Is the Koran Truly Amazing?

G M Syed`s deposition in court:

The Case of Sindh

``After the creation of Pakistan, the Raja Sahib of Mahmoodabad requested Mr. Jinnah that something should be done to reorganize the Muslim league, and the Muslim Leaguers should be properly recognized and looked after This annoyed Mr., Jinnah and he said angrily: ``Which Muslim League? Pakistan has been created by me and this typewriter of mine.````

#446 by Mantolives

[The ``statement`` that Indians love to quote ... is actually Jinnah`s statement in 1941 where he described how Muslim League was so ill-organised in 1935 that often he and his type writer were the only organisation that the party had. He was actually paying tribute to the new organisation, offices and cadres in post 1938...]

Dear Yasser, the good thing about the Internet is that it doesn`t allow people to lie and get away with it. I knew you would come up with lies and spin to extricate yourself out of the hole you dug yourselves in, but the odds are too stacked against you. As for me making an exit from the other board, what more did you expect when all you have is excuses (Congress made him do that) and spin (ML won ``Muslim`` votes, as if that mattered), and more absurdity (the Congress should have agreed to the CMP)? It is another matter that you can`t see the stupidity of having to defend an exclusivist agenda which is what Jinnah mian was doing.

In any case, I wouldn`t want to see you ruin this board as well, so you can declare victory here as well and walk away, I have no issues with that. But here`s some of the evidence about the typewriter comment. As you can see (or maybe you can`t), this was made well after the Partition (note the tense here) and not way back in 1941 as you tried to spin it.

Ayaz Amir in Dawn (30th June 2000):

The evil of our circumstances

``When Jinnah said he and his typewriter had created Pakistan, could a more devastating indictment have been offered of the rest of the Muslim League leadership?``

Rafiq Zakaria in Jinnah: The Man Who Divided India

Jinnah: The Man Who Divided India

``He once remarked that he got Pakistan by using just the services of his secretary and typewriter.``

447

Yawn.

Re: #445

Harish,

Jinnah is known internationally for what he was - an instigator of violence of immense proportions who did it solely for achieving his personal goals. If his views were correct, Indian Muslims would be under severe oppression at the hands of Hindus. As it stands, Indian Muslims are doing just fine in a secular society. The Hindus-made-me-do-it kind of logic employed by Jinnah apologists is used by serial killers in court everyday - it`s always ignored by the judge.

Don`t waste your time on Jinnah. His reputation around the world is not very good except in countries that want ``friendly`` strategic (wink, wink) relations with Pakistan.

Dear Harish

This just shows your usual abundant ignorance in full measure, which is why you made a quick escape from the other board...

The ``statement`` that Indians love to quote ... is actually Jinnah`s statement in 1941 where he described how Muslim League was so ill-organised in 1935 that often he and his type writer were the only organisation that the party had. He was actually paying tribute to the new organisation, offices and cadres in post 1938...

There is no mention of Pakistan in the statement.

#444 by Mantolives

[Or his claim that it was he alone who was responsible for bringing about the change in name from the Republic of Pakistan to Islamic Republic of Pakistan- which after all was a popular demand?]

If a man could claim that he alone with the help of his typewriter won Pakistan for Muslims, what`s wrong with this man claiming that he alone changed Pakistan`s name?

Dear HP...

Thanks for your post...

``If you have not read the book, I recommend you read it without worrying abt Shahab’s personal shenanigans. It is an informative book and you get a good picture of pre-partition India and a civil servant’s mindset after the independence.``

I read it and I don`t like the mindset. How can you ignore Shahab`s shenanigans when they are on every single page of the book? How am I supposed to take the guy`s opinion of say Ghulam Muhammad seriously? Or ignore that the same guy was delusional (reference 90) or other ``spiritual`` bakwas the guy puts in there? Or his claim that it was he alone who was responsible for bringing about the change in name from the Republic of Pakistan to Islamic Republic of Pakistan- which after all was a popular demand? Or his personal attacks on several president`s wives?

He reminds me of Dr Shahid Masood of the pre-Zia-ist era.

Sadna..

Calling me a pathological liar because I always expose that your sources is a novel approach.

The world suffers because of people like you who claim a monopoly over the truth- whether religious, political, ideological or whatever.

Tahmed...

Qudratullah Shahab represents to my mind all that was wrong with Muslim society, the Salariat class and the Muslim League cadre- though Shahab wasn`t officially associated with the Muslim League - their confusion and lack of clarity has caused Pakistan a lot of harm. It also shows the basic lack of coherence amongst the Muslim salariat that was disoriented and confused. The problem with Aligarh and Islamic Modernism was its lack of clarity... the refusal to make a clear choice between Darwin and Dogma... the refusal to separate completely science from theology... the desire to justify enlightenment in religious terms and Islam... this is the essential difference between Zionism and the Indo-Muslim identity...

Zionism- based on Jewish religious identity, the star of David and the Lamp- was SELF PROFESSED atheist movement. The Aligarh wallahs represented a sort of Islamic Zionism - more regional- but they were unwilling to make a complete break with dogma like the Zionists. And that confusion ... the teetering between Muslim National Identity and a Theological justification for it... they needed leadership that was Non-Aligarh and essentially from a different stock than the nawabs, taluqdars etc ... after all Jinnah never went to Aligarh, was never in the ICS, was a Gujurati Merchant class by origin... he learnt his politics at the feet of Naoroji Dadabhoy, Gokhale and through the works of John Morley... therefore he was able to rise above the Aligarh/Salariat/UP confusion ... had he been part of the regular Muslim Salariat on the other hand ... Pakistan would not have come in a 100 years...

After partition... the real educated middle class people came from the Salariat ... and they were clearly better than anything else at Pakistan`s disposal... but the basic thought structure was flawed... which is why they were rightly described as counterfeit coins by none other than Jinnah himself...

However... I have much more faith in the next generation of the former pre-partition salariat. The MQM cadre is no longer confused... and good things can be expected from the MQM`s governments in Sindh and Karachi especially.

#440
Well, I certainly don`t want peace with pathological liars like you.

Sadna...

Gandhiji could consider all black people subhuman and yet be admired by famous black leaders and you can`t make peace with us because we consider you subhuman? Come come now... thats just not fair.

re:#351 by HP
Do me a favor and read this.
HP,
Hinduism has survived for 5000 years (perhaps more) without conversion, proseletysing. It still has more than a billion adherents!
Is it not something to wonder how this happened despite all the savagery of muslim rule?
It is better to worship rat or snake than to kill others because somebody published the picture of your prophet.
Some tribal sects may be worshipping rat or snake but then they do not harm anybody. Hinduism is tolerant enough to ignore them. They don`t form the core of hindu philosophy.
As Yogananda said: God did not create the world the way a carpenter creates a furniture. A part of him became the universe. That is why hindus believe that the whole world is pervaded by God`s presence. He is in the atom and between the galaxies. He is everywhere. Sages and Seers who knew this experientially saw idol worship, worship of animals etc (done by ignorant people even to the present day) as something that needs to be tolerated, hoping that they would eventually advance spiritually. There was no use condemning the ignorant or even persecuting them. That is why, no religious persecution has ever existed in Hindusim (despite a lot of other ills like the caste system).
When your prophet said: God is one, he was right. But the question is: do muslims truly believe that message? Because, if they do, there is no quarrel at all. Your God is same as my God!
Such a realization in oneness of God needs to come thr` spirutual experience and not thr` reading scriptures or, in your case, the Qoran.
Sridhar

re:#420 by sadna
I do not think India is seeking peace with Pak. If India had her way, she would dillydally for ever, maintaining the status quo.
However, US is putting pressure on both India and Pak to sue for peace. It serves US interest in the region. In the long run, India has to find ways of peaceful existence with Pak.
Sridhar

#436 by jang

[......it will evolve (as it has been in bombay entertainment industry) by absorbing more sansktritized words....]


Here`s a news flash:

Urdu is a language STRICTLY descended from Sanskrit, just like Hindi or Bengali or Punjabi.

Over the years, it has been Islamicized, by:

1) Writing it in camel-jockey script, and

2) substituting pre-existing sanskrit-derived words with Persian and Arabic words as much as possible.


The situation would be analogous to people substituting Hindi words with English and French Words, then writing Hindi using English alphabets, and then claiming a European lineage for the language. Unfortunately, language lineage is based on such things as grammer and language structure, and it`s impossible to change that.

Islamic folks should get used to the brutal truth. It might hurt in the beginning, but there it is.

Sorry!

i think the future of urdu in pakistan lies in bombay, which is the epicentre if media industry. as urstruly wisely commented, it will evolve (ass it has been in bombay entertainment industry) by absorbing more sansktritized words, writers of soap operas and sa-re-ga-ma will refine it and set it free..ameen.

Are there any chapters in that ICS guy`s book derogatory to Muslims which I can name Urstruly or being derogatory was one-way traffic for a pre-independence Pakistani too?