Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

Re: # 13

Saying la eela ha il-lah with belief is the most difficult thing to say for a non believer because it is this one sentence which changes the course of one`s life by 180 degrees. on the other hand, any one can quote some fancy verse from geeta which has no real meaning and implication.

`its appeal and ``scientific brilliance`` is limited to its followers`!
Rubbish. Many non-muslims most of which actually hate islam and therefore too stubborn to accept the truth are also amazed by the quran. Example Dr. Keith moore (and u can find many others, do a simple search on google)

Re: # 520

``Yeh zindagi ke mailay duniya mein kum na hongay ``

try saying that!!!!

try reading that ``mailay`` it reads dirty.

#527 tahmed32 writes <<< masadi: So you are reduced to namecalling? Let any impartial reader of the exchange below be the judge of who is the hypocrite >>>

Yes, let people witness first hand the extent to which you go, using trickery and deception, to support the tyrants that cause misery on earth. You try to cloud issues that have society wide, continent wide, world wide life and death implications for people by Ad Hominem inquiries of whether a particular individual volunteered his time at a soup kitchen or not. You have lost all sense of reason and integrity. By clouding these issues you help perpetuate them and that causes more harm than any benefit private ``volunteering`` will bring.

masadi: So you are reduced to namecalling? Let any impartial reader of the exchange below be the judge of who is the hypocrite.

Last post from me on this board.

#535 tahmed, you can conlcude whatever the hell you want to conclude but know that you conclsion is neither based on facts nor does it follow logically from my post, nor is it based on reality. It is based on your unconditional love for the American elite, that comes out more intense in your words than your love for anything else. You are a damn hypocrite. Let us hear you condemn the atrocities of the US elite, otherwise why don`t you shut up and spare us your hypocritical conclusions. People like you support the oppressors of the weak, and I support the weak and the downtrodden and have done so at every forum even at peril to my person and career. That is more in my opinion than any ``charity``- which I do not refrain from giving as well, as is my Islamic duty.

So: the short answer to my second question (namely, what have you done for the weak and downtrodden) is: nothing .

And dont give me your big talk about my turning negatives to positives and what not.

#522 tahmed writes <<< masadi: So, your long answer to my simple question boils down to: There is no other place on earth you would rather be than in the US.

Next question: If you are such a champion for the downtrodden, what have you done on their behalf here in the US. Have you volunteered your time to do something for the mentally handicapped? or the elderly? or the poor? or death row prisoners? or the victims of death row prisoners??

What have you done on their behalf outside the US?? >>>

What are you? A propagandist for the CIA? How conveniently you have turned my negative answer into a positive. People waste their lives in the US, they are trapped in a bureaucratized maze and their life passes them by without a moment of reflection. That is, in my opinion, the worst curse anyone can live under. If you take economic deprivation the effects of the policies of the US are felt greater abroad than at home but felt at home nonetheless. I would rather not be in the US and I would not wish that curse upon anyone else. I have made that quite clear in my answer that you are trying to spin.

When you ask me what I have done for the down trodden, you are thinking of private solutions to public problems, things that transcend an individual and his or her local environment. Public problems by definition can be fixed only by institutional restructuring and I am helpless, at the present , to bring about any such solutions. Private solutions are no help in fixing social problems, that is why the elite encourage private solution even as they help maintain the status quo. Look at all the private help foundations all their corporations have setup. They deprive the world yet they offer crumbs to the poor through the carnegie trust and the ford foundation etc. Hypocrisy plain and simple.

Next, what I do or do not do has nothing to do with what the facts are. You cannot deal with the arguments so you bring in questions that lead to Ad hominem criticism. You are trying to cloud the facts and thus maintian the status quo which causes GREATER harm than any private help you can give put together. You are trying to keep the public unconscious, I am trying in my limited way to wake it up to the reality of institutional pressure: in that I think I have put it quite a bit of effort and to me that is worth more than any charity that Mother Teresa can give.

dost mittar: afsos to yeh hai kai yai maelay bhi chand din kay mehmaan haiN. :-)

What I mean is, ``culture`` is not a static thing, but one that is changing with increasing rapidity nowadays all across the world. Thus, despite the surface similarities, the ``Panjabi`` culture of today is quite removed from that of a couple of generations ago: back then, when the sun went darkness set in virtually every across the world - and today we have the 24/7 culture all around the world. A couple of generations ago, few people ventured beyond their village during their entire lives, and today nearly every tom, dick and harry has been around the world. So, all that remains of the ``mela`` are surface similarities - the panjabi language, or panjabi music (which has world-wide popularity now among the youth), is like the smile which is all that remains of the cheshire cat whose body has disappeared. And one day that smile too will be gone. And we will have a totally different cat to deal with. And that cat will be speaking english (or at least english as it would have evolved by then). :-)

masadi: So, your long answer to my simple question boils down to: There is no other place on earth you would rather be than in the US.

Next question: If you are such a champion for the downtrodden, what have you done on their behalf here in the US. Have you volunteered your time to do something for the mentally handicapped? or the elderly? or the poor? or death row prisoners? or the victims of death row prisoners??

What have you done on their behalf outside the US?? Ever visit a community of impoverished hindu minority women in bangaldesh, and spend half a day listening to their problems and dreams, and then doing something about it? Ever visit an HIV clinic in Africa and talk to people with death staring out of their eyes, and try to understand what can be done to make life a little easier for me?? Ever go to an orphanage in Pakistan??

Lets have some straight answers please. (and btw, big talk does not qualify as doing something for the downtrodden - the downtrodden and the weak have no use for big talk).

#504, tahmed32 writes <<< So where exactly do you plan to go to free yourself from your misery?? >>>

Firstly, I don`t say what I say because it is a desire to ``free myself`` alone. Everytime a person faces an unpleasant situation, if he or she gets up and leaves, will that problem ever get noticed or fixed?

Second, if you noted what I write, it talks about global interconnectedness, a bureaucratized nation state system where the US plays a greater role in maintaining ghettos around the world. The effects of the policies of the US are felt greater abroad than at home in the US. SO if my purpose was to ``free myself`` alone I`d minimize the damage and stay in the US. But I do not plan to do that. Inshallah, I`ll be writing you all from a different IP address soon enough.

Third, also this myth that people around the globe are waiting to rush to the US is just that, a big myth. Look at the net migration rate tables from around the globe. The US net migration rate, the difference between in-migration (immigration) and out-migration (emigration) per 1000 population was around 3.31 last year. A surplus of 3 people per 1000 population came in compared to those that left this country. Now there are TONS of countries in the world that have a higher rate of net migration compared to the US. Here is a table, knock yourself out (http://www.travelgis.com/Asp/getranks.asp?category=Net+Migration+Rate&unit=per+1000&format=.htm )

Similarly there are TONS of countries where income inequality, and wealth inequality is less than the US. Now, if I wanted to answer your above question based on a rhetorical response that would be VALID, I`d say, I would move to a country where more people are rushing to and where income/wealth inequality is less. That would be a valid and good answer, but to be honest, I will return to the homeland and work from there, God willing.

tahmed32#508:

I do not believe that language is ``just a means of communication``. It is also a means of transmitting one`s culture, heritage or what the French call ``patrimony``. Unlike you, I cannot conceive of a unilingual world. This would not only mean all countries have the same official language but also that every human will be unilingual. In Pakistan even now, almost everyone is bilingual, they know Urdu as well as their mother-tongue, except for the Muhajirs whose mothertongue is Urdu.

We may have a predominant language for international communications. But I am certain that there is not going to be a unilingual world. Of course, we are talking about the Keynesian long run.

Yeh zindagi ke mailay duniya mein kum na hongay
Afsos hum na hongay!

[Try saying that in English :) ]

Dear Manto,

Sorry if bringing up the Prophet`s name hurt your feelings. But you have not objected to me comparing you with MAJ. That suggests that you hope to go down as a man as great as MAJ. Godspeed.

Regards

Dear Majumdar...

Comparisons, analogies and assumptions is what I was objecting to- the latter being most relevant. That is in any event a loaded statement- so either way have it as you may how you may if it pleases you.

Dear Manto,

Sorry if bringing up the Prophet`s name hurt your feelings. But since you have not raised any objections to your name being brought up as a comparison I suspect that you hope to go down eventually as great a leader as MAJ. Godspeed.

Regards

by ``this statement`` I refer to the 1940 statement and its distorted hearsay versions.

Dear Majumdar...

Unfair comment.

Ofcourse the man was human.. I think his final strategy was flawed even if his tactics were flawless and he had his blindspots- I think announcing the Direct Action Day which led to violence in Calcutta regardless of who did what tarnished his whole struggle and his name as a constitutional barrister who had never resorted to such calls. It was because of the basic inherent flaw in his demand, so carefuly nuanced and crafted to suit a very particular demand- Congress ran away with the partition of Bengal and Punjab ... the problem however is of relativity and comparison- an honest investigation will always conclude that Jinnah carried himself honestly and with integrity in that final period.

This statement would hardly qualify as a point of dispute. If it was true- I would accept it. Like I pointed out, I used to quote it when I considered it true... and many Jinnah admirers do to prove that Jinnah`s 11th August speech and not other Muslim League leaders` philosophy should be followed in Pakistan. However, research proves that it was this statement ... that got distorted and was quoted differently by different people. This is why hearsay is not admissible in court.

I am not sure why you bring up the Holy Prophet in the middle.