In the Dying Light
Farzana Versey March 8, 2006
#111 Posted by Ramanujan on March 10, 2006 11:46:22 pm
#103 by anil
[I so much agree that Indian must learn to differentiate between Muslim Indians and other muslims, especially Pakistanis. Among my wonderful friends, I can tell that differences are obvious to me. All muslim Indians that I have met are proud of India, and protective about their religion and respectful about others. They want to participate in the Indian dream and get a share of Indian pie. The outlook especially that of women is so much enlightened, and less submissive. This is obvious from both Ballukhan and Farzana (she certainly is more Indian than religious).
Anil]
You know Anil (and bjkumar),
There is a sickness in the liberal left that is quite maddening at times. The idea, that they alone understand the human values of decency and fellow-feeling, unlike those bad guys on the right.
Which is why it is so ironic to find that lefties are the FIRST to get wiped out in any theocracy.
Believe me - I, as well as many other ``insensitive`` people do know that there is an overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims who are not busy plotting jehad. However, I do not have ostrich-like illusions that there are not amongst them a few who have been bitten by the jehadi bug that has been going around for 1400 years. Yes, there are those amongst us who will slit your belly like a pig regardless of whether you want to recite well-meaning little poems to them.
Those people who planted the bombs might have been Pakistanis, but they had local help, as happens ALWAYS.
So kindly spare us the sermons of what beautiful friends you have amongst IMs - guess what - so do we on the ``insensitive`` right.
[I so much agree that Indian must learn to differentiate between Muslim Indians and other muslims, especially Pakistanis. Among my wonderful friends, I can tell that differences are obvious to me. All muslim Indians that I have met are proud of India, and protective about their religion and respectful about others. They want to participate in the Indian dream and get a share of Indian pie. The outlook especially that of women is so much enlightened, and less submissive. This is obvious from both Ballukhan and Farzana (she certainly is more Indian than religious).
Anil]
You know Anil (and bjkumar),
There is a sickness in the liberal left that is quite maddening at times. The idea, that they alone understand the human values of decency and fellow-feeling, unlike those bad guys on the right.
Which is why it is so ironic to find that lefties are the FIRST to get wiped out in any theocracy.
Believe me - I, as well as many other ``insensitive`` people do know that there is an overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims who are not busy plotting jehad. However, I do not have ostrich-like illusions that there are not amongst them a few who have been bitten by the jehadi bug that has been going around for 1400 years. Yes, there are those amongst us who will slit your belly like a pig regardless of whether you want to recite well-meaning little poems to them.
Those people who planted the bombs might have been Pakistanis, but they had local help, as happens ALWAYS.
So kindly spare us the sermons of what beautiful friends you have amongst IMs - guess what - so do we on the ``insensitive`` right.
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#112 Posted by Ramanujan on March 10, 2006 11:54:13 pm
Here`s some stuff for Mantolives, Tahmed, Behram (yes, Behram!), HP and all other well wishers of India to enjoy:
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerindex?id=1674437
And if you click on the ``INTERNATIONAL`` bar on the right, you`ll see another one in the same series called ``India: America`s Switchboard ``.
Watch and weep!
:)
(oh, and there`s some good stuff on Pakistan too!)
#113 Posted by FarzanaVersey on March 11, 2006 12:14:56 am
Oh good...now that everyone (including those from St. Louis) knows that IMs are essentially nice people...and there is a discussion on faith going on here, let me post something interesting. If you have already read it elsewhere , then read it again...
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, the Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn`t. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof: You can`t answer, can you? Let`s start again, young fellow. Is God good?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No
Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...
Prof: That`s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn`t it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don`t they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and serve the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelled your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I`m afraid I haven`t.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn`t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes, faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn`t.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don`t have any thing called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can`t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn`t darkness?
Student: You`re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light.... But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it is called darkness, isn`t it? In reality, darkness isn`t. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn`t you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can`t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where
the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor`s brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor`s brain, felt it, touched or smelled it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student.)
Prof: I guess you`ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it, sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
That young man was ALBERT EINSTEIN
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, the Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn`t. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof: You can`t answer, can you? Let`s start again, young fellow. Is God good?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No
Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...
Prof: That`s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn`t it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don`t they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and serve the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelled your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I`m afraid I haven`t.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn`t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes, faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn`t.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don`t have any thing called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can`t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn`t darkness?
Student: You`re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light.... But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it is called darkness, isn`t it? In reality, darkness isn`t. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn`t you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can`t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where
the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor`s brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor`s brain, felt it, touched or smelled it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student.)
Prof: I guess you`ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it, sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
That young man was ALBERT EINSTEIN
#114 Posted by anil on March 11, 2006 12:20:52 am
Re: # 104
BJ:
Please don`t forget India is a open and participative democracy. Forces which exclude or hurt certain segments of the pupulation will get isolated, as their methods and objectives become divergent from the rest in open society. I understand differences between terrorism and law and order.
To solve terrorism, India must involve all comnunity finger and not finger point a community and stereo type it. In case of Varanasi attack, Muslim Indian community leaders must be involved to help isolate terror elements. You jumped into us and single out they quite easily. This is wrong. There is no us or they as community all get affected. Only terrorists trying to make a point by attacking Sankat Mochan Temple, dedicated to Human on Tuesday, his day; or Delhi attack on Diwali, or attack on Parliament. There can only be zero tolerance on India`s part.
Without the community suppport, in open society with a lack of infrastructure, Indian police, military etc. will ineffective, as Pakistanis were in Bangladesh. I watched and lived through Bangaldesh war, as a student in England, on BBC news. It was like having a front center seat in the theater for 10 mins. out of 20 mins. 9:00PM news, every night. Pakistani army, police and government without local support were ineffective and lost. Rather than merely putting RAW agents in Karachi etc., for tit-for-tat, India must involve communities in all aspects. Indian cricket team today can have as many as 3 to 4 muslim Indians in the team, which shows that Team India is balanced and performs well, when all Indians can perform as a team. Participation of all commmunities is the best way to combat terrorism. Gujjubanias ilk may retaliate violently as a reaction to violence, but Ballukhan, Frazana, Hindvi and many many like them from all communities would not think of retaliation in that fashion. Inclusion is the best way to combat terrorism in however defective Indian democratic set up.
BTW, I also do not believe, that one must know all one billion Indians personally to form views, and indeed I do not know everyone of muslim Indians, just I do not know, everyone of hindu Indians.
Thanks,
Anil
BJ:
Please don`t forget India is a open and participative democracy. Forces which exclude or hurt certain segments of the pupulation will get isolated, as their methods and objectives become divergent from the rest in open society. I understand differences between terrorism and law and order.
To solve terrorism, India must involve all comnunity finger and not finger point a community and stereo type it. In case of Varanasi attack, Muslim Indian community leaders must be involved to help isolate terror elements. You jumped into us and single out they quite easily. This is wrong. There is no us or they as community all get affected. Only terrorists trying to make a point by attacking Sankat Mochan Temple, dedicated to Human on Tuesday, his day; or Delhi attack on Diwali, or attack on Parliament. There can only be zero tolerance on India`s part.
Without the community suppport, in open society with a lack of infrastructure, Indian police, military etc. will ineffective, as Pakistanis were in Bangladesh. I watched and lived through Bangaldesh war, as a student in England, on BBC news. It was like having a front center seat in the theater for 10 mins. out of 20 mins. 9:00PM news, every night. Pakistani army, police and government without local support were ineffective and lost. Rather than merely putting RAW agents in Karachi etc., for tit-for-tat, India must involve communities in all aspects. Indian cricket team today can have as many as 3 to 4 muslim Indians in the team, which shows that Team India is balanced and performs well, when all Indians can perform as a team. Participation of all commmunities is the best way to combat terrorism. Gujjubanias ilk may retaliate violently as a reaction to violence, but Ballukhan, Frazana, Hindvi and many many like them from all communities would not think of retaliation in that fashion. Inclusion is the best way to combat terrorism in however defective Indian democratic set up.
BTW, I also do not believe, that one must know all one billion Indians personally to form views, and indeed I do not know everyone of muslim Indians, just I do not know, everyone of hindu Indians.
Thanks,
Anil
#115 Posted by Ramanujan on March 11, 2006 1:18:59 am
Re: #114 by anil
[In case of Varanasi attack, Muslim Indian community leaders must be involved to help isolate terror elements.]
What, are you JUMPING TO THE CONCLUSION that muslims are responsible? What a bigot! How dare you profile a peaceful community! Everyone is equally suspect. Okay? Could have been a Gurkha with marital problems. Could have been a Tibetan monk refugee upset with the Indian government. Could have been the Dalai Lama! Okay? What would Sherlock have said? Huh? EVERYONE is suspect, ALLRIGHT? How do you know that RSS/VHP/BJP/RAW was not involved? Huh! WHO stand to gain most from this, eh? The Hindoos, of course! This is why they keep setting fire to themselves in trains and blowing themselves up REPEATEDLY!
I`m COMPLETELY surprised! What a closet-hindutva freak!
Racist! Casteist! Bride-burning foetus-killing hindoooo!!!
I`ll leave the rest to the regulars...
[In case of Varanasi attack, Muslim Indian community leaders must be involved to help isolate terror elements.]
What, are you JUMPING TO THE CONCLUSION that muslims are responsible? What a bigot! How dare you profile a peaceful community! Everyone is equally suspect. Okay? Could have been a Gurkha with marital problems. Could have been a Tibetan monk refugee upset with the Indian government. Could have been the Dalai Lama! Okay? What would Sherlock have said? Huh? EVERYONE is suspect, ALLRIGHT? How do you know that RSS/VHP/BJP/RAW was not involved? Huh! WHO stand to gain most from this, eh? The Hindoos, of course! This is why they keep setting fire to themselves in trains and blowing themselves up REPEATEDLY!
I`m COMPLETELY surprised! What a closet-hindutva freak!
Racist! Casteist! Bride-burning foetus-killing hindoooo!!!
I`ll leave the rest to the regulars...
#116 Posted by anil on March 11, 2006 2:03:37 am
Re: # 111
Ramanujam:
Please do not use lables like left or right. These are relics of cold war, are outdated and mean little in the knowledge and global economic society. Where the advantage comes not from the machinery or oil, but from intellectual capital. The Wall Street, Detriot, Silicon Valley, and even world class educational institutions and research centers of excellence will not be located in one place, as physical location will not limit the access to what they impart. One could be in Bangalore to get Stanford education, or in Silicon Valley to get IIM-Bangalore education. Intellectual capital and its application and benefits can be delivered from anywhere to anywhere. National boundaries are meaningless, therefore the capitalism will get redefined, however it fundamentals - jobs, capital and profits will remain still be the fundation.
Also, neither there is, nor there would ever be french court where people on the left side of the king could be called leftists, and on the right side could be called the rightists. The sooner we get over this left - right nosense the better it is to grow.
I would even go onto say that religion beyond one`s mind space would have very little impact. Once rest of the world is done with defeating Islamic fundamentalism, as I believe it will, the period that will follow, unlike the crusaders, will not replace it with another form of religious fundamentalism. When you study fundamentalism closely, you will notice, whether it is of Christianity, Hindutva, or Islamic kind, that fundamentalism is regressive in nature which in the past thrieved in naturally isolated communities and on delivering heavily modulated messages to convert others. This task was done in tandem by military and missionaries, monks, and mullahs.
As we move from today into future, we enter into a period of naturally open communication, and visualization of live images and video. These are completely opposite to the fertile grounds of fundamentalism. Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.
Terrorism has no label. It is not leftist or rightist. One can no longer define what is leftist or rightist. Now a days, it is a mere propoganda for politicians to fool certain types of people to gain following. This propaganda has fooled you; or may be you truly have a definition of the leftist and the rightist for the modern times. In case of the latter, I would certainly love to know and learn more, I always learn new things. I probably know, understand, believe and practicw capitalism more than you.
Best regards,
Anil Kapuria
Ramanujam:
Please do not use lables like left or right. These are relics of cold war, are outdated and mean little in the knowledge and global economic society. Where the advantage comes not from the machinery or oil, but from intellectual capital. The Wall Street, Detriot, Silicon Valley, and even world class educational institutions and research centers of excellence will not be located in one place, as physical location will not limit the access to what they impart. One could be in Bangalore to get Stanford education, or in Silicon Valley to get IIM-Bangalore education. Intellectual capital and its application and benefits can be delivered from anywhere to anywhere. National boundaries are meaningless, therefore the capitalism will get redefined, however it fundamentals - jobs, capital and profits will remain still be the fundation.
Also, neither there is, nor there would ever be french court where people on the left side of the king could be called leftists, and on the right side could be called the rightists. The sooner we get over this left - right nosense the better it is to grow.
I would even go onto say that religion beyond one`s mind space would have very little impact. Once rest of the world is done with defeating Islamic fundamentalism, as I believe it will, the period that will follow, unlike the crusaders, will not replace it with another form of religious fundamentalism. When you study fundamentalism closely, you will notice, whether it is of Christianity, Hindutva, or Islamic kind, that fundamentalism is regressive in nature which in the past thrieved in naturally isolated communities and on delivering heavily modulated messages to convert others. This task was done in tandem by military and missionaries, monks, and mullahs.
As we move from today into future, we enter into a period of naturally open communication, and visualization of live images and video. These are completely opposite to the fertile grounds of fundamentalism. Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.
Terrorism has no label. It is not leftist or rightist. One can no longer define what is leftist or rightist. Now a days, it is a mere propoganda for politicians to fool certain types of people to gain following. This propaganda has fooled you; or may be you truly have a definition of the leftist and the rightist for the modern times. In case of the latter, I would certainly love to know and learn more, I always learn new things. I probably know, understand, believe and practicw capitalism more than you.
Best regards,
Anil Kapuria
#117 Posted by bjkumar on March 11, 2006 4:37:19 am
#113
(Note: Versey is trying to impress everyone with long post of conversation she personally witnessed from somebody named Albert Einstein (and I always thought Einstein was a made-up cartoon character on one of the Saturday funnies) all of which only proves that he was a good debater and could whip (debate-wise) his professors`s behind any time and out-talk him (and clearly this Einstein never met Manto - or he would be still trying to defend the Special Theory of Relativity from grave - and to establish that it was him and not Jinnah who envisaged the original theory.))
Personally, as this discussion ``evolves``, I wish I could just get away from it all and sit cross-legged on those ghat steps, shutting vision to everything. But many here seem to have already accomplished that feat (the shutting off of vision part), without undergoing the intermediate steps.
Closely and resolutely followed by those who have accomplished the even more acrobatic feat of shutting off of the reality part!
PS:
[Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don`t have any thing called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat,]
The actual number is 459.67 (assuming he was talking Fahrenheits). And it is not ``hittable`` because of well-known laws of Physics!
In conclusion, EINSTEIN never said those words - unless we are talking of the made-up character!
#118 Posted by KaalChakra on March 11, 2006 6:37:02 am
I don`t see any wisdom in differentiating between Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims. That is, any more than one would between any other group of Indians and Pakistanis.
We have to ultimately focus on IDEAS. On individuals who adhere to, promote, and help sustain certain horrendous ideas.
Such a person could be Indian, Pakistani, Hindu or Muslim. It does not matter whether such a person is friendly or unfriendly, wears a suit or not, is religious or irreligious and male or female.
On the other hand, neither Ballukhan nor teshah pose a threat to anyone - irrespective of the countries they belong to.
Indian/Pakistani business is a red herring. It means nothing.
If that seems contraintuitive, let`s ask ourselves two simple questions, focusing for a moment only on Islam: (1) Where have some of the most hateful forms of the religion been born?, and (2) who have been among the most rabid promoters of these supremacist and violent doctrines worldwide? We may not want to stomach them, but the answers are: (1) right here in India, on our own soil, and (2) by Indians - our neighbors and day-to-day friends, living along side with us. For those who like such things, one can even invent a name for this pattern - Zakir Naik phenomenon.
We have to ultimately focus on IDEAS. On individuals who adhere to, promote, and help sustain certain horrendous ideas.
Such a person could be Indian, Pakistani, Hindu or Muslim. It does not matter whether such a person is friendly or unfriendly, wears a suit or not, is religious or irreligious and male or female.
On the other hand, neither Ballukhan nor teshah pose a threat to anyone - irrespective of the countries they belong to.
Indian/Pakistani business is a red herring. It means nothing.
If that seems contraintuitive, let`s ask ourselves two simple questions, focusing for a moment only on Islam: (1) Where have some of the most hateful forms of the religion been born?, and (2) who have been among the most rabid promoters of these supremacist and violent doctrines worldwide? We may not want to stomach them, but the answers are: (1) right here in India, on our own soil, and (2) by Indians - our neighbors and day-to-day friends, living along side with us. For those who like such things, one can even invent a name for this pattern - Zakir Naik phenomenon.
#119 Posted by rsridhar on March 11, 2006 6:46:31 am
re:#113 by FarzanaVersey
I don`t know who lives in St Louis. I certainly don`t.
Yes, faith is the proof that God exists and we all know it.
Einstein demonstrated it nicely even as a student. Which is why they say he was a genius.
PM Disraeli once asked his minister: what is the proof that God exists?
Latter`s answer was: The Jew.
He too was talking about faith.
A student asked his Zen master (who was well known for teaching thr` dramatic effect): if God exists master, why can`t we see him?
Zen master slapped him hard on his cheek.
``Master``, said the student incredulously, ``why did u slap me?``
Master said:``why, what happened?``
Student said: ``it hurts``
Master: ``show me the hurt``
Student: ``i can only feel it; i can`t show it to u``
Master said triumphantly`` that is how God is; you can feel Him but u can`t see Him``
I am sure the student wished his Master was less dramatic!
Sridhar
I don`t know who lives in St Louis. I certainly don`t.
Yes, faith is the proof that God exists and we all know it.
Einstein demonstrated it nicely even as a student. Which is why they say he was a genius.
PM Disraeli once asked his minister: what is the proof that God exists?
Latter`s answer was: The Jew.
He too was talking about faith.
A student asked his Zen master (who was well known for teaching thr` dramatic effect): if God exists master, why can`t we see him?
Zen master slapped him hard on his cheek.
``Master``, said the student incredulously, ``why did u slap me?``
Master said:``why, what happened?``
Student said: ``it hurts``
Master: ``show me the hurt``
Student: ``i can only feel it; i can`t show it to u``
Master said triumphantly`` that is how God is; you can feel Him but u can`t see Him``
I am sure the student wished his Master was less dramatic!
Sridhar
#120 Posted by rsridhar on March 11, 2006 7:13:20 am
re:#90 by kaalchakra
For those detractors who want some dramatic response from India, i would say take a look at the history.
India has to do nothing and Pak keeps digging its own grave. Pakistan, by its own folly and hateful ideology, has been on the path of self-destruction for quite sometime now.
To justify its existence as an Islamic State, it had to constantly prove it is better than India. This lead to Operation Gibraltor which sowed the seeds of 1971 war and eventual dismemberment of the country.
What did India do? Zilch. It did respond to defend itself in 1971 and help liberate Bangladesh but it did nothing dramatic there. It did not impose the war. War was Pak`s own folly, following discrimination against the Bangla population on its east wing.
Then started this low scale terrorism in Kashmir. This is now boomeranging on the nation state. Baluchistan is burning. There is Shia Sunni rift. People are disenchanted with the military. And most importantly, US is beginnig to understand the dubious role of Mushy in his dealings with US army.
It is important to understand why Paki terrorists have shifted their venue outside Kashmir. India has secured the LOC so well that infiltration is down to a minimum. US and other agencies are monitoring the LOC closely for any infiltration. Kashmir insurgency is down to a manageable level. Hence, ISI with a nod from Army brass, has decided to go for soft targets and try and create mayheim in India.
This is going to be hard to defend. What should India do?
On a short term basis India should:
1. monitor closely all the major religious places of worship including the mosques. Pak terrorists may this time strike at a mosque and IMs may think hindus are retaliating. Nothing could be worse.
2. monitor all the high tech areas, financial institutions, institutions of repute like IITs, IIMs, etc
3. gather information about the previous blasts and make public the name of culprits and their connection to Pakistan, if any.
4. Share intelligence with US on a continuous basis.
Long term plan:
It is clear to most Indians that existence of Pakistan at its present form is not in India`s interest. India should strive to do ``another 1971`` on this apolegy of a nation.
1. Give back to Pakis 10 times what we get. Pak is a state that is withering away and this should not be so difficult. One can make use of Shia-sunni rift, disenchantment with Punjabis among minorities etc.
2. Mobilize army in Afghanistan as a legitimate way of defending India`s interest. US has given the go ahead in managing democracy in Afghanistan. I see this as a green signal to take over command of various India-built structures that are prone to terrorist attacks. For eg the Indira Gandhi Hospital in Kabul, the parliament, the Indian embassies. Afghanistan needs a sizeable Indian army to defend it.
3. Having mobilized the army, open a second front from the Afghanistan side. Train Afghans to enter Pakistan from that border to defend the border as needed.
4. Mobilize international opinion against Pakistan and urge US to label Pak as a terrorist nation.
I think the day is not far away when 4. will happen.
Once that happens, there should be a joint US-India-Israel action to neutralize Pak nuclear facilities. Pakistan should be carved up the way Yugoslavia was. Sindh can be granted independence and may join India if it wishes to. Baluchistan would be an independent entity. NWFP will go with Afghanistan and Punjab (Paki) will alone remain. It can call itself Pakistan or anything else but it would not matter.
Sridhar
For those detractors who want some dramatic response from India, i would say take a look at the history.
India has to do nothing and Pak keeps digging its own grave. Pakistan, by its own folly and hateful ideology, has been on the path of self-destruction for quite sometime now.
To justify its existence as an Islamic State, it had to constantly prove it is better than India. This lead to Operation Gibraltor which sowed the seeds of 1971 war and eventual dismemberment of the country.
What did India do? Zilch. It did respond to defend itself in 1971 and help liberate Bangladesh but it did nothing dramatic there. It did not impose the war. War was Pak`s own folly, following discrimination against the Bangla population on its east wing.
Then started this low scale terrorism in Kashmir. This is now boomeranging on the nation state. Baluchistan is burning. There is Shia Sunni rift. People are disenchanted with the military. And most importantly, US is beginnig to understand the dubious role of Mushy in his dealings with US army.
It is important to understand why Paki terrorists have shifted their venue outside Kashmir. India has secured the LOC so well that infiltration is down to a minimum. US and other agencies are monitoring the LOC closely for any infiltration. Kashmir insurgency is down to a manageable level. Hence, ISI with a nod from Army brass, has decided to go for soft targets and try and create mayheim in India.
This is going to be hard to defend. What should India do?
On a short term basis India should:
1. monitor closely all the major religious places of worship including the mosques. Pak terrorists may this time strike at a mosque and IMs may think hindus are retaliating. Nothing could be worse.
2. monitor all the high tech areas, financial institutions, institutions of repute like IITs, IIMs, etc
3. gather information about the previous blasts and make public the name of culprits and their connection to Pakistan, if any.
4. Share intelligence with US on a continuous basis.
Long term plan:
It is clear to most Indians that existence of Pakistan at its present form is not in India`s interest. India should strive to do ``another 1971`` on this apolegy of a nation.
1. Give back to Pakis 10 times what we get. Pak is a state that is withering away and this should not be so difficult. One can make use of Shia-sunni rift, disenchantment with Punjabis among minorities etc.
2. Mobilize army in Afghanistan as a legitimate way of defending India`s interest. US has given the go ahead in managing democracy in Afghanistan. I see this as a green signal to take over command of various India-built structures that are prone to terrorist attacks. For eg the Indira Gandhi Hospital in Kabul, the parliament, the Indian embassies. Afghanistan needs a sizeable Indian army to defend it.
3. Having mobilized the army, open a second front from the Afghanistan side. Train Afghans to enter Pakistan from that border to defend the border as needed.
4. Mobilize international opinion against Pakistan and urge US to label Pak as a terrorist nation.
I think the day is not far away when 4. will happen.
Once that happens, there should be a joint US-India-Israel action to neutralize Pak nuclear facilities. Pakistan should be carved up the way Yugoslavia was. Sindh can be granted independence and may join India if it wishes to. Baluchistan would be an independent entity. NWFP will go with Afghanistan and Punjab (Paki) will alone remain. It can call itself Pakistan or anything else but it would not matter.
Sridhar
#121 Posted by rsridhar on March 11, 2006 7:22:18 am
re: Ramanujam`s post
(Those people who planted the bombs might have been Pakistanis, but they had local help, as happens ALWAYS.)
Or Kashmiris brought from outside with hope of a big reward and solution to the problem! There are so many gullible people in India. Are u sure a poor hindu cannot be bought to do this job?
That is why institutions are so important. Institutons that can look at this without prejudice and bring the terrorists to justice. There are some bad IMs but not all are bad. The point is: who is behind all this. Neutralize that person/agency and u have solved the problem.
Let us not forget that India`s own record is not good. Indian police is corrupt. So are her politicians, bureacrats. Terrorists do this with impunity because India`s underbelly is soft.
Sridhar
(Those people who planted the bombs might have been Pakistanis, but they had local help, as happens ALWAYS.)
Or Kashmiris brought from outside with hope of a big reward and solution to the problem! There are so many gullible people in India. Are u sure a poor hindu cannot be bought to do this job?
That is why institutions are so important. Institutons that can look at this without prejudice and bring the terrorists to justice. There are some bad IMs but not all are bad. The point is: who is behind all this. Neutralize that person/agency and u have solved the problem.
Let us not forget that India`s own record is not good. Indian police is corrupt. So are her politicians, bureacrats. Terrorists do this with impunity because India`s underbelly is soft.
Sridhar
#122 Posted by hamidm2 on March 11, 2006 7:26:17 am
Re: # 120
rsridhar,
......... a long time ago i had suggested you should try your hand (no pun intended) at sex ........ you might find it more gratifying :)
rsridhar,
......... a long time ago i had suggested you should try your hand (no pun intended) at sex ........ you might find it more gratifying :)
#123 Posted by rsridhar on March 11, 2006 7:34:24 am
re: Anil`s post
(Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.)
There is something called faith.
Do not confuse faith with technology. Both can perfectly thrive together.
I work with latest technology in my profession taking care of extremely premature babies. That does not mean i do not believe Hanuman flew and brought Sanjeevani.
Keep your trash to yourself.
You are full of bull.
Besides, if u have the intellectual capacity (which i doubt u do), read The Autobiography of a Yogi. Science and faith are combined perfectly in that book. There is no confusion. If people like u do not understand certain things, it does not automatically mean those things did not happen. May be Science has not developed enough to understand them well at present and may develop in future. There is always that possibility.
Nobody doubts that Mohammed received divine message in a cave. I have been critical of the book mainly because Md (or the people who followed him) seem to have juxtaposed their own egos within that message. Muslim holy book has very good things mixed with bad things which make me wonder if somebody did not tamper with the original message.
Same with miracles of Christ. Present day science cannot explain them but they are well explained in the book that i mentioned. It is good to be a sceptic but also keep an open mind to all possibilities. Even 100 years ago, flying in air would be considered a miracle but we are doing it routinely now. Miracle is only when it can`t be explained.
Sridhar
(Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.)
There is something called faith.
Do not confuse faith with technology. Both can perfectly thrive together.
I work with latest technology in my profession taking care of extremely premature babies. That does not mean i do not believe Hanuman flew and brought Sanjeevani.
Keep your trash to yourself.
You are full of bull.
Besides, if u have the intellectual capacity (which i doubt u do), read The Autobiography of a Yogi. Science and faith are combined perfectly in that book. There is no confusion. If people like u do not understand certain things, it does not automatically mean those things did not happen. May be Science has not developed enough to understand them well at present and may develop in future. There is always that possibility.
Nobody doubts that Mohammed received divine message in a cave. I have been critical of the book mainly because Md (or the people who followed him) seem to have juxtaposed their own egos within that message. Muslim holy book has very good things mixed with bad things which make me wonder if somebody did not tamper with the original message.
Same with miracles of Christ. Present day science cannot explain them but they are well explained in the book that i mentioned. It is good to be a sceptic but also keep an open mind to all possibilities. Even 100 years ago, flying in air would be considered a miracle but we are doing it routinely now. Miracle is only when it can`t be explained.
Sridhar
#124 Posted by kalihawa on March 11, 2006 7:47:25 am
Re: # 118
``(1) Where have some of the most hateful forms of the religion been born?, and (2) who have been among the most rabid promoters of these supremacist and violent doctrines worldwide? We may not want to stomach them, but the answers are: (1) right here in India, on our own soil, and (2) by Indians - our neighbors and day-to-day friends, living along side with us. For those who like such things, one can even invent a name for this pattern - Zakir Naik phenomenon. ``
Will you please elaborate?
``(1) Where have some of the most hateful forms of the religion been born?, and (2) who have been among the most rabid promoters of these supremacist and violent doctrines worldwide? We may not want to stomach them, but the answers are: (1) right here in India, on our own soil, and (2) by Indians - our neighbors and day-to-day friends, living along side with us. For those who like such things, one can even invent a name for this pattern - Zakir Naik phenomenon. ``
Will you please elaborate?
#125 Posted by bjkumar on March 11, 2006 8:14:23 am
#122 Hamidm Mian,
Which PART of #120 was your interact in response to? (It sounded like a ``low blow`` to me!)
The thesis Sridhar presented in #120 reads to me as follows:
``Carving up Pakistan - as we currently know it as a political entity - is in the interests of India - therefore India should take its `principled` stand and extend its `moral and diplomatic` support to such an effort (apparently, the various Pakistani governments have been trying to do it solo and are making a mess of this `noble` cause!)``
I believe you should response to his thesis at hand - not make wisecracks.
Also, you should stop trying to apply your simplistic single solution to ALL the problems of this world.
(I mean the ``adrak``, of course!)
#126 Posted by Ramanujan on March 11, 2006 8:25:20 am
#116 by anil
[Please do not use lables like left or right.]
Ok. But only if you stop using labels like the following:
``These are relics of cold war, are outdated and mean little in the knowledge and global economic society. Where the advantage comes not from the machinery or oil, but from intellectual capital. The Wall Street, Detriot, Silicon Valley, and even world class educational institutions and research centers of excellence will not be located in one place, as physical location will not limit the access to what they impart. One could be in Bangalore to get Stanford education, or in Silicon Valley to get IIM-Bangalore education. Intellectual capital and its application and benefits can be delivered from anywhere to anywhere. National boundaries are meaningless, therefore the capitalism will get redefined, however it fundamentals - jobs, capital and profits will remain still be the fundation.
Also, neither there is, nor there would ever be french court where people on the left side of the king could be called leftists, and on the right side could be called the rightists. The sooner we get over this left - right nosense the better it is to grow.
I would even go onto say that religion beyond one`s mind space would have very little impact. Once rest of the world is done with defeating Islamic fundamentalism, as I believe it will, the period that will follow, unlike the crusaders, will not replace it with another form of religious fundamentalism. When you study fundamentalism closely, you will notice, whether it is of Christianity, Hindutva, or Islamic kind, that fundamentalism is regressive in nature which in the past thrieved in naturally isolated communities and on delivering heavily modulated messages to convert others. This task was done in tandem by military and missionaries, monks, and mullahs. ``
[As we move from today into future, we enter into a period of naturally open communication, and visualization of live images and video. These are completely opposite to the fertile grounds of fundamentalism.]
No no no no. Believe me, those fundamentalists are hitting those porn sites too. I tell you they are ``visualizing`` ``live images and video`` like anything. I heard that one 9/11 attacker was into ``Jennycam`` or something quite racy. :)
[Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.]
Now you are going to have Tahmed Mullah on your a$$. Are you questioning the authenticity of the Koran? Aethist! Nitwit! Hindoo! :)
[Terrorism has no label. It is not leftist or rightist. One can no longer define what is leftist or rightist. Now a days, it is a mere propoganda for politicians to fool certain types of people to gain following. This propaganda has fooled you; or may be you truly have a definition of the leftist and the rightist for the modern times. In case of the latter, I would certainly love to know and learn more, I always learn new things.]
I can. Ask me.
Leftist - commie pinkos.
Rightist - those who are right. Like me. :)
[I probably know, understand, believe and practicw capitalism more than you. ]
Really? That`s very cool.. How does one ``practice`` capitalism? Do you do it every day? In the morning or in the evening? Is that a label - ``Capitalism``?
:)
[Please do not use lables like left or right.]
Ok. But only if you stop using labels like the following:
``These are relics of cold war, are outdated and mean little in the knowledge and global economic society. Where the advantage comes not from the machinery or oil, but from intellectual capital. The Wall Street, Detriot, Silicon Valley, and even world class educational institutions and research centers of excellence will not be located in one place, as physical location will not limit the access to what they impart. One could be in Bangalore to get Stanford education, or in Silicon Valley to get IIM-Bangalore education. Intellectual capital and its application and benefits can be delivered from anywhere to anywhere. National boundaries are meaningless, therefore the capitalism will get redefined, however it fundamentals - jobs, capital and profits will remain still be the fundation.
Also, neither there is, nor there would ever be french court where people on the left side of the king could be called leftists, and on the right side could be called the rightists. The sooner we get over this left - right nosense the better it is to grow.
I would even go onto say that religion beyond one`s mind space would have very little impact. Once rest of the world is done with defeating Islamic fundamentalism, as I believe it will, the period that will follow, unlike the crusaders, will not replace it with another form of religious fundamentalism. When you study fundamentalism closely, you will notice, whether it is of Christianity, Hindutva, or Islamic kind, that fundamentalism is regressive in nature which in the past thrieved in naturally isolated communities and on delivering heavily modulated messages to convert others. This task was done in tandem by military and missionaries, monks, and mullahs. ``
[As we move from today into future, we enter into a period of naturally open communication, and visualization of live images and video. These are completely opposite to the fertile grounds of fundamentalism.]
No no no no. Believe me, those fundamentalists are hitting those porn sites too. I tell you they are ``visualizing`` ``live images and video`` like anything. I heard that one 9/11 attacker was into ``Jennycam`` or something quite racy. :)
[Therefore, fundamentalism cannot survive in such times. No one will be able to say and expect people to blindly follow that dead Christ came to life after three days 2,000 years ago, or Mohammad got Allahs words in a cave 1,400 years ago, and Hanuman flew and brought the entire mountain carrying herbal medicine for dying Laxman thousands years ago. Such belief systems will be heavily questioned and discarded for new set of belief and faith systems.]
Now you are going to have Tahmed Mullah on your a$$. Are you questioning the authenticity of the Koran? Aethist! Nitwit! Hindoo! :)
[Terrorism has no label. It is not leftist or rightist. One can no longer define what is leftist or rightist. Now a days, it is a mere propoganda for politicians to fool certain types of people to gain following. This propaganda has fooled you; or may be you truly have a definition of the leftist and the rightist for the modern times. In case of the latter, I would certainly love to know and learn more, I always learn new things.]
I can. Ask me.
Leftist - commie pinkos.
Rightist - those who are right. Like me. :)
[I probably know, understand, believe and practicw capitalism more than you. ]
Really? That`s very cool.. How does one ``practice`` capitalism? Do you do it every day? In the morning or in the evening? Is that a label - ``Capitalism``?
:)
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