Tortured Justification of Torture

#29 by Saminasha on February 11, 2006 5:48am PT


its MY dime that pays for all those helicopters, bullets, guns, etc. that are used against Palestinians, not Israel`s...so MY tax money is being appropriated and used AGAINST MY WISHES to torture, murder and detain people.


Trouble with reading? comprehension-challenged?


i`ve expressed my opinion: that the Us should stop aid to Israel..and if they kill the palis on their own dime, I could care less..


What part of ``my opinion: The US should stop aid to Israel`` and ``on their own dime`` wasn`t clear?

Arjun,

Ah, another touching viewpoint from our resident fascist...i swear, Arjun, it seems when you post, there isnt a dry hanky in the house...

along with your lazy justifications of zionism, you`ve thrown in a whopper of a lie....its MY dime that pays for all those helicopters, bullets, guns, etc. that are used against Palestinians, not Israel`s...so MY tax money is being appropriated and used AGAINST MY WISHES to torture, murder and detain people.

Now, where is the liberty and democratic process in that?

#27 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 3:05pm PT


And don`t accuse me of cherry picking when Zionist apologists like yourself attempt to equate critiquing Zionism with anti Semitism.


Total strawman..What`s this, national logical fallacy day?

Show me where I`ve said criticizing zionism (or Israel for that matter) is anti-semitism...And then i`ll show you my posts where i`ve expressed my opinion: that the Us should stop aid to Israel..and if they kill the palis on their own dime, I could care less..


I have absolutely no problem in pointing out that any colonized population under siege by an occupying power will eventually move towards extreme answers.


that`s all in the eyes of a beholder..Israelis consider the land theirs and they see themselves under seige from arabs who want them all dead..I`ve always maintained that if enough suicide bombs go off, Israeli public opinion might turn in favor of deporting all arabs, including Israeli citizens...

Arjun,

Are you going to surprise us all and claim that the election of Hamas as the ruling leadership in Palestine does not disturb, oh mouthpiece of the rightwing? I have absolutely no problem in pointing out that any colonized population under siege by an occupying power will eventually move towards extreme answers. Israel`s collective policies and implementation of arbitrary imprisonment, land confiscation, martial laws, militarization of the civillian zones AND use of torture makes it clear to ALL Palestinians and the world, that there are TWO sets of laws: one that applies to colonizers and another that applies to the colonized. These kinds of hypocrisies make it possible for Mr. Harris` book to be taken seriously.

And don`t accuse me of cherry picking when Zionist apologists like yourself attempt to equate critiquing Zionism with anti Semitism.


Human Rights
Detention and Torture
During the course of the Palestinian uprising, the Israeli authorities have conducted a widespread arrest campaign against suspected Palestinian activists. Numerous detainees were held without charge or trial and more were prohibited from receiving visits from lawyers and relatives. (Added 20 October 2003)

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Key Events

BY TOPIC: Palestinian Prisoners` Hunger Strike (15 August 2004-)


Detention

Prison experience as a normal part of life, Ray Smith (10 February 2005)

Release of children should be a priority, DCI-PS (29 December 2004)

Arrest of Palestinian Human Rights Defender, HRW (6 August 2004)

Adminstrative detention, risk of ill-treatment or torture, OMCT (31 July 2004)

Assume the position: a play about prison is followed by arrests, Amahl Bishara and Nidal al-Azraq (29 May 2004)
2003: The State of Human Rights in Israel, ACRI (10 February 2004)

Marwan Barghouti: ``Why don`t you refuse?``, Arjan El Fassed (29 September 2003)

More Palestinian children taken into custody, DCI-PS (23 September 2003)

Palestinian human rights defender detained for further 6 months without trial, DCI/PS (3 September 2003)

The Israeli Supreme Court approves order denying Palestinian detainee access to legal representation, PCHR (18 August 2003)

Israeli government leaves Palestinian child detainees out of prisoner release, DCI-PS (6 August 2003)

Addameer: Selection of Palestinian detainees to be released solely reflects Israeli criteria, Addameer (5 August 2003).

4,200 Palestinians on Hunger Strike, Kristen Ess and Nada Khair (1 August 2003)

Israeli prison guards use violence against Palestinian female prisoners, PCATI (13 July 2003)

``It is not I who is on trial in Israel``, Marwan Barghouti (3 October 2002)

Israel resumes trial against Barghouti, Arjan El Fassed (6 April 2003)


Secret Prison Facility 1391

Facility 1391: a secret prison (PDF) ICJ report from a hearing in the High Court of Justice in Jerusalem (1 December 2003)

High Court of Justice Ruling on Petition to Close the Secret Detention Facility 1391 (PDF) Observation Mission Avocats San Fontieres (December 2003)

Facility 1391: Israel`s secret prison, Chris McGreal, The Guardian (14 November 2003)

Facility 1391: Israel’s Guantanamo, Jonathan Cook, Le Monde Diplomatique (November 2003)

PCATI to Israeli government: ``Shut down secret detention facility 1391``, PCATI (4 September 2003)

A story from the heart of Israel`s secret prison, Mohammad Daraghmeh (9 July 2003)

High Court Petition on 1391


Torture
Abusive interrogation techniques continue to be practiced in Israel. The Supreme Court there ruled in September 1999 that six frequently-used practices of the Israeli Security Agency (then known as the General Security Service, or GSS) violated existing laws. These included beatings, prolonged sleep deprivation, violent shaking, and prolonged painful positioning. There appears to be agreement among Israeli human rights activists and defense lawyers that these techniques are used less frequently, but have been replaced by techniques that are extremely stressful psychologically, including: greater isolation for longer periods; denial of access to lawyers and family members for extended periods; prolonged interrogation sessions; use of collaborators to threaten detainees; and threats to family members.

The Supreme Court ruling also permits the security agency to claim the “necessity defense” in cases where “exceptional interrogation means” are allegedly needed, as in so-called “ticking bomb” cases. The Israeli daily Ha’aretz reported in July 2002 that the GSS had up to that point employed “exceptional interrogation means” against ninety Palestinians. The readiness of the Attorney General to grant “necessity defense” requests, along with the fact that since 1999 no Israeli Security Agency or GSS officer has faced criminal or disciplinary charges for acts of torture or ill-treatment, appears to have led to an erosion of the restraints initially imposed by the 1999 ruling.

In addition, physical violence—or the threat of it—is often present in the treatment of detainees. Most former detainees interviewed by Human Rights Watch in 2004 described physical abuse at the time of their arrest and transfer to Israeli detention or interrogation centers.

-- from ``Torture Worldwide``, Human Rights Watch (27 April 2005)


Adminstrative detention, risk of ill-treatment or torture, OMCT (31 July 2004)

Israeli link possible in US torture techniques, Ali Abunimah (11 May 2004)

Torture and ill-treatment of child detainees, OMCT (12 December 2003)

Palestinian Political Prisoners, NAD-PLO (July 2003)

Increased reports of torture by Israel in Occupied Territories, IRCT (12 April 2002)

Memorandum to UN Committee Against Torture, Human Rights Watch (May 1998)

Israel: Concluding Observations, UN Committee Against Torture (June 1994)

Torture and Ill-treatment: Israel`s Interrogation of Palestinians from the Occupied Territories, Human Rights Watch (June 1994)


Medical rights

Medical concern for Palestinian detainee held in Ashkelon prison, PCHR (15 October 2003)

Denial of access to medical care in Israeli prisons, OMCT (18 September 2003)


Multimedia

Photostory: Khiam Detention Camp, Arjan El Fassed (30 October 2004)


Diaries

Prisoner stories


Websites

Palestinian Prisoner Society

Sumoud: A Political Prisoner Solidarity Group

Addameer

BY TOPIC: Human Rights Organizations

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24 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 1:03pm PT


You cannot make an analogy between Israeli Zionist policy that condones torture of Palestinians and the torture of American soldiers who were part of the invasion of Vietnam. You know that.


The analogy was made to debunk your claim about Israeli torture leading to the Hamas victory....There is NO analogy, this proving the fallacy of your reasoning..


I ask either you or Fuzair to post the numbers of deaths of Israelis vs. the number of deaths of Palestinians in the last twenty years.


As a % of the jewish population and % of muslim population? If you`re cherry picking data, there`s always a way to spin it..


you have now made it clear that practices that are GLOBALLY recognized as unlawful are now justified towards questionable gains.


globally recognized? India and Pakistan routinely use torture..I`m hoping the US uses torture on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed(or at least something the ACLU considers torture)..

#23 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 12:53pm PT


should be pretty clear to anyone who posesses a soul....


I`m an atheist..I don`t believe in the whole soul thing..

Arjun,

What you and Fuzair have focused on is the superficial effects of torture on a civillian population. You cannot make an analogy between Israeli Zionist policy that condones torture of Palestinians and the torture of American soldiers who were part of the invasion of Vietnam. You know that.

What you and Fuzair are also avoiding is the nullifying anc chilling effect the condoned usage of torture has in a conflict between two entities of vastly inequal power. I ask either you or Fuzair to post the numbers of deaths of Israelis vs. the number of deaths of Palestinians in the last twenty years. In addition, compare the number of tortures of Israelis by Palestinians and visa versa. There is simply no comparison. You are asking a civillian population not only to submit to colonialist policies that mandate their third class citizenship in their own countries, but in addition, you have now made it clear that practices that are GLOBALLY recognized as unlawful are now justified towards questionable gains.

Arjun, can you explain what kind of effect the rationalization of what is considered universally UNLAWFUL practice has on any community?

arjun,

geez dude...i have a headache and don`t feel like spoonfeeding you evidence that should be pretty clear to anyone who posesses a soul....

#21 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 12:39pm PT


come on...you can do better than that....


Right...the associate-prof doesn`t have to present any argument..or present evidence to the contrary..she can just wave her hand and saying ``you can do better than that`` wins her the debate..

Are you sure you don`t teach 1st grade where you can just win a debate with a student because you`re the teacher..

arjun,

come on...you can do better than that....

Samina:post-hoc ergo propter hoc?

Just because Hamas came into power after Israel tortured the palis, it doesn`t mean there is a cause and effect relationship...
I`m sure Israel tortured more than a few fatah members too..why didn`t fatah win?
hamas came into power because fatah was corrupt..period..

arjun,

is it ridiculous? or are you mad that it`s fairly accurate?

#11 by Saminasha on February 10, 2006 8:09am PT


If torture ``works`` how do you explain Hamas`s ascendancy to leadership?


That`s beyond ridiculous and betrays a shallow understanding of how things work in the real world...

It`s like saying torture works because American POWs were tortured and America lost in Vietnam..

I find it unbelievable that this book has been given a PEN award

An excerpt from the review of Sam Harris` book written by David Niose and published in May-June 2005 issue of ``Humanist``.

``As further proof of Harris` lack of ACLU credentials, he avidly argues in favor of torture. He backs the use of torture, he says, if the likelihood of getting useful information ``is even one chance in a million.`` It isn`t just Harris` support of torture that is unsettling but the ease with which he seems to approve of the tactic. ``Why spare the rod with the suspected terrorists?`` he offhandedly ponders. ``If we are unwilling to torture, we should be unwilling to wage modern war,`` he declares, without explaining why.

Harris tries to justify his support of torture by claiming that it`s no worse than the already accepted notion of collateral damage (the unintended killing of innocents in warfare, especially in bombings). Analytically, this argument is full of holes that Harris decides not to address. Even leaving aside the fact that torture and collateral damage bear no relation to one another except that they both involve violence toward human beings, Harris` argument breaks down at the elementary two-wrongs-don`t-make-a-right stage.

If one ever needed proof that not all nontheists are Humanists, Harris has provided us with sufficient evidence. In eagerly supporting torture, he never considers the harm done not just to the victim of torture but to the culture that propagates such practices. What kind of a free, democratic society could so casually allow torture? Perhaps it is an overstatement to claim that ``everything changed`` after 9/11, because hopefully our definition of basic decency hasn`t. Any public psyche that has room for torture as an acceptable practice would seem to be about one step away from 1933 Germany. What kind of men and women would be recruited to do the torturing? Are these folks tomorrow`s political leaders? Harris obviously isn`t troubled by such questions.``

Re: # 14
Saminasha,

Here is a quote from page 198 of the paperback edition of ``The End of Faith``

``I belive that I have successfully argued for the use of torture in any circumstance in which we would be willing to cause collateral damage.`` He goes on to say that it still may sound unacceptable to many but the reasons for not accepting torture, even after he has supposedly made a conclusive case, are neurological (page 199)

Also, here is a link to his artcle ``In Defense of Torture``

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html