Husain, Hinduism, Hindustan: Testing Tolerance

``You are not going to get off on a technicality. The point stands.``

What obfuscation. Either way you can apologize....... you can say that you did not understand what I wrote and apologize for misreading me...............

But from what I can see - you deliberately chose to do that .................

I think your mens rea is even more stark and proves that you lie deliberately..........

No apology coming. There is only a word missing in my post- ``Constitutional``. The rest is the same.

You are not going to get off on a technicality. The point stands.

You believe that in order to be a ``Good Indian Muslim`` an Indian Muslim has to pass your school boy test of loyalty instead of the constitutional tests prescribed by the Indian constitution- abiding by the law.

Please point out if this above understanding is incorrect.

``You wrote about Indian Muslims being good or bad. This amounts to your theory of citizenship``

More pathetic lies from you Manto.......has all intellectual honesty deserted you.......if you had done this in any academic forum ...and kept upon repeating this lie you would have been blacklisted from discussions............

The fact is that you deliberately attribute theories and opinions to interactors in order to try and score some points

---

This is called LYING ...............

I demand an apology for this misconstruction...............

Dear Ballu Khan...

Don`t twist and turn.

You wrote about Indian Muslims being good or bad. This amounts to your theory of citizenship. According to you an Indian is only a good Indian if he follows your ideas (which in any event are NOT secular but fascist) on Indian identity.

I am giving you the constitutional theory of citizenship: Law abiding citizens are as good as members of the state as anyone else.

I am not concerned whether a citizen is a Muslim, Hindu, Christian or whatever. The rules for being a good citizen of the republic should be the same for everyone ... and under the brilliant Indian constitution they are indeed the same... law abiding citizens are good citizens regardless of whether they admire Jinnah or hate him, admire Gandhi or hate him .. regardless of whether they supported the movement for Pakistan or opposed it (ANP in Pakistan and IUML in India)...

This is simple rule- a rule that UN charter of Human Rights has laid down ... as the right of nationality and freedom of conscience.

I would atleast expect an APOLOGY from you for deliberately attributing false theories to me...........

Re: # 329

And this is by your own admission:-

``#329 by Mantolives on February 22, 2006 11:00pm PT
ballu...

No- you didn`t talk of any theory of citizenship- I did. ``

Yes......you talked about a theory of citizenship..........and you falsely attributed it to me because you wanted to distort my views before every one............

You are indeed a LIAR............

I again repeat the YOU ARE A LIAR because you deliberately choose to distort views contrary to yours....................

you said this-

``Your personal theory of Indian citizenship and the corresponding school boy test for Indian Muslims is not secular ... it is fascist. Thankfuly the Indian constitution, a truly secular document, does not prescribe your nonsense``

The proof proves that you are a LIAR is too stark......................

Farzana...

I refrained from congratulating you on this before... but it seems that I have been left with no choice with selective hagiography, myths and lies...

Husain is only a modern-day Gandhi. He has used the prototype of the naked fakir and transformed it into Sufi charlatan. He makes a mockery of poverty by going around unshod when he has shoes that cost Rs. 5 lakh. He too is experimenting with the truth; if Gandhi tested his powers of abstinence by sleeping with virgins, Husain by painting nude goddesses is testing his ability not to be titillated (ironically, both end up playing to the gallery and titillating others). He, like Gandhi, wants to hold on to his religious identity and yet pander to the baser instincts of an audience that will react – either sharply or slavishly. He has merely contorted his old poster-art model to make the goddesses articulate outside of the framework, so to speak. This is deviously whetting the appetite. He is marketing religiosity even as he twists it.

Truer words have not been written.

#318 by bjkumar

[In my part of Bihar, what used to be peaceful morning walks at 5 AM are impossible now - the local masjid has a loud-speaker which penetrates the morning sleep and tries to bring salvation and enlightenment to its captive audience - ready or not - in a foreign language which few understand. And sure enough, shortly after it started - the local Hanuman Mandir got its own loudspeaker, too - so the rest of the city got its share, too. ]

Yes, but in this 50-50 scenario, did you notice who got the loudspeaker first?


[And some Muslims make such a big deal about having the Shariat laws exclusively - tell me who suffers from those laws - it`s the Indian women who happens to be unfortunate enough to be born a Muslim and are not members of the upper strata! How does it hurt the Hindus? It does not - so why should they care?

Because believe it or not - some do care for others and it is downright dishonest to condemn them simply because they are Hindus.... ]

It has seemed to me that some of the most virulent Islamists, including on Chowk, are women.

I think Hindus would do well to stop getting into their business by trying to change the laws they hold so dear to their heart.

If they like Islam so much, then let them enjoy it.


[Farzana is an Indian citizen and it is absolutely disgraceful to ask her to leave India. ]

No it`s not. Do you know the conditions under which an American citizen can lose his/her citizenship?


[It is easy to dismiss the steady rise of BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, and other groups like that as the handiwork of a few fringe elements. It is easy and it is dishonest! Because indeed structural changes have been occuring in the Indian society and perhaps the underlying reasons - to remain a separate identity - have always been there and so far the Muslim leadership has done diddley squat about them. ]


There are good reasons for the genesis of the hatred (the Muslim emperors and the Muslim rule over the years), and for the perpetuation of the hatred (Partition - asked for by Muslims, as well as the Islamic terrorists killing and terrorizing Hindus in Kashmir year after year, and the general popularity of the Kashmir ``freedom struggle`` amongst Pakistani Muslims, and YES, MANY Indian Muslims as well).

The BJP etc. did not grow in a vacuum. If things continue along the same lines, this will only get worse.

ballu...

No- you didn`t talk of any theory of citizenship- I did.

You spoke of an arbitrary distinction of what a good Muslim or a bad Muslim is... your own constitution rejects your arbitrary distinction as hot air.

Rsridhar,

Why are you apologising for being a true Gandhian for once?

After all Gandhi encouraged Maulana Azad to give the fatwa calling for voluntary ethnic cleansing in 1920s... it only failed because Afghanistan etc humiliated the first lot of Islamic fools who went there.


Ballu,

I want people to be ``good muslim``? How?

How is posting the simple theory of constitutional citizenship- a citizen of any state is a good citizen as long as he abides by the laws and pays his taxes- unacceptable to you?
Please lie some more and prove to us that you are a true Gandhian indeed. As Gandhi said... you have to be a Hindu first to be a true Indian. I suppose you are the 2.0 version.



BJKumar..

The problem with your long-winded post is that despite all attempts anyone who reads history unbiasedly will see the facts for what they are. When I sleep at night... my conscience is clear.

I will continue to expose Gandhi`s misogynist, casteist, exclusivist and racist ideas.

``constitutional secular theory of citizenship``

Mr. Manto.....you are a lier because I never talked about any theory of citizenship...........you deliberately chose to put words and theories in my mouth.........that is why I call you a lier..............

``Humanity`s greatest icons``

You mean the misogynist, racist, casteist Hindu fanatic? Yes reality is indeed starkly different from what you guys imagine it to be.

Re: # 302
``IMs have a lot to gain by becoming secular, joining the mainstream, something that has not happened. ``

I would even disagree to this . IM-s are already secular and there is no need for them to join any stream. They are already in the mainstream. It is just that you fail to see and recognize them. IM-s by not getting infected by the Jinnah`s madcow disease called TNT, are by default supporters of secularism.....................Compare them with the ``good`` muslim that YLH would like us to be and you would realize that the Pakistani muslims are the biggest communalists in this region trying to incite communalism every where they can................

On secularism, I would also say that the fingers get directed towards those hindus who want to decide what the mainstream india is.............
.

#318 by bjkumar

BJ Sahib, that was a beautiful post! Unfortunately, some people think the only way to resurrect their leader`s imagined legacy is by discrediting one of mankind`s greatest icons, but they do not realize that they`re pissing into the wind. We do, for we can smell the stink.

Dear Ballu Khan,

I am afraid you are being deliberately dishonest.

I don`t hate either Shah Rukh, Irfan Pathan or Kalaam. Infact I am a great fan of Irfan Pathan. He has done India proud. I am glad there are successful people everywhere.. If anything the continued Hindu-Muslim conflict is the best rebuttal to creation of Pakistan and not its affirmation. As I explained on this website many times- we see Gujurat violence not as a reaffirmation of Pakistan... but rather an argument against it for it has failed to bring lasting peace between Hindus and Muslims.

The point simply is the constitutional secular theory of citizenship... it has nothing to do with my ``mentor`s`` alleged ``two nation theory``. A good citizen of any country is one who is law abiding and remains loyal to the country`s constitution. This was my ``mentor`s`` view- this was also Nehru`s view- this was Ambedkar`s view as well .

Your tests on the other hand are school boy tests of loyalty... prescribed by fascists in Germany and Italy during the second world war.

-YLH

``it is people like Ballu and Mohar11- who are passing off their fascist inclinations as ``secularism`` when it is not secularism. ``

This man is an expert in spreading lies ........ the fact of the matter is that every successful muslim is not a ``good`` muslim because a successful muslim is a direct REFUTATION of his mentor`s TNT.

That is why he hates Sharukh Khan, Iran Pathan or Kalam............and tries to pull them down by mocking at them .........................

Talking about falsifiability- Every successful IM is a direct refutation of the TNT so dear to these Pakistani nationalists.................

Jang...

Read the whole statement... I can see why it can be confused.

But I am not asking Masadi to leave... I am just trying to determine why he chooses to stick around. He certainly wasn`t born there ... In my opinion he chooses to stay in the US because it provides him the intellectual freedom as well as financial stability to continue to live there...

No comparison with Farzana is on. Farzana was born and raised an Indian..

Sadna..

The views that you`ve expressed in 298 is exactly what I am saying.

As long as one follows the constitution of a country, abides by the laws and pays his taxes he is a good citizen of that country- regardless of his ideology.

I am not sure how ``Pakistanis`` are putting the ideological gloss here... it is people like Ballu and Mohar11- who are passing off their fascist inclinations as ``secularism`` when it is not secularism.

I am glad that atleast on this one thing - citizenship - we are on the same page.

Re: # 317

Yes and that silly article 370 or something like that on Kashmir too.
Throw it away.

#All

I would just like to add a couple of more thoughts to what I was earlier discussing in #218, #209, #206, #205, etc.

I explained how I see an analogy between the segregated lives of Black and White Americans from the past and the segregated lives of Indian Muslims and Indian Hindus at present, by and large.

Most Black Americans were not opposed to mingling with White Americans - they were prevented from it by fear of encountering potential violence - and it was the same with the White Americans. In my view, in many ways (at least in small towns and villages across India) it is somewhat similar with Hindus and Muslims. Hindus and Muslims live in separate areas because they fear for their physical safety otherwise.

It was not always like that. Once upon a time, there used to be a mingling of people - irrespective of religion - at village level - places of worship inside villages were community properties and everybody respected them and took care of them - it was not considered unusual for a Muslim sweeper to be tending to the upkeep of the garden around the temple and vice versa. There were spoken relations and ties that existed among people - people who respected others` religions and practiced the essence of what was in theirs - with less emphasis on the showy part.

At some point, this Muslim exclusivity and this concept of a separateness of identity - as if the common folks were different from each other - got into the minds of some people and took hold in vast masses of the Muslim population - or perhaps there was a latent fear/superiority complex already there - perhaps somewhat akin to the fears and complexes that white South Africans may have felt in surrendering power to the black majority - and their leaders took advantage of it for their own purposes - and some fools continue to defend those acts and motives to this day! In my view, those leaders were utter hypocrites and their present day followers either meet the same description or are simply ignorant! It is virtually impossible to make me think otherwise - and you know what - it is the same way for vast masses in India and (if one were not to be brain-washed by an authoritarian regime) perhaps elsewhere in the subcontinent.

And what do we have now? Now it is the other way around. When it comes to religion, it is all show but little substance - and a lot of mere politics.

In my part of Bihar, what used to be peaceful morning walks at 5 AM are impossible now - the local masjid has a loud-speaker which penetrates the morning sleep and tries to bring salvation and enlightenment to its captive audience - ready or not - in a foreign language which few understand. And sure enough, shortly after it started - the local Hanuman Mandir got its own loudspeaker, too - so the rest of the city got its share, too.

The problem starts when one starts putting religion ahead of common people, and common decency, and common sense!

And some Muslims make such a big deal about having the Shariat laws exclusively - tell me who suffers from those laws - it`s the Indian women who happens to be unfortunate enough to be born a Muslim and are not members of the upper strata! How does it hurt the Hindus? It does not - so why should they care?

Because believe it or not - some do care for others and it is downright dishonest to condemn them simply because they are Hindus - one only sees in others (and ascribes the motives) as one wishes to - as Farzana is so fond of telling us!

It is easy to dismiss the steady rise of BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena, and other groups like that as the handiwork of a few fringe elements. It is easy and it is dishonest! Because indeed structural changes have been occuring in the Indian society and perhaps the underlying reasons - to remain a separate identity - have always been there and so far the Muslim leadership has done diddley squat about them.

Instead, we have such pearls of wisdom as declaring a price on the heads of Danish newspaper person. You tell me - is this all we have to show for sixty years of the secular training - so where is the Muslim outrage? Instead we have demonstrations supporting such acts?! It is very difficult to believe that Muslims don`t have a problem.

So, people like Farzana should not try to explain to people like me how BJP and the rest of the crowds are big bad wolves - because it does not matter what you explain to this interactor - the general population of Hindus will NEVER believe you - and the few Muslims who do so needed no convincing in the first place because they had already convinced themselves - like you have.

People like Manto (and perhaps Farzana, too - after all they do seem to cheer for each other) can perhaps make a difference in the thinking of some people. But in reality, they can do very little and in fact they can do virtually nothing in terms of making things go the right way as long as their means are not absolutely honest! In order to make a difference, one needs more than a handful of followers. One needs a LOT of believers.

They have to ask themselves that question - in arguments of this nature, are they applying the same standards to themselves as they expect of others?

It is the height of naivete that if one believes with all his/her heart in the goodness of the goals - nobody would pay attention to the means used - and ``a little`` dishonesty is okay - in fact, that ``little`` dishonesty can truly ruin a LOT of good intentions. And guess who suffers more from the resulting upheaval. (Hint: it`s the minority, stupid! It`s ALWAYS the minority, stupid!)

I see Manto and his little lady throwing abusive terms left and right on the long dead Gandhiji - on boards which have nothing to do with Gandhiji - as if that is the only way to rile up his people and make the Pakistanis alive to the glory of what they would have been about - that ``great`` Jinnah vision (the reality is starkly different). And I see Farzana (and her chowk ``staff``) letting such charade go on and on and in fact I see her using the same name as a baiting tool in her own article! Now you tell me, why would I consider her honest? And you heard me right - I did not say objective, I said HONEST!

Farzana is an Indian citizen and it is absolutely disgraceful to ask her to leave India. But that does not mean she has a clean chit and a clean record and an exclusive right to make arguments which in her heart she knows are dishonest. I chided Ms. Sadna for saying what she did but I can certainly understand some of her frustration.

Because, one can not fool all the people, whether they are your antagonists or your well-wishers - not even for some time - like Jinnah did (in my opinion) - we don`t live in the same times any more! People can tell honest motives and means from dishonest ones - and will react - so the end results of ``honest`` motives that are sought by using dishonest means is that legitimate causes will suffer setbacks.

Simple as that.

Re: # 316 DM

Well - Nehru is dead for a long time now and so is Rajiv.... can we just move on now?.... I mean - if it was all their fault - what prevents us from undoing their mistakes?..... Not that I want take anything away from those two bygone m0r0ns but hey - how long can you keep blaming the old fellas?.... it`s time to take responsibility and do the right thing... off with all ``personal`` laws and sharia bullsh!!t.. enough already....

rsridhar:

``If constitution is the final arbiter of everything, IMs should have no problems doing away with shariat law that is dragging them to medieval times but then they won`t allow even a debate on it.``

The constitution does provide for separate personal laws for different religions, so IMs are not going against the constitution in following their personal laws. And you should blame your favourite leader Nehru instead of Indian Muslims. Go and follow the discussions in the Constituent Assembly and you will find that Muslims did not make a strong demand for a separate law for themselves. And it was Rajiv Gandhi who went against his Muslim Law Minister`s advice and succumbed to the Muslim vote bank.

re:#309 by dost-mittar
When muslims bring in their religion in public dealings, that is not being secular. Secularism is a mental attitude, where one is able to keep religion at a personal level when dealing with various issues. At least that is my understanding. Secularism as defined in the West means State should keep away from religion but then India is different and needs a different definition of secularism.
This does not mean: do not be religious or flaunt religion in public (we all know what happens in Diwali, Dussehra) but it only means: keep religion away from public discourse.
An MP calling for the head of Danish cartoonist is certainly not being secular even though he is trying to be a jingoistic muslim.
Sridhar

mohar11 #299
Those are murderous suicidal Brits :).

nasah #300
Keep your hypothetical chef away from my hypothetical vegetarian duck which lives with a cat:).

re:#285 by kaalchakra
For Pete`s sake, MF Hussain is more than 90 years old.
Some people are just pathetic.
Sridhar

re:#284 by arjun_m
I have already said in the past: hindu fundamentalism as we witness today is a reaction to muslim fundamentalism. Both thrive on each other (as is usually the case). Both need to be weeded out by their respective community.
Sridhar

re:#276 by Mantolives
(I shudder to read the views of people like Avkrishna.. and to my utter dismay even someone like Dost Mittar is providing the fuel for such majoritarianism.)
Coming from an Islamic Dictatorship, your shuddering does not make much impact.
Keep shuddering!
Sridhar

re:#276 by Mantolives
(The idea that the minority must conform to the national self image of the majority is not secularism... it is simply fascism.)
No, minority can go ahead and keep issuing fatwas, get enmeshed in religious frenzy and wait for a backlash from the right wing groups, all because they have a freedom of choice and they have misused it.
There is nothing wrong in looking upto the majority if there is good in it.
If constitution is the final arbiter of everything, IMs should have no problems doing away with shariat law that is dragging them to medieval times but then they won`t allow even a debate on it.
Manto miyan,
Your nation is headed by a dictator who has trashed the constitution, much like his predecessors have in the past.
And u have the balls to lecture Indians about the constitution!
Get a life.
Sridhar

rsridhar & others:

There is no requirement for a Muslim or anyone else to be ``secular`` in order to be an Indian or even a ``good Indian``. Frankly, I am not sure what ``secular`` means for an individual; I know for the state, it means a separation between the church and itself but what does it mean for an individual? Does it mean that one has to be irreligious or treat every religous belief equally, which to me is an absurd proposition? All one can expect from anyone, regardless of his or her religious beliefs, is adherence to the laws of the land and not discriminate against anyone on the basis of religious beliefs in their economic or legal interaction. One cannot even demand people to be non-communal in their outlook although that would be a desirable attribute, in my opinion.

#306 Nasah et al.

I am sorry, my ``sweetheart`` - that question should have been directed to the editor!

(Note: I am only trying to ``sweeten`` this board a bit - I neither claim nor seek romantic liasons with you - besides, this is public domain!)

I was trying to name your names in chronological order - but simply lost count.

After all, who counts at a time like this!

re:#267 by Zeena
(Pakistan wellcomes each and every muslims with open arms and heart. Pakistan is much more accomodative in the sense, Pakistan accomodated Millions of Afghan refugees and Bihariis so far.)
Ha, ha, ha!
You can depend on me to educate you everytime u interact with me.
You have probably not heard of the stranded Biharis in Bangladesh. These people even have a website.
http://www.statelesspeopleinbangladesh.net/home.php
( Pakistan only accepted about one third of this population for repatriation. Estimated 250,000 have been living as stateless people in camps in Bangladesh for more than a quarter of a century. Their story of woes in Bangladesh is as cruel as it is long.)
And, they are living in wretched conditions.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-07/2005-07-27-voa39.cfm?CFID=32201857&CFTOKEN=50528587
(The Biharis are Pakistani nationals, essentially stranded in Bangladesh since 1971, when the former East Pakistan became the independent country of Bangladesh. They once lived in the Indian state of Bihar, but migrated from India in 1947 after the partition of India. At that time, more than three thousand kilometers of India separated West and East Pakistan.

However, the Urdu-speaking Biharis in East Pakistan could not assimilate with the surrounding Bengali society there and remained a distinct cultural-linguistic group. They generally identified with West Pakistani society and associated themselves with the West Pakistani governing elite.)
Now, do me a favor and tell your dictator that there is at least one IM that India would be interested in having. His name is Dawood Ibrahim. The guy is an International smuggler, mass murderer hiding in Pakistan and is on the Interpol search list.
Sridhar

cheer up bjk -- cheer up -- this board was getting a little too vindictive too stuffy too nitpicky -- just relax.....and quit naming names twice......:)

#262 by Mantolives
(Read Mahmood Mamdani`s ``Good Muslim Bad Muslim``... he is an Indian and Mira Nair`s husband.)
Manto miyan,
This link says Mamdani is a (Third-generation East African of Indian ancestry born in Uganda, but exiled from that country twice because of his heritage and political beliefs. After receiving a PhD at Harvard in 1974, he is now the director of the Institute for African Studies at Columbia University.)
Sound like a Sindhi who has probably never seen India and whose forefathers migrated to Uganda from an undivided India.
Anyway, few know Mamdani (whose only claim to fame is he is Mira Nair`s husband) but Abdul Kalam is an Indian icon.
Sridhar

#300 Nasah/Kardesh/TipuSultan/..../Salim_Chauhan/Nasah/....?

Is your interact relevant to the topic or does the editor use a different standard for filtering YOUR interacts? Or are you the ultimate standard for measuring her credibility and building up chowk`s?

re:#259 by harish_hyd
I am sorry i said that. I was very angry when i wrote that post. I apologise to ballukhan and other IMs in this forum.
Like that great urdu poet Ghalib said: ``khayal hi to hai, badal bhi sakta hai``!
Sridhar

re:#258 by ballukhan
(would protest and state that those who suggest that the IM-s should leave their motherland should first return to their `motherland` and do something for it before suggesting nazi type final solutions..)
It was only a wish. I know it will never materialize. That does not mean i am a hater of IMs. My past posts will tell u i am not.
But then, one wishes that the IMs who have chosen to remain in India behave differently from the Paki muslims so that the rest can say proudly how different they are (Ballukhan, i know u and many others fall in a different category but i am talking about the majority who do not). IMs have a lot to gain by becoming secular, joining the mainstream, something that has not happened. One feels disheartened by hearing stories like someone issuing fatwa against Sania Mirza, a muslim tennis player because of the way she dresses. She is so scared now that she recently refused to play with an Israeli player for fear of a backlash. This is not Pakistan, goddamit! This is India where every muslim should be able to breath free of the mullah. Now, one hears about fatwas issued against the Danish cartoonist, a muslim MP has offered a reward on his head. All this makes one wonder if IMs have lost their moorings.
About returning to India:
There is this misconception that one has to return to India to do something good. India did give me a decent education for which i am greatful but i really became what i am only in US. For sometime now, i have been donating liberally to a number of charitable institutions directly involved with work in India. Indians in America form a powerful caucus that lobbies hard for any good Indian cause. So, do not underestimate the power of NRIs.
Sridhar

Didn`t FV go to bat for Laloo..Think about it...she supports Laloo..she thinks OBL is like Aung Saang su ki..

These are the kind of people she has a track record of defending..indeed, not just defending...but cheerleading..

Don undone over handwriting sample

Amarnath Tewary/ Patna

Member of Parliament from Siwan Mohammed Shahabuddin, who represents Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav`s RJD, is embroiled in yet another controversy.



Apparently real life caught up with reel life when he allegedly re-enacted Munna Bhai MBBS while appearing for his LLB examination last year in Muzaffarpur. In the movie, Munna Bhai, by hook and by crook, became a successful MBBS student but Shahabu bhai unfortunately ended up in a greater controversy in the process of acquiring a much-coveted law degree.

For, this the `chhota bhai` of Mr Lalu Prasad Yadav on Tuesday simply declined to `write` before the cops as they wanted a specimen of his handwriting.

Pursuing the case, a Muzaffarpur police team arrived at Bhagalpur Central Jail where Mr Shahabuddin is currently ensconced to get a sample of his handwriting. A shaky Shahabu bhai refused to write anything on paper.

``I do not think that I have to prove my innocence in a case in which I am not in the least involved,`` Mr Shahbuddin reportedly told the police when asked to write on a piece of paper. The fuming Siwan MP with bushy eye-brows scolded the policemen, saying that he had lost faith in the integrity of Bihar Police.

``I will first consult my lawyers in this regard``, said Mr Shahabuddin.

However, sources said that Shahabu Bhai LLB-to-be could not resist the temptation of making a political statement on the handwriting spat. ``These things are happening at the instance of the Nitish Kumar Government and are part of a political vendetta``, said sources.

Importantly, the incorrigible MP from Siwan was lecturing before a judicial magistrate accompanying the police team. Well, how could Shahabu Bhai write his papers in the presence of a Magistrate? The RJD MP had reportedly appeared in a LLB examination Part-II last year in Muzaffarpur when a nationwide alert and arrest warrant was issued against him. The fugitive MP had stunned the State administration by appearing in the examination ``on paper``, though nobody at the centre had claimed to have seen him.

Later, the Dy. Inspector General of Police of Tirhut range Gupteshwar Pandey had ordered a probe into the case following which a police team from Muzaffarpur led by a DSP had reached Bhagalpur jail and sought a sample of Shahabuddin`s handwriting.

When the Muzaffarpur police team arrived at the Bhagalpur jail gate supporters and close confidantes of ShahabuBhai LLB-to-be too reached there alleging that that the present regime was trying to settle personal scores.

``Agar Bhai ka ek ishara ho jaye to hum kuch bhi kar sakte hain (We can do anything at a signal from Bhai},`` they reportedly said outside the jail gate.

Meanwhile, the troubled MP in a petition to the IG, Prisons has requested that he should be shifted to Siwan jail for the speedy trial of his pending cases.

Results for LLB Part-II are awaited and so also the fate of Shahabu Bhai .

``It is like there is no good duck or bad duck. .......... A duck is just a duck.``(Sadna)

dear Sadna -- are you sure there is no good duck or bad duck?

....you can ask any non vegetarian old chef......he will say: A duck is NOT just a duck...

....for culinary purposes -- an old duck is a bad duck a young duckling is a good duck -- and he may ask you to lighten up and smile..... :)

so let`s lighten up a bit and give a BIG smile.....:)

Re: # 298
[...But no one can be defined as less Indian or more Indian....]

That goes without saying.... but at the same time - let`s not be too politically correct :)))).... I mean - for example - guys who blew up the british metro..... are they bad brits? are they less brits?..... what are you going to say?.....

mohar11 #296
Well there is communalist Indian, there is secular Indian, there is pseudo-secular Indian, there is subversive Indian there is `bringing down the Indian state` Indian there is `defending the international frontlines` Indian. But no one can be defined as less Indian or more Indian.


It is like there is no good duck or bad duck. There may be a vegetarian duck which doesn`t quack and lives with a cat but it doesn`t have less duckiness or more duckiness. A duck is just a duck.

Manto has a solution.. he thinks indians who hate the setup so much should leave the country..heheh..

{#500 by Mantolives on February 22, 2006 7:26am PT
Dear Masadi...

Please tell us one thing. Why is it that if you hate the US so much ... do you continue to reside there.. }

Re: # 294 sadna
[...There is no good and bad Indian there is just Indian....]

Not really - there are good and bad indians..... for example - communalists like FV are bad indians..... secularism-promoting Ballu is a good Indian.....:))

Re: # 292 HP

OK - since your madrassa-educated brain didn`t catch the point - let me try again: While it`s NOT legally ``obligatory`` to be secular - but it`s something every modern society and civilized individual should pursue as a matter of principle ..... things do NOT always have to be legally binding before we as civilized people try to act upon it......

Let me give an somwhat analogous example - while it`s not legally required that you help a person in distress - it`s something you would do being civilized person ..... Such social actions are necessary to build the social integration and cohesion....

Same is true with secularism - every person should strive to be secular.... for a modern society to function - that`s must thing to have...... And we have plenty of examples what happens otherwise....That`s the reason Ballu`s call for muslims in india to be secular should be appreciated and commended..... not to be scorned at....

Get it?.....

Pakistanis can try their best to put an ideological gloss on stuff but in this case it doesn`t work. India is not an ideological state. Anyone who is a citizen of India is an Indian.

There is no good and bad Indian there is just Indian.

Re: # 287
[I believe that by nature, Indians - whether Hindus or Muslims - are not secular, only the Indian constitution is.]

DM
Can you in all honesty state that citizens of any country that emphasises the seperation of the state and religious bodies are secular? I know of no such place.

It`s my experience that even when secularism has to be rammed down people`s throats by the law/government in these enlightened (sic) nations, there will still be support for the fringe groups who believe that everything swings on religion or race.

272 YLH
``However the issue here is not imagined identity. An Indian Muslim need not adhere to your sense of ``nationalism`` or ``national identity`` to be accepted as an Indian. The theory of citizenship is that a citizen of a state is someone who accepts the writ of the state, pays taxes and is a law abiding naturalised resident- who is eligible for passport etc. Such a citizen might think that India is 2 nations, 3 nations or 10 nations... ordinarily he is considered a citizen...
``

So Smart Dude, whats law? how do you arrive at the state`s constituion?

Almost all muslims think that any law not based on sharia violates their lives and belive `koran has all laws which have to be literally followed`` etc etc

so in this case how can one make a One Just Constitution. Please enlighten us all

should 4 marraiges be banned or not? and all other questions. like alimony should be paid or not ??
and yes should cartoons be publishhed or not?

#291

I don`t know Bullah Khan is muslim or not. Nor do I care. For me, your nick is a Muslim name too.

I hope and wish that every Muslim in India and Pakistan is secular but the point here was that it is not obligatory to be secualr to be a good Indian or Indian Muslim. Since you have acknowledged it already, rest of your post just shows your stupidity in trying to make a point where none exists.

Your problems with following the posts are well known so I am not going to go in details with you.

Re: # 280 HP
[....Why Muslims have to be secular to qualify for the “Good Indian Muslim” certificate...]

Why not?...How is being secular a bad thing?..... Of course, from a legal stand-point nobody HAS to be secular or anything else for that matter..... From a social setup point of view - it`s definitely a worthwhile goal to ``encourage`` people to be secular and actively promote secularism among all sections of the society...... especially in india - where communal problems exist in many places..... So if giving “Good Indian Muslim” certificate to secular muslims promotes secularism in a secular state - how is that a bad thing?.....

Either way - why are pakis going all ape-sh!t over this?..... that too when ballukahn, an indian muslim himself is advocating the promotion of secularism among muslims?.....That too from pakis who claim to be secular themselves?.....

Why are pakis so stupid?....

arjun_m
Carry on with your blabings against muslims.

#285 by kaalchakra on February 22, 2006 10:35am PT


That`s not even funny!!


I don`t think they`re trying to be funny...The message is simple: ``there they go again..those muslims..we told you so..``..

Jang:

``its the definition of communalism. there is a pathalogical problem if one starts feeling sqeezed by majority community due to green tiles in public restrooms, crowds in bombay due to lines for ganesha drinking binge and so on.``

It is easy to take someone`s words out of the context. But I also remember her condemnation of the beatings of Asghar Engineer by fanatical Muslims and how the Indian officials ignore a dissident Muslim like him in preference to orthodoxy that toes the official lines.

Mantolives#273:

I am not sure what part of my post dismayed you. This has been my consistent position at chowk all along. I do believe that the minority intolerance, too, is unacceptable because it creates an environment in which majority communalism can be exploited. If I recall, I had said the same thing to you in an interact a couple of years ago. How can those indulging in hooliganism against Hussain be punished if those offering rewards for the killing of someone be allowed to hold a Ministerial office? The pusillanimous Indian leaders have the record of catering to the all communalists, like caving in to the Shah Bano case protests and balancing it with equally unprincipled pandering to the Hindu communalism by their Shilanyas at the Babri Masjid. Instead of pandering to the communal feelings of all, the policy should be equal condemnation of all.

I believe that by nature, Indians - whether Hindus or Muslims - are not secular, only the Indian constitution is. And if that constitution is to be respected, then it is the job of the government to ensure that any violation of the secular principles is not tolerated. regardless of the person/group belonging to the majority or minority. This is the only way, in my opinion, that the rights of the minorities can be protected in the long run.

Re: # 281 YLH

Point taken...... but I thought you wanted muslims in pakistan to be secular..... in that case - why are you objecting to muslims in India being secular or if anybody is advocating to make them secular?.... how is that a bad thing?.....

# 284

That`s not even funny!! Some demented nut might take all that seriously! If these are bad jokes, they must be quickly and publicly retracted.

This is getting too pathetic for words. Geez, there is a real human being involved, who is being threatened.

The hindu nuts are already exploiting the fact that the muslim nut put out a hit on the danish cartoonists...It`s obviously a dig at quereishi guy and muslims in general..

Rs 51cr ‘reward’ for killing MF Husain
PTI
Wednesday, February 22, 2006 20:12 IST

LUCKNOW/INDORE: The Hindu Personal Law Board on Wednesday announced a Rs 51 crore reward for eliminating artist M F Husain and others while a Congress minority cell leader offered Rs 11 lakh to any ``patriot`` chopping off the painter`s hands for hurting Hindu sentiments.

``Anyone who kills Husain for making obscene paintings of goddess Sarswati and Bharat Mata, the Danish cartoonist, those in the German company printing pictures of Ram and Krishna on tissue paper and the French filmmaker desecrating Lord Shiva will be given Rs 51 crore in cash by the board,`` its president Ashok Pandey said in Lucknow.

If Uttar Pradesh Haj Minister Yaqoob Qureshi undertook the job ``he will be given Rs 101 crore,`` it added cryptically.

``Peace will not prevail on earth unless such people are eliminated,`` he said and urged Qureshi to set out on the mission.

Madhya Pradesh Congress Committee Minority Cell vice-chairman Akthar Baig in Indore said the painter had ``played with the sentiments of the people and tried to disrupt communal harmony in the past by painting nude pictures of Hindu gods and goddess and now of Bharat Mata``.

It will be in the ``interest of the nation if a patriot will chop off his hands. I will give that person Rs 11 lakh,`` he said.

The Congress leader asked the government to take back all the honours bestowed on the noted painter and declare him a ``traitor``.

Baig had filed a petition in an Indore court against Bollywood actor Dharmendra`s purported second marriage to Hema Malini.

I take exception to the term Indian Muslim. I did not know what IM meant (on chowk) till now. I take exception to the term Indian Hindu, Indian Catholic etc ....

If you cannot seperate the Indian bit of it from the silly religious baggage that people carry around then nobody has any business talking about secularism. You may as well as talk about Hindu, Muslim, Christian etc, and to hell with the country.

S

Good night everyone.

Ballu Khan,

Your personal theory of Indian citizenship and the corresponding school boy test for Indian Muslims is not secular ... it is fascist. Thankfuly the Indian constitution, a truly secular document, does not prescribe your nonsense.

Like I pointed out ... a minority only needs to be law abiding and obedient to the constitution... beyond that the minority need not pander to whims of the majority national self image- in any state. There is no parody here- a simple rule and nothing else- a rule accepted by all constitutional democracies of the world including India.

A good Indian Muslim does not have to be secular. Indian constitution maybe secular but it does not require its citizens to be secular.

The second largest Party and its allies don’t support secularism. They are still Indian and will remain Indian despite their opposition to one clause in the Indian constitution.

Why Muslims have to be secular to qualify for the “Good Indian Muslim” certificate?

#264 DM with his silken touch.. ( we are not worthy icon)..

``I think that she believes that the majority communalism is dangerous and can lead a society to a genocidal disaster. And I agree with this view. ``

its the definition of communalism. there is a pathalogical problem if one starts feeling sqeezed by majority community due to green tiles in public restrooms, crowds in bombay due to lines for ganesha drinking binge and so on. i mean complaining about crowded streets in bombay? all windmills are not communal.

Re: # 272

I think we have had your parody of what a good IM should be ...................this is exactly a Pakistani perspective......................and the Pakistanis have been taught to demean IM-s as someone who are in some way `inferior` for having rejected their founding father`s invitation to their pureland...........................

We all know what a good Indian is.............but you insist upon parodying ..........................so be it- a successful IM is infact a refutation of your TNT- so you insist upon parodying successful IM- So be it!!

You are most of the time so predictable...............

So evocative of the Mahabharatha itself - good people arrayed on all sides. The only way to ``fight`` is to fight for and against principles, not for and against individuals :)

HP 273

Well said...

And to think this fellow (who is probably not what he claims to be) is trying to enlist Farzana Versey in this programme of fascist reaffirmation of majoritarianism when her entire angle has been forwarding the view your post 273 so succinctly puts:

Sorry, the democracy means that Muslims in India can follow anything within the bounds of Indian constitution and not betray the country in any unethical manner. As long as they don’t injure the Indian state, they have every right to protest. Another group of people cannot decide their loyalty to the country. The litmus test can only be the Indian constitution.

I shudder to read the views of people like Avkrishna.. and to my utter dismay even someone like Dost Mittar is providing the fuel for such majoritarianism.

Re: # 264

Hey DM,

``Yes, the majority bigotry and intolerance can lead to a fascist society. But the minority intolerance and refusal to integrate with the mainstream is equally threatening, in my opinion, as it provides the kind of explosive environment in which the Modis of this world thrive.
````

Very well put. To extend this further, I believe, and I think many of my generation agree, that Majority aggressiveness is the only answer to cure India of the ills caused by minority intolerance.

Thanks,
Avkrishna

272... the theory of citizenship I give is also the only truly secular theory and hence true secular democracy.

The idea that the minority must conform to the national self image of the majority is not secularism... it is simply fascism.

#268 by ballukhan

“Ofcourse..........let me state it even more clearly for you............A ``good`` IM is someone who does not accept your founding father`s TNT, whole heartedly accepts secularism and rejects politics of imaginary purelands.”

That is just great. So Muslims in India have to follow a certain “path” defined by the majority to be considered “Good Indian Muslims”.

Fabulous! It is almost like telling Muslims to leave the country because you don’t fit a certain profile.

It is telling blacks to join the Republican Party or they can’t be called a good American.
Take political rights away from one community.

This is what racial profiling is.

Sorry, the democracy means that Muslims in India can follow anything within the bounds of Indian constitution and not betray the country in any unethical manner.

As long as they don’t injure the Indian state, they have every right to protest. Another group of people cannot decide their loyalty to the country. The litmus test can only be the Indian constitution.

But then we are talking about Indian democracy.

Ballu Khan...

Ah.,, Who may I add is a good Indian then?

Wait I know- ``I am a Hindu first- therefore a true Indian``: Mahatma Gandhi That is your father of the nation- not mine.

However the issue here is not imagined identity. An Indian Muslim need not adhere to your sense of ``nationalism`` or ``national identity`` to be accepted as an Indian. The theory of citizenship is that a citizen of a state is someone who accepts the writ of the state, pays taxes and is a law abiding naturalised resident- who is eligible for passport etc. Such a citizen might think that India is 2 nations, 3 nations or 10 nations... ordinarily he is considered a citizen...

For example... to me Wali Khan was a good Pakistani regardless of his views on partition or his Pushtun identity... because he was a law abiding Pakistani.

Re: # 268


Ballukhanji,

Can you have thousands of kids who grow will grow up to be like you?

#266 by arjun_m

Arjun, (Now that you seem to be interested in discussions with some seriousness!)

Sometime ago I posted this on one of FV’s threads.


“#168 by HP on May 25, 2005 11:50pm PT

The Bamiyan Buddha and the Babri Masjid incident are separated by two factors. While the Babri demolition was designed to humiliate Muslims in India, the Biyaman destruction was to show that Buddhist civilization, that was already extinct in Afghanistan, was being replaced by the new civilization. Lucky for the humanity, the New Civilization in Afghanistan did not last long.”

Even though both incidents were wrong but by saying ``there are no Buddhists in that area`` She obviously meant that the Buddhist civilization was already extinct in Afghanistan.

Both incidents were different but equally reprehensible.

DM
[....she were living in Pakistan, she would be equally tough on Muslim fundamentalists....]

Yeah - that`s why she was supporting taliban`s ``right to exist`` and their right to blow of buddhas?..... Get real, will ya?.....

While Abdul Lungi is out there burning temples, mullahs out to behead people - we have FV crying wolf over hinduiastion, nasah cheer-leading her with rhetorics..... doesn`t that tell you something?...... These people are nuts!!!!

``Ofcourse Muslims are only good as long as they read Geeta every morning (Kalam), get wickets for India (Irfan- man he is the only cool guy on this list) and declare openly that Mecca is a stupid place (Shahrukh Khan)... ``


Ofcourse..........let me state it even more clearly for you............A ``good`` IM is someone who does not accept your founding father`s TNT, whole heartedly accepts secularism and rejects politics of imaginary purelands.

And yet has more faith in the almighty that any of the Pakistani pretenders around..............................

I am sure FV fits into all these pretty well as well!!

#252 rsridhar
So, your highness ordered all Indian muslims to pack their bags and leave for Pakistan.
Pakistan wellcomes each and every muslims with open arms and heart. Pakistan is much more accomodative in the sense, Pakistan accomodated Millions of Afghan refugees and Bihariis so far. And, all are living happily ever after.

#264 by dost-mittar on February 22, 2006 6:27am PT


So, why this controversy about her?


You don`t think he saying the destruction of the bamiyan buddhas was not comparable to the babri masjid demolition because ``there are no buddhists in that area`` is a problem? Or her comparing, before 9/11, Osama Bin Laden with Aung Sang suu Ki..

Re: #263

[....How do we make Abdul Lungi stop burning stuff and start living normally?.... ]


You cannot. As long as you have pseudo-intellectual and selectively secular (therefore communal) elements like Farzana and Mantolives providing the covering fire for them and creating an atmosphere where they can operate at will.

To get anything done, we have to get rid of elements like them as well as the lefty elements in our country. But these hypocrites start screaming at the top of their lungs at the slightest provocation. So it`s not going to be easy.

As ususal at chowk, the discussion has moved into new directions, esp. it`s now about the author and not about Husain or Hinduism, though it is still about Hindustan.

As I have said before, I do not consider FV to be an Islamist or a Muslim fundamentalist. I think that she is secular to the core and her personal life would perhaps qualify her to be what the BJP calls a ``Hindu Muslim`` and she once said that she was at one time even thinking of supporting the BJP.

So, why this controversy about her? Although I do not remember her saying so, I think that she believes that the majority communalism is dangerous and can lead a society to a genocidal disaster. And I agree with this view. I think that if she were living in Pakistan, she would be equally tough on Muslim fundamentalists. But she is living in India and her concerns are about her country and the future of her own community in it.

She belongs to the Nehru and JNU school in that she does not consider minority commuanlism to be as great a threat to society as majority communalism. This is a mistake that the Hindu secularists in India have also made, since before the partition and continue to do so to this day. They prefer to go along with the obscurantist elements among Muslims and ignore the progressives, presuming that the latter do not speak for the community.

This is a mistake that the likes of Nasah and ballukhan do not make and rightly so. Take, for example, the contemporary political scene in India. The saffron forces are moribund. The Shiv Sena is caught in a family feud. The BJP is directionless and its top leadership is at loggerheads with each other. Its role as an official opposition has been pathetic. There is serious talk of a viable Third Front. Left to its own devices, the BJP shows little signs of a turnaround. So, as if on cue from the BJP, a Minister, no less, offers a sum of Rs. 51 crores to anyone who can kill a cartoonst for drawing the Prophet`s cartoon, thus making the opposition to the Hussain painting a child`s play by comparison. And yet, no action has been taken against the Minister. This seems to me to be somewhat of a repeat of the Shah Bano case where Rajiv Gandhi`s caving in to the obscurantists` demands provided the much needed oxygen to the BJP. I wouldn`t be surprised if the BJP leaders who are making indignant statements about the Minister`s statement in public, are celebrating in private, as this is their best potential issue in U.P after the Babri Masjid.

Yes, the majority bigotry and intolerance can lead to a fascist society. But the minority intolerance and refusal to integrate with the mainstream is equally threatening, in my opinion, as it provides the kind of explosive environment in which the Modis of this world thrive.

Re: # 256 nasah
[...yes you want to be a Merlot drunk Muslim....burning the Danish Embassies...all over the world.....right...]

Wrong.....as usual..... those who drink merlot - don`t burn embassies :)

But for sake of argument, let`s assume you are right... how does that make a difference ... in fact that supports my argument all over again - that muslims are stupidly violent and irrational.... anybody who becomes/born a muslim will behave exactly the same way as those emabssy burning crazies......

That once again brings us to the same point from where we started....How do we make Abdul Lungi stop burning stuff and start living normally?....

Do you understand now?.....How many different ways do I have to say the same thing before it gets into your skull?.....

Dear Harish,

I see that after failing to produce a proper counter-argument you are here extolling Gandhi, the racist casteist hindu bigot, by indulging in tokenism...

Ofcourse Muslims are only good as long as they read Geeta every morning (Kalam), get wickets for India (Irfan- man he is the only cool guy on this list) and declare openly that Mecca is a stupid place (Shahrukh Khan)... but unless they do that - they are bad Muslims. Read Mahmood Mamdani`s ``Good Muslim Bad Muslim``... he is an Indian and Mira Nair`s husband.

Meanwhile a non-practising Agha Khani Muslim like Farzana Versey who is loyal to the Indian constitution and confident of her Indian identity is an evil Islamic fundamentalist and a communalist because she speaks against the majority in her country.

And so we go in circles... never learning from history.

Ram, Ramu, Sham, Shamu, Jesus, John, Mary...................all have been used to name pets...............only the frustrated mullahs need to rake such issues...........................and on the top of it they get to collect Rs 51 CRORES and keep it?!!!!WOW!!

These rascal mullahs know how to take the gullible ummah for a ride....................

It is time some journalist atleast exposed these mullahs on camera...........

Mustafa is a stupid name for a dog. ``Furkhan`` is much better!

#252 by rsridhar

[I just wish all muslims had packed their bags and left for Pakistan during Partition.]

Yaar Sridhar are you even thinking when you`re typing? IMs have as much a place in India as Hindus have. If Muslims were asked to leave India, what would be the difference between Jinnah`s Pakistan and Gandhi`s India? Would India have commanded the same respect as it does now? Would we have not missed folks like Abdul Kalam, Irfan Pathan, Sharukh Khan, and our own nasah and ballukhan? They are India`s true assets and any nation would be proud to have them as citizens.

Re: # 254

``doctor sridhar -- its a dastardly thing to say for a man of your education and upbringing......shame on you....! ``

I would protest and state that those who suggest that the IM-s should leave their motherland should first return to their `motherland` and do something for it before suggesting nazi type final solutions.......................

On a different note, I would certainly beg to differ on FV-s parody on Hussain...........I think Hussain is professionally a very sauve painter - and he should be if he has to pander to a market.............in the past most of the successful painters catered to their elite client market .......whether it was the vatican or Akbar the great emperor..........most of them have been paens to religion of the elites................including those who practice Calligraphy.........the issues would require a longer discussion here...............and should include a discussion on Raza`s Tantric paintings as well....................

Will the Indian Muslims stop rioting and creating bodily harm to Indian Hindus if the Danes promise not to publish any more cartoons? God forbid if they do publish more, are the Maulanas and Abdul lungis going to wage their Jihad in India ? Are they going to go on venting their venom till another Gujarat is provoked?

``Are you kidding me?.....did you even read my post?...``(mohar)

yes I did -- yes you want to be a Merlot drunk Muslim....burning the Danish Embassies...all over the world.....right.....:)

Re: # 253 nasah

Are you kidding me?.....did you even read my post?.....

``I just wish all muslims had packed their bags and left for Pakistan during Partition.
(Sridhar)

doctor sridhar -- its a dastardly thing to say for a man of your education and upbringing......shame on you....!

man this Chowk is swarming with emotionally unstable literate and illiterate extremists...good heavens.

``Re: # 240 nasah
.... I know your heart is in the right place``.(mohar)

mohar -- I don`t know if my heart is in the right place only you can tell me -- but may I ask: Is YOUR heart in the right place?

.... so much anger so much venom -- so much generalization -- man what a way to live....in your black and white world -- no gray.....no color

you did not answer my question: what would YOU have done had YOU been a Muslim...

my suspicion is -- that you would have been heading the mob that would have been burning the Danish embassies.....all over the world.

re:#238 by mohar11
It all sounds so scary. I just wish all muslims had packed their bags and left for Pakistan during Partition.
Sridhar

re: sadna`s post
(Instead of acknowledging this - that the Indian intelligensia did support M F Husain over the Hindu nude depictions and respects Muslims` religious sentiments much more than it respects `Hindu` sentiments, what does FV do? She singles out the Hindu intelligensia to call intolerant and accuses it of practicing deception in its acceptance of M F Husain. This is called damned if you don`t and damned if you do.)
Well said.
As i have already said, Farzana bibi is janus-faced. She has an Islamic face for Pakis and other muslims and a secular face for the Indians.
Sridhar

re: Temples of Khajaraho
Go to this link and enjoy the erotic sculptures of Khajraho.
Sculptures like


And this:


And this:


excerpts:
(It is a wondrous world with multi-dimensions of life, though all leading only to its glowing aspect, which abounds in beauty, enjoyment of youth and attainment of love as its ultimate. Khajuraho temples, even as they survive, are so full of this glowing aspect of life that flesh itself discovers its inspiration in stone. In their power to move the senses and mind these temples are unique. They have that quality which takes the viewer into the realms of transcendental delight - parmananda, the ultimate bliss of Indian philosophy of life. Aesthetic totality, power to sublimate - to lead from material base to the highest plain of serenity, is the strength of these temples, and this they discover in love which is their prime theme and concern.)
Sridhar

re:#243 by arjun_m
Koirala should rename her dog as Mohammad and release the dog out on the streets. The dog would probably do what Md did: go on a running spree, biting everyone on the way.
What utter non-sense!
And muslims think they do not follow symbolism!
Sridhar

#230 sadna
Visit (sepia mutiny).
Let me tell you one and last time, firmly.

I CONDEMN any kind of VIOLENCE in any form. No matter, where, when and whom?
Yes, I believe BLASPHEMY is also an ACT of VIOLENCE which PROVOKES more VIOLENCE. So, NiB the evil in the ROOT. My message is clear with , Live and let live. To you your belief, to me mine. Neither I disrespect your`s, nor do you mine. We don`t owe eachother any apologies. You go your way, I go mine. Yes, if, there is a hope of understanding other`s views with intellectual honesty with out twisting other`s through creeks, that is the way, intellectual discourse should be. At least from my perspective. If, we will care for our retrospectiveness , only then will be able to handle prospective non biased tolerant subcontinent. Thank you.
PS:- FV is a freelancer writer, but, she is not 100% free of error.So, do we! So, FV is trying her best to answer your all false accusations, but, you are unable to adapt flexibility even a lil bit. Just think about it.

#236 rsridhar
Arright, I got you. You are right. I am wrong. Happy.

Re: # 244
[....[Arvind Sarvankar to Koirala’s residence for verification, they discovered that she did not have a dog. ]

nasah - just read that story..... the behaviour of the islamic freaks....I mean, come on, where is the outrage?....what`s it going to take?.....

I just got back here, so there are some quick loose ends to tie.

#all
Just for clarification, the use of the term “foolish web site” by me earlier to refer to this website should not be viewed in negative terms – it only meant that I consider the individuals concerned a bit naïve/innocent. In the same vein, the use of rhetorical terms like “lap dogs”should not be taken at its literal face value! And for what it is worth, I do feel sure that the chief editor is working very hard!

But I also stand by what I earlier told Mr. Tahmed regarding the built-in mathematical bias of the “interact index” rating system – and its absolute analogy to an institutionalized “caste” system put in place by the chowk management for who knows what but perhaps justifiably suspect reasons! Nobody (“technical” or otherwise) has been able to come up with a counterpoint to that.

#225 Manto
I think the two of you are old “pals,” I won’t dare to come in-between! You already know what I have told you about your line of thinking. Also, in fairness, I have never seen Ms. Sadna use openly abusive terms – I am unsure about you.

#223 Jang
[…can you write shorter posts (or may be summary points separate?)....]
You want to take all the fun out for me, don’t you? No deal. You think I write the words – or do the words write themselves using me? Go figure.

Re: # 240 nasah

Except for you, of course :).... I know your heart is in the right place - even though you fail to stand up to islamist freaks like FV because of your misguided appreciation for what you call ``contrarian``.....

Any case - there are quite a few example of what individual Muslims should do today, at least at a personal level.... one example is hamdim... If I were a muslim - I would probably be somebody like him - laugh at old Mo, drink merlot and never pray more than twice a year and never fast more than few hours..... I mean that`s what I do now....

At a community level - my goal would be to push islam into a personal space, completely and permanently.....just like what other secular societies have done...... I will tell the Abdul Lungi to shut up and work hard - too much Allah isn`t good for him......I will take the examples of past Hindu reformers and would do exactly what they have done for hindu society..... work for a reformation from ground up.....I mean, if the caste-ridden ossified hinuds can be reformed into secular society - why can`t muslims be reformed..?..

I mean, it isn`t that complicated an issue really....

but wait...it gets better..


But when the D N Nagar division sent API Arvind Sarvankar to Koirala’s residence for verification, they discovered that she did not have a dog.

“This is not the only issue. Koirala is a Nepali citizen. So how can she purchase a flat in her name? I will be filing a suit against her and also take out a morcha to protest both the issues. She has to apologise to our community or face the consequences,” added Furkhan.

From FV`s former tabloid..

Police guard Koirala, her cats

Bollywood actress Manisha Koirala and her Persian cats Mischief and Morgan are under police protection after her dog’s name sparked protests among Muslim fundamentalists.

Members of the community lodged a complaint at Versova police station saying that the dog’s name, Mustafa, was same as that of their spiritual head and had to be withdrawn immediately.

Fearing protest rallies, the police had beefed up security near Koirala’s Beachwood Tower residence on Yari Road. There are now 12 policemen guarding her building.

Since two days, the actress is believed to have been receiving threat calls regarding her pet dog. Strangely, the actress said, she did not have a dog.

Speaking to Mid Day, general secretary of Congress, Sheikh Furkhan, who led a 50-odd mob to Versova police station, said the actress is lying.

“Five neighbours in Beachwood Tower have seen Koirala take the pet dog for a stroll. They also confirmed that the canine had the same name as our religious leader,” fumed Furkhan.

Mohar miaN -- lemme me ask you one `rhetorical` question -- suppose if you were -- Bhagwan forbid -- a Muslim today -- what would YOU have done?.......:)

arjun_m, mohar11
Keep in mind that it is most likely that Indian Muslims think the same as other Indians on many issues so don`t really need a separate `Muslim` leadership to speak for them as such. Just like the diversity in views wrt any issue among Hindus, a similar diversity of views is likely to exist among Muslims.

It is in issues which affect only Indian Muslims that they get shortchanged by the `leaders` who rise up to speak for them.

``That`s the real tragedy of the muslims everywhere and in India particular.... there is no one to stand up for the rational thinking....no one to call spade a spade...``(Mohar miaN)

no one......:)

#234 by sadna on February 21, 2006 8:01am PT


1. That Hindus are intolerant but Muslims don`t merit a mention


Intolerance is to be expected from the hindoos...muslims have a special status..their rights to not have their feelings hurt shall be protected at all costs..if they don`t want a common civil code, that`s fine..if they care more about Islamist causes than their own well being as Indian citizens, that`s fine too...if they want to protest against Dubya`s visit because his policies hurt their muslim bros in iraq or wherever, that`s fine too..

there`s one standard for muslims, and one for everyone else..

Re: # 237

She will - as soon as she finds a hindu conspiracy angle somewhere.... Like they say - you can take a man out of the slum but it`s hard to take the slum out of the man..... An islamist is an islamist - even when sipping expensive coffee in the five-star hotel..... even when she is the editor of a liberal online magazine.....

That`s the real tragedy of the muslims everywhere and in India particular.... there is no one to stand up for the rational thinking....no one to call spade a spade....no one to teach the Abdul Fool out there making a mess for himself that cartoons are least of his problems.... the muslim ``civil society`` has sold itself out to all sorts of charlatans and busy-bodies - mullahs, closet-mullahs, islamists and plain-old paranoid fools......

Abdul Lungi is out burning hotels, temples, shops..... sharia court is out to issue fatwas on all and sundry......Haj minister is out to behead people - but our lady here is crying wolf over hindu conspiracy.....

Ah well.....

re:#224 by Mantolives
I dare Farzana bibi to speak out against the violence following Danish cartoons. I dare her to speak out against the seperate shariat laws, against the fatwas that Qazis in India issue (with no consequence of course).
The problem is: as a muslim she should be speaking about the problem of muslims and she does not do that.
Sridhar

re:#222 by Zeena
Somebody else posted the same article in another forum.
This is from a right wing propaganda site.
Nobody is impressed.
All these guys can do is to burn some more pictures or galleries.
Like most Pakis, these guys are also pathetic.
Sridhar

Corr:
And whether Hindus commonly worship their goddesses in full nudity or in poses of sexual intercourse is not relevant enough to mention by FV. For your information these are goddesses whose pictures people keep at home in their puja rooms and worship regularly. So some may not object, but some might and objections can not be straightaway ascribed to intolerance.

PS to my #230/231

Instead of being led by mobs, we need the intelligensia to lead us to a just solution to the problem of respecting religious sentiments and freedom of expression both in a multi-religious society.


What sort of `intelligensia` takes cover behind the following arguments to avoid saying anything about Muslim intolerance while saying everything possible about Hindu intolerance.


1. That Hindus are intolerant but Muslims don`t merit a mention when the Hindu organisations protesting Husain sought redress through the legal system instead of indulging in mob violence straightaway like the Muslim mob in Mumbra did on February 5 ?


2. That Hindu reaction to sexualization of religious figures is bogus because in temple sculptures, the goddesses are not fully clothed and elsewhere other figures( not the same goddesses btw) indulge in sex.

I personally feel Husain`s paintings form a continuum with temple sculptures of different styles and antiquity, the difference being that the goddesses he drew are not traditionally sexualised to the extent he did. Kali perhaps but then M F Husain didn`t paint Kali.

And whether Hindus commonly worship their goddesses in full nudity or in poses of sexual intercourse is not relevant enough to mention. These are goddesses whose pictures people keep at home in their puja rooms and worship regularly. So some may not object, but some might.

But the argument offered is that Hindus must see whom they worship in the nude or be labelled intolerant; Muslims can`t stand to see any figures drawn at all but don`t merit a mention.

3. Worshipping is nothing but going overboard over mythology for Hindus.Religious sentiment is thus bogus in Hindus hence it is meaningless to claim to be hurt. Muslims` going overboard over religion and their claims of being hurt are irrelevant to the issue of tolerance.

I happen to agree that in India, society is getting much more preoccupied than before with religious practice and public display of it-but this is true for Hindus and Muslims both.

I remember reading a description by a Pakistani Dr Israr Ahmed praising the large scale of the 10-day Islamic conference that he attended in Mumbai complete with large projection screens whose daily rent he said ran into lakhs of rupees. Why single out Hindus only for going overboard over ``mythology``, when it is obvious to all that it is not Hindus only?


4. Any Hindu acceptance of nude goddesses is in any case bogus because M F Husain painted them under Hindu pressure to Hinduise and Hindu acceptance was only meant to deceive. An innovative argument if there was ever one.

So refusal of Muslims to accept any figures is not intolerance worth the mention, while the Hindus who accept paintings of nude goddesses are only trying to hide their intolerance. Not only that a 3000 year old living religious and artistic tradition of goddesses must be jettisoned entirely from Indian art before Hindus can be let off from the charge of enforcing Hinduisation.


5. The article Zeena posted said
`The Bajrang Dal was probably restrained by the BJP because of Husain’s high profile:

By 1955 he was one of the leading artists in India and had been awarded the Padma Shri. He was a special invitee along with Pablo Picasso at the Sao Paulo Biennial in 1971… Husain was awarded the Padma Bhushan in 1973, the Padma Vibhushan in 1989 and was nominated to the Rajya Sabha in 1986.

He was also well supported by India’s intelligentsia, and it didn’t make sense for the BJP to let this go too far. `



No Indian artist who drew or wrote anything about Muslim religious icons and faced anger for insulting Muslim religious sentiment would ever get the support of the said Indian intelligensia as M F Husain got.

Instead of acknowledging this - that the Indian intelligensia did support M F Husain over the Hindu nude depictions and respects Muslims` religious sentiments much more than it respects `Hindu` sentiments, what does FV do? She singles out the Hindu intelligensia to call intolerant and accuses it of practicing deception in its acceptance of M F Husain. This is called damned if you don`t and damned if you do.

After communalising the Indian intelligensia, however, she doesn`t find the Muslim intelligensia worthy of being singled out in similar fashion nor is its stance on such issues(if such a stance exists) considered relevant to the issue, That M F Husain was forced to withdraw a song from his movie because of protests by Muslims is not worthy of mention even in this context.


India is never going to become a more tolerant society if intelligensia tries to inviegle the general public with such a selectively blind half-assed ranting about tolerance/intolerance.

In India Hindus and Muslims come from the same society living side by side in the same neighbourhoods. You can`t tell the Hindus only that whatever they do, they are intolerant from top to bottom and need to beat themselves up about it while you also keep silent about the Muslims going on rampage simultaneously.

You can do it(as FV is doing here) but it is not going to work. All sections of society have to march together and maintaining such a outrageous double standard is impossible on the ground.

BJ sirjee, one request, can you write shorter posts (or may be summary points separate?). i am having difficulty in following the jist..thanks.

Ferzana, your 150 seems to contain questions which are rhetorical and dont really need any answers, and that is perhaps why none showed up.

One point is interesting.

Just because you claim for ``equal-opportunity`` basher certificate has two problems. One is that of quantity, an overwhelming campaign of villification, consisting of several articles criticising majority community starting from malicious intent in green tiles in bathrooms to buying or supporting MG Hussain compared a a token article critical of ``your own`` community. Irrespective of validity of some of the criticism (and some IMO has been pathalogically far-fetched), sheer volume makes your writings require inspection for mal-intent. ( we will leave articles with soft-corner for islamic jihadi methods in a separate category).

Second problem is, balance is not sufficient condition for unreasonable accusations (such as squeezing by majority community due to long lines for ganapati drink-fest).

Anyways, since you have declared your last post to be last, no questions. However since you wanted answers for #150, this is my view.

HP cool cards.

#228 by FarzanaVersey on February 21, 2006 4:44am PT


It isn’t just the interactors who can claim not to have sacred cows; the writer has that privilege too.


And who exactly is denying you your right to be an apologists for OBL or comparing OBL to Aun Sang Su Ki?

Corr:

Well, for your information which FV will never give you, in India Muslim mobs indulging in riots do decide what should be published about Islam. #171 is an example. Should that privilege be only for Muslim mobs but not Hindu mobs.

Zeena
Thanks for posting the article in #222. Can you provide the weblink to it?

``IN the October 11, 1996 incident, a group of Bajrang Dal activists forced their way into the Herwitz Gallery in Ahmedabad’s Husain-Doshi gufa, the well-known art complex. Armed with tridents and wearing saffron scarves, they intimidated a lone guard and destroyed about 23 tapestry items and 28 paintings which were on display there. The work destroyed included Husain’s series on Hanuman, a depiction of the Last Supper and the famous Madhuri Dixit series.``

Not only this was a grievous violation of MF Husain`s rights, we all know what happened in Ahmedabad merely 6 years later. It shows the danger of letting the violence of the mob dictate to the larger society what is right and what is not.

Are you arguing, Zeena, that like Hindu mobs, Muslim mobs indulging in riots too must not be allowed to dictate what should be published about Mohammad or Islam or must they be allowed to dictate?

Well, for your information which FV will never give you, in India Muslim mobs indulging in riots do decide what should be published about Islam. #193 is an example. Should that privilege be only for Muslim mobs but not Hindu mobs ?

BJKumar...

Nothing Sadna ever says should be taken literally or as the truth.
That much is true.