A Stretch of Analogy: National Deterrence to Individual Deterrence

behram writes

<<< Please continue the dialogue. >>>

I don`t see the point. Do your research, and if you come up with something that supports your hypothesis that the Arabs are looting Pakistan and not the institutions like the IMF/WB who hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt, let us in on the info. Until then, all your rants are mere distraction from real issues and I do not want to argue meaninglessly on anything.

Re: # 15 by masadi on June 1, 2006 8:46pm PT

Dear masadi:

{Behram is thoroughly confused about what he is alleging.}

No masadi, I am not confused at all, and I am not alleging anything. I have a very focused thinking regarding who are the new owners of all the Pakistani assets. Why is Pakistan not publishing the names of the owners of Pakistani assets? It is just a simple question, but there are people like you, who use weapons of mass deflection in articulating a totally different subject.

Once again, quit using your double speak, and be honest about your values. You must be bound by your morals. Are you not?

{Privatization was not forced on Pakistan by the Arabs.}

Who forced what on whom is not the discussion. The robbers of Pakistan are selling Pakistani assets in broad daylight and the modern day thieves are the Arabs. Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that? or refute that?

{ The consortium of IMF, WB, ADB are the ones that hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt and they are the ones that force privatization and selling of assets, as part of their structural adjustment. }

Is this how Pakistanis practice? Sell their assets to the lowest bidder? and that also to the Arabs. Wasn`t selling Pakistani women enough to the Shaikhs of the middle east?

{He wants me to support privatization when the American corporations due the plunder and condemn it when a Saudi holding company, that has as its parterns GM, Shell and Pepsico buys KESC, that is not going to happen.}

Of course that is not going to happen, because you can not come up with any other new authentic jibberish story that you continuously promote on these boards.

{I am against all privatization where workers are laid off and profits drained from the host country, where profit is of greater consequence than needs of people.}

And I have never once suggested that Pakistani privatization is the issue. Who are the owners of Pakistani assets? And why are the Arabs buying Pakistan?

Just remain focused.

{ I am not concerned about the ethnicity of the persons doing the plundering.}

And I am. Pakistanis must be enlightened that the Arabs are screwing Pakistan and stealing the national assets at throw away prices. Pretty soon, the Punjabis slaves would be working in all those middle east areas.

{Like his rant against the corporations while supporting the US political establishment that is tucked away in the pockets of the corporate elite, his rant against the Arabs is similar BS.}

No, masadi. My rants are not BS at all. I am and will continue to expose thosw who are robbing Pakistan?

Please continue the dialogue.

Respectfully submitted,

Behram is thoroughly confused about what he is alleging. Privatization was not forced on Pakistan by the Arabs. The consortium of IMF, WB, ADB are the ones that hold the vast majority of Pakistan`s debt and they are the ones that force privatization and selling of assets, as part of their structural adjustment. The Arab elite, fully subordinate to the US elite are a tiny part of this global capitalist endeavour of looting third world countries, indeed they are looting their own countries much more than any looting of Pakistan by them, just look at the percent of GDP the Saudi`s spend on defense, year in and year out.

He wants me to support privatization when the American corporations due the plunder and condemn it when a Saudi holding company, that has as its parterns GM, Shell and Pepsico buys KESC, that is not going to happen. I am against all privatization where workers are laid off and profits drained from the host country, where profit is of greater consequence than needs of people. I am not concerned about the ethnicity of the persons doing the plundering. Like his rant against the corporations while supporting the US political establishment that is tucked away in the pockets of the corporate elite, his rant against the Arabs is similar BS.

behram1 #10

`` On the onset, let me pre-empt your theory and acknowledge that I do have an axe to grind against the Arabs. So?

Now, the main issue is still left on the table. Who is stealing Pakistan`s assets? Not the world` asset or any other country`s assets, but Pakistan`s assets. So, please remain focused and articulate your views on this subject only. ``

Behram has a point. Were Pakistanis given the chance to bid on the sale of those assets ? Do I get the feeling that the sale of these assets to Saudi/UAE entities have something to do with Shaukat Aziz being the Vice President of Private Banking for Citicorp ? To be fair to Pakistanis Indian businessmen do not get sweet heart deals offered to some MNCs. I would like the electricity contract Enron got on the Dhabol plant. I will be rich !!!

`` Not really. My posts for the past several days has been that Pakistan has 43% of its GDP tied up in Foreign Loans. Who has bought all these assets? Why have they not published names of the actual owners of those properties that has been sold inside Pakistan? Heck, when something is sold in the US, almost everyone gets to know who has bought what. ``

Foreign loans can be given to Pakistani state, Pakistani state owned companies and private Pakistani companies. A lot has been researched on indebtedness of Third World states. Not much work has been done on foreign loans borrowed by private companies. A lot of South East Asian businessmen were hit hard by 1998 East Asian crisis. It is a nice area for research. The Pakistani state has only $35 billion in debt. The remaining debt has to belong to private entities or state owned companies.

`` {Singling out Arabs, small time players in the world capitalist endeavour of privitazation}

In effect you are accepting the premise that Arabs are players...small or large is irrelevant in this discussion. ``

I would not single out Arabs. But Gulf Arabs are huge players in the global capital markets. A lot of Arab wealth was used to purchase shares when the Dow was 1000.

Re:#11 by masadi on May 31, 2006 11:35pm PT

Dear masadi:

There you go, once again, not placing the blame where the actual blame should be placed. You have no idea (neither do I) who has bought all these assets of Pakistan. Frankly, I was identifying the robbery of Pakistan in broad daylight. Pakistan is a country whose 43% of the GDP is tied up with foreign loans comes out glaring in The Economist (actually, it is one of the highest of any country in that list).

{Behram: why your arguments are so prepostrous is because you let your bigotry guide your claims.}

Let me challenge you to the max to open your mind. Arabs are robbing Pakistan and you must be given an opportunity to see it. Whether, the bigger picture is different is quite irrelevant at the moment. You will not be allowed to deflect this moment and this thought and this opinion.

{I already answered your allegation regarding Pakistan`s external debt.}

No, you have not, and you never do.

{I know that the majority of it is held by non-Arab institutions.}

Majority of what is held by non-Arab institutions? My question has been about the buyers of these latest assets of Pakistan? Why are Pakistani leadership constantly in the middle east? And why are the middle eastern Arabs constantly in Pakistan?

If this is not the huge money-laundering scheme by the Arabs, then what is?

{Now, if you want me to do your homework by spending time researching an exact breakdown, that is not my concern, }

Well, you should make it your concern, if you have a desire to be authentic in your comments. You have a moral duty towards me to be honest and answer only what is correct. When you answer in a convoluted way then it just shows that you are not honest.

All you had to do is refute that no Arab money is found in these assets. But, you have compared two types of robbery... one, those of Arab money, which might be small; with the huge IMF and WB robbery.

{neither do I view the case of Pakistan in isolation to the rest of the developing world, in which the Arabs are a victim not the cause. }

So now you are justifying the theivery of the Arabs of Pakistani assets. O! how impressive that thought is. This poor highway robber is raping a third world country, because there is a bigger and bolder rapist around the corner.

Two wrongs does not make a right. Or does it?

My dear masadi, a thief is still a thief, and Arabs are buying Pakistani assets in dirt cheap prices.

---

Re#12 by sanjay on May 31, 2006 11:58pm PT

Dear Sanjay:

{Though I am not very sure on the subject, but just give a thought whether the Arab Money pouring in Pakistan is really ``Arab`` money or its Pakistani Black Money coming into the country via Arabia as white money.

My suspicion is it is Pakistani Money and not Arab Money. But just try to find out and comment. }

You are probably right. However, I constantly do see an Arab face to these asset buyers.

Frankly, I just want to see which entity is buying up these assets, and expose them to whoever cares. It just behoves an enlightened mind how some people would use weapons of mass deflection to deflect the actual buyers names and identities.

Just see the enormous robbery that is happening in broad daylight. Pakistan is suppossedly getting 43% of its loan amount from IMF and WB (all these years of unpaid debt). Yet, when it sells its assets the new buyers are Arabs. So who and/or what is going to repay Pakistan`s debt?

And this probably has been going on for all these 60 years of Pakistan`s existence. I am just amazed at the press in Pakistan in not exposing all what is happening in the financial world of Pakistan.

Why?

Respectfully submitted,

BEHRAM1

Though I am not very sure on the subject, but just give a thought whether the Arab Money pouring in Pakistan is really ``Arab`` money or its Pakistani Black Money coming into the country via Arabia as white money.

My suspicion is it is Pakistani Money and not Arab Money. But just try to find out and comment.

Behram: why your arguments are so prepostrous is because you let your bigotry guide your claims. I already answered your allegation regarding Pakistan`s external debt. I know that the majority of it is held by non-Arab institutions. Now, if you want me to do your homework by spending time researching an exact breakdown, that is not my concern, neither do I view the case of Pakistan in isolation to the rest of the developing world, in which the Arabs are a victim not the cause.

Re: # 8 by masadi on May 31, 2006 8:45pm PT

Dear masadi:

On the onset, let me pre-empt your theory and acknowledge that I do have an axe to grind against the Arabs. So?

Now, the main issue is still left on the table. Who is stealing Pakistan`s assets? Not the world` asset or any other country`s assets, but Pakistan`s assets. So, please remain focused and articulate your views on this subject only.

{Your initial post referred to external debt and interest payment, not purchase of assets. }

Not really. My posts for the past several days has been that Pakistan has 43% of its GDP tied up in Foreign Loans. Who has bought all these assets? Why have they not published names of the actual owners of those properties that has been sold inside Pakistan? Heck, when something is sold in the US, almost everyone gets to know who has bought what.

{The mass deflection is on your part. } No, masadi, you are an expert in this theory of mass deflection, and you know that. And, you do not have a dime`s worth of authenticity when you resort to such tactics.

{Singling out Arabs, small time players in the world capitalist endeavour of privitazation}

In effect you are accepting the premise that Arabs are players...small or large is irrelevant in this discussion.

{ forced upon third world nations by structural adjustment and blaming them for the sum total of the looting of Pakistan, when their own nations are neatly tucked away in America`s pockets, shows hypocrisy and bigotry.}

And here is where I accuse you of double speak. Do you get that?

Maybe, eh!

Repsectfully submitted,

Re:#7 by bbabu on May 31, 2006 7:55pm PT

Thank you for the response.

The Economist mentions that Pakistan`s Foreign Debt is 43% of the GDP. PM Shaukat Aziz stated that Pakistan has a $120B economy. So, in my estimation Pakistan`s Total Debt should be around $50B.

In any case, I would take your number {Pakistan`s total debt is $35 billion - some of it is at low interest. } of $35B, with very low interest payment (usually interest on these loans are around less than 1%)

{I doubt Pakistanis are paying $35 billion in interest and principal payments.} Agreed, these are just outstanding loans on Pakistan, which they have to payoff someday. But as is normal with countries like Pakistan, it is left for future generations to worry about the loans (or theivery) of previous leadership.

{I doubt Pakistan is paying 4-5 billion dollars now. } Agreed. Still more loan remaining for future generation.

{Importing 100+ million barrels of petroluem should cost $7 billion. That is money that is flowing into coffers of Arab states. Profit repatriation on lot of the Arab owned businesses in Pakistan should be a few billion at best. } Agreed.

You mention Profit, which is a totally different variable than ownership.

But the actual asset that has been sold is still owned by the Arabs which is on the ground in Pakistan.

As long people understand that assets of Pakistan is stolen by the Arabs, and not by some western world country. Yes, some loan money might have been extended by IMF and WB. But, most of the gripes that emanate from the anti-western lobby is that Pakistan is being robbed by the west. Actually, it is the Pakistani leadership that have constantly robbed the country of its national assets and have their favorite whipping case against the west.

We must be honest and identify who the thieves of Pakistan has always been. Recently, it has been the barrons of oil, and those are the Arabs.

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes <<< Here you go with your weapons of mass deflection tactics. Let us just complete one thought at a time and then maybe it will dawn on you how the Arabs are robbing Pakistan. >>>

Your initial post referred to external debt and interest payment, not purchase of assets. The mass deflection is on your part. Singling out Arabs, small time players in the world capitalist endeavour of privitazation forced upon third world nations by structural adjustment and blaming them for the sum total of the looting of Pakistan, when their own nations are neatly tucked away in America`s pockets, shows hypocrisy and bigotry. You have an axe to grind against the Arabs and no concern for Pakistan.

behram1 #4

`` It is clearly understood by the people of Pakistan, that the Arabs are looting the national assets of Pakistan at dirt cheap prices. No wonder Pakistan`s foreign debt is 43% of the GDP. As we were told Pakistan has a $120B economy, and by taking away $50B for payments to foreigner`s debt, Pakistan is left with $70B economy with 160 million people.

What should we assume the actual productivity of these people?

Respectfully submitted, ``

Pakistan`s total debt is $35 billion - some of it is at low interest. I doubt Pakistanis are paying $35 billion in interest and principal payments. I doubt Pakistan is paying 4-5 billion dollars now. Importing 100+ million barrels of petroluem should cost $7 billion. That is money that is flowing into coffers of Arab states. Profit repatriation on lot of the Arab owned businesses in Pakistan should be a few billion at best.

Re: #5 by masadi on May 31, 2006 8:41am PT

{Care to specify how the Arabs are responsible for this looting}

Sure, it will be my pleasure to expose the sell out of Pakistan`s assets to the Arabs. As far as I know, the Telecom Industry has been bought out by a consortium from UAE. Also, KESC was bought by a private company from the middle east. Also, we have found out from other boards that a private equity firm from the middle east is expected to invest $1B in Pakistan`s infrastructure. Others have explained how these private equity firms operate.

Do you also need further clarification? If so, then please post all the selling of assets that has happened in the last 10 years and find out for yourself, who the buyers are.


Here you go with your double speak, when you write

{The Arabs are neatly tucked away in the dirty sections of America`s pockets, so I do not understand how you are trying to absolve their robbery by invoking the Arabs. }

In effect are you, then, accepting that the Arabs are buying Pakistan`s assets?


{The debt chokehold has been placed by the developed countries on the developing world, it is not only Pakistan`s problem, or a problem caused by Arabs. It is a neo-colonial mechanism of polite robbery and little else, as usualy the US elite are in the driving seat. }

Here you go with your weapons of mass deflection tactics. Let us just complete one thought at a time and then maybe it will dawn on you how the Arabs are robbing Pakistan.

Respectfully submitted,

Care to specify how the Arabs are responsible for this looting when neither the IMF nor the WB of the ADB are Arab institutions which hold most of Pakistan`s debt, and the spending that results in this debt is not flowing to the Arab countries as pertroleum products are a fraction of Pakistan`s total imports? The Arabs are neatly tucked away in the dirty sections of America`s pockets, so I do not understand how you are trying to absolve their robbery by invoking the Arabs.

The debt chokehold has been placed by the developed countries on the developing world, it is not only Pakistan`s problem, or a problem caused by Arabs. It is a neo-colonial mechanism of polite robbery and little else, as usualy the US elite are in the driving seat.

Re: # 3 by masadi on May 31, 2006 2:34am PT

Dear masadi:

{.... its military helps the higher barbarians in the US loot the country, ...}

It is clearly understood by the people of Pakistan, that the Arabs are looting the national assets of Pakistan at dirt cheap prices. No wonder Pakistan`s foreign debt is 43% of the GDP. As we were told Pakistan has a $120B economy, and by taking away $50B for payments to foreigner`s debt, Pakistan is left with $70B economy with 160 million people.

What should we assume the actual productivity of these people?

Respectfully submitted,

The author writes <<< So what made Pakistan go nuclear was a fear of survival in an unjust world where jungle rule prevails and flourishes, day by day. There is no escape from aggression unless retaliatory means of balking enemy attack are available >>>

The ``jungle`` exists within Pakistan which threatens the survival of its masses a lot more than any external foe. That is what needs to be taken care of instead of distracting the public by using external foes while the corrupt so-called ``protectors`` of Pakistan, its military helps the higher barbarians in the US loot the country, while keeping it locked in complete subservience to the US. The Pak Army has done more to harm Pakistan than the Indian military. If I was an indian military strategist and wanted to harm Pakistan, I would divert some of the Indian military budget towards bolstering the Pak Army, it will see the end of Pakistan soon. The people of Pakistan need to wake up and understand these shenanigans of this military of which the nuclear issue is the crest.

The authors arguments about crime, deterrence are quite simplistic. Judging from crime rates, and other indicators which some of my articles touch on, the US not a ``civilized`` country, it has the higest rate of incarceration in the world, and the highest levels of gun deaths of any developed country per 100,000 population. The levels of gun ownership are directly related to gun deaths, and murder rates but not to deterrence. Over 80 people die everyday due to gun related causes of which over 50% are suicides in this `civilized` land.