The Quest for American Popularity in Pakistan

Re: # 122

My apologies for putting you in that baba saheb dress!

Let me correct myself-

Sir, You need to get that beard untangled from your nada before you can speak for the muslims of this planet............

manto, a lot of secular people supported the iranian revolution thinking that clerics wanted democracy. we know their fate after mullahs came to power. btw, i dont take the great khan seriously. he has 1 seat to show for 10 yrs of effort. awam is not buying his agenda despite the fact that he gets more spotlight in the media than most popular politicians. in fact great khan cant get elected from his own city tells you pretty much what the awam thinks of his agenda.

people tend to forget that until the mid-seventies when bhutto started the islamisation drive, turkey and pak were fairly similar in terms of culture. for instance, bars. clubs and gambling were a part of urban pak society much like in turkey. also funny to see fundos arguing for real democracy. i think we need to ask them their views on iranian political system.

Faisal...

A very well thought out post and I agree with you completely.

The emergence of Erdogan as a populist Islamist politician who nonetheless is willing to accept a secular state structure (with a small s instead of military`s capital S) and even protect it while also remaining true to his Islamic agenda is the direct result of Turkey`s experiment with Republican democracy that started in 1924.

However your blanket denounciation of Imran Khan in the same way as Jamaatias and other Islamists is wrong... the New Yorker interestingly invented a very nice term for the man ``Islamic populist``... take out the anti-American noise the great Khan is making at the moment... and you will find that Imran Khan and Teyyib Erdogan are almost entirely similar in their political views...


By the way :







Liz was married to Hugh grant who is now going to marry Jemima - Khan`s ex wife...

here is another muslim country with a history fairly similar to that of pak whose citizens have a love hate relationship with the u.s. note that this is a person from an islamist background and this a country with a history of corruption and military rule like pak. main difference is that turkish establishment has followed an overtly secular agenda although this agenda has not stuck a chord with the awam nor have secular parties gained any traction. also noteworthy that views of the islamist pm radically differs from the views of nut job pak islamists like imran khan/jamatis and his recommendations seem more in line with that of pak government`s recommendation to uncle sam.

Tayyip Erdogan
After Ataturk
Wall Street Journal

ANKARA -- ``They might ban you from re-entering the United States,`` Tayyip Erdogan says with a smile. I`ve just told him I`ve been to see the anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian Turkish blockbuster ``Valley of the Wolves -- Iraq.`` And the Turkish prime minister deflects my follow-up about whether he`s seen it as well. ``What did you think of the movie?`` he says, turning interviewer himself. To which I reply that it made me sad. While there are many things one might criticize about U.S. policy in Iraq -- and I do go out of my way to concede this point -- the suggestion that U.S. troops are murdering and dismembering Iraqis to facilitate a Jewish organ-selling scheme isn`t one of them.

...Only a year ago many intellectuals and politicians in Turkey seemed to be in the grip of anti-American madness. Headlines calling U.S. soldiers ``Murderer Johnny`` were the norm atop newspaper articles describing imagined atrocities such as the use of chemical weapons -- and, yes, organ theft -- committed against civilians in Iraq. Turkey`s opposition leader accused the CIA of plotting an internal party coup against him. And there were reports that secret U.S. nuclear testing had been the real cause of the Indian Ocean tsunami. Needless to say, this wasn`t exactly becoming behavior for a NATO ally -- and I said so, in a February 2005 op-ed piece on these pages (available on OpinionJournal.com) that might be described, fairly, as having pulled no punches in its account of Turkish anti-Americanism.

...To his immense credit, Mr. Erdogan does not himself traffic in anti-American rhetoric. And he reaffirms the value of Turkey`s ``strategic partnership`` with the U.S. But neither will he just come straight out and condemn this movie, which is probably the most religiously and racially divisive film to reach mass audiences in Europe since World War II.

``I believe the people who made this movie took media reports as their basis . . . for example Abu Ghraib prison -- we have seen this on TV, and now we are watching Guantanamo Bay in the world media, and of course it could be that this movie was prepared under these influences,`` Mr. Erdogan says. ``Of course,`` I reply, ``but do you believe that many Turks have such a view of America, that we`re the kind of people who`d go to Iraq and kill people to take their organs?``

Mr. Erdogan: ``These kind of things happen in the world. If it`s not happening in Iraq, then it`s happening in other countries.`` Me: ``Which kind of things? Killing people to take their organs?`` Mr. Erdogan: ``I`m not saying they are being killed. . . . There are people in poverty who use this as a means to get money. But of course the things portrayed in the movie are different things.`` Well, thanks for clearing that up!

I am a little disappointed. Mr. Erdogan tells me he wants an ``alliance of civilizations, not a clash of civilizations.`` He tells me he wants Turkey to be a ``bridge`` between East and West. But that role would seem to require a little more leadership on such obvious cases of defamation.

I move on to the issue of what America can do to improve its image in Turkey. Mr. Erdogan cites ``developments in Iraq`` as the main source of the problem. I ask if he`s uncomfortable with the U.S. strategy of promoting democracy in the region. He tells me that ``As Turkey, we are trying to convey our own deep experience with democracy to the region. That`s why we have taken part in the [U.S.-backed] Greater Middle Eastern project. . . . We`re working on democracy, human rights and the rule of law.`` But he stresses that ``we believe that all problems can be solved and should be solved at the negotiating table`` and that ``pushing, pressuring is not going to give any results.`` The bottom line: ``We have the same idea as the United States regarding the goal of the project but maybe the method which should be used is different.``

...Ever since Mr. Erdogan`s Islamic-oriented Justice and Development Party swept to power on 35% of the vote in 2002 elections (amazingly, only one other party passed the 10% threshold for parliamentary representation), people have questioned whether his smooth manner wasn`t cover for a more radical agenda to fundamentally change the secular character of the Turkish Republic established by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. I see no reason to believe this is the case.

Socially, Justice and Development might be best analogized to ``family values`` conservatives here in the U.S. -- albeit a bit extreme, perhaps Mormonesque, in their dedication to clean living. (No alcohol, obviously, and smoking, too, is frowned on.) Economically, Mr. Erdogan would fit comfortably into the mainstream of American conservatism. His is the most effective government to lead Turkey for more than a decade, and he has used his large majority in Parliament to pass the hard but necessary reforms needed to prepare Turkey for membership in the European Union and in the modern world generally.

No, if there is any cause for concern here, it would be the undeniable fact that Turkey`s first successful overtly Islamic prime minister has cultural and foreign policy compasses different from those of earlier Turkish leaders, who have inclined steadily toward the West. I sense a deeper estrangement at work than mere disagreement over Iraq, and whether or not to use force to remove roadblocks to democracy in the Middle East. ``When we took office there was a Turkey which was not having talks with its neighbors. Now Turkey is having a dialogue with all of them. That`s why we don`t want any bombs to fall anymore in our region,`` Mr. Erdogan says.

As I said earlier :

India : Hindu
Pakistan : Muslim
America : Christian

Have I left anything unsaid?

re: #117

Ballu, our national dress, the shalwar kameez, has no zippers. We still like to wear it wih pride. Just like Hindus like to wear cargo pants, mesh tops, bikinis and mini skirts with pride. Aping (the West) comes naturally to them. Worshipping Hanuman has its benefits.

hamidm...

Thankyou for pointing out the awful smell emanating from a mixture of heeng and halwa... on this board.

[I was in pakistan just last december and I notice how there is a sort of schizophrenia in the country: people are craving for the West, especially the US, whilst at the same time, pretending they loath it. ]

You have given a very good analysis. Schizophrenia among pakistanis is also becoming common in Australia. Here is a pakistani oz councillor describing how it happens, in a chowk article. He says pakistanis in australia lead a double life: one at home and one outside.

According to him, that is why they end up gangraping very young australian children or in sudden fits of schizophrenia begin to believe they are actually western australian women.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00006415

.............. pheew ! (as i hold my nose and walk past) ..........


.......... i see that the strong smell of heeng, halwa and hatred on this board has attracted frau sadna, hisexcellency, gujjubania and others of their ilk ............

Hi Sal! Salams, yaar. Haven`t heard from you in ages!! email me at asifjuk@gmail.com. I need to chat.any news from B?
Thanks!
Asif
***

Interesting article; I agree with most of what you`ve written. I was in pakistan just last december and I notice how there is a sort of schizophrenia in the country: people are craving for the West, especially the US, whilst at the same time, pretending they loath it.
I think it is lack of achievement on the global scale, the social problems which beset pakistan, the lack of opportunities for the youth, and a justifiable pride in being part of a global Ummah which was once great which cause this.

The biggest single complaint though I heard was NOT about america or any other nation but about the corruption of the government-from local level to the president and from the local chapraasi to the governor which is rife throughout pakistani society. it is a vicious circle because the very same people who complain themselves are corrupt too since `it is part of society here!.

I think pakistan needs something radical to happen to change itself: a complete change of priorities and realignment of national objectives with education at the forefront. this will require massive public spending on education on an unprecedented scale. but this in turn will require peace with india. on this i think we have to face reality and admit that any peace will largely be on indian terms as they are america`s chosen strategic long term partner in the region and india is a rising global power.

this is where the US could help by providing such funding and by not supporting dictators just for its own short-term tactical goals in the region (`war on terror`) and insist on real democracy in pakistan.

HisExcellency

HE your beard is struck in your pant`s zipper...................can you first get it off before your try to sermonize to the muslim of this planet!!!

This is for HisExcellency -

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop bullying Pathans, Baluchs, Sindhis, Mohajirs, Shias, Ahmedis, Hindus and Christians. Dont kill Shias and Christians in their mosques and churches. Dont forcibly convert Christians and Hindus.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Give Baluchis, Pathans, Sindhis and Mohajirs their freedom. They do not want to live in Pakistan at all. They want to get out and form their own countries - Baluchistan, Pashtunistan, Sindhudesh and Jinnahpur. Give them their right to self-determination and their God given right to follow their own destiny. They do not want to live with Punjabis any more.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Punjabis stop pretending that you are Afghan warriors. This is a huge delusion. Your ancestors were the hindus that got enslaved and raped by Ghaznavi and Ghauri. Your ancestors lost their temples in Multan and Lahore. Afghanistan has clearly told you NOT to name your missiles after Ghaznavi and Ghauri, since they were not Pakistani. Your ancestors lost to the Sikhs who are only 2% of India. Therefore, your entire lineage is of losers. In future you will lose to Afghanistan and India again. If 2% Sikhs could rule you, imagine what 2% sikhs and 98% hindus/muslims from India will do to you some day.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop misusing and abusing Islam as a religion. Islam is practiced by 120 million Indians and they are happy, peaceful and prosperous. You have taken a great religion and transformed it into an ugly, grotesque cult that is based on jihadi violence which has turned you into rabid dogs. That kind of violence will be replied by severe counter-violence. The world knows how to kill rabid dogs. If you do not clean up, US and India will enter your country, throw out your nukes and set things straight.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop dreaming of a Punjabi empire in Afghanistan and Kashmir. It will never happen. It never existed in history and it will never exist in the future. Afghanistan used to loot and rape you every 2 years. They will never live under Punjabi empire disguised by Islam. Already Afghanistan is best friends with India. Also Punjabis never ruled Kashmir. It was ruled by Indians always. The Indian muslim kings from Delhi ruled Kashmir, the Sikhs from India ruled Kashmir and then the Dogras from India ruled Kashmir. No one from Pakistan ever ruled Kashmir. So it will never happen.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop spending your money on your stupid Punjabi muslim military. It is the most useless organization in the world, except for doing Chaprasi duty for the US. It has not won a single war but has lost to everyone. It lost half of your territory in 1971 to Indians led by a Sikh Gen Jagjit Singh Arora. It failed in Kargil. It has ruled you for 2/3 of your existence and eats up most of your resources. Now it is killing Baluch and Pathans and doing chaprasi or servant work for US.

Nah I take it back. Too optimistic. Even that you couldn`t do without help from some chinese hands.

[actually use a teeny weeny one just to see the look on everyone`s faces.]

If you pakis really had nuclear weapons, your itching fingers would have pressed the button long back. Your bomb is like everything else of yours - delusional fantasy. Keep stroking it hard hoping for a 420kiloton mess on your hands.

#91 by HisExcellency

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We must all build nuclear weapons and help each other do the same.

Let me add the following at the end ... and actually use a teeny weeny one just to see the look on everyone`s faces.