right. We are desis; you are a Paki.

Now, would you make the difference clear to the skinheads of London who beat up Indians thinking they are Paki-bashing?

Ref Zeena #14

[No, all Pakistanis are not one race. But, all Pakistanis are chained together through this beautiful chain of nationality called Pakistani, which is their only idnetity. Once, they are Pakistanis, then all other races are left far, far, far behind. Thanks]

Hey, I thought the chain was something called Ummah and you are all connected to the camel jockeys of Saudi Arabia.

No race in Pakistan, eh? How about those Sayyids, you know, the direct descendants of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) Himself?

How about all those named Taimur or Genghiz? Aren`t they the descendants of conquerors of yore? And how about people with Persian names like Pervez (pronounced in the English language as `Perverts`)?

I think you have got plenty of races within Pakistan. Ask a Sindhi or a Baloch what he thinks of a Punjabi.

harimau
Please, read my posts with clarity of your mind. I am saying pakistan is a mixture of different races chained in one identity , called Pakistani. Do you have a problem with that?
Why?
I am surprised, why?
Tell me Pakistan and India are not two different countries? yes, of course they are. Then why Pakistanis should have same identity as Indians? In that case, why all this separate nation issue? Why two nation theory?

As for as some stupid brits mixed up Indians and Pakistanis, that is their retardedness, I am not responsible for thier moronish behaviour. All I am standing up for is, I am Pakistani, nothing else, no desi shesi. I have my own solid identity, which is separate from India, Iran, Afghanistan, China, etc, etc.

Re:Zeena#20

[...No, Pakistanis are absolutely not racists like Indians...]

I noticed how conveniently you ignored my point of Pakistani racism against Bengalis leading to 1971. Did 1971 occur or not? Did West Pakistanis treat Bengalis with extreme racial bias?

If you deny this, either you are completely ignorant of your country`s history or are so blinded by jingoism that you will not even acknowledge historical facts.

As far as Mohajirs are concerned, please ask my friend Salim Chauhan, who frequents this forum. He is from Karachi and can give you first hand account of the bitter racism and oppression he encountered growing up in Karachi.

By the way, I admire your nationalistic fervor. Believe me, I am also very nationalistic about India. However, that does not mean that I will deny the weaknesses of India and where we are lacking as a country.

Re:zeena#24

[...All I am standing up for is, I am Pakistani, nothing else, no desi shesi....]

Desi is a catch-all term for all South Asians. It is does not deny anyone`s nationality. Its like calling someone a European even though he may be French, German, Italian etc.

I know you are from NWFP and probably think you are some kind of a gori superior to all of us desis. Unfortunately for you, in the west, we are all desis, irrespective of how fair or dark your skin is.

Re: # 11
re: Zeena:

Pakistanis are not desi, eh ? Separate culture, don`t-group-one-with-the-other eh ? ``We do not call ourselves desis Well, I respect your impulse to try and ``... save our own identity based on our separate nation and country, called Pakistan.`` but I`d be a lot more convinced of a completely separate identity if language, religion, dress, movies, tv serials, food, poetry, literature, music, and even fashion styles did not overlap so much.

Oh, and I did a search on desis and pakistan. As I thought, there are many whose Pakistani identity will not automatically dissolve and become corrupt if they continue to use a word that has been in Urdu for generations.

And a funny article, too, on the usenet group soc.culture.pakistan

Zeena, no one is trying to assimilate your identity with the Indian one. The author has made a point about racism in India and in Pakistan. I asked if you have any comments on that. Your only contribution has been to point out that you are not desi, that Pakistani nationalism subsumes all concept of race and that casteism and racism are one and the same.

And yes, casteism and racism have significant overlap - but they are not the same. Person X of Y caste and person Z of W caste will often have to consider their differing castes before marriage, even if they look similar and have been living in the same area for generations.

Re: # 19

Sadna:

I agree with you on this one, my mother tongue is also Hindi. Indian identity must be defined at parity for all Indians, and Hindi speaking Indians cannot become the first among the equals, by giving Hindi any higher status than the other languages.

Anil

Yo Snarky

If Zeena says she is NOT desi - then she is not desi.... what`s your problem with that?.... let pakis be just pakis - no need to further confuse an already neurotic group of people.... it works better for everybody.....

Dudh ka Dudh, pani ka pani - Desi ka Desi, Paki ka Paki..... :)

Congratulations Rakesh Mani.
It takes guts to show the dirt in our own belly button.
Over a century ago when people of the Subcontinant were taken to Africa and other colonies initially as indentured labourers to build the railways or what ever else the British wanted us to do, we saw the indigenous people there as Blacks, although some of them were lighter skinned than us and yet we immediately created a new race—Kaaria, Kaaley, Nehrey etc!
A century later the chicken came to roost in the form of Idi Amin and other riots against us in many parts of Africa.
Still old habits die hard!
Although I understand, scientifically there is no such thing as a Race, but racism has its own meaning. Example:
Many years ago Filip Wilson, an Afro-American comedian accidently dropped his white handkerchief on the stage floor while walking off the Stage. His manager, a white man bent to pick it up. Filip immediately turned round to face the audience and quipped “this is the first time a white man went cotton picking”. The statement was an enormous hit with the audience!
By the way are Desis and Pakis two different races? No no don`t bother to answer. The posts have made it clear.
Rashid

Re: # 24
I second the opinion. Pakistanis in-house are never stringent inter-racist, but Pakistan has been let down by the foreign lobbies.
Pakistan is wanted to be seen deplored in crisis politically, economically, culturally. The influx of cultural entertainment is to target the ignorant masses.

Pakistanis need leadership and associated coverage - there are many Lakshmi Mittals in Pakistan, unreported. What is reported is unfound rape cases.

racism exists where people have time to rant their neighbours, the local government, the mohallas, the chowks where people gather in the evening.
Unemployment masala is racism, into which adds the grapevine too.

Some Terminologies for Chowkies

It is observed that Chowkies use many terminologies in addressing each other in the interactive forums. They are generally limited to Moron(mostly used), Stupid, Fool and Idiot.

Here are some more for them :-

Bonehead, Dummy, Dullard, Dunce, Buffoon, Duffer, Jackass, Sucker, Fathead, Nerd, Clown, Joker, Screwball, Wag, Madcap,Duckegg,Pinhead,Baboon.

Or try this subcontinental stuff :-

Ullu, Nalayak, Bevkoof, Gadha, Pagal, Khat-dimag, Pajama, Lallu, Be-akal, Akal-ka-dushman, Akal-key-paidal, Akal-key-kacchey.

#19 sadna, #28 anil

Yours are well-intentioned comments each but (in addition to being impractical) they happen to be off-the-mark.

Chauvinism does not come through the language and it does not go away by learning more languages. Some of the most prejudiced individuals have been highly educated literary scholars (the example of Gore Vidal comes to my mind (I am not an expert on him)). And knowing many languages does not get rid of narrow-mindedness. An argument can be made that this site is teaming with chauvinists – everyone of which knows at least two languages (English in addition to their own) – what has changed over the last 7-8 years? (Go back and look at the earlier postings – the answer is – precious little.)

It’s little to do with any part of the culture. Chauvinism begins at home. And the knowledge of language (the vehicle) is not a prerequisite for the understanding of cultures – it used to be so once – but in this day and age the language is simply an appendage of the culture.

From the communication point of view – which is the original purpose behind having a language, Hindi and Urdu are more similar than different (in spite of the more recent attempts to emphasize on and to artificially and consciously build upon the differences) – people who know one of these have rarely difficulty understanding the spoken version of the other. Yet the chasm remains between the communities that claim each as their exclusive mother! The chasm remains – because its underlying poison gets injected (in my view, more among the Muslims of Pakistan, some of whom have invested too many of their emotions into what I consider a mirage and as that mirage continues to recede – such individuals continue to beat upon those hot sands in frenzy!) and then it gets reinforced through repetition – and demagogues (both in uniform as well as in civilian clothes) take advantage of it!

These are miraculous times when it is possible to learn about other cultures (or big parts of those) without what used to be the absolute necessity of having to learn their languages.

As technology evolves, enlightenment is sure to follow – the only question is will it come in a timely manner for our brethren on the other side of that border?

This is a great article. The worst thing to me is when Indians and Pakistanis call Black Americans as ‘Kala’ very disdainfully, although most of them ‘Desis’ are darker than the black Americans and even not physically as great as them.

Zeena is right in two ways:

1. Somebody had posted ‘Desi’ links on Pakistan proving his point, I believe Pakistanis generally do not use this word. It is too non-Urduish. At least Pakhtuns, Urdu speaking, Sindhis, and Kashmiris don’t use this word. Perahps a Punjabi on this site will like to add his viewpoint here. The origin of this word is ‘Dais’ meaning native land. Pakistanis tend to use its Urdu equivalent ‘Watan’ more often than not. The word ‘Desi’ seldom appears while we are talking to each other. It is perhaps when we refer to Indians and Pakistanis together in the USA, that we use the term. I have not heard this term being used by Pakistanis in the UAE, Bahrain, Australia and Canada.

2. In Pakistan there are ethnic biases, but generally no racism. For example, a Mohajir may call a Punjabi ‘Punj-aibi’ (referring to a religious term for a person with his 5 big religious sins), Punjabi may call a Pakhtun ‘Kho-chay’ (referring to our speaking two words very often), a Pakhtun may call a Mohajir ‘Hindustora’ (referring to the origin of the Mohajirs). However, all the 3 communities inter-mingle and cross-cultural marriages amongst different ethnic groups are common, provided they are arranged. Admittedly, there can be serious repercussions, if marriages are carved out without the blessings of the elders.

Ranjit referred to Bangladesh. Yes, that was the only example that fits the topic on racism. However, soon after BD came into being, most of the prominent members of the founding family was murdered and one party in the two party politics of that country emerged as pro-Pakistan. However, instead of Pakistan, I would attribute all of this to a general Bengali characteristic of forgiving others on their wrong-doing. I have many examples from personal experience where I have seen that Bengalis generally forgive when the wrong doers apologize. I am sure this personal trait has become national character also.

#34

It is not that complicated. At the basic level, prejudice is fueled by lack of information about the other. Learning another language and its literature and its associated cultural, geographical and historical contexts increases information about the other and opens up the different world of the other. Many educated N.Indians don`t even bother to know what languages are spoken where in India. How many N.Indians know of even one nonHindi poet or writer or classic from another part of the country?


At a more sublimal level, while learning another language is to absorb a different set of cultural idioms and to be different from a person knowing only one`s own. To encompass more than one cultural idiom in oneself is an organic way of being tolerant.

Correction: At a more sublimal level, learning another language is to absorb a different set of cultural idioms and to be different from a person knowing only his own.

#36 Sadna

The point ma’m was that there needs to be that “openness to learn” and the language is incidental. If such openness is absent, all the mastery of the vernacular will fail – worse than all the king’s horses and all the king’s men – a phenomenon sometimes (or perhaps more than sometimes) observed even in THIS little “kingdom”!

bjkumar
Correct. That is why N.Indians have to be caught (and taught) at a young age in school before their minds close.

Ahamdzai

Until fairly recently, the term desi was not inappropriate for a Pakistani. The `Pakistani` culture one thought of was the culture of Lahore and of Karachi of an earlier era.

Lately, people from places like Bajaur, Charsada, Peshawar are finding their rightful place in defining Pakistan and its culture, both inside and in the eyes of outsiders. Historically, these men and women had more to do with Afghanistan and Afghanis than with Punjab and Punjabis, or Sindh and Sindhis (the latter being, one suspects, as racist and tradition-bound as the rest of us).

If this development is not an aberration, and represents a long-term, planned shift toward embracing traditional Afghanistani and Middle-Eastern cultures (and these are and were great cultures with proud warring traditions), then soon nobody would confuse a Pakistani for a desi.

Like India`s, Pakistan`s culture too is up for grabs. People like you and Zeena can surely make your contribution in moulding it.

By the same token, I have met a number of S. Indians who refuse to accept Hindustani classical music as classical music or as music worth the name. And the other day there was this educated S. Indian columnist calling Hindi a foreign language and N.Indian Hinduism as unauthentic *rolling eyes icon*. This when there is so much of Hindustani music, Hindi and N Indian brands of Hinduism pervading media and public sphere.

You`ve got to wonder what people from the North East (about whom there is relatively very little or nothing at all in the public sphere) put up with, from the entire set of thickheaded ignorants that we are in the rest of India.

Re:bjkumar and sadna

We are overlooking the role of economics in facilitating national integration. In my opinion, the greatest reason why India is together is because most of us realize that it is in our interest to stay together. The economies of scale and the synergies of being a large nation complety outweighs our petty parochial instincts. In that respect, India is no different from the US which is also a melting pot of even greater magnitude. You dont need to force immigrants in US to learn English - they have to do it to succeed. The same applies in India.

Consider this. A lot of north indians pursue jobs in the high tech sector and have to live in Hyderabad, Banaglore or Chennai. In that scenario, it is self-defeating to have a very parochial attitude of racism towards south indians. Also when you live in these places, you have to interact with everyone, pick up the language and integrate with the local culture. Your kids grow up there and so on. The same way south indians take jobs in Delhi, Mumbai or Kolkata and go through exactly the same experience. The parts of the country that are not integrated properly like Kashmir or the North-East are essentially due to their lack of full participation in the national economy.

Therefore, the key for national integration is to basically expand the economy at a blistering pace by accelerating reforms, investing in infrastructure and spreading education. Also it is important to ensure that the maximum number of people from all parts of India can participate in the juggernaut. The rest will take care of itself. As they say - ``Baap bada na bhaiyya, Sabse bada Rupaiyaa``!!

ranjit, you put forward sabse bada argument. Additionally, the economic and political gains of the South will tranform the cultural landscape of India. Old prejudices will become harder to sustain.

#42 Ranjit

Some of what you say about economic considerations is true – but it is mere pipedream to say that such considerations wipe out the inbuilt prejudices which have been injected during childhood and nurtured through young ages by the family environment, schooling and the society at large and sometimes (as in the case of our Pakistani friends) the media at large – such prejudices usually lurk beneath the surface and are ready to strike at an opportune time.

We have seen it time and again in the US that every time the economy takes a dive, immigrants (usually the illegal ones but most people fail to make a distinction) become the favorite whipping boys – the easy targets – and don’t kid yourself that Indians are any different – we do the same with wherever we can find a visible target “minority” – be it of a different faith, race, or caste – you name it.

#40 by kaalchakra

“or Sindh and Sindhis (the latter being, one suspects, as racist and tradition-bound as the rest of us).”

Not true. Most Sindhi would not like to be associated with the kind of name calling and mocking that goes in India. Mohajirs, who moved from India, brought this in Sindh. Incidentally, they are the only group that ended up with several names. Mostly people did not like their attitude with local Sindhis, Balochis or Pathans.

What Ahmedzai said is mostly accurate. Sindhi, Balochi, Pathan or Punjabis rarely mock each other despite several political grievances against the Punjab.

This is tricky but I also think that Sindhi, Pathan and Baloch culture is somewhat different than overall Indian culture. Punjabi have much more in common with their Indian cousins in Punjab and Delhi but Sindhi, Pathan or Balochi really don’t share much with overall central India or what you call north Indian culture.

I agree with Zeena and Ahmedzai the word Desi is somewhat alien to Pakistanis.


I think the author is talking about regional biases and not racial differences but then the word Racist is tossed around everywhere for everything nowadays.

Aha_snark ,

That was an interesting article. Thanks.

ranjit #42
You are quite right, economics and the movement of people it results in, plays a significant role in national integration.

But economic reasons aren`t enough for peace, amity and `synergy` between peoples. After all, the English came to India and the US went to Iraq for economic reasons but one can`t argue that it resulted in lasting peace and amity no? And how about those `ashrafs` from a previous period who held themselves as separate ?

And Turkish immigrants went to Germany and Africans to France for largely economic reasons, but for instance fundamental problems between Turkish immigrants and the local Germans still exist. The issue of who should appreciate whose culture, how much and why is still not settled between them.

In India, the why is not an issue at all of course. All Indians are our brothers so we appreciate our brothers` food, cultural identity, concerns etc..

And in India, economic migration has been good for national integration. But as a rule I find that while a state X`s inhabitants who migrated to other states for jobs do become more tolerant, that does not make the inhabitants still remaining in state X more tolerant of outsiders from other states coming to state X for jobs. Being taught at a young age more about those outsiders before they come, will help according to me.

If I am not mistaken, India has given the constitutional right to linguistic minorities to have their own schools which has also helped ease some pressures between locals and migrants to some extent, IMO.

re: HP # 45

I am fortunate enough to know a number of (urban) Sindhis, and they are absolute gems of people. Culturally, in the openness of their minds and in their progressivism, they could teach us bhaiyyas quite a few lessons. Although if there were deep differences between them and other Indians, I didn`t really notice.

Balochis and Pathans are largely unknown quantities to most Indians. In my mind`s eye, Ahmadzai and Zeena appear as accomplished and wonderful representatives of their people. It would indeed be hard to discover much in common between these two excellent individuals and Indians.

But then, about Sindh and Sindhis too, I am forced to rely for my understanding on limited interactions with a few Hindu Sindhi families. You would have an infinitely better awareness of whether Sindhis have closer cultural ties with and are temperamentally similar to Pakhtoons and Balochis.

(Actually, Sindh fascinates me. I hope, some day, I am able to make a deeper study of it)

Totally agree with you about the misuse of the word `racist.` When this misuse is not foolish, you might agree, it is part of a deliberate campaign of misinformation, often by dyed-in-the-wool racists themselves :)

ranjit, sadna

An optimistic argument can be made that increased mutual understanding and mutual trust build economic efficiencies. `Synergy` between peoples (copyright Sadna) is an interesting concept. It can have economic payoffs.

Of course, beejay would rightly remind us that this is all too rosy and too simplistic. But he can be too cynical at times :) :)

Re:bjkumar#44 and sadna

Sorry, but I dont share your cynicism. If anything, India is becoming increasingly integrated. It is happening on its own, not due to some top down fiat from the central government or due to some government mandated ``educational`` program with catchy slogans on TV.

Every government tries for national integration. A lot of them fail, as is evident from our neighbor Pakistan. Things are working out in India because it benefits us to be an Indian, period. There are more opportunities for all of us. As an Indian, we can get a job anywhere in India, pursue better opportunities and live anywhere in India. It is beautiful. What would we get, just being able to live in Delhi or UP? Also being an Indian protects us from invasion from outside. If India were broken up tomorrow, Pakistan would walk in and try to pick up the pieces. We lived that way for centuries and paid a heavy price for it. It will never happen again.

Bottom line is that it does not benefit us to be just a Punjabi or a UPwallah or a Tamilian. I have been to Tamilian parties where people were listening to Daler Mehdi. This is without any government mandated program to ``educate`` Tamilians about Daler Mehdi. Yes we make fun of each other`s habits and customs, but so what? If all of us were the same, life would be so boring.

Re:sadna#46

[...After all, the English came to India and the US went to Iraq for economic reasons but one can`t argue that it resulted in lasting peace and amity no? And how about those `ashrafs` from a previous period who held themselves as separate ?...]

India`s national integration has been in the works for millenia. It cannot be compared to colonial rule or immigration of Turks to Europe. Indians have been moving around the subcontinent and settling down in various places for centuries. The ancient hindu rule, mughal rule and the british rule consolidated this process by providing a united political system. India`s freedom movement was a national movement, not a parochial process.

Our centrifugal instincts and our integration instincts have coexisted as a glorious duality for centuries. Whenever there was a conducive political system coupled with economic opportunities, we have consolidated willingly. Whenever, the political/economic system broke down, we got fragmented. Since our current political and economic dispensation is favorable, it is but natural that we see national integration happenning on its own.

As far as the `ashrafs` are concerned, the tide is turning. Even with all the conflicts and wars, Indians and Pakistanis are on fairly good terms at a people to people level unlike say the Israelis and Palestinians. As the political process becomes better on both sides, we are seeing steady integration happening at least at a cultural/social level e.g. movies, music, cricket etc. Once economics kicks in, it will become very strong. Thats why the fundos in Pakistan are so resistant to economic links because they know that once that happens, it is all over.

Ref sadna #19

[I think N. Indians need to learn one S. Indian language as part of their regular curriculum. That will rid them of their Hindi chauvinism(my own mother tongue is Hindi btw).]

Not at all. I think North Indians should learn only Hindi at their mothers` knees (to speak only, not learn to read or write it). The rest of India needs chaprasis, cooks, household help, road and construction workers, etc., and we are not prepared to pay good money for those services. So let us breed a couple hundred million more North Indians (while disenfranchising them by holding their representation in Parliament steady at 1970 levels).

The world NEEDS stupid people and North India is happy to supply them.

Re:harimau#51

And I respect all South Indians as my brothers.

Nice try at starting a flame war. No dice. :-)

#51
. I know a couple more people who think the rest of India exists only to get their certificate for intelligence, culture and everything good in life. You don`t HAVE to be that way, y`know- you could try digestive tablets.

#52 Ranjit

[Nice try at starting a flame war. No dice]

And in the same spirit, let it be known to all and sundry that this interactor considers Harimau (sometimes referred fondly as Harry Moe (as well as by far stronger terms)) as his (spiritual) dad - not for Harry`s soundness of ideas (regarding which there are legitimate doubts in all our minds) or even the soundness of the source of those ideas - but for his very individual particular flair - which this interactor may have (occasionally but faithfully) emulated - with far devastating results than the (dad) Moe could ever have envisioned!

Re: # 34

BJKumar:

``Chauvinism does not come through the language and it does not go away by learning more languages. ``

You are quite correct. Languages (including French), religions (India-Pakistan, Ireland), even nationalism (Nazis) have been misused as identities to divide people. Culture, social, economy of a nation (Unitted States, Canada, Brazil, evolving India) have been used to build national identities. It is misplaced icons used to build national identity which create problem. Swiss have multiple languages India`s evolution is happening in the knowledge based society, rather than industrial based. The paradigms are shifting, Bollywood, Cricket and IT create more Indian indentity than religion or languages. This shift will only accelerate as IT and BPO job creation moves to second and third tier cities in India, which is already happening. I was a college student during ``Down WIth Hindi - DWH`` times, and had gone to Bangalore from Delhi for the industrial training. Bangalore of then was so different, it certainly does not exist in the main stream anymore. In those days, bureaucrats from the south will come to the north to work in the government. Now entreprenuers and students from all over are increasingly going everywhere. Especially IT pprofessionals are even marrying as they want, and have no hesitation in moving to Bangalore to study or work, just as they have no problem moving to the U.S. and elsewhere. It is such trends in migration that create a melting pot in a society to create a unique national identity, which neither religious nor linguistic.

I am strongly in favor of eliminating northern chauvinism that gets identified in terms of language (s. Indian languages are difficult) and religion (northern hinduism is different) etc. Government must mandate at primary education (5 - 13 yrs.) that kids learn to be tri-lingual (mother tongue, regional language, English). Studies have shown kids at this age have no problem in learning more languages. The benefits are too numerous, as it gives a way to synthesize ideas, which are unique in one language.

Anil Kapuria

#55 Anil

Thanks for the elaboration, I see your vision a bit better now.

But I also (fore)see that down the road, education will be drastically different - knowledge will be gained from a variety of sources (not just books) and the modes of instructions would also be very different - perhaps software-based - and the individual natural languages (perhaps all of them) will slowly be sidelined.

I also see that - as a consequence - not so much a national identity but more of a universal identity building up everywhere - some of the signs are already there with us - we are calling it the capitalistic system in action and we tend to concentrate on the economics part of it but there are other effects, too. And because of the same reasons, dictators and those who attempt to control thought processes and to dictate mindsets will find the going rough - and perhaps (hopefully) dissolve into obsolence.

This genie is NEVER going back to the bottle!

The Hidustani word `desis` was originally used to differentiate between those living in the plains from those living in the mountains who were called `paharis`. This was also prevalent in pre-partition India. So the term applies to all Indians and Pakistanis who live in the Indo-Gangetic plains. So why the fuss if Pakistanis are also called desis which they are. Some Pakistanis unfortunately will go to any extent to disown their Indian origins.

The Hidustani word `desis` was originally used to differentiate between those living in the plains and those living in the mountains who were called `paharis`. This was also prevalent in pre-partition India. So the term applies to all Indians and Pakistanis who live in the Indo-Gangetic plains. So why the fuss if Pakistanis are also called desis which they are. Some Pakistanis unfortunately will go to any extent to disown their Indian origins.

Just a quick reply to Ahmedzai about the word ‘desi’ from a Punjabi point of view, I have never heard this word in Pakistan at all. The only word I heard was ‘des’ from my older aunts and uncles and my grandparents, and this was always in reference to India. Often used like ‘… when we left des, such and such an event happened…’ ‘… it was almost a year after we left des that I met so and so in Multan/Samundari/Lylpur…’ Des referred to their part of Indian Punjab that they left and even now it used by my older cousins in the same way. The only time I have heard ‘desi’ is in the realm of herbal medicine, ‘desi alaaj’ ‘yunani alaaj’ etc.

The word ‘desi’ in reference to identity seems to be a North American thing. You hardly heard it before the influx of Skilled Indians into North America. In Britain the terminology is Asian, and this covers all South Asians, The word ‘desi’ has still to catch on with South Asian people in the UK, am not sure if it will.

In Pakistan people use the words Vatan, Millet, Sar Zameen, and Shehri, Shehriyat, as these are proper Urdu words as opposed to desi, des, nagri, naagrik, which are more Hindi sounding. And as you all know since partition both Hindi and Urdu have been moved poles apart from each other, as a tool the governments have used to consciously differentiate their people from each other.

Sorry forgot to mention,

Pakistani term for other Pakistani is `Hum Vatan` as opposed to `desi`

59, ally,

this is another example of forced Arabization of Pakis just like Sanskritization of E Pbis......

Your parents` generation used it and your or today`s generation doesn`t.....it means your parents were Desis, and all of you came from Arab

#61 by kaurasach

``Your parents` generation used it and your or today`s generation doesn`t.....it means your parents were Desis, and all of you came from Arab``


Yeah! Why does it bother you mongrel!

Kaura,

My parents and grandparents don’t/didn’t use the word desi the way it is used today in North America and India and by North American Pakistani people, as I mentioned below, the only time (even today) you’ll see the word desi in common usage in Punjab is in association with herbal medicine.

For the context with which the word desi is used today, there are many different words in our language. Examples:

English Punjabi

S/He is desi Eh apna/i pakistani/hindustani/Punjabi eh…
This is desi food Eh apna/Hindustani/Pakistani/Punjabi/kashmiri khana eh
Desi books and cd’s Punjabi kitabaN tey CDiaN
Desi issues Apney/apney logaN de masley

In this way the word desi is almost English. Think about it, when in Punjabi would you ever use the word desi, it is usually in a totally different way than in English, you would use it to say things like desi murghi, desi duva, desi hakeem, desi alaaj… but not desi loag, desi khana, desi kitabaN etc. the word desi isn’t used that way in Punjabi as it is in English, either in Indian or Pakistani Punjab.

If we ever talk to our parents and grandparents about India (very rarely – unless about some long lingering family dispute) then we would say des, as in our family it has come to mean their old village in India that they left eons ago.

You can say in Punjabi MeiN apney vatan challaN or MeiN apney Mulk challaN (I am going to my country) if we were going back to Pakistan for a visit or whatever. However, if you say MeiN apney des challaN, this has much stronger connotations, and would usually be said with a bit more emotion than just Vatan or Mulk. By saying des you are saying your land, your village, the part of the country you belong to, the part that you have an emotional attachment with, not just any city or village, but that which you pine for, long for, and feel for, your dharti, your mitthi.

Re: # 63

I agree with what Ally says with one exception. I haven`t heard the word ``desi`` used in India the way I`ve heard it in the US. I never encountered this word growing up and working in Bombay. The first time I heard it used was when I landed in the US . I`m not sure how the younger folks in India use it now (must check up on my nephews and neices). I remember even our milkman or dhobi going back to his mulk (pronounced ``muluk``) for his annual holiday.
I suppose you have to get out of India to become a ``desi``.

And I`m not sure about just us segregating people based on community. My brother lives in France and he has funds of stories to tell about the way various countries treat the inhabitants of the others. The French against Belgians against the Dutch against the Germans etc....

It`s there everywhere. Look at all the jokes in the US about the hillbillies and West Virginians. And the South always had better gentlemen and soldiers than those damn Yankees.

swarrier, ally and HP:

I believe that the writer is not talking about regional biases that I also highlighted existed in Pakistan, but about downright racism.

Therefore, when a Mohajir calls a Punjabi `Punj-aibi` and Punjabi calls a Mohajir a `Tileer`, this is not racism. But when Pakistanis land in the UAE and call every southern Indian (a hardworking lot from Kerala/Tamil Nadoo, etc.) a Mallu very disdainfully, then it is racism.

When a Punjabi talks to Pakhtun talks to Mohajir talks to Sindhi, then he talks to the other from same pedastel. No body looks down the other to thrash him or anything. But when Pakistanis and northern Indians talk to a `Mallu` their whole bodily gestures show that they are talking to someone inferior. This is highly objectionable from every angle. I am against it, because it is totally wrong from religious perspective, as well as from secular perspective.

ally,

the context may change with distance or geography, but the meaning of desi remains same....

the word desh or desi is commonly used in N India - at least when I was around....

the Bhaias from UP and Bihar would always say, ``Babua, hum apnay desh chalay.``

Even Pbis....who visit far from their homes say.....time to return to desh.....since pb has been reduced in size, it doesnt make sense to say return to desh within Pb.

desi as ``indian`` is definately a later n. american phonomenan, and this word only showed up after the recent (post 80`s) large H1-B and indian student influx.

desi word was always used in india to designate ``local`` or kind of ``organic`` e.g. desi eggs, or desi liquor or desi murghi etc. the relatively self-confident NA diaspora picked up on that coinage to designate themselves. earlier generation would not use that term.

Re: # 65
I`m a little amused to find that Mallu has replaced the Madrasi syndrome in the UAE. But seriously it could be a question of economics. A lot of the initial Malayalee exodus to the Gulf would probably have been and probably was uneducated people doing menial jobs. They would belong to an economic strata that would be easier to discriminate against. But I wouldn`t call that racism. To be racist you would really have to prevent all forms of social contact. Relegate people to ghettos etc.
There has always been social contact between Indians, North and South. And I do know for a fact that in pre-partition India quite a few people from the South worked in places like Karachi and Lahore. In fact there is some Iyer ( I think Saminathan Ankleswara Iyer) who has written about his father being there just before the partition. So Pakistanis would not consciously discriminate against South Indians either if they were in a position to work or live in proximity to them.
Regional posturing , making fun of accents dressing etc will always be there.
I just think we are as bad as everybody else. Given the chance all societies can become extremely xenophobic. You should see the ``salarimen`` in Japan if you want xenophobia. They can be as good as any of us.
As long as you confine people under a blanket of a name, region, religion etc there is always the potential to discriminate. It`s never easy when you know individuals. They turn out to be just as human as you are wilth all the required prejudices, warts and even good qualities. -)

By the way I`m a Mallu. Except for my name which is a give-away people find it very difficult to stamp me to a
particular region of India. In the US I`ve been mistaken for a Mexican. Now would that another form of discrimination.

S

re:#20 by Zeena
You must be kidding when u say Pakis are not racists. It was Paki racism that caused the dismemberment of your nation in 1971. Bengalis could not take the kind of racism that was thrust on them by Pakjabi Army (Pakjabi means Paki Punjabi).
I have found Punjabis on both side of border to be some of the most racist people in the world.
Sridhar

re: racism in Bollywood
You need to go no further than bollywood to know how racists North Indians are. You will almost always find a Tamilian character in a movie who is made to look like a clown trying to speak hindi. Mehmood became famous by imitating (in utter bad taste of course) a ``madrassi`` in the movie Padosan. I think it caused public outrage in Madras and other places at the time.
Bollywood has not learnt in 50 years and neither have the Northies.
Sridhar

re:#42 by ranjit
How many Punjabees settled in Bangalore can speak Kannada u think? The answer is: zilch.
Leave aside speaking Kannada, most North Indians would not know which language is spoken in which South Indian state.
One colleague of mine during my medical school days (in Delhi) was surprised so many people could speak Hindi in Hyderabad (the idiot was confusing Urdu with Hindi) and commented that Hyderabad rightfully belonged to the North!
Sridhar

``The world NEEDS stupid people and North India is happy to supply them.``


LOL! There is and can be only one Harimau (just as there is and can be only one bjkumar) :)

rsridhar

Those mahmood type of roles were absolutely disgraceful. If North Indians are still creating caricatures like those, then Harimau definitely has a point about the natural and innate stupidity of North Indians. I so hope we are moving beyond that ignorant mentality.

anil #55 #28
Glad that we agree.

`Desi` is not as much a matter of language as of cultural affinity, of marking out of a diffuse grouping that connotes some kind of cultural similarity. There is desi mindset, desi manners (or lack of them), desi style, desi habits, etc.

Not all Indians learn the word `desi` as a part of their native language and vocabulary. Yet, since a shared Indian culture is emerging, albeit slowly, most Indians have no major issue with the word.

In Pakistan matters could be more complex. Some Pakistanis clearly see themselves as inheriting and taking part in creating a shared Southasian culture. Some don`t. Some obviously don`t fit in that fabric. Different people have varying responses to the word `desi.`

(Often, the word is used in a purely geographical - South Asian - sense. Then, it is just a label and can hardly be controversial. One can use any other label in its place.)

I left E Punjab, about a year and half ago, and I never heard the word desi used to refer to people, like Ally says it is used as desi ellaj, desi dawai, etc.
I think it is used by N.Americans to refer to people from desh i.e India.
Sridhar, just as N.Indians living in Bangalore cant speak Kannada, most South Indians cant speak Hindi, and its not confined to north/south. a Punjabi cant speak Rajasthani, Haryanvi, Bengali and vice-versa.
by the way, I am a north indian and I do know that in Tamil nadu the lang is Tamil, in Andhra Pradesh it is Telegu, in Karantaka it is Kannada, in Kerala Malaylee etc

Sridhar, bollywood streotypes are not just ``madrasis``, it has streotypes for punjabis, mainly sardars, biharis, bengalis, anglo indians etc , it does not discriminate.
Harimau arent you being racists by calling N.Indians stupid, I have come across south indians in delhi who believe they are the most cultured people around and make fun of n.indians.
Some of the most intelligent and gifted people come from the north, nobel prize winner hargobind khurana, the father of the green revolution, ms randhawa, our present prime minister, meera nair [ she is actually a nayar], deepa mehta etc.
my brother is married to a tamil, i dont find her relatives any more more intelligent than ours.

Re: # 76
At the risk of being pedantic, in Kerala the language is actually Malayalam, the people are Malayalee......-))))

I have found that racism and prejudice comes from ignorance and lack of education. One of the biggest factors in racism is fear. People in the 70’s feared that South Asian people were taking over Britain, but now ‘Curry’ is the national dish and South Asians contribute so much to the economy. If you call up a call centre and say your name is Ahmed, more than likely the person on the other end will ask if it is spelt with an A or an E at the end. South Asian culture has become amalgamated itself into British culture and it’s no longer exotic, just normal. Most white British people wouldn’t really be too bothered if their child was dating an Asian or non white person. The people with the problem would be our very own Asian people.

No matter how hard the white person tries they will never be good enough, many see them as caste-less, with lower morals, and less God fearing, than our own people. Even if the person converts and starts to speak our language. But then, who is ever good enough for your child?

The inter-race prejudice comes, I feel, mainly from our own insecurities, our lack of self confidence, our lack of self esteem, to make ourselves feel good or better we put down our own people. And we will use any and every means, ‘they are darker’ ‘they are stupider’ ‘they are uglier’ ‘they are cow worshippers’ ‘they are cow eaters’ they are this that and the next thing.

These things are further compounded by stereotypes, Sindhis are chalak, Baluchis will rob you, Punjabis are loud and over emotional, Pathans are dangerous, Kashmiris are lazy, The bhaias are kunjoos etc. Over the recent years I have seen Pathans from Afghanistan come into the Punjabi countryside, which for Punjabi people is quite daunting, they live in their own bastiaN away from the villages and a million and one stories are spread about them. My Baji doesn’t like us to stop at the adda that is across from their basti as she feels the men look dodgy, untrustworthy and shifty (yes can you believe it, there is are people that look dodgier than Punjabi people!) Contrary to belief, not all Pathans are fair skinned sturdy people. Their women never come out and mingle with other women and in the soaring heating they still wear that all encompassing dress.

In Faisalabad there is a Pathan family that lives in my massi’s neighbourhood, all they do is have kids, every second day you would hear gunshots being fired into the air because they had another kid (tho that I hear has calmed down). They don’t speak Punjabi or even much Urdu, and my little cousin puts stones in a shoe box and shakes it around to imitate the sound of their language. Again even in the city they don’t mingle with other people as much and over the years, I have never got to know any of them but many of the other mohalla vallahs. Their lack of integration has encouraged even more prejudices, and my aunties openly wish them back to Afghanistan or NWFP. Although a lot of prejudice in Punjab against Pathans can also be due to historical reasons, with the Pathan invasions where they didn’t even spare Muslim people, so there is an historical lack of trust.

Even my sister who was born and brought up here, on a recent visit to Kohat to visit her Jeth, Jethani, said to me ‘…when I seen the sign Welcome to Punjab, I felt relief…’ though I think that was more to do with language and home comforts, although it has to be said that coming from Punjab, NWFP seems very conservative, intimidating, and unsafe, partly from the stereotypes we have and partly from what we see there.

Despite this at the end of the day we know its in our advantage to stick together as a nation, and we do co-operate and get on with it, one of the best examples of this would be the very dull and boring city of Islamabad. My cousins there have friends from all provinces, communication is in Urdu, but they have taught each other a word or two of each others languages and my cousins have explained a lot to me about Sindhi, Balochi, Pathan, etc. cultures, their similarities to ours and the little quirks that they have. I often enjoy meeting their friends as there are so many different kinds and always so many questions to ask. However, these are all people of a certain class and education level and probably represent the more refined parts of their provinces and culture.

An interesting twist to this is when Indians come to Pakistan, there is no prejudice just an amazing amount of curiosity, a curiosity that’s not so strong when people from two different provinces meet. Its almost like India (old des) is the new valait version 2 (but the valaities speak our language too).

aman,

the Punjabi spoken in the last 15 years is not the Pbi I was brought up on................


Pathans/Afghans call Paki Punjabis ``Hindus``.... there is an Afghan pizza owner family in the neighborhood whose past time is bashing Pakis esp. Pbis.

indians love to stereotype because in india distinct identities are fiercely maintained.

punjabis will be loud and madrasis will eat with their entire hand. biharis/poorbhaiyyas will be crude ganwar (my panwala would always express a sentiment ``hi re garmi`` and fan his dhoti whenever a female passes by) and gujjus somehow are always in proximity to khaman dhokla.

and its like a fractal, in each larger nationality, there are sub-nationlities..e.g. tamil brahmins have sterotypical characteristics for iyers and iyengars..harimau and sridhars are expert on this but rarely bring it out ;-).. and ghatis talk of konkan brahmins as being cheap..

i however dont see anything negative in this..its all fun. no melting pot here..every flavor is distincly maintained in this khichadi.

re: jang # 81

Exactly. My prejudice of the day: One shouldn`t easily trust people who claim to harbor no prejudices at all. :)

“Pathans/Afghans call Paki Punjabis ``Hindus``....”

Indian knowledge of their culture and history is just flabbergasting.

Historically, the afghan called everyone East of River Indus, Hindu. Hindus are Hindu because afghan said so some thousand years ago before that Hindus had no idea what they were.
This is a major tragedy for a culture or even a religion that it is defined by the invaders.

What if Afghans had not called Indians, Hindu…What would have been the name for the religion now called Hindu?
Can someone take a guess?


I heard that now they are claiming that Hindu is a Sanskrit word, a compound word to hoot. The identity crisis in Hindus is so acute that some Hindu after claiming that Taj Mahal was actually a mandir, are now claiming that Red Fort was built by some Hindu raja too. The evidence is in couple of elephant statues guarding the gates and kaalchakra in some arch.

Re: # 83

You should be flabbergasted you know....
The Sanskrit word is Sindhu. The word Hind came from the Persians. It`s a corruption of Sindhu. The Sindhu to you now is the river Indus. And if you are so worried about etymological issues the word Pakistan has part of its origins in Sanskrit. ``Stan`` comes from the Sanskrit ``Sthana`` meaning place. It also is also related to the English stance, stand and the Latin stare..
And don`t give me that stupid explanation by Chowdhury Rehmat Ali about it being the initial letters of Punjab Afghania ...etc etc. I don`t think the Iranians would like it very much. Yes the I is supposed to stand for Iran.

And if some poor lisping Persians unable to form the word Sindhu and had not confused it with Hindu we would we have been nameless irreligous people.? Unfortunately it wouldn`t have been so good. -) Pity.

Officially in Sanskrit the Dharma would have been called Sanatana Dharma or Vaidika Dharma perhaps. Now that would have been a mouthful for some people.

By the way the most common usage of the word Afghan is dated after 928 AD. The origins of the word are murky but there is one version that seems to say that it comes from the Sanskrit word Avagana at it was used by the Indian Astronomer Varamahira in the 6th century (check the Encyclopedia Britannica). Similarly the word Pathan seems to come from either the Persian word Parsava or the Sanskrit word Prathisthana.
Now is the boot on the other foot?

#83 many forts were built on top of pre-existing forts..so elephants etc is not a big deal.

HP
[....What would have been the name for the religion now called Hindu?...]

The religion is also known as Sanatan Dharma.... that identity has always been there - with or without the invader-given name.... Similarly, The Indian subcontinent has always been known as Bharat and the people as Bharatiyas....

Either way - indians do NOT have an identity crisis regarding who they are and where they belong and where they are going.... And coming from a paki - that`s really rich :))

Are you stupid or just a paki?.....