In the Dying Light

#212

Absolutely.

For those few who don`t already know it, the photo is from Farzana`s gallery published on chowk about a year ago. I have personally found the gallery quite enriching and some of its images have inspired i-logs that I posted last year (but are no more in place now).

In many ways, stereotyping is the mind`s instinctive way of simplyfying things. Everyone does so - even scientists do so - giving it fancy names - but they hold it up for review and keep the possibility in mind that it may need fine-tuning and sometimes wholesale revision. As time passes, most simple people start thinking they have enough data points to construct THE model and start becoming too sure of themselves. At some point, people start throwing away data points which do not fit their pre-conceived models - then the newness starts to fade.

Then people go full-speed throwing ``answers`` instead of asking questions of themselves.

All natural lights die out eventually - as the source dries up - only the light of truth is eternal - and only that light is capable of showing everyone his or her path.

And its dawns are the brightest!

BJ:

You are supposed to give credit for the photograph.

And while everyone is entitled to their illusions, some need to not let their imagination become captive to stereotypes.

The Underdog



What makes a foreigner come to these steps and then assume the lotus position for what seems like an eternity?

I looked at the picture that my surroundings presented and could not move my gaze away. This was a substantial place.

The stone step on which I stood was a thing of substance, and like most such things it was made of hard physical material. There were objects all round – there was a clear sign in Hindi – “Sankatha Ghat”.

A kid who had appointed himself my local interpreter and accompanied me here watched me with an amused look on his face – an embodiment of the innocent if stereotypical native who has simple things on his mind. His young face contrasted sharply with the ageless pile of flat stone blocks which lay nearby.

This ghat was like any of the countless other ghats around – where the ashes get immersed – where the body gets returned to its permanent custodian, the nature – where it all ends – and perhaps also simultaneously begins in some ways. All those dead bodies floating downstream – now mere food for the fish and other lowly creatures of water – all those bodies had been real people at some point in time – people who lived, breathed and experienced lives of their own.

I was also real – with flesh and blood and muscles and also a mind of my own.

The ghat stared back. I stepped down a few steps then stopped. Those steps simply keep going down – till they vanish forever. What makes a foreigner like me come to these steps anyway – knowing fully well that with every step that I take I can only make myself lower and the final step inevitably drowns in that water?

I assumed my position and as I glanced over the lower steps, I could not help wondering about the last few steps. Constant contact with water makes that stone stronger even as a layer of emerald green moss glosses all over it. Without the water there won’t be any moss. But the water did not create the moss – the moss is eternal and needs little water. Yet it has been around for ages – it rarely dries up even in bright daylight and the scorching heat that such daylight can bring.

A lady in green sari pointed her camera at me. She smiled as she got ready to take a picture – the teeth were crooked. There was nothing special about this activity – people come here all the time and they snap shots at will. I wish she had not flashed that camera so directly into my eyes! In backing away during the picture taking, she almost slipped over the emerald green moss and splashed into that water – which she appeared unable or simply too scared to touch.

But the water sustains a lot more than the moss.

The water touches those hardened stones – the stones get soaked – the river water fills up every hollow pore and yet they remain immiscible. Water and stone – the absolute opposites and if one thinks about it, the everlasting adversaries! The stone that contains the water which is always impossible to contain – so all that the stone makes for is just a trivial impediment – the stone that has such a fixed shape and the water that can virtually assume absolutely any shape by simply filling it in – yet without such stones does the water really follow even a course or does it simply follow the topography of land, not to mention the terrain of fate as it simply gets absorbed by it – part of the underground never seen by those who walk on the earth?

What the water finds soft is what absorbs it and takes away its power. And the river is merely a body of water but this river is no ordinary river.

Rivers have sustained cities all around the world and they have sustained whole civilizations – this one certainly has!

People dump everything into it – the best of flowers and the most toxic of products. It is quietly accepting, yet all junk only disintegrates over time – or simply becomes a part of the body, sinking down to the level of sea-weeds – the river’s curing power stays intact – it perhaps only enhances.

It is mercurial. It can loose its way if trapped in the locks of Shiva’s hair, but even then it manages to find its course sooner or later.

It has seasons that are lean and it has seasons that flood but, unlike most of its tributaries, it maintains a steady course.

It takes away all the sins – mostly the sins merely sink deep down. – yet it never gives any of that stuff back – except for occasional on-the-surface splashes when one dumps objects in – and the splashes can leave you only a tiny bit wet – but they do not really hurt!

Who knows how many treasures lie buried under that smoothly flowing surface. Yet there are bones and charred remains – some partially burnt, some turned into ashes, some of them still very fresh. Kings and beggars – they all merge into a single body – reconciled at last in their ultimate futility. The river has seen countless moonlit nights and it has seen days of hot sunshine – for ages – and it remains ageless itself.

As I continued to look, the kid laughed, “sir, you are staring at the lady”.

Most people could sense something extraordinary about the river that flowed behind – yet some just did not think it was deep enough.

We are all entitled to our very own illusions!

(Note: Inspired by the article “In the Dying Light” by Farzana Versey, published on March 8, 2006.)

#206 Farzana
[People ARE like places. Kabhi bass jaatey hai…]

This reminds me of a dialog from an old Hindi movie (I forget the name) in which the late legend Mehmood – my personal favorite – acted

(Mehmood shows up at his father-in-law’s place unexpectedly)

(Enter Mehmood and his father-in-law)

Father-in-law (FIL) (Looking less than happy): How long are you going to stay here?

Mehmood (M) (Nonchalantly): Just a couple of days.

FIL (Perking up): Really, JUST two days?!!!

M (Nonchalantly): Janab, aap mera matlab naheen samjhe. Jindagi chaar dinon ki hoti hai.

(FIL collapses in dismay)

#206, Farzana {``PS: I believe you said somewhere you would not ever comment on my writings?? ``}

Farzana,
``Ever`` is too much of a commitment. I may have said that and I accept the charge of going back on a hasty promise. It`s hard to read good writing and not give the writer her just feedback. Please don`t ask me not to read your material from now on.

I would like to clarify that when I respond to interacts on the article it is as the writer of the piece and not the ``gatekeeper of Chowk``.

No strings attached, letting you roam free are what normal people understand as tongue-in-cheek comments.

No one has to read my ilogs; I mentioned it specifically to a pertinent query. Besides, that was written after this article, so there is no question of having to read that to understand this. The context was different. Never mind...

``No. I talked about imagination. Read before you leap. ``

Yes I do have all the imagination, I need to read your masterpiece. You better calm down your imagination and read my interact properly before you accuse me of ``If you do not believe in a god, then why blame her/him for things?`` Where did I say that?

``btw, I said I did not see dead bodies -- I did not mention Hindu bodies. ``

True, but you would expect dead Hindu bodies in a Hindu
temple not some dead Russian Orthodox christians. And you tell me I have no imagination!!!

`` If you had seen another side, you might have cherished them. But there is no accounting for cynics.``

Another side, another side, is that something intangible again, that loses its intangibility the minute you try to describe it. There is no accounting for masters of doublespeak, who can see this intangible `another side`. They can cherish them to their hearts` content.

``I have been distraught for sometime now and I do not like doing a plug job for my ilogs, but it is there...I am not dead yet.``

You should have mentioned that your Ilogs have to be read and studied before tackling the advanced course of the article instead of some double speak by Budha in the footnote.

``You wouldn`t understand sensitivity because you do not seem to fathom anything that does not hit you with a boulder...``

Is this the standard of interacts you want to uphold on Chowk? Attack my youth, stupidity, lack of sensitivity, lack of imagination, lack of belief in God instead of just answering my questions about your article.

``I understand confessionals usually come with strings attached...I have let you roam free... ``

Are you referring to your power of a gatekeeper on Chowk or your kindness in not reportiong me to Kofi Annan? Remember I roam free in the land of Bush and Cheny and I have to work hard to get to their level.

``If I have to explain the intangibles to you, then they cease to be intangible.``

Absolutely not. Your tangible benefit at a job are your paycheck, benefits of medical and dental plans, retirement plan, 401K etc. The intangible benefits may be to have the satisfaction of making a difference in the world, using the present job as a stepping stone to a more powerful one and gaining the joyful experience of talking to the bright minds of Mannyd, Salim, Zeemaxand BJ all in one sitting.

``And I have decided this line is the most defining one in this piece:``
If you have decided that, it is fine with me. It is your line, very non-touching. Are there some reward committies, where you submit your most defining lines? Good luck.

``For, oftentimes we do not `touch` several `things` for various reasons, and yet we connect.``

Now that we have connected, ET go home.

The cult thing was still gibberish though.

#199 by bjkumar:
{[...being at home in an alien place.]
An ALIEN place?
So what would be a native place?
Is it the place or the people - or is it just people!}

Yes, you can feel alienated even at home, or find your bearings where you do not `belong` in the sense of inhabiting the place.

People ARE like places. Kabhi bass jaatey hai, kabhi gumraah kar detey hai...
- - -
#201 by mannyd:

[Farzana #198: {All imagery, if you have an imagination, is cherishable.}

I do not agree.
Perhaps you meant that all imagery by Farzana is cherishable, because she is Farzana.]

No. I talked about imagination. Read before you leap.

The fact that you recall de Sade`s ``sick mind``, ``mass graves of Jews``, ``charred bodies`` clearly means that you `relate` to these. If you had seen another side, you might have cherished them. But there is no accounting for cynics.

[I have never been to Varanasi and now have no desire at all to look at what you described.]

You don`t have to look at what I looked at...

[However I do appreciate your cleverness in refusing to see dead Hindus and making a simple political statement because you have some image to protect. “Jo dar gaya samjho mar gaya”. Agreed, you have been scared for a while now.]

I have been distraught for sometime now and I do not like doing a plug job for my ilogs, but it is there...I am not dead yet. I wish it were mere cleverness; btw, I said I did not see dead bodies -- I did not mention Hindu bodies.

You wouldn`t understand sensitivity because you do not seem to fathom anything that does not hit you with a boulder...

[Now that you mention the intangibles, pray do tell us what they were. Farzana Bibi, I may grow older but I am not going to get any wiser. This is it. You can blame me for being stupid, but it is your intentional convoluted writing, that is partly to blame too. Let your Yeas be Yeas and Nays be Nays. Please do not talk through both corners of your mouth.]

I do not think you ought to credit my writing for your stupidity. I understand confessionals usually come with strings attached...I have let you roam free...

If I have to explain the intangibles to you, then they cease to be intangible. Unfortunately, there are no clear yeas and nays about these aspects.

[{Got your sarcasm there.}
Farzana Bibi, some people get their sarcasm wherever they can get it, in trash bins, in Varanasi or or or wherever. How is it served to you?]

Medium rare by a white-gloved steward with a sardonic smile.

[{Organised religion is like a water tank; it sustains people with its limited resources for their limited needs. A mystical search is like the ocean -- jo dar gaya samjho mar gaya. Now don`t forget what I cherished...}

Have you ever thought about starting a brand new cult, Parshant Mata Anandmai Farzana Bibi? Even with gibberish like above, you will find plenty of followers in Malibu.]

This has been a back-of-the-mind thing for a while now. You`d be surprised to know that there are a few followers already, not in Malibu but definitely with a malibu.

[What did you really cherish? Spell it out before wagging that fat finger in my face, please. It makes me very very twitchy and blink a lot.]

It was spelled out in some ways in the lines and between the lines, but most of all I cherish that people like you spent a good deal of time and energy over gibberish. It makes the effort all so worthwhile. People getting twitchy and blinking a lot always makes me think of powerful emotions...the fat finger weeps as it types these lines.

And I have decided this line is the most defining one in this piece: ``I had always wanted to touch the Ganga water, but chickened out. The boatmen did, leaving a trail with their fingertips. The skies realised my dilemma and a light drizzle came down on us. The water touched me and met the river. Contact had been made. ``

For, oftentimes we do not `touch` several `things` for various reasons, and yet we connect.
- - -
#200 by Salim_Chauhan:

You have been `enlightened` by another mystical soul here! Take your pick...

I was not a tourist; I am never a `tourist`. Big problem there. But thanks for accepting the ``contrasts`` with equanimity instead of getting twitchy.

PS: I believe you said somewhere you would not ever comment on my writings??

#201 by mannyd

What did you really cherish? Spell it out before wagging that fat finger in my face ..

MannyD Bhra .. before asking this question you must have your own anchor ... :-)

``I had always wanted to touch the Ganga water, but chickened out. The boatmen did, leaving a trail with their fingertips. The skies realised my dilemma and a light drizzle came down on us. The water touched me and met the river. Contact had been made. ``

A very powerful touching article about, well, non-touching the stinky river.)

SAlim Bhai: You are a gentleman and full of Rajput chivalery. Your paycheck may also be on the line. I understand....LOL.

The laughter of the children was totally out of place and uncalled for in a city of Shamshan Ghats, bloated cadavers and corpses.

``They laughed and waved and I laughed and waved back cursing myself for interrupting my goal towards mystical enlightenment.``

Farzana Bibi cursed herself for this unseemly interruption of her goal of seeking nothing and her sarcastic `mystical enlightenment`. She might have cursed the children too, but....

Kulharee #9 : ``Usually people have delayed reaction to something this horrific.

Ideally, Muslims should just stay quiet at such times, or raise hell against those who are responsible. ``

Thanks Kulharee Sahib for cutting through the overgrowth of confusion with a simple common sense statement.

Farzana #198: [All imagery, if you have an imagination, is cherishable.}

I do not agree.
Perhaps you meant that all imagery by Farzana is cherishable, because she is Farzana.
I do not cherish images of Marquis De Sade’s sick mind.
I do not cherish images of mass graves of jews being bull dozed by the allies.
I do not cherish images of charred bodies of Gujrat and Delhi victims.
I do not cherish any of the images of death, you presented of Varanasi. I have never been to Varanasi and now have no desire at all to look at what you described.
Sorry.
However I do appreciate your cleverness in refusing to see dead Hindus and making a simple political statement because you have some image to protect. “Jo dar gaya samjho mar gaya”. Agreed, you have been scared for a while now.

[Your list has conveniently chosen the tangibles; even the tangible may be cherishable down the road...like when you grow old and wisened you might recall a line from here and cherish it!}

Now that you mention the intangibles, pray do tell us what they were. Farzana Bibi, I may grow older but I am not going to get any wiser. This is it. You can blame me for being stupid, but it is your intentional convoluted writing, that is partly to blame too. Let your Yeas be Yeas and Nays be Nays. Please do not talk through both corners of your mouth.

[..!), but the Hajj stampede is different from this case. That happens because people do not follow basic principles of civilized behavior, like walking in a straight line, queuing up, and not pushing and shoving to be the first to stone a devil they do not know. }

Of course Farzana. Moreover we do have to find some human scapegoats instead of blaming the One and only Big Kahuna of the True faith. I am sure this SankatMochan fellow was just some junior flunky in the backward crowded pantheon of Hinduism. He does need to be questioned using third degree methods. It is just a theory, but could it be that the soft state of India and even softer yellow Hindus are just too civilized to deal with the terrorists, what with people stumbling over each other proclaiming how secular and civilized they are.

[Got your sarcasm there. ]
Farzana Bibi, some people get their sarcasm wherever they can get it, in trash bins, in Varanasi or or or wherever. How is it served to you?

[Organised religion is like a water tank; it sustains people with its limited resources for their limited needs. A mystical search is like the ocean -- jo dar gaya samjho mar gaya. Now don`t forget what I cherished...]

Have you ever thought about starting a brand new cult, Parshant Mata Anandmai Farzana Bibi? Even with gibberish like above, you will find plenty of followers in Malibu.

What did you really cherish? Spell it out before wagging that fat finger in my face, please. It makes me very very twitchy and blink a lot.

Farzana, {``The cycle rickshaw swerved dangerously through the water, splashing school kids who were making their way home. How many such kids knew that the person clicking them with a camera was imagining she would find her Nothingness there? They laughed and waved and I laughed and waved back cursing myself for interrupting my goal towards mystical enlightenment.
My mind does not allow me to think of kids dying. ``}

Farzana,
A very touching and sad article about terrorism and how it derails everything we imagine to be peaceful, colorful, playful, comforting, and reassuring. I just loved the contrasts and surprising conclusions that you weaved into a tourist`s memories, while unwilling to accept horrible reality. Superbly written and vividly captivating as it attempts to deny evil while condemning it. Good job.

[...being at home in an alien place.]

An ALIEN place?

So what would be a native place?

Is it the place or the people - or is it just people!

Re: # 195. 196
mannyd:

All imagery, if you have an imagination, is cherishable. Your list has conveniently chosen the tangibles; even the tangible may be cherishable down the road...like when you grow old and wisened you might recall a line from here and cherish it!

[That sankat engulfed the gullible idiots who were there for the mochan of some minor imaginary Sankat in their miserable lives is true poetic justice. A case very similar to that of the Hazis who were trampled to their death recently, just when they renounced and stoned the devil.

Who says Gods do not have a sense of humor?..LOL..]

It must be a very dark sense of humour, then. If you do not believe in a god, then why blame her/him for things?

I do not wish to make any political statement (image ka sawaal hai right now!), but the Haj stampede is different from this case. That happens because people do not follow basic principles of civilised behaviour, like walking in a straight line, queuing up, and not pushing and shoving to be the first to stone a devil they do not know.

[Organized religion is great.]

Got your sarcasm there. Organised religion is like a water tank; it sustains people with its limited resources for their limited needs. A mystical search is like the ocean -- jo dar gaya samjho mar gaya. Now don`t forget what I cherished...
- - -
zeemax (#197):

No problem. But exploring another`s inner world often means being carried with the tide, unless you bring along your own anchor!

#155 by FarzanaVersey

Yes it seems I had completely missed your opening lines. Thanks for clarifying. Remark retracted with apology as being hasty and uncalled for.

I assume my inner world is not being judged here...

Not judged .... explored maybe ... ;-)

One minute, you close your eyes in contemplative prayer asking for a 4.5% raise instead of the usual 2.5% and next minute you are stone cold dead minus a few limbs and people are carrying you home on a Charpoy singing `Ram Nam Satya Hai`.

How about the person who just threw the pebble and shouted `....Akbarrrrrrrr` when about ten thousand hooves reduce him or her to a pink mist like in a Vita mix?

Organized religion is great.

``I do not see those dead bodies. It is like wanting to remember something that one has cherished as it was. I am not denying what happened,..``

I tried to find what was in Varanasi that Farzana Bibi cherished.
1. Paan Pichkari, blood colored on a cream wall.
2. “Nahin, nahin,” they had laughed. “Murdaa hai…” It was the bloated carcass of an animal.
3. They saw the corpses turn blue and unrecognisable.
4. They laughed and waved and I laughed and waved back cursing myself for interrupting my goal towards mystical enlightenment.
5. From where I was, I could see ochre and white robes, people carrying wood and incense, and lots of marigold garlands. Was this about death or life?..... This was one way to see it. Or you could stick your neck out and feel the air as it camouflaged death.
6. Going through lanes selling rudraksh beads and kiosks hawking real estate....A guy with a box on a stand tried to market the idea of a quickie horoscope....sticky stains left behind by extra sweet chai...suspicious-looking chhole-bhature and pakoras...the slippery floor that is wet with water and urine that mingle with dust and muck to produce a greyish glaze...

Nothing in the whole word picture that Bibi Farzana has painted seems worth cherishing to me.
Superimpose on all the death a minor blip of SankatMochan temple bombing and even Tiny Tim would say `Bah Humbag`. Just the name of the temple seems like some Hindu deity playing the hustler.

That sankat engulfed the gullible idiots who were there for the mochan of some minor imaginary Sankat in their miserable lives is true poetic justice. A case very similar to that of the Hazis who were trampled to their death recently, just when they renounced and stoned the devil.

Who says Gods do not have a sense of humor?..LOL..

#170 Hamidm

[...people from the less developed world are rather insecure and feel it is necessary to run around in leopard skins and dhotis...]

Mian, are you from the less-developed part of the world - or are you simply more developed?

And has that development occurred in a uniform manner? All over you?

#188 Nasah (Addendum)

...and I consider it a great honor!

THERE!

#188 Nasah

I knew it was just a matter of time before I got some nasahat from you!

[...an editor- smitten chowki on the amusing voyage of narcissistic self discovery...]

You mean YOU are not? And the whole gang here is not?

Sure, I believe you.

ALL of you!

Go back to your GWB bashing - dah-ling!

No hard feelings, please!

Re: # 190
[kitchen appliances and other aspects]
Never found anything as good as a Sumeet for grinding those good Indian masalas.-)). Athena`s are Canadian, not Greek, the other greek was a Goddess.)) Wonder if she spoke well, she seemed to have taken care of Ulysses though, whispering into her Dad`s ears.

warrior

i am aware of some of the indian contributions (i already repsect st andrews for its gold course) but will be more comfortable if it were more widely applied in areas like agricultural tools, pullies, irrigation, screws, kitchen appliances and other aspects which make life less miserable. applications like astrology and altar measurements while impressive, dont make me as proud. enjoy your greek speakers.. greeks have always been famous for their speeches.

Re: # 187
[wtf.. bose is no good? so we hindus are back to zero?]
Just my opinion because I`m a cheapskate and hate paying out more cash than necessary. I`ve found other speakers that are as good for less money. For $650 you can get a much better sound from say Athena than Bose would give you with $1200. That`s just me though and other people might disagree. But it`s not that Bose cannot build those speakers. They can and they won`t because they are selling to a different market.

Now on ``zero`` itself there are people who will tell you that the Chinese had it that some other folks had it etc etc. I can fish out my copy of ``The nothing that is``, by that Kaplan chap to see what he says. I didn`t agree with what he wrote in his book but I forgot why.
But there is a lot to Indian Mathematics. You can read ``The Crest of the Peacock``, by George GeeVerghese Joseph. He talks about how the measurements for various altars required to perform rites were made. These were the first Indian Mathematical treatises (Sulbasutras). There is also the Mactutor History of Mathematics from St.Andrews University that has a fairly detailed set of Indian Mathematicians. This does by the way include Panini (not the sandwich variety which I believe can be geometrically rectangular and sometimes can be distorted in shape under compression, shear and stress from incisors and molars ).
Now if I wasted your time , it`s your own fault .-))

Re: # 186

``I do try to reread articles unlike others who read it just once....... the latter is uniquely my own, or so I like to believe.....

I agree with the statement regarding several hundred interactors...... in my view, is closer to 150

I was never knowledgdeable (and still remain in the dark)....

(I agree that I did not notice the details....I am not a frequenter of UP......which I do not know.).....

I feel it is off-the-mark to attribute selfish motives to my interacts.....

Who cares for my own visibility - I am not a writer, or a poet, or an expert like many others here.

I know that - sometimes I feel that I don`t even have words of my own.

I certainly may have said things which are inconsistent, or foolish, or asinine -
so what?

I have tried to acknowledge those whenever I could - and I do not care....

There is little else to add except .....what I already said in the last but fourth paragraph of......

I agree that perhaps I could have toned down.....(bjK)

an editor- smitten chowki on the amusing voyage of narcissistic self discovery.......:)

#179 wtf.. bose is no good? so we hindus are back to zero?

Re: # 164 FarzanaVersey

Inspite of its long length, there is little in your interact which is not already well-known around here (at least to the fifty or so individuals who are always signed on here). The nicks have evolved over time, they have been acknowledged voluntarily almost all along and unlike in case of others - never used as a tool of deception. I do try to reread articles unlike others who read it just once and then pronounce a verdict for eternity - then become captives of the same. The inspirational value of certain writers (including yourself, and of both genders) is also plain to see and is clearly reflected in my interacts - both their numbers and intensity - the latter is uniquely my own, or so I like to believe.

I agree with the statement regarding several hundred interactors (the maximum number, in my view, is closer to 150 - but it jumped to over 500 once before falling back - probably because of software bug).

I was never knowledgdeable (and still remain in the dark) regarding the ``previous management``. Until your name was announced as the ``chief editor`` I did not even know there was such a position - and certainly not who were the individuals gracing it.

If you read the two interacts with suggestions (#205 on the ``Foot`` board and the one that it links to) - it will be clear that there are legitimate concerns there. Your wholesale dismissal is off the mark - and is rather typical of you - perhaps ``dictatorial`` is too strong a word - but I have my own (provocative) style and choice of words - like others do! (I agree that I did not notice the details of ``interact index`` before - I am not a frequenter of UP - and the details have been there, true - but there is too much detail all over the place buried here and there - which I do not know.)

In the same way, I feel it is off-the-mark to attribute selfish motives to my interacts. Who cares for my own visibility - I am not a writer, or a poet, or an expert like many others here. I know that - sometimes I feel that I don`t even have words of my own. I certainly may have said things which are inconsistent, or foolish, or asinine - so what? I have tried to acknowledge those whenever I could - you see, there is no ``track record`` for me to defend - and I do not care if the ``track`` is all over the place!

Regarding ``coterie``, please rest assured that there is at least one interactor without any - and likes to keep it that way - and it is fine if in the process gets stuff dished out from every side.

There is little else to add except to reiterate what I already said in the last but fourth paragraph of #159.

PS: You are mistaken about the number of articles. Also, I agree that perhaps I could have toned down #143.

Re: #184 by myself

[Yes, it would SEEM that way to a the casual observer with no insight or knowledge. If you read a little, and look at the backgrounds of those people in India for example on whose shoulders modern Indian achievements stand and future achievements will stand, you will see that they took their inspiration from their Indian heritage, not the west. ]


President Abdul Kalam is an EXCELLENT example of that - someone I truly respect.

#181 by hamidm2

[.......... inferiority complex is good because it makes you strive to better yourself .......... denial is a horrible thing because it makes you hang on to silly customs and cultural ``values`` that keep you clad in a loin cloth, with red paint on your forehead and squatting on the railroad tracks ...........]


Actually you did not acknowledge that you were VERY WRONG one of your CHIEF ASSERTIONS - i.e. it is insecurity that drives me to post so many things about my grandpas` contribution to humanity - WHEN IN REALITY it is YOUR post equating Hindu contributions to Koranic stuff that drew my response.

Your post btw brings to mind Gandhi`s famous response - when asked what he thought about Western civilization, he said - ``that`s a wonderful idea``. The things that impress you are superficial. The things you do not see are what matters most - respect for elders, respect for education, duty to family and society.

No doubt your inferiority complex has driven you to strive to do better, but I always knew who my predecessors were, and how they compared to people from the west. You guys do not have that sense, because you have an amputated history, and the amputated post-conversion stub has little in it that compares favorably with western civilization. Therefore people like you have two choices - adopt the horrible legacy of Islam (although traditional middle eastern societies have similar concepts of respect for elders, and family values), or reject anything non-western and adopt the west. I can understand your dilemma and the inferiority complex is arises out of.

[...it seems that a people`s degree of ``backwardness`` is directly proportional to their ``pride`` in the local culture - that is why the people of baluchistan are still living in caves, the african american is stuck in the ghetto and the american indian is stuck on a reservation ...........]

Yes, it would SEEM that way to a the casual observer with no insight or knowledge. If you read a little, and look at the backgrounds of those people in India for example on whose shoulders modern Indian achievements stand and future achievements will stand, you will see that they took their inspiration from their Indian heritage, not the west.


[..in any case, there is nothing more disgusting than watching a madrasi eat rice with his hands even though he might call his mama mummy and his pa daddy and knows a panini from a reuben .........]


I eat rice with my hands at home as do my children. When they go to a restaurant, they eat with a knife and fork, because that is the accepted practice at that restaurant, although less comfortable. At home, within our family`s surroundings, we eat with our hands. There is no better way to mix rice with curry than with your hands. If there is an Indian restaurant in India serving rice and curry where it is kosher to eat with your hands, we would do that.

Somehow when westerners eat chicken wings with their hands it looks pretty stylish, doesn`t it?

A lot of things depend on your perspective.


[........... in any case, there is nothing more disgusting than watching a madrasi eat rice with his hands even though he might call his mama mummy and his pa daddy and knows a panini from a reuben .........]

In fact, when I saw a video of OBL eating with his hands with his friends, I liked the fact that he did that, in spite of being a very rich man who is very familiar with the west. (I of course do not like ANYTHING else about him.)

By the way, which one do you find more disgusting - OBL eating rice with his hands or a madrasi?

``it seems that a people`s degree of ``backwardness`` is directly proportional to their ``pride`` in the local culture``(Hamidm)

great math by a man from the land of Panini....!

Re: # 174

``I view societies somewhat like trees. For a tree to be strong and healthy, it needs to be nurtured by fresh air and sunshine, but it also need to have strong roots. It can develop different branches which can all bear fruit. A really strong tree, such as the Indian Banyan tree, is even capable of developing roots wherever the branches go. ``(Dost mitter)

great simile -- meray bhai dost-mitter sahib -- good to have deep roots -- the only problem with roots deep or shallow is that the trees can`t walk away from anything -- the trees that walked away `unfortunately` became us animals......(pun intended.....:)

Re: # 180

raman mian,

.......... inferiority complex is good because it makes you strive to better yourself .......... denial is a horrible thing because it makes you hang on to silly customs and cultural ``values`` that keep you clad in a loin cloth, with red paint on your forehead and squatting on the railroad tracks ........... it seems that a people`s degree of ``backwardness`` is directly proportional to their ``pride`` in the local culture - that is why the people of baluchistan are still living in caves, the african american is stuck in the ghetto and the american indian is stuck on a reservation ........... in any case, there is nothing more disgusting than watching a madrasi eat rice with his hands even though he might call his mama mummy and his pa daddy and knows a panini from a reuben .........

Re: #178 by myself

[....We call our parents Mummy and Daddy instead of Mataji and Pitaji and call our regional movie Industry Bollywood. What more can you expect? .....]

By ``We``, of course, I mean most educated folks in our subcontinent. I, of course, or anyone else in my family, would never dream of calling our parents ``Mummy`` or ``Daddy``.

Re: # 176
[ however, i am against teaching history of any kind because it doesn`t serve any purpose - it is better to stay focused on the present and future rather than getting all worked up about what happened thousands of years ago]

I had to do this it was too good to resist.

`` Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ``
-- Georges Santayana

I believe the correct statement was more akin to ``If a man forgets his past , he is condemned to relive it.

Re: 175
Jang, I don`t like Bose speakers. I think they are priced too high for their performance. I can get speakers that are as good for less money. I think they spend more money on their advertising than on their commercial speaker research. But you should see the research they do on car stabilisation systems etc. It`s amazing what they have in their labs.

#170 by hamidm2

[......... but i do find that people from the less developed world are rather insecure and feel it is necessary to run around in leopard skins and dhotis extolling the value of their culture and the contributions their gandpas made to mankind ......... kids in india will jump up excitedly and tell you that gopinath krishmurty invented the zero and that gandhi jee invented the spinning wheel ...........on the other hand kids in the us, for example, wrongly blame benjamin franklin for inventing school and couldn`t care less if calvin klein invented blue jeans ...........]


My dear hamidm,

If you have to take a dig at me, I`d appreciate it if you did it directly.

The reason you do not find Americans trying to prove the contributions their grandpas made to mankind is because they are talking to you, a Paki. It is the same reason why Indians would not be trying to prove the contributions their grandpas made to someone from Ghana or Congo. Also, we tend to compare ourselves with the common American because they are white, while the reality is that the common American should be compared to the common Indian. The common man in India who is driving an autorickshaw is just as unconcerned about their grandparents` contributions to humanity. If you had this conversation with someone from Yale, Harvard or MIT, you will find that they are more aware of their grandparents` contributions. And then there is the issue that since we are less developed, and ``squatting on railroad tracks``, we tend to be more defensive when people like you suggest that the Hindu achievements are just like the claims made about the Quran - WHICH IS WHAT STARTED THIS CONVERSATION ANYWAY.

In any case, your assertion is yet another example of the inferiority complex that has beset some of us ``less developed(?)`` folks. We call our parents Mummy and Daddy instead of Mataji and Pitaji and call our regional movie Industry Bollywood. What more can you expect?

Re: # 170

Hamidm Sahib:

I think you will enjoy this 12 minute movie on Call Center:

http://www.callcentermovie.com/movie/movie.html

Anil

Re: # 174

dost,

..... it is always good to hear from you and i do agree that pakis have a rather warped sense of history ............ however, i am against teaching history of any kind because it doesn`t serve any purpose - it is better to stay focused on the present and future rather than getting all worked up about what happened thousands of years ago ......... there is absolutely no value in reliving the past - all it does is cause all kinds of problems ....... history has always been a tool in the hands of ambitious and murderous men like hitler, milosovic and osama .......

#173 chanakyaniti is prolly taught in PMA as a course in baniya mentality..he is afterall machiavelli of india.

anyhoo, indians absolutely OWN rock, no rock music or concert is possible without bose speakeres. while marconi corporation (out of uk) is near backrupcy and being purchased by Huawei for a few yuans, Bose Corp is proudly still a privately held company, at no risk of being bought by the chinese or dubaiians.

hamidm2, nasah:

You mind if I put in my 2-cents here?

I view societies somewhat like trees. For a tree to be strong and healthy, it needs to be nurtured by fresh air and sunshine, but it also need to have strong roots. It can develop different branches which can all bear fruit. A really strong tree, such as the Indian Banyan tree, is even capable of developing roots wherever the branches go. The Jewish Diaspora survived and prospered because it had strong roots as does the European, Chinese and Japanese societies. The Indian society has similar strong roots.

I think that one of the reasons why Pakistan has so much problem finding a true identity is not that it is not open to new inventions, almost every modern invention finds place in Pakistan, even in Madrassas, but because it insists upon ignoring its roots. Even moderate Pakistanis would rather trace their roots to the African bushman than to the land to which they belong. Nobody seems to have any serious problem with the fact that their history is presumed to start with the arrival of foreigners in their land. It is like the American natives saying that their history started with the Pioneers landing in Massachusets. Even white Canada has now starting teaching its children that Canadian history started with the natives and not with teh arrivals of the White Man. In Pakistan, even the native has fully accepted the history of the colonialist and every Pakistani knows a lot more about the history of his conquerors than of his own ancestors - even those who do not claim that they are descended from those conquerors.

Re: # 171
Why is it that you did not know this? I would have thought it would be necessary to know these things. After all Punjabi is descended from Sanskrit roots and is spoken in Pakistan. I`m sure knowledge of Panini`s grammar should exist in the Universities.
My Uncle who was in the Indian Army, once told me long ago that Kautilya`s Arthashastra was read in Pakistani Army Officer`s courses. I don`t know if this is true. Would anybody be in a position to verify this?

Re: # 170
Hamid
I`m not so sure that it`s just true of people in the less developed world. It could be a simple issue of people with something to prove. I know quite a few Americans and their children who are aware and proud of their countries development to literature, science etc. I say countries because there are aware of where their fore-fathers came from. Now I see this more with Jewish people over here than other races perhaps because they, like ourselves still see themselves as a little different and, secondly in the 20th century in the US, they have been the largest contributors to the sciences and music, despite the fact that in the early years Universities were actively against their admittance.
I don`t think that is bad. It does provide something to strive for. It`s better to strive for excellence than make peace with mediocrity.
After all conversations between Al-lah and Gabby or the Sage and Urstruly are much better to read than some of the drivel that goes on here.-))

and here I was the ignorant one who thought that phonetically Panini sounded more like an Italian opera singer.....than a Hindu phonetic gramarian of yore -- who was born in Pakistan but died in India or born in India died in Pakistan -- around 450 BC..

....without him Backus could not have concieved the computer language......!

Re: # 168

anil mian,

..... actually you aroused my curiosity and i googled panini to find out that he was from attock which is sixty or so miles from my hometown .......... but of all the interactors from the wrong side of the border i do read yours and alephnull`s stuff with some seriousness (even though he appears to be an unrepentant shiv sanik) - more often than not you two have something to say .............

......... but i do find that people from the less developed world are rather insecure and feel it is necessary to run around in leopard skins and dhotis extolling the value of their culture and the contributions their gandpas made to mankind ......... kids in india will jump up excitedly and tell you that gopinath krishmurty invented the zero and that gandhi jee invented the spinning wheel ...........on the other hand kids in the us, for example, wrongly blame benjamin franklin for inventing school and couldn`t care less if calvin klein invented blue jeans ...........

#167 by kaalchakra

[Ramanujan

The web is infested with people selling snake oil. Among them, drowning others in ``information`` is a common and time-honored tactic.

That`s why, it is better to say a little and be believed, than to say a lot, and be dismissed. ]

Those who argue not to find out the truth, but only to win (Mantolives, Tahmed32, masadi etc.), will dismiss it anyway.

And those who are actually curious, will read and find out the truth.

Re: # 146

Hamidm Sahib:

I am a big fan of your sense of humor.

Von-Nauman`s model of computing machinery created in 1940s, I believe is the basis of computer architectures. Students (you can these classes too) take a theoretical computer science class at Stanford, or MIT, find out about Panini`s formal grammar for the grammar. I have the research book titled ``Panini : the first formal grammarian`` (or something like it). This was published by MIT about 25 years ago. It is a very interesting reading, if are interested computing technologies.

Kaalchakra is correct that Panini was born somewhere in Pakistan (the name of the place slips my mind right now) near Afganistan border. Pakistanis can certainly claim him as their own.

Anil
We all wish MIT and Stanford were in the third world, would you not agree?

Ramanujan

The web is infested with people selling snake oil. Among them, drowning others in ``information`` is a common and time-honored tactic.

That`s why, it is better to say a little and be believed, than to say a lot, and be dismissed.

#163 by hamidm2

We in India have a problem that is very different than faced by westerners. People in India are so used to the languid weather and fertile lands, that they never felt the need to develop the sciences for material necessity (unlike in Europe, all scientific discoveries in India had been mainly for religious purposes). until it was too late, and the population had exploded. Add to that a spiritual bent of mind, and you have a distinctly non-materialistic tradition. Also, because India is such a mix of diverse culture, different segments of the population developed in the sciences and education in general differently.

But all that is changing now. If you watched the Daily Show videos I posted recently, India has turned confident at the grassroots level. Because of that, it will be very difficult to stop India`s progress. Because the impetus is bottom-up, not top-down. Indians have also turned materialistic (regrettable to some extent), and I think that an economic juggernaut is building. I predict that in the coming years the majority of fundamental research will be by the Indians and Chinese. Just like today Americans feel low-tech and a step behind when they meet the Japanese and the South Koreans, the day is not far off when that will apply to the Indians as well.

Keep watching. You will see.

ramanujam I know I know -- just kidding about this subcontinental puerile preoccupation .....pedaram sultan bood....my dad can beat up ur dad.....my yogurt is butter than ur yogurt.......:)

......sorry if I hurt ur feelings.........

Re: # 159

[Humor can take many forms - some of which can be considered ``sick`` by some (usually by the supercilious types).]

We have been there before...those who do not agree with you become supercilious. Just look at your posts everywhere; you are patronising and you tell new writers about how late you have come to their boards as though they have been waiting for you.

You have seen nothing yet...and your so-called ``short-lived`` appearances are just attention-getting devices. Not only that, you use phrases from my articles, posts, ilogs in a feeble attempt at `getting back`. If you have seen plenty of truly sick humour around here, then you are hugely responsible for contributing to it. (Do not forget those nasty references and lewd language...)

You do not merely create stereotypes, but imaginary demons to come out as the `knight` you once so fancied yourself being.

And YOU ought not to be talking about inconsistencies...on every article you carp, then you say you have re-read the piece, then you demur, then you realise you need to come up with a smart come-back...oh, enough...

[(Sorry, ma`m - NOBODY is perfect - so nobody is beyond getting caught reaching inside the cookie jar - and nobody is too big to be called out by this interactor!)]

Oh dear, who cares? You seem to have this huge chip about being this terminator (one of your nicks boasted about being a lion!). You are not.

[It is within my perfect legitimate rights to appear on whichever board I choose, and unlike your great ``fan club`` - I DO like a variety of topics and I do feel I have to say something when I do say it - so I say it. And I do have a certain advantage which comes from being a simple ordinary individual - unlike the hall-of-famers haunting these hallowed (but in many instances mostly hollowed) halls - so I can speak my mind plainly!]

You speak your mind plainly? Hah...you need to come with all your nicks on my writer`s page and leave your comments. Do not worry your little head over my so-called fan club. Do not forget your old posts...it is a whole lot of interactors who have coteries here and who keep posting and badgering writers; they take 50-100 posts to say they did not like something. Strange.

[If you have a problem with what I say or how I say it - you have the power to ban me (in the end it always boils down to that gun of user ID/password, doesn`t it?) Simple as that! Feel free to exercise it! Otherwise, feel free to get used to it!]

You were banned because you were using multiple nicks and spamming one board long ago. As long as you stick to the guidelines, there is no reason to ban you. And I don`t have to get used to you...there are several hundred interactors who need my attention as well.

[Why do some people get ticked at what one has to say? And why do some people persist in saying stuff that is most of the time highly provocative - whether of substance or not? Good question. You don`t happen to know anybody like that, by any chance?]

Ask yourself first before trying to show the mirror. I have kept quiet all this while because I thought at some point you will cease being single-minded in your agenda, and anyone looking at your `history` here carefully will know just what it is all about...

You had sent in one article that was published. If you are using another name/nic, then that will have to be looked into.

[My ``feedback`` on enhancing the value of this site by increasing its transparency (and by dismantling its class structure) has been already documented elsewhere and - from all indications - promptly ignored! And what is four months in the scheme of things?!]

Your `feedback` has been nothing but a litany of complaints about issues that have to do with increasing your interact index. It has to do with YOU. Wonder why you never thought of this class structure before I came in in the new role. Don`t teach us transparency. All the details are there if people choose to check them out.

Many use the FP forum only to gain more visibility for themselves and appear to be the keepers of other people`s consciences.

If you wish to enhance the value of this site, then first learn to conduct yourself with decorum (I am not talking about your comments on this board).

One is aware that you feel the desperate need to have the last word, therefore say what you wish and be done with it. I have had my say.

Best wishes.

PS: I am aware this is off-topic and should the need arise, this post will be filtered out.

ramanuja,

... stop it before people of your ilk from the other side start flooding this board with articles on how their bedouin ancestors invented algebra, medicine and surgery in addition to perfecting the art of suicide bombing ..............

...... who cares about what our forefathers did way back then, when they are still squatting on the railroad tracks and running around in loin cloths and generally behaving like a bunch of savages - call centers and underwear is but a small step in the right direction .......... but coming up with zero and negative numbers centuries ago is quite irrelevant, isn`t it ? ......... i marvel at the greatness of panini every time i have his sandwich, the other panini never crosses my mind even though i might share a few genes with him .........

........ what is really sobering is the thought that we are still struggling with the concept of indoor plumbing and eating utensils ......... who cares about yativrsabha varahamihira aryabhata ......... but i do agree that bose did invent the radio for fools who don`t understand the concept of price and value ............

#160 by nasah


There is a difference between the ACTUAL achievements of the Hindu mathematicians etc., as opposed to the camel dung theories popularized by the illiterate bedouin like how the sun goes around the earth, how the earth is flat, and how mountains serve as paperweights to prevent earthquakes.

#160 by nasah

[Hamidm -- see this is what happens when good Mulims like you don`t believe your own Koran has the cure for cancer -- the good Hindus will jump in to take the credit for (``TV, FM, AM, XM, Cellphone, Bluetooth - you name it``) -- with their puranay Puranas....... ]

Try not to make asinine statements. The point was that Bose, a ``Hindu`` was the ACTUAL discoverer of Radio, as opposed to Marconi. Has nothing to do with the puranas.

Re: # 146

Hamidm -- see this is what happens when good Mulims like you don`t believe your own Koran has the cure for cancer -- the good Hindus will jump in to take the credit for (``TV, FM, AM, XM, Cellphone, Bluetooth - you name it``) -- with their puranay Puranas.......

Re: # 147

Okay, so I should not have brought in that gentleman`s name - the gentleman, for what it is worth - who I admire greatly. A simple inadvertant instance of third-party catalysis-ism, I suppose - which should by no means be confused with a cataclysm!

(Incidently, I was unaware that Mr. Coelho writes for this website.)

Humor can take many forms - some of which can be considered ``sick`` by some (usually by the supercilious types). Frankly, I have seen plenty of what should be TRULY considered ``sick`` humor around here - because such ``humor`` hits individuals in areas of life over which they have little control - including ridiculing whole nations, regions, religions, ethnicities, languages - not to mention gender - and creating stereotypes! All of that seems to be fine with the current management - writers, ``writers``, and interactors all feel free to indulge in that food-fight willy-nilly - but point out a single trivial inconsistency in this instance - and all hell breaks loose! (Sorry, ma`m - NOBODY is perfect - so nobody is beyond getting caught reaching inside the cookie jar - and nobody is too big to be called out by this interactor!)

It is within my perfect legitimate rights to appear on whichever board I choose, and unlike your great ``fan club`` - I DO like a variety of topics and I do feel I have to say something when I do say it - so I say it. And I do have a certain advantage which comes from being a simple ordinary individual - unlike the hall-of-famers haunting these hallowed (but in many instances mostly hollowed) halls - so I can speak my mind plainly!

If you have a problem with what I say or how I say it - you have the power to ban me (in the end it always boils down to that gun of user ID/password, doesn`t it?) Simple as that! Feel free to exercise it! Otherwise, feel free to get used to it!

Why do some people get ticked at what one has to say? And why do some people persist in saying stuff that is most of the time highly provocative - whether of substance or not? Good question. You don`t happen to know anybody like that, by any chance?

[...If you have an opinion, please send in an article.]
How do you know that I have not in the past already published articles here? (Hush, everybody!)

My ``feedback`` on enhancing the value of this site by increasing its transparency (and by dismantling its class structure) has been already documented elsewhere and - from all indications - promptly ignored! And what is four months in the scheme of things?!

#157 by kaalchakra

[Ramanujan

Hope you won`t flood Chowk with information! ]

There is an unfortunate tendency that has gripped people in our subcontinent to ACTUALLY feel inferior to the Europeans. This does great injustice to the FUNDAMENTAL contributions made by Hindus to world civilization.

Unfortunately, there is no other way than post what I have posted. The information out there is many times this volume, so I tried to pick a couple that illustrates the FUNDAMENTAL nature of the contribution of Hindus to science, like the discovery of the number 0, the decimal (base 10) system which provides the model for the base 2 (binary) system, the concept of infinity in mathematics, and a million other things.

When you see that there is too much I posted, just hit the PageUp button a couple of times.

That`ll solve your problem.

Raw_Dust

In conceptualizing a continuously changing universe, Hinduism incorporates the possibility of error in everything we see and know.


Ramanujan

Hope you won`t flood Chowk with information!

In my post #148, I should have highlighted the following for Hamidm2:

........

The main ideas of Jaina mathematics, particularly those relating to its cosmology with its passion for large finite numbers and infinite numbers, continued to flourish with scholars such as Yativrsabha. He was a contemporary of Varahamihira and of the slightly older Aryabhata. We should also note that the two schools at Kusumapura and Ujjain were involved in the continuing developments of the numerals and of place-valued number systems. The next figure of major importance at the Ujjain school was Brahmagupta near the beginning of the seventh century AD and he would make one of the most major contributions to the development of the numbers systems with his remarkable contributions on negative numbers and zero. It is a sobering thought that eight hundred years later European mathematics would be struggling to cope without the use of negative numbers and of zero.

......

Re: # 152

zeemax:

[The moral of this story is that, when things don`t seem to be going
your way, always know that God has a plan for you.

Now here you`re contrading your premise of `Nothingness`. Didn`t expect this from you of all people. Don`t be phoney.]

Please...I had prefixed this story with this sentence, ``And something to share, whether you believe or not....placebo? I would replace god with Destiny...``

Before that in #79, I had stated, ``The term Nothing instead of `void` was used because the shoonya stithi cannot be striven for in `emptiness`.``

For me, `shoonya` represents non-being, and for that you have to Be and Become. That is the reason one has to go somewhere even for Nothing.

It can be a placebo effect, and Destiny does have a role to play.

Honestly, being phoney would come in if I were on test. I assume my inner world is not being judged here...

hamidm:
i think there is a big difference. hinduism need not to stand and validate its philosophy, axioms, etc. by appealing to the material world.

Islam Has to because it calls itself Deen-e-Fitrat, Religion of Nature.

About the invention of the radio, the basis for ALL communications technology today - TV, FM, AM, XM, Cellphone, Bluetooth - you name it:

The following is from the prestigious SCIENCE magazine:

BOSE CREDITED WITH KEY ROLE IN MARCONI`S RADIO BREAKTHROUGH

DELHI, INDIA-The Italian physicist Guglielmo Marconi holds a secure place in the history books for decoding the first ireless message sent across the Atlantic Ocean. That achievement, on 12 December 1901, ushered in the modern era of electronic communications. But it also triggered a century-long debate over who should get the credit for developing the receiving device that captured the famous message, sent from England to Newfoundland via Morse code. This month an article in a special issue of The Proceedings of the IEEE, marking the 100th anniversary of the diode and the 50th anniversary of the transistor, makes a definitive case for Jagadis Chandra Bose, an Indian biologist and physicist. Bose announced the invention in an 1899 paper presented at the Royal Society in London, writes Probir Bondyopadhyay, a satellite and commications engineer at Johnson Space Center in Houston and also an amatertistorian. In contrast, says Bondyopadhay, Marconi ``was like a honeybee collecting honey from different flowers`` to improve his wireless transmitter. ``And he never gave credit to those who deserved it.``

The device, called a self-recovering coherer, contained a sequence of iron-mercury iron in a vacuum tube that was able to receive a long-distance message by continually resetting itself before each pulse. Bondyopadhayay says Marconi may have deliberately tried to divert attention from Bose`s contribution by leaving the impression that it came from others, including an Italian naval officer.

Ironically, Bondyopadhyay was drawn into the dispute more than a decade ago at the request of Marconi`s daughter, G. Marconi Braga, who was upset about media reports (including a 1984 article in The New York Tbnes) stating that Marconi should share credit with Nikola Tesla and others for inventing wireless radio. Braga, who died last year, ``asked me to look into the matter,`` says Bondyopadhyay. But instead of buttressing Marconi`s claims, his investigations led him to Bose`s role in advancing the technology. ``I`m a historian. I find the facts and publish the facts.... By clarifying this thing, all I am trying to do is to set the record straight.`` Amplifiers were not available in the early days of radio telegraphy, so the reception of messages depended on receiver sensitivity. Although Marconi and Bose succeeded in communicating across a few kilometers in separate experiments during 1895, a better version was needed for long-distance signals.

Questions about the coherer`s true origin arose shortly after Marconi announced his results. The editor of a prominent Italian technical magazine, L`Eidu, made the case for an Italian navy signalman, P. Castelli. In response, Marconi said the receiving device he used was a gift from the Royal Italian Navy through his childhood friend, Luigi Solari, a Navy lieutenant. But in a July 1902 letter to the editor of The Times of London, Solari wrote that the idea came to him ``in some English publication which I found myself unable to trace.`` One year later, in the same newspaper, he declared that he ``did not invent the coherer.`` This sequence of events was first pointed out by a British historian, Vivian Phillips, in a 1993 paper in IEEE Transactions. But Phillips didn`t mention Bose or speculate about the identity of the real inventor, the author of the mysterious publication
to which Solari referred.

The solution, however, was readily available in the literature. Bose, a maverick scientist working out of a one-room laboratory in Calcutta offered it in a paper that appeared in the April 1899 issue of the Proceedings of the Royal Society. Titled ``On a Self-Recovering Coherer and the Study of the Cohering Action of Different Metals,`` the paper described the use of an iron-mercury coherer for detecting radio waves, then called electric radiation.

``For very delicate adjustments of pressure,`` Bose wrote, ``I used in some of the following experiments an U-tube filled with mercury, with a plunger in one of the limbs; various substances were adjusted to touch barely the mercury in the other limb.... I then interposed a telephone in the circuit; each time a flash of radiation fell on the receiver the telephone sounded.`` After a series of experiments, Bose concluded that ``there can be no doubt that the action was entirely due to electric radiation.``

In his IEEE Proceedings paper, Bondyopadhyay describes how Marconi, in the years after the experiment, ``shifted attention`` away from Bose`s contribution through a ``careful choice of words ... and clear diversionary tactics.`` And he suggests that the obfuscation was deliberate. ``Marconi didn`t disclose immediately what he used in receiving his message,`` says Bondyopadhyay, noting the inventor`s vagueness about the device in a New York speech 1 month after his landmark experiment and later that spring in London. ``There was a bad motive involved, I suspect, but I don`t come down too hard on him for that,`` the engineer adds.

Bondyopadhyay also explains why the controversy wasn`t nipped in the bud, pinning some of the blame on Bose`s scientific colleagues. ``It is embarrassingly obvious that the British learned men of the day ...never discovered Bose`s work, Despite its being so prominently displayed in the most prestigious publication of the British empire. It is clear that they never read this esteemed publication [or] did not connect Bose`s work with Marconi`s use of the device.``

Prasanta Kumar Ray, a biochemist and current director of the Bose Institute in Calcutta, applauds Bondyopadhyay for correcting ``a grave historical injustice`` that robbed Bose of a share of Marconi`s 1909 Nobel Prize. ``No one can deny that it was Marconi who used and utilized this discovery for the larger benefit to mankind, but Bose made the actual scientific discovery,`` says Ray. As to why Bose himself didn`t clear up the mystery, Ray notes that ``Bose was in a search for true knowledge, and he shunned crass commercialization of inventions.``

Even Italy`s former science minister, Umberto Colombo, says he`s glad for the new information. ``I am not surprised about this revelation against Marconi`` he told ScierKe. ``But it will not undermine Marconi`s sole position in the history of science and in commercializing wireless telegraphy.``

- Jeffrey Mervis and Pallava Bagla
SCIENCE , VOL. 279, 23 JANUARY 1998.

#141 by FarzanaVersey

The moral of this story is that, when things don`t seem to be going
your way, always know that God has a plan for you.

Now here you`re contrading your premise of `Nothingness`. Didn`t expect this from you of all people. Don`t be phoney.

Hamidm2

LOL...It does seem like the same kind of thing. But check the details for yourselves.

Panini, in particular, should be of interest to Pakistanis. He was a Pakistani himself. :)

re:#140 by anil
You have to be spiritually evolved to appreciate The Autobiography of a Yogi. I do not think u are there yet.
Sridhar

Check out this site:

http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/mathematics.html

If you think some facts are wrong, let me know which one.

#146 by hamidm2

[ .......... it seems that the horrible hindoos are almost as bad as the mohammadens who will tell you that the secrets to all things, great and small, are either hidden in the koran, or were discovered by some bedouin son of some other bedouin hundreds of years ago .......... ]

With the difference that, in the case of the hindus, it is ACTUALLY true.

Check out this site:

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Chronology/index.html

Here`s an extract:


It is without doubt that mathematics today owes a huge debt to the outstanding contributions made by Indian mathematicians over many hundreds of years. What is quite surprising is that there has been a reluctance to recognise this and one has to conclude that many famous historians of mathematics found what they expected to find, or perhaps even what they hoped to find, rather than to realise what was so clear in front of them.

We shall examine the contributions of Indian mathematics in this article, but before looking at this contribution in more detail we should say clearly that the ``huge debt`` is the beautiful number system invented by the Indians on which much of mathematical development has rested. Laplace put this with great clarity:-

The ingenious method of expressing every possible number using a set of ten symbols (each symbol having a place value and an absolute value) emerged in India. The idea seems so simple nowadays that its significance and profound importance is no longer appreciated. Its simplicity lies in the way it facilitated calculation and placed arithmetic foremost amongst useful inventions. the importance of this invention is more readily appreciated when one considers that it was beyond the two greatest men of Antiquity, Archimedes and Apollonius.

We shall look briefly at the Indian development of the place-value decimal system of numbers later in this article and in somewhat more detail in the separate article Indian numerals. First, however, we go back to the first evidence of mathematics developing in India.

Histories of Indian mathematics used to begin by describing the geometry contained in the Sulbasutras but research into the history of Indian mathematics has shown that the essentials of this geometry were older being contained in the altar constructions described in the Vedic mythology text the Shatapatha Brahmana and the Taittiriya Samhita. Also it has been shown that the study of mathematical astronomy in India goes back to at least the third millennium BC and mathematics and geometry must have existed to support this study in these ancient times.

The first mathematics which we shall describe in this article developed in the Indus valley. The earliest known urban Indian culture was first identified in 1921 at Harappa in the Punjab and then, one year later, at Mohenjo-daro, near the Indus River in the Sindh. Both these sites are now in Pakistan but this is still covered by our term ``Indian mathematics`` which, in this article, refers to mathematics developed in the Indian subcontinent. The Indus civilisation (or Harappan civilisation as it is sometimes known) was based in these two cities and also in over a hundred small towns and villages. It was a civilisation which began around 2500 BC and survived until 1700 BC or later. The people were literate and used a written script containing around 500 characters which some have claimed to have deciphered but, being far from clear that this is the case, much research remains to be done before a full appreciation of the mathematical achievements of this ancient civilisation can be fully assessed.

We often think of Egyptians and Babylonians as being the height of civilisation and of mathematical skills around the period of the Indus civilisation, yet V G Childe in New Light on the Most Ancient East (1952) wrote:-

India confronts Egypt and Babylonia by the 3rd millennium with a thoroughly individual and independent civilisation of her own, technically the peer of the rest. And plainly it is deeply rooted in Indian soil. The Indus civilisation represents a very perfect adjustment of human life to a specific environment. And it has endured; it is already specifically Indian and forms the basis of modern Indian culture.

We do know that the Harappans had adopted a uniform system of weights and measures. An analysis of the weights discovered suggests that they belong to two series both being decimal in nature with each decimal number multiplied and divided by two, giving for the main series ratios of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500. Several scales for the measurement of length were also discovered during excavations. One was a decimal scale based on a unit of measurement of 1.32 inches (3.35 centimetres) which has been called the ``Indus inch``. Of course ten units is then 13.2 inches which is quite believable as the measure of a ``foot``. A similar measure based on the length of a foot is present in other parts of Asia and beyond. Another scale was discovered when a bronze rod was found which was marked in lengths of 0.367 inches. It is certainly surprising the accuracy with which these scales are marked. Now 100 units of this measure is 36.7 inches which is the measure of a stride. Measurements of the ruins of the buildings which have been excavated show that these units of length were accurately used by the Harappans in construction.

It is unclear exactly what caused the decline in the Harappan civilisation. Historians have suggested four possible causes: a change in climatic patterns and a consequent agricultural crisis; a climatic disaster such flooding or severe drought; disease spread by epidemic; or the invasion of Indo-Aryans peoples from the north. The favourite theory used to be the last of the four, but recent opinions favour one of the first three. What is certainly true is that eventually the Indo-Aryans peoples from the north did spread over the region. This brings us to the earliest literary record of Indian culture, the Vedas which were composed in Vedic Sanskrit, between 1500 BC and 800 BC. At first these texts, consisting of hymns, spells, and ritual observations, were transmitted orally. Later the texts became written works for use of those practicing the Vedic religion.

The next mathematics of importance on the Indian subcontinent was associated with these religious texts. It consisted of the Sulbasutras which were appendices to the Vedas giving rules for constructing altars. They contained quite an amount of geometrical knowledge, but the mathematics was being developed, not for its own sake, but purely for practical religious purposes. The mathematics contained in the these texts is studied in some detail in the separate article on the Sulbasutras.

The main Sulbasutras were composed by Baudhayana (about 800 BC), Manava (about 750 BC), Apastamba (about 600 BC), and Katyayana (about 200 BC). These men were both priests and scholars but they were not mathematicians in the modern sense. Although we have no information on these men other than the texts they wrote, we have included them in our biographies of mathematicians. There is another scholar, who again was not a mathematician in the usual sense, who lived around this period. That was Panini who achieved remarkable results in his studies of Sanskrit grammar. Now one might reasonably ask what Sanskrit grammar has to do with mathematics. It certainly has somet