Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

hamidm


We have no business running around in fart restrictors (pantaloons) either but whatchu gonna do.


raw-dust

Dude, Shahabnama is the classic in urdu literature, what are you talking about. The best part of the book is where author describes the daily early morning bowl movements of Maharaja of Kashmir and the rituals that he followed after that. The author describes that Maharaja would got to the raliway tracks daily to negotiate with nature. And after he`d be done with his business he would squat across a six yard piece of pure silk cloth which was softly twisted into like a rope so that it could slide through Maharaja`s grand canyon. Two of the royal servants would slide that rope in a similar fashion as two lumberjacks reciprocate their saw across a big piece of lumbar and the third servant would pour water during that exercise. After Maharaja would be thoroughly cleansed, he would tip that piece of silk to one of the royal servants. That is how the children of those royal servants were put through convent schools and Aitchison colleges where they didn`t learn a word of their native language. Otherwise Shahabnama would have been the Gospel for people like hamidm.

hamidm: you say you are not misquoting or even quoting me. However:

in post #111 this is what you had written: ````this virulent strain of islam is more widespread than tahmed and other muhammadan apologists would have us believe ``

I had asked you to cut and paste anything I wrote to substantiate the above, or else acknowledge that you misrepresented my views. and you took the easy way out and ignored that request. And now you claim you never misquoted me.

As for me saying i am innocent and naive - that is no different than masadi calling me a hypocrite: both you and masadi, instead of responding in any reasonable manner to what I wrote, have taken the easy way out of ignoring what I write, and to instead take the easy way out of releasing hot air and advising me of my attributes. plus ca change, plus c`est la meme chose.

zeemax,

Sorry for the silence, I wan`t ignoring the comments... I was away. (... I`d gone off to South Wales as the children had their mid-term break... the caverns there are great... though nowhere near as huge as the Great Mammoth Cave in KY...)

I`m quite surprised that this silly article is still engendering so much debate... you, hamidm2 and others are just pissing in the wind and being finely sprayed in the face. The faithful are on a jihad path and the more you try and bring in such satanic notions as logic, history, culture and even plain decency into your arguments, the more you are disrupting their hornets` nest. Just take a hint from the Amazing Quran and listen to words of wisdom, let it be... let it be Oh, sorry that`s a hint from Paul McCartney, ... but it`s all the same. John and Paul were better know than Jesus after all.

As for being a Muslim (and not atheist) is concerned, (raw dust brought it up) all I have to say is that if we can have pantheist Jews, animist Christians and atheist Hindus what`s wrong with being a Muslim and yet not believing in al-Lah as being the ghost author of Mo`s masterpiece. Or for that matter what`s wrong with being a Muslim and doubting the omnipotence of the desert god al-Lah?? We still chop off our sons` penis-tips, hate pork, carry on with the cleaning ladies and regularly insert inshallah, maa-shallah, alhumd-ulillah, subhaan-allah and astaghfir-ullah in our daily conversation. Isn`t that enough to be an authentic Muslim?

I remember back in the early 1990s a deligation of ayatullahs visted the newly liberated Muslim country Azarbijan whose president greeted them with a toast of vodka. I`d like to say to you what the Azari president said to the visiting Iranian delegation. With gusto he declared, ``gentlemen, let`s drink to the glory of Islam``...

And this brings me to the next point. Don`t worry about what the primitives tell you. Your reading of the Quran, as confirmed by pir hamidm, is cent per cent correct. It was the usurper Omar who himself being a former alcoholic, like our dearly beloved George W., became a real zealot and banned it. There is no worst zealot than a convert.

On a more personal note, are you still sticking to the imported stuff or have you finally stooped to imbibing that crappy Murree brew? When I come visit in April, I`ll be sure to stop by the Duty Free shop at Heathrow to pick up some.

Your brother in Islam (and damn proud of it)

cheers

...SR

hamidm:

i, the great grandson of gopinath masanamuthu, have no business running around with a name like hamid and behaving like a desert abdul - it just ain`t right ...

ROFL.. I feel honored that you chose to be the great grandson of gopinath masanamuthu..
I think ``gopinath masanamuthu`` would feel equally proud about you..

Actually I am thankful to the ``caste supremacist Brahmin`` harimau for coining ``masanamuthu`` as the generic low caste name..

Arabs I think are the smartest group of people on earth.. One arab dude fooled a few tribals of 7h century and there are 1 billion followers now..

:-))

Re: #362

Nope, it`s much better to stick to the purer practices like wearing a bedsheet and throwing pebbles at a stone pillar.

GT:
i am not sure if this koranic statement can be taken conclusively to mean that this is the book of god but it comes pretty close.

002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

hamidm:
since you seem to be in the mood to introspect, do you agree that the uncle-generation of pakistan kept a supremacist and racist view towards predominantly non-punjabi non-pakistani brethren of subcontinent? throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s and the 90s? up untill 9/11. and still you just have to scratch just a little to see the depravity of their views in full glory.

i grew up in partly zia`s martial law and the 90s and have some recollections of the feel and views of that time. i was also fed lies after lies in my school textbooks mixed with blatantly racist propaganda against indians. in that time i also happened to come across a cheap thriller Shahabnama and that book is though largely fabricated does give interesting insight into the minds of uppity racist pakistani bureacrats of that time.

i think pakistani uncle brigade is hardwired to think racially - not necessarily religously though cos they are rich - and they tend to go into infantile rage once reality starts betraying them. this is also kind of analogous to the state of pakistan.

The following question is directed to people who have studied the Koran:

Does the Koran state how to falsify the claim ``The Koran is a work of God``?

I ask because the following cannot be used to falsify the claim.

``If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-).`` Koran 4:82

This is because even if one were to find several contradictions (not just the word), the above statement takes no position on whether or not the Koran is a work of God.

Of course, the above used with certain other statements (like for example ``God`s statements are always correct`` etc.) can be used to falsify the claim that the Koran is a work of God. Do such statements exist? If so then where?

Second, apart from the claim quoted above, does the Koran explicitly state that the Koran is a work of God? If so then where?

Hamidm

“on this arab imperialism thing............... if you think about it, it was the worst kind of imperialism inflicted on mankind and it continues to haunt us in a horrible way”

There were no Arab rulers in India ever. Even the Persians and turks that brought Islam to India were anti Arab. Were Christians any better even Hindus had problems with Bhuddist. It is all about control and power. It is the same game the US is playing. If the Arabs were exporting their culture and customs in the 10th century, the Americans are doing the same thing in the 20th or the 21st century. You cannot maintain control over a country until you control them culturally too.

You are clutching on strawman. Imperialism is whole lot different than religious stupidity. In Pakistan most of the religious actions are political actions. How changing names to faiselabad from Lyllepur relates to imperialism? It means moving away from the colonial past or denying the imperial legacy.

Now they could have named it something else but naming after the Saudi King was purely political. You can`t get away from it in a third world country.

Now dressing in silly arab dresses is truely objectionable when it is proven that you don`t need an underwear to go with that.

Pakistanis have mixed up religion with nationalism but signs of that are well documented in India too.

Are you suggesting that you are the only one who realizes that we are taken for a ride? Even when you take over as the PM of Pakistan there will be some people who would tell you that you are taken them for a ride. This is the nature of the power game and politics is all about power games.


``but that doesn`t mean we have make fools out of ourselves by bowing to mecca five times a day (i belong to the twice a year school of islam)``

How do you find time even two days a year to listen to some stupid stupid mullah in controlled environment? In fact, you are contributing to the mullah storyline. I hope you stay away from it.

I don’t bow to anyone or anything but find bowing before rats and snakes abhorrent.


Enjoy rat worshipping Indian style.


http://www.bway.net/~bastable/rats.html


``In Deshnoke, India, there`s a temple devoted to the worship of the rat. It seems that these rats will be born in the next life as sadhus, or Hindu holy men. So hundreds of thousands of them teem together--and stink together--throughout the temple. And, of course, since it`s holy, all visitors must remove their shoes to enter.
The rats are fed milk and meal, which pilgrims drink and eat afterward. It`s considered a blessing to eat food drenched with rat saliva. It`s also considered lucky to spot a white rat here--and I did.
The guy with me is actually one of the priests. Not what you`d expect from a rodent cleric, is it?``


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/06/0628_040628_tvrats.html



“The floors are a living tangle of undulating fur. Small, brown blurs scurry across marble floors. Thousands of rats dine with people and scamper over their feet.

It may sound like a nightmare from the New York City subway to some, but in India`s small northwestern city of Deshnoke, this is a place of worship: Rajastan`s famous Karni Mata Temple.”


Horrible practices

#289 by hamidm2

[Re: # 282

rama,
[....... i am disappointed to hear that the kamasutra is not a religious text because i was seriously considering reverting to the religion of my forefathers - it sounded like so much fun ...........

........but seriously i have never understood hindooism - it seems to a rather laissez faire affair.....]



Many years ago I was browsing through books at a book store, and I came across this book published as part of the LIFE World Library. It was first published in 1961. The name of the book, not surprisingly, was ``INDIA``, and was probably part of a series of books on various countries of the world. The author of this book is Joe David Brown, apparently one of the then-correspondents for the New Delhi Bureau of TIME and LIFE magazines.

I was flipping through the pages of the book, and the following paragraph caught my eye (Page 35), so I bought the book. I still have it with me.

``...The followers of Shiva and Vishnu form the largest of the Hindu sects. As a counter to possible accusations of idolatry and polytheism the following invocation is offered by priests in the temples which are dedicated to them and to the numberless other gods who represent the varying attributes of the Absolute in Hindu theology:


``O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to
my human limitations:
Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
Thou art without form, but I worship you in
these forms;
Thou needst no praise, yet I offer you
these prayers and salutations.
Lord, forgive three sins that are due to
my human limitations.``


What struck me about this author was that he was able to describe India and the whole concept of Hinduism from the perspective of the curious but baffled westerner. For example, he says in chapter 2 (A preoccupation with the Spirit), page 30:

``Hearing Hinduism fiercely condemned - often by Hindus themselves - as a superstitious and backward escapism, and hearing it ardently championed by both eastern and western intellectuals, Westerners may understandably have less trouble in making up their minds about Hinduism than in simply understanding it. One American scholar has asserted flatly that ``Hinduism is the most confused, confusing and distinctive of the world`s religions``. It has no founder, no central authority or organization, no fixed creed.

If Hinduism seems less a single religion than a sort of theological grab bag of beliefs and practices from which the individual can select whatever suits him, the impression is in large measure correct. Often considered mystically impractical, Hinduism is supremely realistic in its recognition that people are different - not only individually but at different stages of their lives - and that they therefore need different ways of approaching God. In the milleniums of its existence, Hinduism has devised ways for all manner of men, at all ages and all levels. It offers that which its followers believe is best suited to a man`s station in life. The illiterate peasant, finding most of the color and drama of his life in ceremonies, processions and festivals celebrating his favorite religious myths, may seem - or actually may be - idolatrous of his household and village gods. The intellectual Hindu, on the other hand, is a firm believer in monotheism. To him, Hinduism`s hundreds of dissimilar god-images are but symbols of the countless aspects and infinite power of the single God or Supreme Reality, which - or whom - he calls Brahman or Brahma. He is confident that in God`s good time, in this life or in some future incarnation, every human being will eventually put away childish things and know the boundless and eternal joy of union with Truth. A conviction of man`s ultimate nature and destiny provides the basic unity within Hinduism`s bewildering diversity.``


Hinduism is really baffling to people who consider religion as a sort of country club membership to which you can ``BELONG``. The reason Hinduism did not have a name for itself is because early thinkers in our subcontinent approached spirituality as a largely philosophical and metaphysical issue - they were trying to resolve the eternal questions that have bedeviled mankind - questions about the existence of ourselves, of the universe, of birth, death and the whole confusing rigamarole. An example of this search for answers can be seen in the ``Hymn of Creation`` in the Rig-Veda:


``Then there was neither being nor
non-being:
There was no air, nor firmament
beyond it.
Was there a stirring? Where? Beneath
what cover?
Was there a great abyss of unplumbed
water?

There was no death nor anything
immortal;
Nor any sign didving day from night.
That One Thing, in the stillness, breathed
quiescent;
No second thing existed whatsoever.
Darkness was hidden in a deeper
darkness;
This All was as a sea without
dimensions;
The void still held unformed what was
potential,
Until the power of Warmth produced
the Sole One...


While some would like to trash this as complete garbage and nonsense, the important thing to note here is that there has been, from the earliest days in our subcontinent, a tradition of quiet introspection on the nature of the universe, as opposed to getting a ``revelation``, and forcing all manner of rules and regulations regarding membership down other people`s throats, in order to propel them towards some kind of ``heaven``. Religion, in the traditional ``Hindu`` sense has meant quite a different thing as compared to the other religions. This is why it is not ``organized``, and this is why there has never been any provision for ``conversion`` - although nowadays people have come up with all kinds of ingenious ways to ``convert`` people to Hinduism. Spirituality has been always seen by the ``Hindu`` intellectual as a branch of knowledge, to be debated and thought about - the membership concept has been considered nonsensical. There have been great debates between different ``Hindu`` thinkers over the years about the nature of the ``self`` or Atman in relation to the ``Absolute`` or Brahman, and there have been many schools of though, including Dvaita (duality), Advaita (non-duality) and VishishthaDvaita.


The following is a quote from the beginning of Chapter 2 of the same book:

``When Alexander the Great, having conquered most of mankind, was resting with his armies on the Indus Plain in the pleasant spring of 326 B.C., he turned his attention one day to a group of Indian Holy men sitting naked in the sun, oblivious to the world around them. Curious, the great conqueror dispatched Onesicritus, one of his brightest young officers, to find out what manner of men they were and what wisdom they had to impart. The holy men told Onesicritus that to try to pass on their knowledge to his master through interpreters would be like trying to make water flow clear through many layers of mud. If the mighty Alexander wished to acquire their wisdom, they continued, let him begin by stripping off his fine robes and coming to sit humbly with them in the Sun.``

Spiritual or philosophical wisdom in India was not seen by the ``Hindu`` philosophers as a set of codified dogmas, but rather as insight and self-realization to be achieved through intellectual rigor and introspection. Nobody ``BELONGS`` to ``Hinduism`` in any sense other than the cultural sense. But the philosophy is out there for anybody to appreciate and debate.


In this sense, Hinduism is in no need of defense - it is only a group of philosophies.


This is not to say that various individuals over the years have not put their personal spin on it to satisfy their personal goals and motivations. There have been a host of rituals, superstitions and codified laws that have been added over the years, to satisfy the baser human tendencies for tribalism. These rituals have blended with local pre-historic tribal traditions and rituals to produce different kinds of grotesque mixes in many different parts of the country. But through all this mud and filth , what still shines through is the systems of thought that have evolved over the years that try to answer our eternal and ultimate questions: What is the meaning of existence, and why this Universe.

``Hindu`` philosophers have always known that saying a few magic words to ``convert`` and then lining up into different queues, token in hand, at the different stairways to heaven is a throwback to pre-historic tribal customs that had their own initiation ceremonies. We come alone, and will go alone. We stand naked before the vast wonder that is this Universe, and we have only our intellect to guide us in this journey. We must find our own way, and we are free to inspect or debate any philosophy that thinkers have evolved over the years.

Hey Masasi , your quran is bs...

..truth is , There is only one God called Dhoni and Yuvraj is the Prophet

Re: # 358

hp,

........ on this arab imperialism thing............... if you think about it, it was the worst kind of imperialism inflicted on mankind and it continues to haunt us in a horrible way .......... it made us reject the culture, religion and language of our forefathers and burdened us with this caricature of an identity that makes us look and act like fools ........ i, the great grandson of gopinath masanamuthu, have no business running around with a name like hamid and behaving like a desert abdul - it just ain`t right ............. why do we name our cities faisalabad and our main boulevards shahrah-i-faisal and our stadiums gaddafi and our ports qasim ?.......... why do little kids dress up in silly arab robes and take take arabic clases ........... why do our political leaders prostrate themselves before the saudi king and other bedouin chieftains ?............ of course we want their money and dubai is the sex capital of the world, but that doesn`t mean we have make fools out of ourselves by bowing to mecca five times a day (i belong to the twice a year school of islam) ............ and the sad part is that we don`t even realize that we have been taken for a ride ..........we could have been praying to an elephant nosed god and having sex with a six armed woman instead of abstaining from sex and subsisting on dates for a month .............. on second thought, forget it - i am sure grandpa gopinath will forgive us even as he burns in hell .........

#357

A typical Indian idiot!
Quotes from the dictionary and then comes back with stupid explanation.

imperial government, authority, or system
he policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence

How does that relate to praying five times or picnic in Mecca?

“you accept the great prophet Muhammad is a paedophile”

I did not accept any such thing. Lying like a rug.

Prostrating before rats and snakes is obviously priceless!

#356:

Aren’t you implying that after the Elephant God was smashed every thing became honky dory in your state somewhere in India? No caste discrimination and every one behaving properly.


Partly Right.. I said Hindus started to behave properly..



Do you even know what imperialism is or would continue to write stupid things to make a non existing point.


Main Entry: im·pe·ri·al·ism
Pronunciation: im-`pir-E-&-``li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : imperial government, authority, or system
2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence


Don`t you guys prostrate 5 times everyday looking int he direction of Arabia.. ?. Also treat arabic as a divine language with special preference... carry out the annual picnic trip to Arabia helping the Arabian economy.. See if that matches with the above definition..

Atleast you accept the great prophet Muhammad is a paedophile.. Take it easy..
:-))

#355
Why keep putting foot in your mouth?

“and blasphemed all kinds of Hindu gods.. Then the Hindus started to behave properly, no one publicly supports caste discrimination etc.. etc..”

Aren’t you implying that after the Elephant God was smashed every thing became honky dory in your state somewhere in India? No caste discrimination and every one behaving properly.


#355
“and try to get folks out of this arab imperialist cult..”

Do you even know what imperialism is or would continue to write stupid things to make a non existing point.

What the heck is an imperialist cult?

Imperialist cult…is this right out your school books?
Or you meant that rats and snake worshipping beats imperialism.

HP:

LOL..

This is what I said..

Then the Hindus started to behave properly, no one publicly supports caste discrimination etc.. etc..

Nowhere I said Vinayaka was not worshipped anymore.. I quoted that as an example of how to tame a religion.. How does that constitute a lie?..

Well if you are offended that I called Muhammad as a paedophile, I can`t do anything about it.. It is the fact.. So cool down.. and try to get folks out of this arab imperialist cult..