Mohammad Who?

#235 by hamidm2

God endorses strange things. It`s the same God as everyone else`s remember?

Re: # 234

zeemax,

``It was all due to political expediency of the particular time. Massacre of Banu Quraiza made the Hudabya treaty possible since Quraish knew what the Muslims were capable of, and a truce with Quraish was vital for Muslims to consolidate after three devastating wars with them. It was politics mixed with terror.``

........... are you suggesting that the prophet was a political opportunist and a terrorist !!!!?? .......... astaghfirullah !!........ and what about god ?....... are you suggesting that god endorsed this horrible behavior and even sent down koranic verses to support these trecherous acts ? ............. you know, that is a lot worse than what the poor danish cartoonists could ever come up with ! ......... make sure you steer clear of people chewing on sticks and with that tell-tale mark on their forehead !

#224 by hamidm2

Well I would urge you to pick up that dog-eared copy of Koran from in between Ibn Warraq and Irshad Manji, and read again with the following in mind:

Koran descended over 22 years, surah by surah, and not all at once. What `triggered` the revelations were specific events spread over all those years. To understand the surah one has to know the events behind it. If one takes the literal surahs without taking the chronology into account, then the contradictions are many and everyone uses the ones best suited to their purpose. As it is, Koran is not in chronological order so the task becomes difficult. But, the irrefutable recorded history of that time exists enabling rational analysis to a large degree.

If we stick to the literal word, the position taken of Islam being a peaceful religion becomes indefensible. Whatever we say, noone can deny the conduct of Islamic forces throughout centuries, nor can one deny the images of Muslims slitting throats on video with cries of `Allah-o-Akbar`. In that case, the clash of civilizations becomes imminent and we might as well accelerate it to get it over and done with, as I pointed out in my earlier post but noone caught the irony in that statement. The west is sick of Muslims and Muslims are sick of the west.

However, Koran itself adjusts its stance with time. It`s about survival and growth. If Muslims had been sufficiently strong at the time of Hudaibya, there would have been no truce, and that too on unequal terms. They wouldn`t have gone back without even performing Haj. When Muslims did become strong, it was different. After all, how does one explain the massacre of the entire male adult population of Banu Quraiza for alleged collaberation with Quraish during Khandaq, while Quraish itself (i.e. with whom Banu Quraiza were accused of collaberating `with`) was granted general amnesty after Fatah Mecca, including sworn enemies like Khalid bin Waleed and Abu Sufian`s clan with Hinda who had chewed Muhammad (S) uncle Hamza`s liver during Uhad? It was all due to political expediency of the particular time. Massacre of Banu Quraiza made the Hudabya treaty possible since Quraish knew what the Muslims were capable of, and a truce with Quraish was vital for Muslims to consolidate after three devastating wars with them. It was politics mixed with terror. This is just one example. There are many. Khalid Bin Waleed`s subsequent blackmailing of Abu Bakr is an interesting read. The treachery of the rest of the pardoned Quraish such as Asha`s Bin Qais is history who betrayed Ali in Siffin and his daughter poisoned Hassan.

So, if Islam is to survive `in peace`, it will have to now reinterpret the surahs according to the surrounding events and the lessons contained therein as a guide to the future, and not as anything absolute in the written word for all times till eternity. The only absolute concept for all times in Islam is `Tauheed`. Nothing else.

The other option is of-course to pick up the sword, which is ok too.

Regards

My landlord gets shot by VP Dick Cheney

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_hunting_accident

Re: # 228

tahmed,

..... i left off the last three words: ``even though it stinks`` ....... i didn`t want to upset your nice warm feeling ! :)

#205 by masadi

“My comments on HP`s article, they are relevant here as well:
“The article is good in providing tabulations of events and a timeline but could have been improved upon on the reasoning part. The response of Christians to derogatory images of Jesus in Europe or America cannot be compared to the Islamic response to the cartoons because each has had a different history of relationship with the West”

When I wrote the article, the issue was still a developing story so it was short on reason as there were many facts that needed checking up. The other issue was the length of the article. I wanted to bring the issue up for discussion and then make the other points. If you read my posts on that thread you will see that I was trying to guide the issue to a certain perspective.

I agree with you that this issue should not be taken in isolation and some comparisons were not completely accurate but they were to bring the point home that the issue has more depth to it then just a simple press freedom facade. Later on, it has been proven beyond any doubt that the whole thing was inspired and when it failed to catch public attention the first time around, another shot was taken at it to finally bring it to the street level.

Generally, it is not mine or Hamidm’s war. It is a war between the right-wings of the both sides. So when you take a stand, you will always tend to be more confrontational than I could ever be. People like me and Hamid are caught in the middle of the salvo but I think in the end people like Hamid and I will end up cleaning the whole mess up. As has always been the case :)

The US is framing the issues in this war and the Islamic rightwing is responding to it but there is no doubt in my mind that there are some in the Islamic rightwing that are more puppets of the Saudi regime than any thing ideological.

Saudi Arab undeniably has more influence in the ME than anyone other country and the pattern that had emerged out of this mayhem clearly showed that the groups inspired by Saudi Arab were the one who were causing the destruction.

The Saudi and Iran rivalry in the ME is forcing the Saudis to create or help create a situation where Iran is isolated for a future action. We saw them doing that before the Iraq war and now it is quiet obvious which side they stand on.

I heard from some people that when the Saudi King visited Pakistan; he was upset with the Pak government for holding the Islamic parties back on this issue. After his visit, the Pak admin had to back down and now we see the right wing parties in Pakistan are also making noises.

It is hard to tread or keep your head up in the murky waters during the propaganda blitz from both sides but like you, I also don’t take this as an isolated issue. There is a background to it and my first conclusion still stands that the initial effort was to neutralize the public opinion in Europe and allow both French and Germans to step forward when the conflict with Iran heats up.

Re#190 by Ramanujan on February 12, 2006 4:00pm PT

{Your head stinks. } Obviously it is your nose stuck up somebody`s @ss that you are smelling. Is that how you got into IIT? But, you had acknowledge that your brains are between your legs.

BTW, did you get your early morning bowel movement that your spiritual leader Gandhi decreed? Did you drink your own urine? If you need some more I am sure some Pakistani would be glad to furnish you freshly produced urine.

Indians are really strange creatures, hard for humans to understand.

teshah

apne garaiN o iss maray dasna aaN

right click the object you intend to post

from the menu choose Properties

From the dialogue box that opens up, select and copy URL

then use the following procedure and code:

http://www.ibdguy.com/posting.shtml

insert that copied URL withing commas in the code.

Shah ji shreef bandiaN wala kam kario, kamay aaN tarka na choRio. agay hi dhuN paleet hay, jay utooN khotay aaN mootra te kam khrab ho waisi.

hamidm: I didnt read the last part - `` there is no logic to it and, quite honestly, there is nothing wrong with it as long as you don`t go berserk and start killing dhimmis, shias, ahmedis, women, pigs, and other assorted infidels and creatures cursed by this or that prophet ............. ``

That is fine. As long as you stick to this, you dont need to do background reading. So, let me see if I can pick on General Stonewall Masadi instead. :-)

Masadi: you write ``And that is why they find themselves in the dispicable condition they are in, being used and abused by damn fools all over the place and many of these damn fools, leeches, like the US elite, are there all over the place waiting to take advantage of all situations in order to harm them``

Who is this ``US elite`` that you are calling leeches?? They ``US elite`` that gave you the internet?? Or the ``US elite`` that kicked japanese behinds in WWII so you wouldnt be doing slave labor for the Greater Glory of the Japanese emperor?? Or perhaps it is the ``US elite`` that has formed a country that has three thousand visa applications from Pakistan every day and which every country in the world aspires to be like???

Or maybe you are having too much difficulty getting the concept of freedom and human dignity, and would rather bow to a muslim khalifa every morning???

Now I have to log off but will return later during the night, and for the sake of your reputation here, I hope you would have produced one contradiction that is well thought out, otherwise your ``glaring contradictions`` in the Quran were just ``glaring lies`` on your part.

#224, it is very simple to copy paste or give links to crusader sites. Why don`t you, who claimed that there were glaring contradictions in the Quran, pick ONE, the best one you think exists on that site, and present it here in your understanding so that I can ruin it for you and the others to see, right here. All of what is presented on that answering Islam site or the faithfreedom site is total BS, where it concerns the Quran. So prove yourself to be honest when you claimed that there were glaring contradictions in the Quran, present ONE, i dont ask for much, JUST ONE, and let me deal with it over here. Otherwise, let me suggest it as politely as I can, ``shut up``. Thank you.

hamidm #224 Why dont you go to Amazon.com and order some popular book on religion - the best seller in the US has been ``The World`s Religions`` by Huston Smith if you want to learn about the essence of Islam as millions of readers in the US of this popular book understand it. Or you can pick up a book by Joe Esposito, or by Karen Armstrong if you want to learn more about muslim history as millions of readers in the US of their popular books understand it. Or indeed virtually any other popular western writer on Islam.

Then come back and tell me what these respected scholars are missing that only you and jay thakeray and pat robertson know.

I too know your heart is in the right place, and am no less fed up of the fools and crazies of the muslim world as you are. But you need to understand that the underlying cause is not that Islam tells them to be fools and crazies - they are fools and crazies to begin with. And will remain fools and crazies, Islam or no Islam.

masadi mian,

....... sigh !....... i am not a scholar of the koran and really don`t have the time to once again go through my dog-eared and underlined copy of the koran which now sadly rests between ibn waraq and irshad manji ............. but since you asked me to point out the contradictions in osman`s edition of a text of dubious authorship to begin with, i went to google and typed in `contradictions in koran`, and i will be darned if i didn`t come up with a zillion hits !........ so here is the first one in the list : http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ (it is rather detailed and you can dig deep to find the exact quotations from the koran and the standard muslim replies to explain the obvious inconsistencies)

........... so, please take your time and answer some of the more serious charges against the book - i promise to read them even though it is rather tedious .............

..........look, people believe in the koran (and other scriptures) simply because they want to - it is like kids believing in santa claus and the tooth fairy ................ there is no logic to it and, quite honestly, there is nothing wrong with it as long as you don`t go berserk and start killing dhimmis, shias, ahmedis, women, pigs, and other assorted infidels and creatures cursed by this or that prophet ............. it is kind of like peeing in your pants on a cold winter day - it gives you a nice warm feeling ..................

Then atleast explain this for everyone`s benefit- instead of resorting to namecalling. I apologise for comparing you to someone like Harishhyd.

What of women`s rights, minorities` rights... etc? What about blasphemy?

Quote <<< The Quran thus grants greater freedom and the resulting ability to reason compared to any (bureaucratized) system that exists in the current epoch: ``Those who avoid the greater (Kabair) crimes and shameful deeds...`` (Quran 42:37). The greater crimes are less than a handful and can be extracted from Quran’s description of crimes, those are the only ones we are told to avoid. Here the Quran is not concerned about the smaller details that keep the traditionalist ``Islamic scholars`` busy, even as they ignore the bigger public issues that are causing great problems among humankind. A truly Islamic society would be one in which freedom and reason flourishes and laws are minimal, it would be a truly democratic society, where democracy is practiced in essence and not just by slogan. Hence, the purpose and judgment of life based upon choice ``...to determine which of you is best in deeds.`` (Quran 67:2). M. Asadi>>>> (end quote)

http://www.selvesandothers.org/article11559.html

#220 you state <<< How about a simplistic argument that I place: Islam is a religion that believes in justice, fairplay and equality for all mankind and which beyond certain basic precepts accords the greatest freedom to individual believer ... to live a full life. >>>

That is my argument, it has become yours now,

see http://www.selvesandothers.org/article11559.html