Varanasi Explodes

Ramanujan:

While I share your sentiments, it is unwise to go, hit out at all Muslims or mosques.. We have to pin point why this ``arab imperialist cult`` has so much hatred for all the ``kafirs`` based on their ``cult-leader`s life``, Quran and the relevant Hadiths..

For example point out this fatwa from ``islamweb.net``. to show where all this hatred is coming from.. This is
Fatwa No. : 2860
Fatwa Title : Temples into mosques, mosques into temples


.....
Second, countries established by non-Muslims, and then, Muslims conquered them by force. In such countries, it is Haram to give rise to any place of worship for non-Muslims. As for places of worship that were established before conquest, Muslim scholars have two opinions:


1) All such places are to be destroyed; it is Haram to leave them as they are, since possession of such countries is conveyed to Muslims. So, it becomes Haram to maintain, in such countries, any places that show the banner of disbelief, just as the countries that are established and inhabited by Muslims. Another reason is that possession of places of churches and synagogues is conveyed to Muslims. This means that if we allow non-Muslims to establish their rites of disbelief, then it becomes like selling or renting out those places, and that is Haram. In addition, Allah has legislated Jihad until all kinds of worship are for Allah alone. If we help or allow them to establish their rites of disbelief in such places, then all kinds of worship will be for others, not for Allah.


2) It is permissible to leave places of worship as they are. This opinion is based on the Hadith stated above from Ibn `Abbas . This Hadith reads: ``In a country that was established by non-Muslims, and then, Muslims conquered it, non-Muslims have the rights mentioned in their agreement with Muslims, who are to honor their agreement with non-Muslims. The Muslims have no right to put on non-Muslims a burden greater than they have strength to bear`` .


In the same vein, the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) did not destroy Jewish places of worship after the conquest of Khaibar, but he left them as they were. The Prophet`s (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) companions did not destroy churches after conquering many countries. Such old places of worship exist at the present time.
Umar Ibn `Abdul `Aziz sent his officials the following: `Do not destroy a church or synagogue or a temple of fire worshippers`.


Ibn al-Qayyim said: `The sound judgment concerning the above-stated issue is that the Muslim ruler is authorized to do what is more suitable on behalf of Muslims. So, he can decide to take hold of non-Muslim places of worship or to remove them depending on Muslims` need of such place, paucity of non-Muslims and numerous temples. But, if he finds it is better to leave such places as they are due non-Muslims` need and Muslims` sufficiency, then he has to do so`. This is the superior saying.


Third, countries captured through reconciliation. If an agreement of reconciliation states that Muslims are only entitled to receive Kharaj (land tax) and the land is for non-Muslims or both parties have a truce only, then places of worship of non-Muslims are to be kept safe and non-Muslims can build new ones, since the land is theirs. This last picture of reconciliation was done with Najraan Christians by the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), and he did not stipulate prevention of building a new church or abbey.


On the other hand, if an agreement of reconciliation states that the land is for Muslims and non-Muslims are to pay Jizyah (poll tax), then Muslims, (in case of ability) are to follow the steps of `Umar Ibn al-Khattab (Radiya Allahu Anhu), i.e. to prevent non-Muslims from establishing any church, synagogue or hermitage. In addition, if the agreement does not specify something, then we are to follow `Umar `s way of reconciliation, since it becomes a ruling of Shari`a for all Muslim rulers.


Thus, we have mentioned the general ruling, i.e. when there is a Muslim ruler who leads Muslim armies and manages Muslims` affairs and as long as Muslims have the ability to defend themselves or to wage Jihad. But, if Muslims are weak or there is no an independent Muslim state and entity, or they live as a Muslim minority, then the Muslims` interest should be the criterion. In simple words, if it will be a good advantage for Muslims to destroy non-Muslim places of worship and build new mosques instead of them, then Muslims have to do so.
On the other hand, if such a work may lead to worse actions such as killing and destruction by fire, Muslims have to do nothing. Here, we apply the ruling that states: `Warding off an evil is preferred to getting benefit`.


Allah knows best.

rsridhar: well said (i.e. advising ramanajan concerning his idiocy). by standing up to these losers who seek any excuse to start venting hatreds on chowk (no doubt the result of a miserable childhood) are best told off by ``fellow indians``. i have at times done the same with their equivalent losers in pakistan. works like a charm. throws them start whining about ``
I suggest you address other Chowkies.`` (as pandit hate ramanjan states).

this way one can have a reasonable discussion on chowk sometimes.

Me believes that Mulayam Singh Yadav is to blame, when he retains as Ministers people who in a public forum offer bounties for foreigners. This encourages behaviour that you see in Varanasi.

The root cause of the problem is economy and the Indian secular parties. They encourage and cater to the Mulahs to deliver votes, who in turn suppress their community, which remains ignorant and poor.

It is a fact that majority of the Muslims in India are very poor and thus illterate; and subject to the machinations of the mullahs, just like the poor Hindus or any other poor community that clings to any organization that offers hope, beit religion or the sermons on Friday.


If CPM in Bengal and Kerela, Mulayam in UP were not to pander to the poor muslim and give prominence to the rapidly fascit Mullahs, they would lose elections and would be wiped out as a political party.

The flip-flops of CPM viz aviz the Nuclear position then and now is dictated primarily by its desire to appease the pulpit abusing mullahs. The poor muslim in most likelihood does even know how to spell it. I am not saying that VHP and RSS is the answer. Rather they are a result of a reaction, forced to choose a diametrically opposite stand to differentiate themselves.

A final and a touchy point (which will definitely provoke some interesting verbage and reactions) any religion, which by Karl Marx`s definiion is the opiate of the masses, must evolve along with its people. If it does not, a clash of the ``evolved`` vs the traditional is bound to happen with drastic consequences.

As long as Islam evolved, it was the harbinger of great advances in pretty much all spheres of life. When it transformed into a strict interpretation, it did a disservice to its followers, binding them in a downward spiral of paranoia and hopelessness.

Please note, I refer not to the prophet`s Islam but to the islam of the Mullah and his interpretation.

Serious discussion shall be entertained.

#81 by masanamuthu

[Ramanujan:

While I share your sentiments, it is unwise to go, hit out at all Muslims or mosques.. We have to pin point why this ``arab imperialist cult`` has so much hatred for all the ``kafirs`` based on their ``cult-leader`s life``, Quran and the relevant Hadiths.. ]

masanamuthu,

Pin pointing, pointing out, logically arguing etc. etc. is futile. There will be more bombs in temples, more denials and counter-accusations from islamists and lefty ba$tards, and the cycle will go on.

Somewhere this vicious cycle has to be ended. VERY few Muslims are amenable to reason. The Ummah is what they always cling to.

No more arguing. Let us join the global effort on eradicating this cult of darkness.

Me believes that Mulayam Singh Yadav is to blame, when he retains as Ministers people who in a public forum offer bounties for foreigners. This encourages behaviour that you see in Varanasi.

The root cause of the problem is economy and the Indian secular parties. They encourage and cater to the Mulahs to deliver votes, who in turn suppress their community, which remains ignorant and poor.

It is a fact that majority of the Muslims in India are very poor and thus illterate; and subject to the machinations of the mullahs, just like the poor Hindus or any other poor community that clings to any organization that offers hope, beit religion or the sermons on Friday.


If CPM in Bengal and Kerela, Mulayam in UP were not to pander to the poor muslim and give prominence to the rapidly fascit Mullahs, they would lose elections and would be wiped out as a political party.

The flip-flops of CPM viz aviz the Nuclear position then and now is dictated primarily by its desire to appease the pulpit abusing mullahs. The poor muslim in most likelihood does even know how to spell it. I am not saying that VHP and RSS is the answer. Rather they are a result of a reaction, forced to choose a diametrically opposite stand to differentiate themselves.

A final and a touchy point (which will definitely provoke some interesting verbage and reactions) any religion, which by Karl Marx`s definiion is the opiate of the masses, must evolve along with its people. If it does not, a clash of the ``evolved`` vs the traditional is bound to happen with drastic consequences.

As long as Islam evolved, it was the harbinger of great advances in pretty much all spheres of life. When it transformed into a strict interpretation, it did a disservice to its followers, binding them in a downward spiral of paranoia and hopelessness.

Please note, I refer not to the prophet`s Islam but to the islam of the Mullah and his interpretation.

Serious discussion shall be entertained.

#83 by giani_240

[It is a fact that majority of the Muslims in India are very poor and thus illterate; and subject to the machinations of the mullahs...]

And what about Pakistan? Iran? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Palestine? Egypt? Lebanon? Syria? Indonesia?......

Nope, it is the indoctrination that they recieve all the way from childhood onwards.

I agree with your other points, but not on this one.

#86 Ramanujan,

Have you heard of a rich sucide bomber? Has the millionaire Osama ever volunteered to accept virgins? He is too smart and relies on the poor dumb folk to do his bidding.

All the countries you mentioned are poor. The indcotrination that happens is in the Madrasas and guess who run thems?

Have we ever hear of a ``well educated`` Jihadi?

re:#80 by Ramanujan
I never ever advocated destroying mosques or for that matter any act of violence in retaliation. I have been severe on terrorist organization and on Pakistan with belief that it is the ideology of Pakistan that gives sustainance to such organizations as LeT but there is a difference between what i say and what u advocate.
You are putting a blanket blame on all muslims. That is preposterous.
Learn to differentiate between people and ideologies.
When Gandhiji fought the British, he fought the ideology that said the colonisers were superior and had a right to rule. He did not say all British were enemies. A bad ideology like the one that LeT and others possess has to be fought with a superior ideology. You cannot bring yourself down to their level.
Sridhar

The roots of the terror lie within TNT.......that is why Pakistanis are the biggest proliferators of hate...............Frankly I would like to see US conducting strikes against LeT camps and its idealogues..................carry on precise assasinations like Isreal does.........most of the educated IM-s would certainly come out to cheer against these mullahs going down so that they cannot try to incite communal riots in India...............

Rsridhar...

The problem here is that both you and Ramanujan are staunch gandhians... but you waver sometimes because of your American exposure and try and put a front like Pandit Nehru...

You write : ``When Gandhiji fought the British, he fought the ideology that said the colonisers were superior and had a right to rule. He did not say all British were enemies. A bad ideology like the one that LeT and others possess has to be fought with a superior ideology. You cannot bring yourself down to their level.``

Please do feel free to search some old archives for an American woman Mrs Daugherty`s deposition about how her husband, Mr William Daugherty, was murdered in a conspiracy by Gandhi`s followers ... and how several people including Gandhi and Sarojini Naidu had tried to coerce her not to tell her story to the world (especially the Americans)... this is the grand cover up of the freedom struggle. In that deposition she names Gandhi as responsible for the murder... So apparently not only black people but by 1930s all white people were also the enemies.

Ballu Khan...

Pray tell if the roots of terror lie in TNT ... why every Mullah and his mother in law was always in bed with the terrorists of the Congress Party?

Your simplistic rendering of history is not only problematic. It is fascist - pure and simple.

And just so that we are clear about something...

Is this not the same state where there is an Indian Muslim minister (not from a communal party... not a believer in TNT ... not Jinnah-follower ... not a Pakistan-o-phile ... but from the Samajwadi Party) who offered 52 Crores of Rupees for the murder of the Danish Cartoonist and promised a plane a minute to explode in the US for 100 minutes...

``Your simplistic rendering of history is not only problematic. It is fascist - pure and simple. ``

Pray what is the meaning of bombing places of worship- it is pure incitement to communal elements within opposite communities- this is an art mastered by the practitioners of TNT...............rapid communalists who thrive on incitement ..............Pakistani sympathesizers of this form of communalism like HP represent your generation of Pakistanis................

#87 giani_240,
I feel economic condition and education doesn`t change anything when it comes to extremism. I have read about people who are educated and rich blowing themselves, e.g, entire 9/11 gang. Another one is London school of economics grad Omar. There may be poor uneducated folks who commited these acts. Me thinks, if you take the percentages, the educated rich/middle/lower middle class people might have commited more atrocities than the poor. We are just overlooking the real issue by unfairly saying it is the poor who are doing these things.

The real issue is the Jihadi ideology. Some moderate muslims say that misguided muslims are commiting all the terrorist activities . They say that they are not muslims and the religion they are practicing is not islam. Rarely we see the same moderate Muslim/Muslim groups rise up and excommunicating folks like Osama and co, who are instrumental in killing thousands of people but we see Fatwas condemning Rushdie, Taslima Nasreen and the Danish cartoonists. Moderate muslims have to confront this menace head on, just condemning these acts in media will not do any good.

Ramanujan,
Stop the nonsense. What you are advocating is exactly what is wanted by the group who did this.

Ballu...

Don`t repeat the same old mock tough rhetoric and abuse...

To repeat the question:

#92 by Mantolives on March 7, 2006 8:55pm PT
And just so that we are clear about something...

Is this not the same state where there is an Indian Muslim minister (not from a communal party... not a believer in TNT ... not Jinnah-follower ... not a Pakistan-o-phile ... but from the Samajwadi Party) who offered 52 Crores of Rupees for the murder of the Danish Cartoonist and promised a plane a minute to explode in the US for 100 minutes...

HP was right about your fascism and he is a 100 times more secular, liberal, progressive and non-communal than you can ever be...

``HP was right about your fascism and he is a 100 times more secular, liberal, progressive and non-communal than you can ever be... ``

I would say the same for you

---

Most of the Indians are right on this board about you- you and HP represent the ``hidden`` face of Paksitani terrorism..............the educated Jehadi variety who support the mullahs ideologically on the internet while the jehadi lumpens burn and bomb...............you represent the real support to the Paksitani jehadis and their terrorist infrastructure.................