The Quest for American Popularity in Pakistan

Some obvious signs from God that Allah or the Gibreel dude never had any tete-a-tete with the 1st grader`s soulmate:


1) In spite of some islamic countries having oil, their per-capita income is still very low.

2) All Islamic countries are backward, and falling further behind every day.

3) Muslims die in far greater numbers any day of the year than people of any other religion.

4) Pakistan is forced to suck up to China, who are probably the toughest on Muslims of any country.

5) China`s economy is booming.

6) Pakistan gets kicked around by virtually everybody.

7) The (un)holy land of Saudi Arabia is under the thumb of America.


....to be continued

zeemax...

Harish never has arguments... so profanity comes naturally to him.

:)

Harish...

None of the statements that you attribute to Jinnah call for violence. Other statements are attributed to his followers... Meanwhile we know Gandhi`s follower Patel was encouraging Hindus to kill... so that must be put under his balance sheet don`t you feel? But yes Jinnah was wrong in calling for DAD... he should`ve known how machivellian and bigoted Gandhi was... to use it and then blame it on ML.

#277 by Mantolives

Manto .. your very clinically effecient Gandhi bashing appears to have had a traumatic effect upon these guys bringing out the worst in them .. they have no further comments other than !@#$%^&*. So be it ..

Amen.

#277 by Mantolives

[Don`t call me names simply because you can`t produce a single statement from Jinnah calling for violence.]

Abay Chutiye, here are a few statements from JInnah and other Muslim Leaguers before the Direct Action Day. Now don`t try to wriggle out by saying that some of the more provocative statements were not from Jinnah. As the supremo of the ML, Jinnah was responsible by implication. It is also instructive to note that not once did he called on his leaders to stop making such provocative statements.

Jinnah`s statements

“What we have done to-day is the most historic act in our history. Never have we in the whole history of the League done anything except by constitutional methods. But now we are forced into this position. Today we bid good-bye to constitutional methods.”

Again, referring to the new threat and programme of Direct Action, he said,

“Today we have forged a pistol and are in a position to use it.”

Again, talking of the threat of Direct Action he said:

“We mean every word of it. We do not believe in equivocation.”

Then he quoted the Persian Poet, Firdausi, in these words:

“If you seek peace, we do not want War. But if you want War, we will accept it unhesitatingly.”

Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Khan, later the Prime Minister of Pakistan, on the implications of the Direct Action:

“Direct Action means resort to non-constitutional methods, and that can take any form which may suit the conditions under which we live. We cannot eliminate any methods. Direct Action means any action against the Law.”

Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar, later a member of the Pakistan Government, declared:

“Pakistan can only be achieved through shedding blood of ourselves, and if need be, and if opportunity arose, by shedding blood of others. Muslims are no believers in Ahimsa.”

[If one is jailed only for calling for violence... then one can imagine that Gandhi was arrested so many times.]

Even his sworn enemy Jinnah never accused Gandhi of being violent, so we now know you are dumber than the old crook.

[... Jinnah didn`t cause the violence.]

Abay G@@ndu, notwithstanding your innocent protestations, the call to DAD was issued by Jinnah, so he will be blamed for it.

re:#275 by Mantolives
abey chootiye,
The world believes mahatma to be an apostle of nonviolence.
You think that he was a fraud.
Now, either you are right or the rest of the world is right.
What makes u so smart that u know what the rest of the world does not?
You are no Einstein.
All u got is a lot of hatred for India and Gandhi.
As i have already told u:
Jaa key apnee bibi kee g@and mein sar chupa ley.
Chootiya sala.
Sridhar

harish_hyd #274
India has luckily left that period behind. Now it is the US which has to pay up. :)

#278 many people, american generals eg (forget karzais admin), foreign diplomats have alluded to possibility that ``elements in the pakistani government`` are helping al-quida and OLB. this cannot be proven like the pentagon bombing by an airplane..no pictures. i am sure you or arjun can find these allegations by googling. this is the classic deniability methodology used in indian kashmir too..but now many on the chowk dont deny it as much.

#272 by stuka and other cornered cats.

Selling out the duo means collecting 50 million but killing the golden goose.

I had said the Pashtuns haven`t sold out the duo. Now tell me how are they collecting billions through a `golden goose` and risking Guantanamo forever instead of pocketing a cool 50 mil PLUS a permanent residence in Miami alongwith a fresh identity?

Or, are you suggesting the state of Pakistan is hiding the duo from Bush to keep milking US for logistical support payments? If you are then that will be a fresh and `intriguing` theory. Prove it.

Dear Harish...

Don`t call me names simply because you can`t produce a single statement from Jinnah calling for violence. If one is jailed only for calling for violence... then one can imagine that Gandhi was arrested so many times.

In the end... beyond the tactical mistake of allowing a corrupt machiavellian bigot like Gandhi to take advantage of the Direct Action Day and turn it into an orgy of violence to blamed on the Muslim League... Jinnah didn`t cause the violence. He should`ve however calculated how mischievious and underhanded Gandhi can be ... but like I said before Jinnah was no Ambedkar when it came to understanding the mindset of the mischief mongering Mahatma...

#275 by Mantolives

[Not only can they not produce a single statement from Jinnah calling for violence (The strike was peaceful all over India)... but the numbers of Muslims dead in Calcutta vs Hindus dead prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was Gandhi`s goons who were responsible for violence ... while Gandhiji was fooling the world with his so called ``non violence.]

Abay Chutiye, then tell us why Jinnah was sleeping on the floors anticipating arrest as reported by the Time magazine? Why was he sh!tting in his pants if he hadn`t done anything wrong? And why did Stanley Wolpert (whose words were once your gospel truth) and countless other historians ascribe the violence to the old a$$hole`s call to Direct Action?

And a$$hole, how does the number of Hindus and Muslims dead prove that Jinnah wasn`t beyond it? Do you talk out of your rear or do you put some thinking into it?

#274

So I see racist casteist Hindu bigot medieval fascist Mahatma`s followers lying again ...

Not only can they not produce a single statement from Jinnah calling for violence (The strike was peaceful all over India)... but the numbers of Muslims dead in Calcutta vs Hindus dead prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was Gandhi`s goons who were responsible for violence ... while Gandhiji was fooling the world with his so called ``non violence.

This ofcourse was characteristic of Gandhi`s politics... be it bribing people to shut up about murders committed by his followers possibly on his orders... encouraging people to burn alive policemen in Chaura Chauri ... or other such violence caused by the Khilafat Movement and Shudhi and Sanghtan movements...

The world has been duped enough. Have some shame now Mahatma kay perokaron... have some shame now.

#268 by sadna

[At least two Pakistanis on this thread have explicitly called for more attacks in India but no outrage is felt about that- a Pakistani calling for violence is like the sun rising every morning. If Pakistanis didn`t think that they alone have the sole monopoly on violence, this world would be a very different place.]

Sadna, the Pakis you`re talking about were just being, well..Pakis. Pakis calling for civilian deaths is not a new phenomenon. Wasn`t it Jinnah, the father of Pakistan, who called for violence against Hindus when he issued that (in)famous call for Direct Action? At least I`m not surprised by those Pakis who were merely following in Jinnah`s footsteps.

Sadna...

Don`t fib.


You called for attacks on civilian targets. In my book... you and Jamaat-al-Fuqra are bosom buddies...

Xeemax:

``The ``goras`` think you`ll sell your mothers for a few thousand bucks.. in your cae, probably the cost of a latte..

So how come they haven`t sold out Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri for $ 50 million?``

I would hazard a guess. Selling out the duo means collecting 50 million but killing the golden goose.

Re: # 260

If so why are you all over the place with your begging bowl out?
Why are servant pakis (after getting paid in billions of dollars for
your crawling duties) still eating out of the hands of your white masters?
Puki beggardom will not last for a few weeks unless the infidel
christians throw some crumbs at you which you eagerly beg and eat out.

re#243 by pokershark
Looks like u, tahmed, faisaluno have all been eating grass in a joint.
I thought tahmed was more sober but then a paki is a paki even if he lives in US.
Think of the India`s problems this way:
If despite so many problems that India has (that u and faisaluno have pointed out in your posts), India is being recongnized as a global player by none other than US, then what would India be in say 20 or 30 years when it would have grown much bigger economically and those problems would be much less conspicous.
Indians are talking about India`s potential and what it would be in future. Everyone is aware that India has much to accomplish.
Sridhar

If so why are you all over the place with your begging bowl out?
Why are servant pakis (after getting paid in billions of dollars for
your crawling duties) still eating out of the hands of your white masters?
Puki beggardom will not last for a few weeks unless the infidel
christians throw some crumbs at you which you eagerly beg and eat out.

#265
At least two Pakistanis on this thread have explicitly called for more attacks in India but no outrage is felt about that- a Pakistani calling for violence is like the sun rising every morning. If Pakistanis didn`t think that they alone have the sole monopoly on violence, this world would be a very different place.

#264
``you called for indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets like schools, hospitals and colleges in the state of Pakistan? ``

Being a friend of Farzana Versey doesn`t give you the right to fabricate vicious lies about chowk posters. Keep that in mind.

what i mean is pakistan junta has gotten all kinds of moolah in this war of terror..this is nothing compared to 25 million. so if you strictly follow the money, it makes sense to protect the chicken that lays golden eggs.

Mantolies
[I condemn all terrorists... ]

The typical refrain of a paki. ``I condemn all terrorists... except the ones that hurt India``. Now get ready for your balls to be chewed by the same paki terrorists. Nobody in the world has any sympathy for you. There are no civilians in Islam are there? Everyone is supposed to be an exemplary follower of the medieval militant himself dont they? And live their lives by the book that advocates extreme violence (with ``peace`` thrown in here & there like some random bits of pepperoni).

The meaning of pakistan really is ``a terrorist sanctuary``. May your own monsters now feed mercilessly on you.

Sadna...

Please inform everyone of your state of mind when you called for indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets like schools, hospitals and colleges in the state of Pakistan?

I condemn all terrorists... including you- who probably funds extreme Hindu terror groups same way your opposite number Urstruly funds extreme Islamist groups.

jang #259
Yup that is warlordism on an international scale. It is amazing how profitable it is for a nuclear-armed nation to be allied to people burning down children`s schools.

#260 by Mantolives

[Since Injuns here are always looking for their Amrikan masters` approval:]

Is that why they say `America, Army, and Allah` call the shots in Pakistan, while the Americans bend over backwards to offer a nuclear deal to India? How very smart of you!

#259 by jang

[sell taliban make 25 million..dont sell but milk taliban make 3 billion..you do the math]

If Osama is betrayed, one guy makes $50 million but if he isn`t, an entire tribe (or village) makes many times over that for a long time to come.

Since Injuns here are always looking for their Amrikan masters` approval :


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11902379/site/newsweek/

PROMISE IN PAKISTAN

By Ron Moreau
Newsweek International
March 27, 2006 issue - In the late 1990s Lahore-based businessman Iqbal Ahmed was depressed. Pakistan was isolated internationally and in the grip of a deep recession, and his modest, liquefied-petroleum-gas operation didn`t seem to be going anywhere. ``I used to get up and say, `What the hell, it`s another day`,`` he recalls. ``Now I can`t wait for the day to begin. I see a very bright future

Ahmed has good reason to be optimistic. Two years ago he signed a deal with Houston`s Hanover Energy Co. that has helped transform his LPG extraction plant into the largest and most efficient in Pakistan, with revenues last year of $130 million. Backed by several international investors, Ahmed has bid some $400 million to buy a controlling interest in Southern Sui Gas, one of two state-owned gas production and distribution companies that are being privatized. And he recently signed a memorandum of understanding with Excelerate Energy of Houston to import liquefied natural gas into Pakistan in supertankers. ``We`re enjoying a sea change in economic conditions and opportunities,`` says Ahmed, 60. ``Pakistan is open for business.``

The proof is in the numbers. Last year the country`s GDP growth rate hit 8.4 percent, the world`s second highest behind China, following two years of solid 6 percent growth. This year the economy is predicted to expand by nearly 7 percent. After years of instability, with the government and military trying to distract people from their economic woes by waging jihad in Kashmir and railing against neighboring India, a true middle class is now developing. Economic reforms have given the government money to invest in health and education, and foreign investors are eying Pakistan for the first time. In many ways the country has become the world`s most surprising economic success story.

It`s a heady turnaround for a nation that, in the late 1990s, was practically a failed state with near-zero GDP growth. Because of its headlong pursuit of nuclear weapons, Pakistan had become the world`s most sanctioned nation after Libya. International aid had dried up. The government was forced to borrow at exorbitant short-term rates, burdening the country with a crushing $38 billion debt. ``We were in a real soup when [Gen. Pervez] Musharraf took over,`` says Ziauddin (he uses only one name), the Islamabad editor of the Dawn newspaper.

One of Musharraf`s first and smartest moves after his 1999 coup was to appoint Shaukat Aziz, a dapper and urbane international banker, as his economic czar, and to give him a free hand to revive the economy. But what really turned the country`s fortunes around was September 11. ``The 9/11 attack was the best thing that ever happened to Pakistan,`` says Lahore-based businessman Salmaan Taseer. The United States and Europe immediately lifted all sanctions; Washington gave Pakistan $600 million outright to meet urgent debt payments, and forgave another $1.5 billion in debt. Working with Aziz, America and other creditor nations also rescheduled Pakistan`s heavy debt over a manageable 30 to 35 years. In 2004, the United States pledged $3 billion in economic and military assistance over the next five years, in addition to $100 million for education reform. The EU pitched in, lifting quota restrictions on Pakistan`s main export, textiles.


RELATED ARTICLE
Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Restoring Pakistan`s Economy



At the same time, Aziz, who is now prime minister, began enacting a series of common-sense economic reforms. They focused on boosting fiscal discipline, government transparency and accountability. He quickly cut the budget deficit from 8 percent to 4 percent by slashing spending, and lowered interest rates. Since 2002, he has increased tax revenues by 20 percent. He also instituted a sweeping privatization program that has won kudos from both domestic and foreign investors. State-owned companies in numerous industries¡ªbanking, cement, fertilizer, utilities¡ªhave been sold off, as has a chunk of the state`s inefficient telecom giant, PTCL.


The newly privatized and cash-flush banks have been on a lending spree, extending loans to capital-starved domestic businessmen and to the Pakistani middle class, which until 2002 had little access to consumer credit. People have snapped up credit cards, and are buying cars and other big-ticket products with easy-credit bank loans. ``This is the best government we`ve had in the past 30 years,`` says prominent Lahore businessman Syed Babar Ali, who heads some of the country`s biggest joint-venture companies, including Coca-Cola and Nestl¨¦.

Story continues below ¡ý

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Foreign investors have been flocking to Pakistan to bid on privatizations and on licenses in the newly opened telecom sector. The sale of two cellular-phone licenses (won by U.A.E. and Norwegian companies) netted the government nearly $600 million. It`s a good investment as Pakistan, with 24 million cell-phone users, is now the world`s fastest-growing wireless market after China. Indeed, Pakistan is expected to receive upwards of $3 billion in foreign investment this year, largely in telecom and gas and oil exploration. The Karachi Stock Exchange recently hit a record high.

Bullish domestic investors, too, are snapping up telecom licenses and state assets. Businessman Taseer raised $40 million from Pakistani banks and $25 million from a U.S. venture-capital company in two months as part of his successful bid for a wireless license. He is also building a 350-room Hyatt hotel and shopping-mall complex in Lahore with $40 million in debt and equity that he organized from domestic banks and investors in just six weeks. ``This would have been inconceivable before,`` says Taseer, 50, a cigar-smoking tycoon who publishes the Daily Times newspaper and is constructing Lahore`s tallest office building. ``Not long ago, we would have waited at least three years to get a loan from an international bank. In the last two years there has been more economic activity in Pakistan than in the past 50.``

Even Pakistan`s nascent technology sector¡ªdwarfed by India`s¡ªseems to be taking off. Salim Ghauri, the CEO of Lahore-based NetSol Technologies, says his company`s software revenues this year are expected to jump to $19 million, compared with last year`s $11 million. DaimlerChrysler uses Ghauri`s LeaseSoft auto-leasing and financing software in its operations in eight Asian countries, and Toyota uses it in Thailand and China. ``We are competing with the best in the world, and we are coming out on top,`` says Ghauri, 51, who set up NetSol in 1996 after he returned from working as an IT consultant in Australia.

Still, all is not rosy. Pakistan must modernize its creaky infrastructure, further improve tax collection and, most important, normalize economic relations with India. Government critics say the current boom is not benefiting the country`s poorest citizens, who make up more than one third of its 160 million people. ``The rich have become very rich since 9/11, and the middle class is better off, but not the mass of Pakistanis,`` says Dawn`s Ziauddin. Aziz counters that a recent government-sponsored survey indicates that the country`s heady growth has reduced the number of Pakistanis living below the poverty line from one third to a quarter of the population (interview).

Some bankers and economists warn that the economy is dangerously overheating, due to unsustainable consumer demand and easy credit to both industrialists and consumers. Aziz and the government dismiss the concern¡ªbut consumers and the private sector have borrowed more money from the banks in the past two years than they had in the previous 12. Critics argue that growth-spawned inflation, which hit a high of 11 percent one year ago and is running this year at 8.5 percent, is a big reason the poor are not benefiting from the boom. ``Inflation is clearly eroding the purchasing power of the poor,`` says a foreign banker in Islamabad. This year the price of sugar is up by 26 percent; wheat and potatoes, by 15 percent.


RELATED ARTICLE
Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Restoring Pakistan`s Economy



According to the foreign banker, who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of his comments, ``The government is running the [economy] like it`s heading for elections.`` True: President Musharraf and Aziz areeying the crucial 2007 parliamentary elections. Organized political opposition to Musharraf is rising, and he and Aziz are hoping that an economic resurgence will persuade average voters to return them to power for another five years. That`s what most businessmen are hoping for, too. But if the rewards of the boom don`t start trickling down, the country`s runaway growth could ironically prove to be the government`s undoing.

sell taliban make 25 million..dont sell but milk taliban make 3 billion..you do the math

pokershark: Trust me. ve haf vays of makeeng people talk...... :-)

The Pashtuns of Afghanistan sold out the Taliban in the US war in 2001, didn`t even put up a fight once Mazar i Sharif fell and crossed sides within the space of a few more weeks. Some such sign of immutable force has to be shown by Al Qaeda hunters, currently Taliban sympathisers seem to be unchallenged in the Pakistani tribal areas.

#253 by arjun_m / #252 by jang

Perhaps Jang is right. The Pashtuns are not selling. The Pashtuns didn`t sell out Aimal Kansi either till he fell for a hunting lure by the Legharis of Dera Ghazi Khan and was captured. He was safe till he was in the protection of the tribals.

Richard C Holbrooke, US ambassador to the United Nations in the Clinton administration:

``I predict he will succeed with the Congressional group on the nuclear deal``
``It is my prediction, my absolute prediction, that Congress will approve the deal.``

``Congress will approve the deal for three reasons. First, India is an important country in the world. Second, they will approve it because the President will say it is in the national security interest of the United States. Third, the Indian-American community is becoming more and more influential. They will support the deal and they have influence in both (Democratic and Republican) parties.``

Pakis are like the hyenas in the movie Lion King - in their nature, voice, attitude, everything. If you want to explain Pakis to children, simply rent out Lion King from Blockbuster and show them the hyenas.

#250 by zeemax on March 20, 2006 7:57am PT

They`ll drop the dime on him...just give it time..They`re pakis, aren`t they...on one hand they complain about ``abuses`` at gitmo and on the other hand they demand a fair payment for putting most of the gitmo inmates in gitmo..

#250 good point..

more likely the pashtuns are not selling out...someone from pakistani agencies tipped off the americans (and got money), and someone (same or other) siumltaneously tipped off the al-quaida, and the tribal family was a mere pawn in the well-practiced game of running with the hares and hunting with the hounds.

Tahmed: Gujju Bania normally does not write long posts like this even though he is also a lying injun obsessed with Pakistan. This must be Sadna.

#246 by arjun_m

You`re assuming that for most pakis, islamist causes trump the values of their mothers..

No .. I mean really ... let`s walk through this argument .. Al-Zawahiri invited to a house in Bajaur ... to have pulao with barbecued lamb .. apparently he`s a regular there otherwise he wouldn`t agree to come ... a $25 million walking goldmine ... he`s tipped off and doesn`t show up and the Americans decimate the house as well as the sheep meant for dinner ... but no Al-Zawahiri .. The drones require a ground source to home in .. someone from within that household tipped Zawahiri off that he had been betrayed ... The moms and the kids died .. sure.

So I`m not assuming anything. You just proved my point. For Jehadis $25 million and their own families mean nothing.

pokershark: khalid_ahmed is not sadna, but gujjubania in his latest incarnation. :-)

Why is Sadna pasting as khalid_ahmad now. Pathetic.

Q: What do you think of the criticism that the agreement creates a double standard that will encourage rogue nations to continue to pursue nuclear weapons?

A: When people are talking about a double standard, it gives the impression that there are lots of meritorious candidates out there and suddenly we have given the nod to one of them. If other countries are prepared really to get into a serious nonproliferation effort, which in a way approaches what India has done, then they might deserve some recognition, too. And in any event, they may deserve at least the idea of an international regime that allows them to buy the nuclear materials for the public use, for electricity, peaceful use as opposed to military use if they`re prepared to take international inspection and adhere to those standards.

Q: How potentially problematic is the fact that eight of India`s nuclear reactors would not be subject to inspection?

A: This is a subject of concern because India does have a nuclear military program. They have at least had a test or maybe more. . . . The Indians I think fairly point out that there is no evidence that they have in any way shared that knowledge or proliferated any materials to anybody else. It would appear to me that if the international committee has inspectors at at least 14 other reactors and others that may grow up, there is a presence in the country that perhaps is salutary with regard to security. This is a good bit further along than the international community has presently.

In the fullness of time, India may decide that it does not wish to develop nuclear weapons. But Indians for the moment would say that they have as a very big neighbor, China, and furthermore, a more erratic neighbor, Pakistan. There will have to be considerable negotiation and evolution before they feel, in terms of their own security, that they`re prepared to give all that up. At this point they are not. So we will finally have to make a judgment as to whether our relationship with India is enhanced by the type of arrangement that Secretary Rice and others have negotiated out there.

Question: What are your biggest concerns as you review this agreement?

Answer: The issues that would lead me to be most favorable toward this is, first of all, that India, in the course of the last several years, has become a major player economically and politically in the world. Ultimately, (it) will have the largest population of any country, and it does have a working democracy, and it has potential compatibility with our democracy and democracies around the world that are important for our mutual trust and security. It`s a tie -- strategic, political, economic -- that is important for us to do and to do well.

The dilemma obviously is that India developed a bomb with no word to the rest of the world, as did Pakistan right after that. And that has been a source of deep concern for the nonproliferation community.
If I`m finally satisfied that the new strategic relationship is in the best interest of our country, that there are considerable if not complete safeguards with regard to nuclear fuel, and that a substitution of nuclear for hydrocarbons is likely to come of this, then I`m likely to favor the legislation. But I`ve been cautious prior to getting the record and the testimony.

Q: How hard will it be to get Congress to go along with the agreement?

A: I don`t know at this point. I think it is an extremely complex issue in which some members may start with a bias with regard to India or with regard to international affairs altogether. I think we`re in a period in which some members -- I wouldn`t say have become isolationists/protectionists, but they, for the moment, are very suspicious of international agreements.

But my guess is that in due course, a majority of members of the Senate . . . are probably going to come down on the side of the legislation.

Q: Why has the U.S. Chamber of Commerce launched a campaign to support this?

A: They believe that it`s an enormous source of jobs and new wealth for American industry. The suppliers of both the technical as well as the hardware for all of this will come in large part from America if we are competitive. . . . It does open up to the industry of the United States apparently an extraordinary amount of new exports and new business.

Q: The administration appears to have consulted more closely with you and other lawmakers than they have on other foreign policy issues. Is that correct?

A: It`s been a very, very different story from the very beginning. I attended the state dinner for the prime minister of India, to begin with, on the day that they really came to the agreement. . . . From then on, we have been hearing about the India situation from somebody in the administration continuously. From India, (Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Undersecretary of State Nick Burns) called me to indicate that, although they were not at liberty to talk over unsecured phones, that they wanted me to know that they felt an important breakthrough had occurred in the negotiations. I think that probably does signify a very different approach to these affairs.

Q: What should the Islamic Republic of Pakistan do to get a similar deal?
A: Ghaas khate jao, chabate jao. Eat still more grass. If the goats have already eaten all the grass, you gotta order some Chinese. MSG or no MSG.

Interview with Sen. Lugar

#237 by zeemax on March 19, 2006 11:21pm PT

You`re assuming that for most pakis, islamist causes trump the values of their mothers..

Tahmed32 - hahahaha good one. You got these CREIPS real good.

pokershark: Pakistan Zindabad!!

Once again, indians have proved no match despite their numbers. they are no match for young faisaluno, and all they can do is spin around in circles, writing lengthy posts, spitting insults. poor arjun spent his entire weekend trying to match faisaluno, and now his job with the Indian Government is at stake.

Mashallah Faisaluno you are doing a great job defeating Injuns and pointing out why Pakistan is a far superior developed country.

Pakistan will remain into forseeable future a semi-jihadic state and it will be forced to whore for US. Its relation with US will remain ambivalent like of a whore who cannot make up her mind about whether she loves her client.

retard, see this article? there is a source for it. we will take this further once you provide a source to your article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,866383,00.html


In India, 690 million people have no access to proper sanitation. The result: 150,000 die from water-related diseases every year...

But for the residents of Bells Colony, a slum in southern India, it is a daily battle. The main enemy is the pig. The colony has no latrines, and so every morning the slum-dwellers troop off into the dense green thornbushes to relieve themselves. This is not a pleasant experience. The pigs flourish amid the excrement, and have been known to attack small children. Then there are the snakes. ``There are lots of them lurking in the bushes. You have to make sure they don`t bite you,`` one slum-dweller, Mrs Valli, explained.

Faisaluno,
Pakistan`s very clean hospitals and very clean Pakistan-read about it on chowk.
Loss of two precious lives
Yahya Noori
March 9, 2006


I was dragging myself with a very heavy heart. I knew her for more than five years and now she was in the ICU of Agha Khan University Hospital struggling for her life. When I reached there, the news I feared was waiting for me. Doctors had confirmed her brain death and friends told me that she was even bleeding from her eyes. I did not have the courage to stay there, so I came back after some time. The same night at her funeral, we were not even allowed to shoulder the coffin as her body was tightly sealed and kept on a truck.

Dr. Yusra Afaq, a charming lady, a brilliant student and a nice friend parted from us on the 20th of November 2005. The cause of her death was presumably “Viral Hemorrhagic Fever,” a deadly disease, which she probably contracted while working as a house officer at Civil Hospital Karachi in the ENT department. She was only 25 years of age and had just married about three months back. Her death was shocking for all of the people who knew her. The house officers were furious at the attitude of the hospital authorities, who said that they were not “officially” informed about such an incident. They immediately went on a strike, which continued for almost a week and ended, when the health secretary ensured that all necessary measures would be taken to improve the environment of CHK and an infectious disease unit and isolation ward would be established at CHK.

This was not the first incident and about two months back another doctor Dr. Zia Siddiqui, a senior Post graduate trainee at Neurosurgery had died of the same cause. The authorities said that this was a normal phenomenon that these cases do occur in the months of October to December, but irony of fate was that nobody on the frontlines was notified to take the precautions. Had they been notified, it is possible that loss of such precious lives could have been prevented.

At this time, CHK remains the breeding home of cats, dogs, rats and all the other pests which one can imagine. It can become an epicenter of any outbreak in the city and remains a threat to the environment of the localities and to all who work there. The conditions remain the same and the patients continue to arrive with bleeding from different orifices of their bodies. Perhaps the authorities are waiting for some more deaths to take some necessary action.

Where is bin Laden?

---

H E R E

---

#237 by zeemax

[So how come they haven`t sold out Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri for $ 50 million?]

Obviously OBL and AAZ are offering them more :-)

#225 by arjun_m

The ``goras`` think you`ll sell your mothers for a few thousand bucks.. in your cae, probably the cost of a latte..

So how come they haven`t sold out Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri for $ 50 million?

#192 by dost-mittar

Point duly taken and acknowledged. Reason like yours must prevail.

#234

And I forgot to add the main one:

4) Remind mushy baby that now on he was on the choke leash.

#232

``dawood after all is a state-guest and prolly is used by uncle sam as a card they would like to play at an opportune time.``

Good observation Jang. Note the whole AQ Khan issue. The AQ Khan network activitites beyond Pakistan were known since atleast the mid-nineties, but observe how the Americans used it as part of a coordinated stategy to:
1) Enmesh the Iraninans in on-proliferation issues
2) Totally emasculate the clueless Libyans
3) Raise the bar for further Chinese assistance to the Pakistani program (both civil and military).

very masterfully played! The Dawood card will be played similarly when appropriate.

#231 faisal you can also give some money to an indian memebr of parliament, and he will cause uproar on paki issue of your choice. this will be a good will gesture, since paki banana-republic parliament cant discuss trivial issues like bombing of their own citizens. they canonly form resolutions on cartoons.

#156 hp i dont think the paki establishment is not foshing in the troubled waters out of good will, they do their best. dawood after all is a state-guest and prolly is used by uncle sam as a card they would like to play at an opportune time. indian muslim and non-muslim relationships are good 99% of the time not because of lack of trouble causing, but inspite of trouble causing.

as is evident lately, indians have not caused any lawlessness inspite of serious provokations because they understant that its the work of troublemakers, and not of entire community. so, as we say in india, the truth shall prevail. your petty trouble making is assumed and we shall deal with it .. punjab trouble ceased when the pujabi community took care of the separatists, and that will be the case here as well.

for pakistanis, indians = pigs

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=174299

Uproar in Assembly over gastro deaths

Mumbai, March 18: Following an uproar in the Legislative Assembly on Saturday over the gastroenteritis outbreak in South Mumbai, Speaker Babasaheb Kupekar directed the state government to convene a meeting of elected representatives and officials concerned to discuss preventive and adequate measures to be undertaken.

...Raising the issue in the House, Nationalist Congress Party Member of Legislative Assembly (MLA) Bashir Patel pointed out that despite three deaths and 612 persons admitted to hospitals, the government wasn’t taking any action.

Cholera not ruled out, gastro still worrying

A worrying 22 fresh cases of gastroenteritis cropped up from shanties along P D’Mello Road on Saturday, all of them now admitted in St George Hospital. The Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation (BMC) is checking pipelines and community water connections in the area.

The cumulative total of gastroenteritis admissions in city hospitals since Monday went up to 332, while 67 patients have been discharged. On an average, Mumbai sees about 20 cases a day even during fairweather conditions, said civic sources. Saturday’s fresh admissions were nearly 45.

i have beaten this pagal kutta rather badly. he has lost his comprehension abilities another reason being the sick fucker spends all his time fantasizing about pakistani men.

pakistanis, please read my post #226 again. in that post, there is clear acknowlegdgement from chowk-staff that my profile was hacked. i provided details to chowk-staff on who did it but they did not do anything even though hacking of websites based in the u.s. is a federal offence. also please note chowk`s privacy policy:

``Chowk respects your right to the privacy of the personal information you provide us on our Web site. To that end, any personal information you provide to Chowk.com will be known only to two parties: you and Chowk.``

note that chowk-staff is not taking action against people who are violating this policy. obviously hackers can get personal details from chowk`s website. chowk-staff by not acting against them clearly indicate what they think of their privacy policy.

bottom line is these people are aasteen ka saanph so be careful.

For Americans, paki = terrorist..

Father and son removed from flight

By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, March 19: A Pakistani and his son have filed a complaint with US federal officials claiming they were removed from a flight because of their appearance. Fazal Khan, 59, and Mohammed Khan, 28, boarded a SkyWest Airlines flight from Los Angeles to Oakland, California, on Jan 31, 2006, wearing white skullcaps, tunics and loose trousers. Both men also have long beards.

Attorney Shirin Sinnar of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights in San Francisco said the men had been told to leave their seats before the flight took off and escorted back to the terminal.

“They were essentially told, ‘You can’t take this flight because the flight attendant is uncomfortable’,” the lawyer said.

The men took a later flight to San Francisco International Airport. SkyWest, a regional feeder airline, operates some flights booked with the United Express service of United Airlines.

United Airlines spokesman Jeff Green said the company was investigating the complaint. Utah-based SkyWest is responsible for staff on the aircraft, he said.

#226 by faisal ``paki liberace`` ali on March 19, 2006 8:05pm PT


:Passwords are encrypted on Chowk therefore no one can obtain access to
your
password.


So if your password is encrypted, it means only you could have put up the liberace thing on your profile.

So how does it feel to be out of the closet?

and here is some more on reality of india:

http://www.newstatesman.com/200601300017

Meanwhile, the majority of India`s women have to wait until after it gets dark before they answer the call of nature. Less than a third of Indian homes have an indoor toilet.

haha...gotcha...i sent an email to chowk-staff using a ficticious id to see if they would pass it to the indians. and just as i suspected, they did which pretty much tells us pakistanis what we need to know about people behind this website. btw here is chowk-staff`s reply to my email:


:Passwords are encrypted on Chowk therefore no one can obtain access to
your
password. The edit profile form has been patched to prevent this from
happening again.

Sincerely,
Chowk-staff

#224 by faisal ``paki liberace`` ali on March 19, 2006 5:02pm PT

The ``goras`` think you`ll sell your mothers for a few thousand bucks.. in your cae, probably the cost of a latte..

talking about dignity, check out what goras think of india:

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main16.asp?filename=hub030406Fursat_Mein.asp

No, I’m not paranoid but there are mornings when it strikes me that my auto rickshaw is always the slowest vehicle on the highway. Trucks and buses roar past us as we struggle up the eight-lane freeway at a determined, leisurely pace and I have all the time in the world to watch an immaculately clad businessman holding his briefcase in one hand taking a piss into the roadside bushes.

Manto`s rag has an op-ed on the famel-of-canine-species slap Dubya gave Pakiland..

VIEW: Dignity as a nation — Syed Mansoor Hussain

President George W Bush came to Pakistan for a day. It seems that this trip was meant to humiliate Pakistan and make President General Pervez Musharraf look bad. The New York Times in its editorial on March 7, 2006 stated that: “It’s baffling why Mr Bush travelled halfway around the world to stand right next to one of his most important allies against terrorism — and embarrass him.” The NYT is not the only one baffled, so are most Pakistanis.

The geopolitical significance of this visit, if any, is a matter for experts to discuss and analyse. What made me sit up and take notice of it all was a comment made by the son of a dear friend. This young man, an Ivy League graduate and a successful businessman who is also well informed about politics said something very sad about this visit. He wanted to know if we as Pakistanis had no dignity left. What this visit exposed for all to see is that indeed as a country we have no dignity when it comes to our relations with the US.

In my opinion Pakistan’s attitude towards the US can only be understood in the context of our cultural background. A quick read of any of our poets or a visit to one of our movies would illustrate my point. It is all about the lover and the beloved. The beloved is expected to be fickle, uncaring and above all cruelly inconsiderate. This relationship is best depicted in the stories about courtesans and their patrons. Metaphorically, Pakistan is the courtesan and the US the rich man who patronises her.

He comes by whenever he feels the need but she sits there obsessing about him. He gets satisfaction and pays her for it but she weaves a fantasy around his visits and creates a world where he cares for only her and nobody else. She expects him to be fickle and uncaring but knows in her hear that such indifference is just an act. She believes that in his heart she is the one he really desires and thinks about all the time. Most of all, she ignores the financial aspect of the relationship.

To understand what happened when President George W Bush visited Pakistan, we perhaps have to revisit the metaphor of the courtesan and her patron. The patron made a big show of his new relationship with the country next door and then spent a night in Pakistan. The message he wanted to give to Pakistan was a simple one. I don’t really care about you as much as you think I do, so please get over it!

Here I must admit some sympathy for the US point of view. I am sure they are getting a little tired of Pakistanis asking them to put things right in Pakistan. Once we decide as Pakistanis that it is we who are responsible for putting things right in our country and set about to do so, we might regain some of our lost dignity as a nation.

ahmadzai #203

`` Once somebody from his own clan advised a pakhtun at war with another clan that why don`t we call a jirga and extend freindship to our enemies. The jirga will declare peace between our two clans and all of us, including our next generation, will live happily ever after. The pakhtun said, ``I agree with your suggestion, but what is the guarantee that after I have disarmed myself, my old enemy will not kill me and my next generation? At least by continuing the enmity I have a guarantee that if he kills me or my next generation, I or someone from my clan will kill an equivalent from the enemy.`` ``

Hate to remind you - a few H-bombs over Pakhtun belt will eliminate their civilization for good.

`` All I am asking my Punjabi friends is not to under-estimate the American` neo-cons desire, in league with Indians and Israelis, to belittle Islam in general and to continue to inflict losses on Pakistan. ``

Do you something against Israelis ? Or you a bigot ? Why would Israelis care about destroying Pakistan ? They have their hands full.

They sell weapons to India for $$$. They do not mind sell weapons to China as long as Americans do not object. Your JF-17 combat aircraft from China carries Israeli avionics.

`` There are lot of noises in the corridors of power these days that if we return to our Jihadi ways there is an absolute guarantee that we and our next generation will perish, but we will take many of our sworn enemies down with us. That is absolute certainty.``

Empty vessels make a lot of noises

HP #156

`` I just don’t know why and how it would not be a good policy to take advantage of a bad situation in India. So if Pakistan can, it should concentrate on this Indian vulnerability. Since communalism and Hindu- Muslim divide in India is an Indian problem and if it offers an opportunity for Pakistan, then Pakistani should go for it and see what results come out of that. If that leads to communal strife in India, then that is an Indian problem and they should have dealt with in the last 60 years. Since they did not, I think it is a good tactical move to exploit that vulnerability. ``

It is assuming Indian Muslims are going to take aid from Pakistanis. Most of the Indian Muslims recognize their lot is not going to be improved by siding with Pakistan.

`` India did exploit a similar situation in East Pakistan when Bengali and Punjabi Pakistani had a power struggle back in 1971. So the precedent is there and there is no harm in testing the waters by Pak agencies to see what results a persistent effort (for at least one year) in Indian cities brings out. :) ``

It is assuming Pakistan can mount long range operations of any sort on Indian soil.

#209 Faisal

A few quick questions from you.

(1) Do you think that the khakis should be ruling Pakistan, or not?

(2) Do you think that Mukhtaran Mai is honest, or not?

(3) Do you believe that Pakistanis deserve the same type of democracy as the rest of the world, or not?

Thanks.

chowk`s pagal kutta in residence is taking his beating rather badly. he is reduced to fantasizing about the sex life of pak males on the internet.

Re: # 210

[Injuns are known cowards when it comes to war and anything involving physical activity - they have repeatedly lost wars to Pak fauj (T)]

Huh? They still teach that kind of nonsense in TSP madrassas? No wonder the nada crowd is so f@cked up. You can`t wake up the ones who are pretending to be sleeping.

haha...dravidian making fun of another dravidian:

http://content-eap.cricinfo.com/india/content/player/27603.html

#215 by faisal ``paki liberace`` ali on March 19, 2006 12:07pm PT


central asia? ummm... ok.. if you say so..

actually, my family is from central asia and here is our symbol. and i dont need to tell you how we dealt with the natives. waisay i dont know of another qaum who would tolerate this building:

http://www.destinationindia.com/editorial/heritage/delhi/qutab-minar.html



The Minar was said to have been built to glorify the victory of Mohammed Ghori, the invader from Afghanistan, over the Rajputs in 1192

Close to the Qutub Minar, The Quwwat-ul-Islam mosque was the first mosque to be built in India. Constructed by Qutub-ud-din Aibak using parts of 27 Jain and Hindu temples, this mosque present both Indian and Islamic features.

faisaluno(the paki liberace): If it wasn`t for the Indian army, the paki army would have killed and raped a lot more of your bengali brothers and sisters...

ahmadzai:
do you have any idea about ahmadzai-wazir tribe of FATA and why would these guys like to have Talibanist fascism imposed in waziristan than to help Pakistan-state in ridding alqaeda? although, the possibility of Pakistani state agencies helping taliban/alqaeda (on the side) cant be ruled out.

arjun_m has done more than to just blabber on chowk. most of the time he`d post hard-data (links to news stories and op-eds) to back up his argument...
he might be a monster in real life who eats babies for fun but that doesnt invalidate his eligibility for being a chowk member and certainly doesnt matter an iota on the natue of his chowk-content. ignore option is always there, in any case.

#200
I will certainly not advocate Indians playing dead when more attacks on our citizens` lives are threatened by posters such as HisExcellency.

Faisaluno, great post (T). Injuns are known cowards when it comes to war and anything involving physical activity - they have repeatedly lost wars to Pak fauj (T)

cant say i am surprised given their history.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=368417

Monitoring to check battle stress: Army
NEW DELHI, MAR 6 (PTI)

In the face of mounting cases of soldiers killing colleagues, Army today said ``strict monitoring`` was being done to check ``battle stress`` specially in counter-insurgency areas.

``Screening is being undertaken of all troops posted on frontlines and those inducted for counter-insurgency duties in Jammu and Kashmir``, top level army officers said attributing yesterday`s killing of five soliders by a fellow soldier near Jammu to ``mental depression``.

``Naik Satbir singh, the alleged killer was suffering from mental depression and had been placed in low medical category``, officers said as figures tabled by Government in Paliament said 10 soldiers and officers and had been killed in such incidents in the past year.

The killings, attributed to ``barrack fatigue`` by experts is not only confined to Army, but has also afflicted paramilitary forces and other securty detachments deployed in frontier areas, mostly in counter insurgency operations.

...Officials said the latest case of a soldier turning his gun on his colleagues appeared to be more mental depression related than operation stress as Singh was not nvolved in any counter-insurgency operation.

This is funny.. Everyone is ganging up on arjun_m as if he is the cause of all the problems in Pakistan.. :-))

The only thing he does is that he copies/pastes articles about Pakistan from various news sources (mostly non-Indian and some even from Pakistani newspapers) with caustic/funny comments..

You can respond in kind by pasting such articles about India.. That would be fun..or refute him if he lies.. Seriously, about this article, do you guys think an average american gives a damn about Pakistan / India ??.. If you are talking about American govt., it`s short term policy is to prevent ``Pakistani islamists/jihadists`` from staging terror attacks. not to win over hearts/minds.. They say that for public consumption. They know that their words can`t compare to Muhammad`s words. don`t take jews and christians as protecting friends..

Well, like he says, facts are anti-Pakistan. what can we do??. :-))

Oh those poor moderate never-supported-jihadis misunderstood pakis....lookie what those hindus/indians made them do..all they ever wanted was a moderate government in afghanistan, a peaceful afghanistan that wouldn`t blow up the statues...

Swiss documentary on Afghanistan: Pakistani, Saudi engineers helped destroy Buddhas

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: The Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan were destroyed by the Taliban with the help of Pakistani and Saudi engineers.

According to an account published here on Saturday, a local Afghan told the makers of a Swiss documentary on the giant statues which had stood there, carved in the side of a mountain for hundreds of years, had been destroyed by engineers from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The dynamiting of the statues took place in March 2001. Swiss documentary filmmaker Christian Frei, who has made several documentaries that have won praise at various international film festivals, shot ‘The Giant Buddhas’ in Afghanistan. The film is due to be shown at the National Gallery of Art in Washington on 26 March.

The Taliban went ahead with the destruction of the giant statues, revered for centuries, because they considered them “offensive to Islam”. They ignored appeals from around the world, including UNESCO and an appeal from the then Government of Pakistan, made, it would appear now, more “for the record” than any serious intent to stop the Islamist zealots from destroying what the rest of the world considered mankind’s heritage.

Zeena at # 161:

Oh no, you pasted a page from my diary here :-)

Now, I will go one step even more. Mohtarma Farzana Sahiba will not be able to throw arjun_m out for the sole reason I mentioned.

I think Farzana Sahiba was actually invited to be in California to become editor of Chowk by the owners of this site, who in my opinion are an extremist band of Indians or at the least one person that we know, in order to mellow her down from her tirades against the saffron brigade and other extremist anti-Indian Muslim Indians.

Now, I don`t know if her writings have mellowed down for I have not read a single article from her recently. If yes, then that would be another proof.

Once again, I will say that no other site could have tolerated a poster like arjun_m, unless this guy is a stake holder.

If my assertion is not correct, then would the Chowk Staff let us know what value addition arjun_m is providing to the participants.

To give you an example I would have rather discussed problems of human right abuses in our different ethnic groups and to learn from others whose ethnic groups might have broken the shackles by using some good method, rather than getting into India versus Pakistan slogging game.

tahmed, faisaluno, urstruly, his excellency, other Pakistani interactors:

Have you noticed recently that arjun_m has started siding with Talibans and OBL recently against Pakistan?

Earlier Stuka had also sided with Al Qaeda terrorists in their fight against Pakistani tribal lashkar.

Does it ring any bells?

I had said long time ago that OBL and Al Qaeda is a `creation` to keep squeezing Muslim countries. Now real Indian (hate Pakistan) fighters are openly posting messages in support of Al Qaeda terrorists fighting against Pakistani military and killing our tribal elders.

:-)

Re: # 200

please enough of the self righteousness, just the other day, you were calling for bombing pakistan

tahmed:

I read your earlier post addressed to me. When I wrote my last post on certainty versus uncertainty, I had the pakhtun tradition of topuch and tarboor in my mind.

Once somebody from his own clan advised a pakhtun at war with another clan that why don`t we call a jirga and extend freindship to our enemies. The jirga will declare peace between our two clans and all of us, including our next generation, will live happily ever after. The pakhtun said, ``I agree with your suggestion, but what is the guarantee that after I have disarmed myself, my old enemy will not kill me and my next generation? At least by continuing the enmity I have a guarantee that if he kills me or my next generation, I or someone from my clan will kill an equivalent from the enemy.``

All I am asking my Punjabi friends is not to under-estimate the American` neo-cons desire, in league with Indians and Israelis, to belittle Islam in general and to continue to inflict losses on Pakistan.

There are lot of noises in the corridors of power these days that if we return to our Jihadi ways there is an absolute guarantee that we and our next generation will perish, but we will take many of our sworn enemies down with us. That is absolute certainty.

ps:..
BANCHOWK...sounds so much like BANCHOD...which is what it has become...(angry icon)

BAN CHOWK!!

...it is the lashkar-e-toba and vishva hindu parishad combined together in generating hatred amongsy innocent brothers of india and pakistan...it must be Fazana Versey`s secret agenda...BAN HER TOO....;))

I mean Lashkar e Toiba has killed and beheaded so many people, but for `liberal` Pakistanis, it is the Indians on chowk who are the extremists and hatemongers.

I mean simply disagreeing with Muslims on chowk can get me called an extremist if I am a Hindu, but what do Muslims have to do to be called terrorists by fellow Muslims, even their beheading children is not good enough for them to qualify.

ohh damn. the stink starts again!!

Yeah Pakistanis` lives are justified only when Indians are killed. Talk of an entire nation not having any purpose.

Alright - the cyber warriors are back for Round Two..... First round went in favor of faisal, or so pakis claim.... now let`s see who gets the honors in this round....

In the mean time - if anybody spots zeemax - call Dr Mohar immediately and stay away from him.... the guy has missed his medications and has gone cuckoo....

faisaluno: please!! what is the point of celebrating something in which people get killed?

strategic depth zindabad:

http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/19/stories/2006031913230100.htm

One killed, 10 injured in Guwahati blast

GUWAHATI: A woman was killed and 10 persons were injured when suspected militants of the United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA) triggered a blast near the railway track at the Bamunimaidan rail yard here on Saturday night.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060319/main5.htm

Nine jawans hurt in blast

Srinagar, March 18
Nine soldiers were among 10 injured when militants detonated a car blast on the Srinagar-Baramula bypass here today. The Hizbul Mujahideen has claimed responsibility for the blast.

good morning arjun. glad to see you are back on duty on chowk. ha! ha!

great idea that...plant the seed of islamic fundamentalism in our own people so we`ll have an endless supply of islamic jihadis..

strategic depth is working out quite well..the taliban now have strategic depth into Pakiland..

Pakistani Taliban rule by fear on Afghan frontier

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AFP) - Pakistani Taliban are in control of parts of the country`s tribal zones bordering
Afghanistan, where they have established a reign of terror in the name of Islam, miitary and security sources said.

Seven killed in Pakistani blast

At least seven people have been killed in a roadside bombing near the town of Dera Ismail Khan in north-west Pakistan, police have said.

The blast hit a police van on a routine patrol, killing three policemen, three paramilitary soldiers and a passer-by.

zeemax#185,186:

I do agree with you about the lowering of the level of debate at chowk and this topic has been discussed before. But I do not agree with you re. the specifics.

``after all where are interactors of the calibre of agnostic, samirJB, roohiAD, what happened to them?``

I do not know what happened to SamirJ but he never had any problem with the Indian interactors. And while he was/is an erudite contributors, he was also able to dish out in the ``language of choice`` though he reserved it for the unplugged section. Roohi did complain a few times but her complaint was about the anti-Indian/Hindu bias of chowk administration and the anti-women attitude of some Pakistani interactors.

``I want to postulate and pontificate. I want to debate and tear your ideas to bits and have you pull mine to bits. I want to say what I want; and I want to hear what you have to say.``

This is exactly what arjun-m and ramanujam do most of the time, although repeating the same message ad nauseum and ad infinitum - as do we all to some extent because our ``agendas`` do not change. It is mostly Pakistani interactors who, when confronted with uncomfortable facts and logic, tend to get ``up close and personal``. When it comes to personal abuse and talking dirty, the Pakistani interactors win hands down - the only Indian interactors seem to do so consistently are gujju (khalid_ahmad here) and rsridhar, others may have done so as an exception.

And as others have pointed out, you did not enhance your case by using the same kind of language that you were protesting against - and that too not against an individual but against a whole community.

I normally don`t do this - but here are some more samples of interaction from this guy zeemax.... the guy has just lost it....

Modernity Board
#111 by zeemax on March 19, 2006 1:44am PT
#88 by tahmed32/#89 by Kulharee

You a$$holes ... you`re here for nothing else than feel-good stuff looking at your own posts. You don`t know anything.

So ... fcuk off.
+++++

Turkey Board.
#33 by zeemax on March 19, 2006 2:19am PT
#30 by kabuliwallah

A$$hole only thing they have is tourist industry. Do you want it to become a Thigh-Land and capital of a Bangcock?

++++

The number of interacts mentioned at the bottom of article and also on home page is 193 ( i.e. before this interact) , where are the missing interacts?

Re: # 186 zeemax
[....where are interactors of the calibre of agnostic, samirJB, roohiAD, what happened to them? ....But I remain .... behn dhe phuddi hinduan di....]

Well - even if the ``calibre`` interactors have stayed back - your cheap epithets would have certainly made them leave.... On one hand - you complain about ``personal attacks, and just simply abuse`` ... and then you turn around and makes a hate speech against hinuds right in the next sentence....

As for the calibre interactors... I remember samirJB used to fight with urstruly regularly on islamic issue and I have never heard of the other guys.... so don`t blame me for their exit....

Anycsae - you have serious mental issues..... check into my clini ASAP.... you may still have a chance....

#156 Hate Pot

And by the same token, why should not the Indians turn around and try to do the same with the Pakistanis? The fault lines are quite as stark and perhaps much stronger than in case of India - regional/geographic divisions are a lot easier to demarcate than a population having a different religion from the mainstream but diffused all over.

And unlike the case of India (where this whole sorry pathetic attempt of ``divide and rule`` failed in case of Punjab and now appears to have failed in Jammu and Kashmir) this method has been found to actually work in Pakistan! So there is a concrete track record of its success there.

You see dear Hattie, because the real ingredient for its success - the only ingredient that counts - is that attitude of exclusivity - that some people are ``superior`` to others - that such people are exclusive.

That basic ingredient is in short supply in India (and getting shorter over time) but available in plenty in the land of the pure (and likely to remain so as long as hatemongers (bearded or otherwise) stick around).

The problem with your ``tried and true`` line of reasoning is that it has already been tried in India - many a times - and simply found to be a very weak technique with very little payoff.

But some individuals will never stop deluding themselves. And when they have the power (be it a military dictator or a civilian despot) they will always go back to square one.

Because they will never be held accountable.

#186 by zeemax on March 19, 2006 2:01am PT

“behn dhe phuddi hinduan di”

As if your sisters don’t have one. Right?

Thank you for elevating intellectual discussion level, Mr. sophisticated international banker from Pakistan.

#151 by hamidm2

Yes right. Tell Farzana. It will be a pity if you get up and leave too ... after all where are interactors of the calibre of agnostic, samirJB, roohiAD, what happened to them? They all left for good because they couldn`t respond in the same language as the hindoos ...

But I remain .... behn dhe phuddi hinduan di ... all these Arjun`s and Mohar`s and asswipes of their ilk ...

Dear Farzana ... please take notice of this ...

This is serious. Chowk is being sabotaged. A group of four ... just four interactors are pushing the entire community of genuine interactors out of the forums through their invective, personal attacks, and just simply abuse ... to the extent that the genuine people just think better to not waste their time and simply leave.

That`s not healthy. These few sabtageurs must be banned. Immediately. Forever. Plus any other nicks they may assume but they`ll be caught through many means available to Chowk.

Just look at the `member since` figures. How many interactors are here today from the initial halcyon days of the Chowk?

The Raison D`etre of Chowk laid out so clearly by Saima Shah in her ``Say Something, let`s talk` of 1997 has been abused for ulterior motives by a few. When she said ``I want to postulate and pontificate. I want to debate and tear your ideas to bits and have you pull mine to bits. I want to say what I want; and I want to hear what you have to say.``, she didn`t mean pontificating on the sexual mores of anyone`s mother ...

This detracts from any serious review of opinions, and loyal chowkies deserve better. Rather, Chowk owes it to those Chowkies who embraced it as their own and ensured its survival.

It`s upto you to decide who those four interactors are. I`m sure you know.

Rgds

Re: # 29-good work..there..to contain a psycho..
but once a psycho is always a pscyho..

Hamidm2 writes:
of late i have noticed that a lot of indians are walking around with swollen heads too big for their pugrees and some are getting a little too big for their dhotis


Hamidm2 being the typical P*ki - has forgotten conveniently how the P*ki state
has promoted bigotry against India and Hindus in textbooks and media for the
past 60 years, how the P*ki state has promoted terrorism and killed thousands,
how the P*ki system has created a whole industry for terrorism worldwide.

Now that India has managed these `thousand cuts` that he P*kis inflicted
and now that P*ki state has been shown to be the rotten state that it
really is - the P*kis get all upset.

hamidm2 - you are just regular old p*ki with a jihadi mindset.

``To me he is a sadist. He believes that Pakistanis have been comprehensively beaten by India in all aspects. A good winner would then let it go. But he is here, night and day, in season and out of season, humiliating the “defeated” lot. ``

the day Pakistanis stop acting as if it is in a state of constant war with India I am certain that the military-mullah alliance would cease to rule Pakistan and it would then automatically move away from Talibanism that seems to be gaining popularity amongst its gullible awaam.............but for that these educated elite has to change its mind set that perpetuates the propping up the fears of ``Indian domination`` and the feeling that Indians are somehow ``humiliating`` Pakistans..................

awww...poor pakis...looks at all these hateful Indians who make them do stuff..like blow up subways and stuff...If it wasn`t for these hateful Indians, pakis would be going through a renaissance..

the hateful Indians made the pakis support Islamic jihad and stuff..
the hateful Indians made the pakis support the taliban..
the hateful Indians made the pakis get involved with terrorism in Australia, England, Canada and the US..

those hateful Indians have the power to alter reality and make the pakis into something they`re really not...

Why this Maatum being done by FaisalRetardo, Hamid Mian and Zinnie babie!! I guess another survey is now over due. Coming soon.

Well, well - looks like pakis have declared a jihad arjun_m..... Even Hamidm has joined the melee......... soon we will have a whole group of pakis with placards marching down the street .... ``allah hu akbar... kill arjun_m ..... Arjun M, your day will come....``

What I don`t understand is - why don`t you guys just ignore the posts from arjun?.... if his posts ``inflames`` your delicate minds - just don`t read it.... shouldn`t that be the right thing to do then whine like fools..... if you are going to ban him for making his points strongly[ a little too strongly, I guess]..... what are you going to do with the likes of Behram for his schizophrenic ramblings?...or YLH for his obsession with gandhi, jinnah?....or Romair for being always wrong on everything[where is that guy?]..... are you going to ban them all?.....

you guys have already declared victory over arjun anway - so stop whining now.... :))).. let people say their pieces....

Take leave?? I thought u were going 2 hold the fort against the miscreants here w/ me.

Maybe they r getting paid like the pentagon is paying all sorts of ppl for propaganda. India & Pakistani militaries must have paid cyber agents too.

ok doctor sahib. i shall take leave. let us pray for better days for chowk - even poor hamidm seems to be getting fed up.

i hope for their sake that the cyber warriors are out there with real people. they worked hard all day on chowk today, obviously.

we had a garage rat once. i killed the damn thing with one of those rat traps with glue to which the rat was stuck. my wife was in mourning for the rat for two days (kept complaining about the cruelty).

BTW lets declare this board off limits to the cyber warriors until the author comes back.

No patients only lab rats & such. No, they didnt survive :(

work!! please dont use such terrible words, Dr sahib. hope all your patients survived, btw.

Disco is 4 the older folk but im not much of a dancer anyway.

#167 i come here 2 b humored after a hard days work & all i find is empty bragging. I demand useless banter.

but look at the bright side. no need to stand in long lines in the cold waiting to be let into the disco (i dont even know if they have those things anymore!!).

ha! ha! true.

#165 tahmed32
Life sucks y else wud i be here on a saturday eve? :(

DrDr: forget this bs, doctor sahib. how is life with you??

I dont mind verbal duels so long as they r creative & entertaining. Faisaluno comes the closest in having a smidgeon of creativity. Otherwise ``winners`` come across as sore losers who need 2 win by overwhelming the site with bs.

#161 actually y the ``winners`` on either side feel like they have 2 repeat themselves over & over again is they know they havent won anything.

Whats interesting is the editor exercises tight control over discussions on her own articles almost 2 the point of indulging in censorship. She abandons the ship 4 all other articles.
I commisserate w/ u aquaris - every damned article ends up w/ the same predictable sequence of mine is bigger w/ the same set of characters - the discussions here have become constipated. Thats y this is the ``plugged`` section i suppose as opposed 2 the ``unplugged`` section. There too its mostly mud slinging w/ individuals going at each other.

From ahmadzai`s ilogs.

From ahmadzai`s ilogs
Sorry ahmadzai but can`t help to appreciate your truthfulness.

I second you.
March 17, 2006

Who owns Chowk?

I received an email that why I have disappeared from the site. A less important reason being that it is very difficult to get time on PC at home given that children are growing and give quite a fierce competition for time on the net. otoh, I really feel guilty in posting messages during work hours.

The more important reason has been that I got a little annoyed after I realized that this site is owned / co-owned by arjun_m. It occurred to me during exchange of messages on one topic last month. Previously, I was all in favor of letting SOB’s like him express their views on this site for it was all fun and frolic. But I am yet to find a single post from him that contributes positively to this site. This Indian fanatic is a sick mind. If he were a participant only, he would have been thrown out of this site long time ago. But he and his ilk continue. This proves that he is the owner or co-owner of this site.

To me he is a sadist. He believes that Pakistanis have been comprehensively beaten by India in all aspects. A good winner would then let it go. But he is here, night and day, in season and out of season, humiliating the “defeated” lot. This reminds me of this ruthless killer sentenced last year, who used to kill his little child victims in agony and pain. The last child he killed, was by choking him by putting a polythene wrapper on his head. The bastard actually enjoyed watching the little boy die in pain due to slow suffocation. This is an exact equivalent of arjun_m.

Only in this case, Pakistani children are putting up some fight.

But in the first place, children were supposed to be here not for putting a fight to the ruthless killers, but to play tag, hide and seek and enjoy various amusement rides.

If my assumption on ownership of this site is incorrect, can Chowk staff please tell me what is the value addition of this a*shole arjun_m and his ilk on this site. How many exchanges of any constructive value has he entered into with Pakistanis? What has he been able to teach us the ‘defeated’ lot?

#157 by aquaris on March 18, 2006 1:52pm PT


its really getting frustrating, and irritating....


Press alt-f4 and all your problems will be solved....

#157 by aquaris

Yes aquaris. Most of the best interactors have already left because of the very same reason. I had once tried to bring up this issue with the editors but they felt they couldn`t impose censorship because that would be against the very concept of having a Chowk.

its really getting frustrating, and irritating....


EVERY Topic and I mean In Every topic.....!!


Question: Why are these Indians Jumping up and down...
A gang of these indians not only posts similiar .... But some time the Same post
in any topic they find.... with the word.... no no not just the word... But a hint to the Word Muslim or Pakistani.....!!

Now this is really irritating...!!

We visit chowk to enjoy a good discussion, not this hate filled, troll stuff.... not in One or two But in every TOPIC......while the Indians GANG up...or may be they belong to an organization whose sole purpose is to `` INFLAME `` .....some Pakistanis retaliate....mostly out of this frustration....

Its really a waste of good bandwidth.... and will drive away any good debate... as every Topic and I really Mean every Topic becomes a Mud slinging Match....
with the Organizational gangs of Indians....at one end... and a lone or two pakistanis at the other end....


I mean the Editors should really look into it....!! ...its not good.... Not good...

#100 by sadna
#98
”You don`t get the point and don`t get it even after 60 years. Indian Muslims are Indians not Pakistani stooges.”

I got to agree with Sadna that Indian Muslims are Indian first and last and they should not be taken as Pakistani stooges.

But…The communalism is an Indian problem that has created a major fault line in the Indian nation and it is obvious as Dost Mitter implied in one of his posts that the majority community’s attitude towards Muslims certainly borders on racism and there must be lots of built up resentment in the Muslim community in India.

I just don’t know why and how it would not be a good policy to take advantage of a bad situation in India. So if Pakistan can, it should concentrate on this Indian vulnerability. Since communalism and Hindu- Muslim divide in India is an Indian problem and if it offers an opportunity for Pakistan, then Pakistani should go for it and see what results come out of that. If that leads to communal strife in India, then that is an Indian problem and they should have dealt with in the last 60 years. Since they did not, I think it is a good tactical move to exploit that vulnerability.

India did exploit a similar situation in East Pakistan when Bengali and Punjabi Pakistani had a power struggle back in 1971. So the precedent is there and there is no harm in testing the waters by Pak agencies to see what results a persistent effort (for at least one year) in Indian cities brings out. :)

well ... Faisluno won no doubt .. but I gotta say .. all Indians are not badboodaar ... at-least not that girl in Jakarta ... but I guess she was a Sikhni anyway .. no hindu ..

Sheesh...what part of NO isn`t clear, huh?

Jehangir pleads for ‘package’ for both India, Pakistan

Washington—Stating that “this is not the time for an imbalance” in the South Asian region,” Ambassador Jehangir Karamat Saturday pleaded “there should be a package for both countries, and not country-specific deals on a subject as critical as nuclear technology.”

#151 by hamidm2 on March 18, 2006 12:20pm PT


it seems this bpo/ito stuff has gone to their heads ..


That ``stuff``, besides earning a lot of money and creatign a lot of jobs, has put India on the map..

What`s Pakiland`s name most commonly associated with today? that`s right...it`s where the jihadis are from...

Indians have every right to be proud..

#125 by Mantolives

Yaar very interesting. Hugh Grant is off with Jemima ... and what is his long time flame Elizabeth Hurley doing with Imran Khan in Pakistan??? Tit for Tat I guess ...

Re: # 148

...... faisal mian,

.... you are right ...... of late i have noticed that a lot of indians are walking around with swollen heads too big for their pugrees and some are getting a little too big for their dhotis (and i don`t mean th at as a compliment to their masculinity !) ............. it seems this bpo/ito stuff has gone to their heads ...... i don`t grudge them thie new found place under the sun after centuries of squatting by the roadside, but this by no means gives them the right to be hateful towards fellow roadside squatters from the right side of the border .........

........... but i am an optimist and one of these days, after we have managed to get rid of goons in khaki and their halwa brigades, the pakis should be able to pay them back in spades - after all, we are better looking and kill cows to eat them .............

Faisaluno has been class act throughout and is only dealing with gobar gao mutra injuns hell bent on negative propoganda about Pakistan. We cannot fault him. And he has given them a good firm beating. Go faisaluno.

hamidm2#whichever
I am the one having the last laugh here. The best thing my country`s founding fathers ever did for me was to kick you whiners, freeloaders and terrorists out.The problem is now reduced to keeping you out.

honestly, i dont come here to fight. nor do i come here very often. but whenever i do, i find the same budboodaar indians spreading their gundagee. and since chowk-staff have no intentions of keeping this place saaf suthra, someone must so the dirty job.

faisal 7 ; arjun 2

.......... i think this round goes to faisal even though he is an amateur compared to gujjubania, arjun, frau sadna and other shiv saniks at this sort of thing .......... shiv sanik?...... i might be wrong but i think that`s what they call those guys and gals with khaki shorts and big pitchforks who are out to avenge a thousand years of humiliation at the hands of turkic muslim invaders and the local converts ....... it is sad to see this display of juvenile one upmanship (or womanship) but since the dung flinging match is on i feel obliged to support the pakistani team ...........

..... good job, faisal !

p.s. typically, at this point the schoolyard brawl is setted by one of the boys pulling down his shorts to prove that he is bigger ............. frau sadna keeps the issue from being resolved in this time honored manner ...........

so how many indians did pakistani terrorists killed last year?

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=338167

Encephalitis toll in eastern UP rises to 1103

The toll from Japanese Encephalitis in eastern Uttar Pradesh reached 1103 today with one more person falling prey to the deadly disease since last night, official sources said here.

A total of 4585 patients have been admitted to the BRD medical college here and district hospitals of adjoining districts since the outbreak of the disease, additional director (health) C B M Tripathi said.

Maybe India needs to stop giving visas to pakis seeking medical treatment in India..why is it India`s problem if Pakiland has really poor medical facilities?

PAKISTAN: Rare Congo fever kills three people

ISLAMABAD, 27 Feb 2002 (IRIN) - Three people have died in Pakistan of what health authorities suspect is a rare incidence of the highly contagious Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic fever (CCHF).

Prof Abbas of the Holy Family Hospital in Rawalpindi, near the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, told IRIN that the three had died in the past week, including a woman doctor who caught the virus while treating a female patient.

hey pakistanis, we need to check pakistanis who travel to india. otoh, some of their diseases are exotic so it might be pointless. maybe we should suspend all contacts:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050718/asp/nation/story_5002970.asp

Monkey virus breaches human barrier

Monkeys may be revered residents in temples across South Asia. But scientists have warned that a virus called SFV might jump from temple monkeys into humans.

Scientists say SFV — or simian foamy virus — does not cause disease in monkeys or humans, but they point out that the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) that causes AIDS emerged decades ago after a relatively harmless virus crossed the “species barrier” from monkeys into humans.

The name of the baby in the photo is Noor Fatima..

Pakistani baby bus traveller operated on in India

A two-year-old Pakistani girl who had holes in her heart and came to India on a newly resumed bus service for treatment underwent successful surgery on Tuesday, medical officials said. Surgeons in the southern Indian city of Bangalore operated on Noor Fatima for six hours to fix the two holes in her heart and a valve problem she was born with, they said. Fatima and her parents were among the passengers travelling from Pakistan to India last week on the first bus service in 18 months between the nuclear-armed neighbours. The two countries severed all transport links and came close to war over the Kashmir dispute last year. Since her arrival in New Delhi after a 13-hour journey from the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore, Indians made donations and prayed for the Pakistani girl, seen as a symbol of the thaw in ties between the South Asian rivals. ``A lot of people offered prayers so that everything goes well. Their prayers have been answered,`` a spokesman for the Narayana Hrudayalaya hospital in Bangalore told Reuters.

Fatima`s father, Nadeem Sajjad, a scientist at a fertiliser company in Pakistan, said doctors at the hospital had worked hard at the operation. ``If the two countries attain peace because of this, then what can be better?`` Sajjad told Reuters. India is becoming a popular low-cost destination for complicated surgeries and medical treatment for people in its neighbourhood. But the absence of direct transport links had hit Pakistanis wanting to access such services. Flying to India through third countries is expensive. India and Pakistan are trying to build on a thaw in ties after Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee in April urged talks to resolve the Kashmir dispute, the chief cause of their animosity.

here is another growth medical industry in india aka tuttistan:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stories/20060324002304300.htm

Kidney Sale Centre,`` proclaims a banner sprawled across a ramshackle bamboo tent at Shingnapur village in Amravati district of Maharashtra. The farmers here are threatening to sell their kidneys. ``We have invited the Prime Minister and the President to inaugurate this kidney shop. They should allow us to sell our kidneys. We are all ruined by debt. Many farmers are killing themselves. Our kidneys are all we have left to sell,`` says Madhavgir Champat Giri, who sold all his land to pay his bank loan.

A reality test for Pakistan

By Tariq Fatemi

GIVEN the tremendous hype that surrounded President Bush’s visit to Pakistan, there was a strong desire to go for an instant analysis, but this may not necessarily have been objective. Now that the leaders have spoken extensively, a fairly accurate and balanced assessment of the visit to Islamabad, and a brief comparison of it with that to New Delhi, can be made.

There is, of course, widespread joy and satisfaction in New Delhi and this is well-merited. At the same time, there is considerable disquiet and uncertainty in Islamabad and this, too, is understandable. But neither of these two reactions are surprising. A close reading of statements emanating from Washington and New Delhi in the past year, and especially since July 2005, when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President George Bush concluded their far-reaching understandings, it was clear that the two countries had taken decisions that were not only remarkable in their scale and ambition, but that also represented a radical transformation in policies.


The Bush visit was indeed a reality test for us for the US used the visit to confirm the death of its hyphenated policy in South Asia. US relations with Pakistan and India are no longer a zero sum game, the US proclaims with a callousness that only a super power can demonstrate. In that sense, it was not a pleasant experience for us. But it can nevertheless serve a useful purpose, provided we agree to remove the blinkers we have placed over our eyes.

Yeah but what is the reaction of Kashmiri newspapers?

www.greaterkashmir.com
2 MILITANTS KILLED IN PAMPORE
GK NEWS SERVICE
Srinagar, Mar 15: Two militants were killed in an encounter with troops in Pampore area of Pulwama district while unidentified gunmen shot at and injured a civilian in Kathua district of Jammu.
Reports said two militants of Jaish outfit were killed in a nightlong encounter with troops of 50 Rashtriya Rifles and Police at Chandhara Pampore. The encounter broke out after troops cordoned of the village on Tuesday evening
and zeroed in the house of Firdous Ahmad Ganie.
The militants tried to break the cordon and fired on the troops. The exchange of fire continued throughout the night, reports said, adding two militants Zubair Ahmad Lone alias Irfan of Sempora and Ehtisham Pakistan were killed.
The house in which the militants had taken shelter was completely damaged in the firing. Police claimed recovery of arms and ammunition from the encounter site.
Jaish spokesperson, Abu Kudama in a telephonic statement to local news agency CNS claimed that several troopers were killed in the encounter.
Meanwhile, hundreds of people of Pampore and adjoining areas came on streets, shouting anti-India and pro-freedom slogans. The militants were later buried in the local martyrs graveyard.
In Balwal village of Jammu’s Kathua district, unidentified gunmen fired upon Sanjay Kumar, injuring him seriously. He was hospitalised.


www.kashmirtimes.com
I can`t find the news item on 15,16 or 17 March.

#138 by faisaluno on March 18, 2006 9:53am PT


hwy pakistanis, check out the reaction in iok at the death of pakistani terrorist:


They react by letting themselves be photographed so the Indian army can identify them as terrorist supporters and do what`s necessary?

smart move..

hwy pakistanis, check out the reaction in iok at the death of pakistani terrorist:

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=pakistan&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8&c=images&b=91&fr=FP-tab-news-t&c=images&b=101

Kashmiri Muslim villagers shouts pro freedom slogans during the funeral procession of a suspected militant at Sambora some 30 kilometers (12.5 miles) south of Srinagar, India, Wednesday, March 15, 2006. Thousands of men and women shouting pro freedom slogans took part in the funeral procession of two suspected Islamic guerrillas belonging to the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammad killed in a gun battle with Indian security forces on Tuesday, police said. (AP Photo/ Dar Yasin)

hwy pakistanis, check out the reaction in iok at the death of pakistani terrorist:

http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=pakistan&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8&c=images&b=91&fr=FP-tab-news-t&c=images&b=101

Kashmiri Muslim villagers shouts pro freedom slogans during the funeral procession of a suspected militant at Sambora some 30 kilometers (12.5 miles) south of Srinagar, India, Wednesday, March 15, 2006. Thousands of men and women shouting pro freedom slogans took part in the funeral procession of two suspected Islamic guerrillas belonging to the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammad killed in a gun battle with Indian security forces on Tuesday, police said. (AP Photo/ Dar Yasin)

what was that about little fires burning?

21 Children Among Dead in Pakistan Blast

By NASEER KAKAR
Associated Press Writer
Published March 10, 2006, 11:26 AM CST

QUETTA, Pakistan -- A crowded bus carrying a wedding party hit an anti-tank mine Friday in a volatile region of southwestern Pakistan, killing at least 30 people and wounding eight, a doctor and officials said.

Dr. Sher Zaman, who tended to the injured, said the dead included 21 children and five women.

Officials said rescuers took the injured to hospitals as swiftly as possible in the remote, mine-laden area. Residents told The Associated Press by telephone that no ambulances or government medical teams reached the victims until seven hours after the blast.

The unrest in Baluchistan`s tribal areas has raised fears of a repeat of violence that rocked the province in the 1970s, when thousands died in a large-scale military operation against rebellious tribesmen.

Here is very disturbing video and very graphic. Some of you may not want
to watch it.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/video_released_by_al_qaeda_in_pakistan_Mar_17_2006.html

But in a P*ki society where bloodletting is rampant and children are forced to view
ritualistic painful killing of animals and streets flow with blood on their religious days -
people get accustomed to violence and can easily transfer their
violence onto other humans , once they realize it is justified in their books.

There is a huge Gulf in the value system of Pakiland and India. (yes: pun intended)
In 60 years - P*kis have successfully created an Arab tribal culture.
The Arabs can get away with it because of oil - P*kis are left holding the holy book.

Faisluno falsely claims that `Bhutto started an islamization drive. The islamization drive
had started long before Bhutto. Once the land of the Pure came into existence on
Aug-14 1947, the islamization drive, which was underneath, could come out into
the open and took of in earnest.

imran khan is playing a very dangerous game. he realises that on his own, he will never achieve power so he is hoping to piggyback on jamaatis. in essence he is a tool in the hands of right wing facist elements who are using islam in their quest for power. if imran khan is a democrat as he claims to be, why is he aligning himself with a party whose main goal is the implementation of hasba bill which is neither islamic and certainly not democratic. ditto for mma and separate electorate.

btw here is what happens when mullahs are allowed to assume power in cloak of democracy:

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10932

Iranian journalist Akbar Ganji released

Ganji was jailed in 2000 for linking senior officials to the murder of dissidents in his articles

Iran`s famous journalist Akbar Ganji has been freed after six years behind bars, his lawyer has said.

``Ganji was freed late Friday after spending about six years in jail,`` his lawyer Yousef Mowlaei told The Associated Press.

Ganji was jailed in 2000 for linking senior officials to the murder of dissidents in some of his articles.

He wrote that murders of five dissidents were carried out by Intelligence Ministry agents and became a hero to the country`s reformists.

...The Iranian journalist went on a hunger strike for more than 80 days from May 19, 2005 until early August, 2005 except for a 12-day period of leave he was granted ahead of the country’s June 17, 2005 presidential elections.

...Interviewed by numerous news agencies during his leave in June 2005, Ganji criticised Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader of Iran, and asked for his office to be put to public vote, which led to his re-arrest by Saeed Mortazavi, the general prosecutor of Tehran.

Aww..pakis still smarting from the Bush jhapad in islamabad....hey pakis..your unacceptability of discrimination is unacceptable(and really irrelevant)..

BTW: First pakis asked for a nuke deal..then when they got smacked down they said they didn`t want a deal to begin with...now they`re saying they want a deal and they`re being discriminated against?

make up your mind already...

Indo-US accord termed threat to security: Discrimination unacceptable: FO


ISLAMABAD, March 17: Pakistan on Friday cautioned that grant of waiver by the US Congress to the agreement with India on civilian nuclear cooperation would have serious implications for the security environment in South Asia and said it would not accept any discriminatory treatment.

The Bush administration has sought a waiver from the US Congress for the implementation of the US-India agreement.

“The grant of the waiver as a special case will have serious implications for the security environment in South Asia as well as for international non-proliferation efforts,” the Foreign Office spokesperson said in a statement here.

The spokesperson said the proposed exception for India would not be helpful to the shared objectives of stability in South Asia.

“The agreement, which keeps a large number of facilities and reactors, including breeder reactors, outside safeguards, would only encourage India to continue its weapons programme without any constraint or inhibition.

#132 by Ramanujan on March 18, 2006 9:30am PT

You mean average decent non-jihadi pakis like these ones?(the few that there are)

Yeah to say that Indian Muslims are Indians not Pakistani stooges is of course to `emanate hatred` according to `liberal` Pakistanis. Facts of life hate Pakistanis.

Re: #25 by faisaluno

Is that why Pakis are coming across the border to the Indian hospitals in DROVES literally BEGGING for their children/themselves to be operated on?

Why can`t they stick to their own hospitals if they are so good?

:D

98 by HisExcellency on March 17, 2006 7:30pm PT


Your soldiers are killing each other. You can`t withdraw troops from cities. You can`t withdraw troops from the villages.


So this would be a good time for allah`s own army, the paki army, to launch an operation to take parts of Kashmir...take over parts of Indian Kashmir...the Indian army, according to your own analysis, is tied up...so it won`t be able to do anything about it..maybe your can cut off access to Siachen and finally take control of Siachen...

I hear the grass on the mountains is excellent this time of the year...it`s almost zagat rated...

#109 by bbabu on March 17, 2006 8:25pm PT

How many indians have died as a result of paki terrorism: 5,000
How many pakis + Kashmiris have died(according to paki figures): 100,000

So there are 20 Kashmiri/Pakis dying fo for every Indian..

Seems to me we`ll run out of kashmiris/pakis before Kashmir banega Pakistan..

Faisal

Do you think Imran Khan`s agenda which is largely political and not at all religious per se... is anything like the Islamic revolutionaries of Iran?

Re: # 122

My apologies for putting you in that baba saheb dress!

Let me correct myself-

Sir, You need to get that beard untangled from your nada before you can speak for the muslims of this planet............

manto, a lot of secular people supported the iranian revolution thinking that clerics wanted democracy. we know their fate after mullahs came to power. btw, i dont take the great khan seriously. he has 1 seat to show for 10 yrs of effort. awam is not buying his agenda despite the fact that he gets more spotlight in the media than most popular politicians. in fact great khan cant get elected from his own city tells you pretty much what the awam thinks of his agenda.

people tend to forget that until the mid-seventies when bhutto started the islamisation drive, turkey and pak were fairly similar in terms of culture. for instance, bars. clubs and gambling were a part of urban pak society much like in turkey. also funny to see fundos arguing for real democracy. i think we need to ask them their views on iranian political system.

Faisal...

A very well thought out post and I agree with you completely.

The emergence of Erdogan as a populist Islamist politician who nonetheless is willing to accept a secular state structure (with a small s instead of military`s capital S) and even protect it while also remaining true to his Islamic agenda is the direct result of Turkey`s experiment with Republican democracy that started in 1924.

However your blanket denounciation of Imran Khan in the same way as Jamaatias and other Islamists is wrong... the New Yorker interestingly invented a very nice term for the man ``Islamic populist``... take out the anti-American noise the great Khan is making at the moment... and you will find that Imran Khan and Teyyib Erdogan are almost entirely similar in their political views...


By the way :







Liz was married to Hugh grant who is now going to marry Jemima - Khan`s ex wife...

here is another muslim country with a history fairly similar to that of pak whose citizens have a love hate relationship with the u.s. note that this is a person from an islamist background and this a country with a history of corruption and military rule like pak. main difference is that turkish establishment has followed an overtly secular agenda although this agenda has not stuck a chord with the awam nor have secular parties gained any traction. also noteworthy that views of the islamist pm radically differs from the views of nut job pak islamists like imran khan/jamatis and his recommendations seem more in line with that of pak government`s recommendation to uncle sam.

Tayyip Erdogan
After Ataturk
Wall Street Journal

ANKARA -- ``They might ban you from re-entering the United States,`` Tayyip Erdogan says with a smile. I`ve just told him I`ve been to see the anti-American, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian Turkish blockbuster ``Valley of the Wolves -- Iraq.`` And the Turkish prime minister deflects my follow-up about whether he`s seen it as well. ``What did you think of the movie?`` he says, turning interviewer himself. To which I reply that it made me sad. While there are many things one might criticize about U.S. policy in Iraq -- and I do go out of my way to concede this point -- the suggestion that U.S. troops are murdering and dismembering Iraqis to facilitate a Jewish organ-selling scheme isn`t one of them.

...Only a year ago many intellectuals and politicians in Turkey seemed to be in the grip of anti-American madness. Headlines calling U.S. soldiers ``Murderer Johnny`` were the norm atop newspaper articles describing imagined atrocities such as the use of chemical weapons -- and, yes, organ theft -- committed against civilians in Iraq. Turkey`s opposition leader accused the CIA of plotting an internal party coup against him. And there were reports that secret U.S. nuclear testing had been the real cause of the Indian Ocean tsunami. Needless to say, this wasn`t exactly becoming behavior for a NATO ally -- and I said so, in a February 2005 op-ed piece on these pages (available on OpinionJournal.com) that might be described, fairly, as having pulled no punches in its account of Turkish anti-Americanism.

...To his immense credit, Mr. Erdogan does not himself traffic in anti-American rhetoric. And he reaffirms the value of Turkey`s ``strategic partnership`` with the U.S. But neither will he just come straight out and condemn this movie, which is probably the most religiously and racially divisive film to reach mass audiences in Europe since World War II.

``I believe the people who made this movie took media reports as their basis . . . for example Abu Ghraib prison -- we have seen this on TV, and now we are watching Guantanamo Bay in the world media, and of course it could be that this movie was prepared under these influences,`` Mr. Erdogan says. ``Of course,`` I reply, ``but do you believe that many Turks have such a view of America, that we`re the kind of people who`d go to Iraq and kill people to take their organs?``

Mr. Erdogan: ``These kind of things happen in the world. If it`s not happening in Iraq, then it`s happening in other countries.`` Me: ``Which kind of things? Killing people to take their organs?`` Mr. Erdogan: ``I`m not saying they are being killed. . . . There are people in poverty who use this as a means to get money. But of course the things portrayed in the movie are different things.`` Well, thanks for clearing that up!

I am a little disappointed. Mr. Erdogan tells me he wants an ``alliance of civilizations, not a clash of civilizations.`` He tells me he wants Turkey to be a ``bridge`` between East and West. But that role would seem to require a little more leadership on such obvious cases of defamation.

I move on to the issue of what America can do to improve its image in Turkey. Mr. Erdogan cites ``developments in Iraq`` as the main source of the problem. I ask if he`s uncomfortable with the U.S. strategy of promoting democracy in the region. He tells me that ``As Turkey, we are trying to convey our own deep experience with democracy to the region. That`s why we have taken part in the [U.S.-backed] Greater Middle Eastern project. . . . We`re working on democracy, human rights and the rule of law.`` But he stresses that ``we believe that all problems can be solved and should be solved at the negotiating table`` and that ``pushing, pressuring is not going to give any results.`` The bottom line: ``We have the same idea as the United States regarding the goal of the project but maybe the method which should be used is different.``

...Ever since Mr. Erdogan`s Islamic-oriented Justice and Development Party swept to power on 35% of the vote in 2002 elections (amazingly, only one other party passed the 10% threshold for parliamentary representation), people have questioned whether his smooth manner wasn`t cover for a more radical agenda to fundamentally change the secular character of the Turkish Republic established by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. I see no reason to believe this is the case.

Socially, Justice and Development might be best analogized to ``family values`` conservatives here in the U.S. -- albeit a bit extreme, perhaps Mormonesque, in their dedication to clean living. (No alcohol, obviously, and smoking, too, is frowned on.) Economically, Mr. Erdogan would fit comfortably into the mainstream of American conservatism. His is the most effective government to lead Turkey for more than a decade, and he has used his large majority in Parliament to pass the hard but necessary reforms needed to prepare Turkey for membership in the European Union and in the modern world generally.

No, if there is any cause for concern here, it would be the undeniable fact that Turkey`s first successful overtly Islamic prime minister has cultural and foreign policy compasses different from those of earlier Turkish leaders, who have inclined steadily toward the West. I sense a deeper estrangement at work than mere disagreement over Iraq, and whether or not to use force to remove roadblocks to democracy in the Middle East. ``When we took office there was a Turkey which was not having talks with its neighbors. Now Turkey is having a dialogue with all of them. That`s why we don`t want any bombs to fall anymore in our region,`` Mr. Erdogan says.

As I said earlier :

India : Hindu
Pakistan : Muslim
America : Christian

Have I left anything unsaid?

re: #117

Ballu, our national dress, the shalwar kameez, has no zippers. We still like to wear it wih pride. Just like Hindus like to wear cargo pants, mesh tops, bikinis and mini skirts with pride. Aping (the West) comes naturally to them. Worshipping Hanuman has its benefits.

hamidm...

Thankyou for pointing out the awful smell emanating from a mixture of heeng and halwa... on this board.

[I was in pakistan just last december and I notice how there is a sort of schizophrenia in the country: people are craving for the West, especially the US, whilst at the same time, pretending they loath it. ]

You have given a very good analysis. Schizophrenia among pakistanis is also becoming common in Australia. Here is a pakistani oz councillor describing how it happens, in a chowk article. He says pakistanis in australia lead a double life: one at home and one outside.

According to him, that is why they end up gangraping very young australian children or in sudden fits of schizophrenia begin to believe they are actually western australian women.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00006415

.............. pheew ! (as i hold my nose and walk past) ..........


.......... i see that the strong smell of heeng, halwa and hatred on this board has attracted frau sadna, hisexcellency, gujjubania and others of their ilk ............

Hi Sal! Salams, yaar. Haven`t heard from you in ages!! email me at asifjuk@gmail.com. I need to chat.any news from B?
Thanks!
Asif
***

Interesting article; I agree with most of what you`ve written. I was in pakistan just last december and I notice how there is a sort of schizophrenia in the country: people are craving for the West, especially the US, whilst at the same time, pretending they loath it.
I think it is lack of achievement on the global scale, the social problems which beset pakistan, the lack of opportunities for the youth, and a justifiable pride in being part of a global Ummah which was once great which cause this.

The biggest single complaint though I heard was NOT about america or any other nation but about the corruption of the government-from local level to the president and from the local chapraasi to the governor which is rife throughout pakistani society. it is a vicious circle because the very same people who complain themselves are corrupt too since `it is part of society here!.

I think pakistan needs something radical to happen to change itself: a complete change of priorities and realignment of national objectives with education at the forefront. this will require massive public spending on education on an unprecedented scale. but this in turn will require peace with india. on this i think we have to face reality and admit that any peace will largely be on indian terms as they are america`s chosen strategic long term partner in the region and india is a rising global power.

this is where the US could help by providing such funding and by not supporting dictators just for its own short-term tactical goals in the region (`war on terror`) and insist on real democracy in pakistan.

HisExcellency

HE your beard is struck in your pant`s zipper...................can you first get it off before your try to sermonize to the muslim of this planet!!!

This is for HisExcellency -

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop bullying Pathans, Baluchs, Sindhis, Mohajirs, Shias, Ahmedis, Hindus and Christians. Dont kill Shias and Christians in their mosques and churches. Dont forcibly convert Christians and Hindus.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Give Baluchis, Pathans, Sindhis and Mohajirs their freedom. They do not want to live in Pakistan at all. They want to get out and form their own countries - Baluchistan, Pashtunistan, Sindhudesh and Jinnahpur. Give them their right to self-determination and their God given right to follow their own destiny. They do not want to live with Punjabis any more.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Punjabis stop pretending that you are Afghan warriors. This is a huge delusion. Your ancestors were the hindus that got enslaved and raped by Ghaznavi and Ghauri. Your ancestors lost their temples in Multan and Lahore. Afghanistan has clearly told you NOT to name your missiles after Ghaznavi and Ghauri, since they were not Pakistani. Your ancestors lost to the Sikhs who are only 2% of India. Therefore, your entire lineage is of losers. In future you will lose to Afghanistan and India again. If 2% Sikhs could rule you, imagine what 2% sikhs and 98% hindus/muslims from India will do to you some day.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop misusing and abusing Islam as a religion. Islam is practiced by 120 million Indians and they are happy, peaceful and prosperous. You have taken a great religion and transformed it into an ugly, grotesque cult that is based on jihadi violence which has turned you into rabid dogs. That kind of violence will be replied by severe counter-violence. The world knows how to kill rabid dogs. If you do not clean up, US and India will enter your country, throw out your nukes and set things straight.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop dreaming of a Punjabi empire in Afghanistan and Kashmir. It will never happen. It never existed in history and it will never exist in the future. Afghanistan used to loot and rape you every 2 years. They will never live under Punjabi empire disguised by Islam. Already Afghanistan is best friends with India. Also Punjabis never ruled Kashmir. It was ruled by Indians always. The Indian muslim kings from Delhi ruled Kashmir, the Sikhs from India ruled Kashmir and then the Dogras from India ruled Kashmir. No one from Pakistan ever ruled Kashmir. So it will never happen.

PAKISTAN MANIFESTO: Stop spending your money on your stupid Punjabi muslim military. It is the most useless organization in the world, except for doing Chaprasi duty for the US. It has not won a single war but has lost to everyone. It lost half of your territory in 1971 to Indians led by a Sikh Gen Jagjit Singh Arora. It failed in Kargil. It has ruled you for 2/3 of your existence and eats up most of your resources. Now it is killing Baluch and Pathans and doing chaprasi or servant work for US.

Nah I take it back. Too optimistic. Even that you couldn`t do without help from some chinese hands.

[actually use a teeny weeny one just to see the look on everyone`s faces.]

If you pakis really had nuclear weapons, your itching fingers would have pressed the button long back. Your bomb is like everything else of yours - delusional fantasy. Keep stroking it hard hoping for a 420kiloton mess on your hands.

#91 by HisExcellency

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We must all build nuclear weapons and help each other do the same.

Let me add the following at the end ... and actually use a teeny weeny one just to see the look on everyone`s faces.

#various from His Excellency

(Where did this one come from? I thought there was just one on this site - but the gender does not match.)

My comments are restrained because I am trying to learn ``decorum``! (I guess you are trying to teach chowk decorum to everybody through example - just the way chowk staff likes it!)

Anyhow, I just wanted to let you know that Manto and Tahmed are not biting - since their collective behinds are still smarting from the whippings from Mr. Asadi`s verbal lashes - administered strictly ``by the Book`` - you know Mr. Asadi, your more ``refined`` counterpart!

By the way, how come you did not include ``USA`` in your list? I suppose you just like to be kind to the USA.

#91 HISEXECELLENCY


Stop spending on defense. All the fighter jets and nukes in the world will not protect you from the Muslim wrath that is building up against you because of Kashmir.

Or the wrath is on the decline...Recent fatwas by Indian Muslims against terrorists..invitation to India to join OIC...

But you need not know all this. True to your name, you should live in clouds.

Kashmir banega Pakistan? Well before that Pakistan banega West Bangladesh.

HisExcellency #92

`` Non-Muslims are kafir by definition. Their places of worship should be protected but only if they respect the right to life, property, political expression and religion of Muslims. Nations like India and Israel do not. So their temples and synagogues are just targets (inside India and Israel). ``

Tell me any Muslim country governed in accordance to Islamic principles. Try following your religion.

`` Remember the ``get out of the kitchen if you can`t take the heat`` advice I had given to Indians on this forum? ``

I remmeber Mushy`s layoff comment.

`` You guys thought Hindus could impose their will on the Kashmiris and Pakistanis. You thought Pakistan and Kashmiris could do nothing but squirm at the sight of Kashmiris dying in Srinagar and Baramulla. ``

It has been 17 years since current troubles in Kashmir began. Indian Army still has 700,000 troops according to Pakistani propaganda.

`` Well who is squirming now? Jihad has been taken right to the Indian people. Little fires are burning in Varanasi, Akshadharam and Delhi. The next chapter in Kashmir Jihad just began. Even J.K.Rowling couldn`t have written a better script. Happy reading. ``

Yawn

#103
``Indian Muslims are Indian but Indian Hindus are not! ``

huh? Didn`t know Pakistani planners were so much off their rockers. You can`t hold a fair general election to save your lives and you are off giving orders to Indian Muslims to `rescue India` to your specifications. Just one visit of GW Bush and you are all running around like headless chicken. It might be a good idea to reserve a suite permanently for him in some five star hotel in N.Delhi and get him over every six months or so to send you to the asylums permanently. And a few nice bombings in key areas of Pakistan meanwhile..(two can play the game if thats what it takes).

re:#103 by HisExcellency
Hope u are not on drug of something.
I don`t see any major upheavels.
Even if it happens, India can handle it, the way it has done in the past.
Every terrorist attack is one more nail in Pakisan`s coffin.
Sridhar

re:#101 by HisExcellency
You mean Pak will last that long.
The question being asked here is: what next?
Is it IRAN
or is it IROP (Islamic Republic of Pukistan).
As Pukistan gets itself entangled in this web, it is firmly entrenched on a roller coaster road to the oblivion.
I think i am going to enjoy the show.
Sridhar

re: #94 kaalchakra

[This is not a war that Muslims will win.]

May be you`re right. But then again, may be you`re not. There is only one way of knowing...

re: Where was the plot for London Bombings hatched?
This is really a no-brainer.
I won`t even answer the question. You all know the answer already.
BTW, i counted Pakistan/Pakistani 12 times in the following LA article.
Pakistan is indeed becoming globally famous. For all the wrong reasons.
Article from LA Times
(Who Guided London`s Attackers?
Police know a lot about last year`s transit system plots. Connecting the dots is another story.
By Sebastian Rotella
Times Staff Writer

March 6, 2006
Quote:

LONDON — This is how the youngest bomber spent his last hour:

When three explosions shut down the subway system before Hasib Hussain reached his target on the Northern Line, the 18-year-old wandered in a seeming daze. He ate at a McDonald`s. He went into a pharmacy. He repeatedly called his dead coconspirators` cellphones. Finally, he boarded a double-decker bus and blew it up as police sirens approached.

In the eight months since Hussain and three other suicide bombers killed 52 people on the transport system here July 7, police have reconstructed parts of the plot in minute detail. They have found that the multiple attack was cheap as well as simple. It cost less than $5,000, said Det. Supt. Peter Wickstead, the chief of an anti-terrorism finance investigation unit, at a recent conference here.(My comments: No prizes for guessing where Hussain is from)

But anti-terrorism officials say the investigations of the bombings and failed follow-up attacks on July 21 have been slow and difficult. Not only are extremist networks murky and fragmented, but investigators also have run into resistance and radicalization on the street: In a recent poll of British Muslims, almost a quarter of respondents said they felt some sympathy with the motives of the subway bombers.

``The absence of hard data on 7/7 is striking,`` Shamit Saggar, a political science professor at the University of Sussex, said at the conference at the Royal United Services Institute think tank. ``The only way we can explain that is as a significant circle of tacit support existing in that community.``

Three of the four dead bombers were middle-class Britons of Pakistani origin from the northern region of Yorkshire. Investigators suspect that they got help and training from an Al Qaeda network in Pakistan that had targeted Britain before. In contrast, the imprisoned would-be bombers who on July 21 tried to blow up three trains and a bus were East African refugees and ex-convicts based in London.

Despite the timing and similarities, police have found no concrete links between the two groups, anti-terrorism officials said.

``July 7 and July 21 seem not to be related,`` said a British counter-terrorism official, who, like others interviewed, requested anonymity because the cases remained open. ``The picture of July 21 is much fuzzier as far as travel, training and network links.``

Nonetheless, a July 21 suspect did travel to Pakistan months before the attacks, British and Italian officials said. That increases the likelihood of a link because three July 7 plotters also traveled to Pakistan and are suspected of contact with a terrorism network there. Few details are available about the trip by the July 21 suspect, which was reported last week by the Sunday Times of London.

Because of laws limiting discussion of ongoing court cases, the security forces are reluctant to reveal what they know. But in recent interviews, officials did say investigators had accumulated considerable information about the dead bombers and living suspects and their activities in Britain. The problem has been determining the role of possible masterminds, trainers and other figures, officials said.

The same difficulty has beset cases such as the 2004 train bombings in Madrid, where questions persist about whether Al Qaeda figures outside Spain gave orders to several dozen suspects who are jailed or dead. Home-grown jihadis usually need some outside direction and expertise. In London as in Madrid, however, the possibility exists that there may not be much more to the attacks than meets the eye.

The assault on London`s subways culminated a transformation in extremism in recent years: Operatives with British roots replaced foreigners, predominantly North Africans and Gulf Arabs, as the foremost threat here. Police were forced to ``change completely our concept of operations,`` Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke of Scotland Yard said in a speech at the two-day conference on politics and terrorism.

Clarke is Britain`s top anti-terrorism investigator. During the frenzy ignited by the July attacks, he became the public face of the police response: a bespectacled, low-key detective exuding both determination and restraint. Last week, his assessment of the enduring threat was gloomy. He said the Al Qaeda terrorist network had a 50-year strategy in its war on the West.

``We have achieved a lot in terms of our understanding what we are dealing with,`` Clarke said. ``I think that five to 10 years to get a grip on it is hopelessly optimistic. I don`t think we are anywhere near it. It`s an evolving threat. It`s a changing threat. It`s incredibly resilient.``

Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the July 7 bombings in a video featuring its second in command, Ayman Zawahiri, who is thought to be hiding in the Pakistani-Afghan borderlands. Images of Zawahiri appeared in a previous video with the defiant ``martyrdom message`` of Mohamed Sidique Khan, the 30-year-old former primary school teacher who led the cell.

It has been ``clearly established`` that Khan got training in Pakistan, which he visited in 2004 and 2005, the counterterrorism official who requested anonymity said. Bombers Shahzad Tanweer and Hussain also visited Pakistan, their families` country of origin. They allegedly were recruited by a Pakistani network that had been involved in a foiled bomb attack in London by Pakistani Britons in 2004.

In fact, Khan became known to security forces during the 2004 case, identified only as Ibrahim, a figure on the edge of the foiled plot, a British security official said. Investigators decided he was not significant enough to keep under surveillance, officials said.

The self-contained nature of Islamic terrorism cells makes it possible that the bombers themselves, most likely Khan, chose the targets and prepared the homemade explosives in an apartment bomb factory.

But questions remain: Why did they leave behind hoards of explosives in a bathtub at the safe house and in the trunk of the car they left parked north of London? Were others, perhaps an expert bomb maker, involved?

``The degree of the training Khan received is questionable,`` the security official said. ``They left a great deal of explosive mixture, and it was so volatile. We don`t know whether they had the capacity to make that. Khan was certainly the recruiter: bright, articulate, a good talker.``

Whether for technical direction or mere inspiration, the bombers were in contact with Pakistan and elsewhere by phone in the final months. Police must still untangle an Al Qaeda web — one involved in previous plots against Britain — based in Pakistan, not an easy country for Western agencies to decipher. Moreover, investigators are still examining a trip that Khan made to Israel, possibly a reconnaissance mission, shortly before two Pakistani Britons carried out a suicide bombing at a Tel Aviv nightclub in 2003.

In the July 21 subway attack in London, police have the great advantage that the five accused would-be bombers are alive and behind bars: the four whose backpack bombs failed to ignite fully and a Ghanaian who allegedly aborted his attempt. Seventeen suspects have been charged, mostly friends and relatives accused of sheltering the fugitives during a manhunt.

But nothing made public substantially alters the account in the confession of Hamdi Issac, an Ethiopian-born suspect captured in Rome and extradited to London. During his interrogation in Rome, Issac described an improvised, low-tech plot in which his group decided to pay tribute to the July 7 bombers and put together their plan and bombs in two weeks, Italian anti-terrorism officials said. Issac named an Eritrean-born exconvict, Muktar Said Ibrahim, as the recruiter and bomb maker, Italian officials said.

There are serious doubts about aspects of the story, particularly the claim that the backpacks contained a nonlethal mix intended to frighten, not kill. Although officials say they have not connected the two plots, that does not necessarily mean the cells weren`t directed from afar by the same network.

The trip to Pakistan by one July 21 suspect, whose name has not been revealed, suggests that he could have received orders and instruction there. In the past, Al Qaeda has dispatched selected operatives to lead terrorist cells whose members knew little about contact with the network.

The case ``is still very difficult,`` a former top security official said. ``Was it really just emulation?``

A significant development was the arrest in December of Adel Yahya, 23, a North London man captured as he stepped off a plane from his native Ethiopia. Police charged him with conspiring with the five would-be bombers, suggesting a front-line role.

At first, it appeared that the accused bombers, four of whom came from Ethiopia, Somalia or Eritrea as youths, were products of a radical, multiethnic mosque scene in London that has little relation to Islamic networks in their war-torn homelands. Now investigators are reexamining their activities and potential ties to others.

In at least two incidents during the last year, suspected East African militants have been detected conducting reconnaissance of Western embassies in Malaysia, which is not their typical area of operation, the British counter-terrorism official who was interviewed said.

The details may remain secret until after the trial on the July 21 attacks, which could start by September.

As in Madrid, where police have named suspected leaders in court documents but not charged them, some experts believe the July 7 plot, in particular, involved skilled Al Qaeda operatives who traveled to Britain or called shots from abroad.

``I call them mystery men,`` said Sajjan Gohel of the Asia-Pacific Foundation, which monitors terrorism. ``They set up the cell, they facilitate, preparing bombs, they do everything. Then they disappear.``

But British officials cautioned against the idea that they had their sights on a fugitive mastermind.

``It`s dangerous to credit the plot with too much intellectual rigor,`` the British security official said. ``The [subway] was a natural target, we knew that…. And suicide bombers don`t need a lot of training.``)
Sridhar

re: #100

[Indian Muslims are Indians not Pakistani stooges.]

Indian Muslims are Indian but Indian Hindus are not!
Indian Muslims aren`t taking to the gun for the sake of Pakistan. They are doing it for the sake of India. To save the dream of Mahatama Gandhi`s India, from the reality of Hindu revivalism.

re: #93 by arjun_m

[any idea how long this will take?]

We are not in any hurry are we? Don`t skip to chapter three, arjun.

#93 by arjun_m

[so Kashmir banega Pakistan?]

We are not talking Kashmir now. The ante has been upped. But if you wait patiently (say 24 months), you`ll get the picture yourself.

#98
You don`t get the point and don`t get it even after 60 years. Indian Muslims are Indians not Pakistani stooges.

re: All terrorist roads lead to Pakistan: Bitta Karate of Kashmir Liberation Front confesses to killing innocent people and getting the training to kill from Pakistan
All of this is on the video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-124541815845500318&q=pakistan
For those Pakis who had said in the past that no terrorist has ever been presented in front of the camera, here is one.
Enjoy the show.
Spare some thoughts for the innocent people who was killed by this evil person.
Sridhar

re: #95 by sadna

[Earlier HisExcellency types declared that Pakistanis would fight India to the last Kashmiri]

Sadna, stop making up things. I never said Pakistan would fight India to the last Kashmiri.
Pakistan doesn`t need to fight India `coz Kashmiris are doing a damn good job already. Your soldiers are killing each other. You can`t withdraw troops from cities. You can`t withdraw troops from the villages. You already have troops fighting Naxalites. And now you will need many more soldiers to protect against attacks in Varansi, or God-knows-where.

No we don`t need to fight you. We are too busy growing our economy, privatizing our public sector corporations, improving infrastructure, offering free education to our children...

And BTW, you can screen madrassahs... but now there are enough victims of Hindu brutality in Gujrat and Bombay. You don`t need to recruit these guys from madrassahs. Living with Hindus and being exploited by Hindu political parties for more than 60 years has already educated these young Muslim men.

re: Foreign militants creating Mayheim in Kashmir: Omar
http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/12/stories/2006031205080900.htm
( Foreign militants creating mayhem in Kashmir: Omar Abdullah

B. Muralidhar Reddy

India should not shoot down proposals mooted by Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: A dinner hosted by Pakistan Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri for participants of the Pugwash-sponsored International Conference on Kashmir on Friday degenerated into a shouting match between National Conference leader Omar Abdullah and a few Pakistani journalists, much to the embarrassment of the host.

Killings in the name of religion

The bone of contention was the supposed role of foreign militants in bringing a bad name to Kashmir. A charged Mr. Abdullah remarked that foreign militants, who had nothing to do with Kashmir, were engaged in reckless killings and mayhem in the name of religion.

It prompted a journalist to ask Mr. Abdullah whether he implied that ``80,000 graves of martyrs in Kashmir consisted of Chechens, Afghans and Arabs.`` An angry Mr. Abdullah appealed to the press not to distort his comments and asserted that he never talked about militants of Kashmir origin.

``If you report what I have not said, I would need a Pakistani passport as I can not return home. I am talking about the foreign mercenaries in Kashmir. I am convinced that they need to be dealt with appropriately. As for the indigenous militants who have taken to gun to ventilate their grievances, they deserve a different treatment.``

Much to the disbelief of the audience, a journalist wanted to know from Mr. Abdullah whether he was disassociating himself being a Muslim. Before any further damage could be done, the guests rose from their seats and dispersed.

Most of the questions, some very pointed, were addressed to Mr. Abdullah despite his request not to put him and his host in an embarrassing position. At one point, when he wanted to know why all the questions were directed at him, a journalist shot back: ``Because you are the smart one.``

Indian High Commissioner Shiv Shankar Menon and Pakistan Foreign Secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan shared the high table with the Kashmir leaders and Pugwash secretary-general and Pakistan chapter chief coordinator Talat Masood.

Mr. Kasuri asked the media not to address any questions to the Indian High Commissioner or the Foreign Secretary on the plea that it was not fair to expect them to ``stick their necks out.``

Durable peace

In his opening remarks, he said: ``We feel both the countries have suffered enough and we now need peace but we want peace that is durable.``

To persistent questions on Kashmir, Mr. Abdullah said: ``Let`s look ahead and not get into the past which would embarrass many of us.``

To a query, Mr. Kasuri said while Pakistan did not command the militant groups active in Kashmir, it had ``influence`` over them. It would like to use its influence to bring down violence. ``Pakistan does have influence [over the militant groups] but we do not command [them]. Pakistan has influence because it has been advocating and highlighting the Kashmir issue.``

``When we say we have influence it does not mean that we have control, of course we do not have any control but we do have influence,`` he said adding that Pakistan would like to use its ``influence`` to bring down violence.

``Pakistan is interested in bringing down the level of violence because we feel that will definitely facilitate resolution of [the issue of] Jammu and Kashmir. For durable peace, we need to resolve the Kashmir issue.``

He was responding to CPI(M) leader Muhammad Yousuf Taragami`s remarks that Pakistan should help bring down violence in the Kashmir Valley by using its influence over the militant groups. Mr. Taragami said India and Pakistan should facilitate the return of scores of Kashmiri youth who had crossed into Pakistan.

Mr. Abdullah said the Kashmiris were disappointed with the pace of the peace process. India should not shoot down proposals coming from Pakistan for a solution of the Kashmir issue no matter how ``out of the box`` they might be.

However, he suggested that they be discussed away from the media glare. He said his party backed a solution on the lines of greater autonomy on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir. In this context, he referred to the resolution passed by the State legislature in July 2000, a copy of which he presented to President Musharraf earlier in the day.

Mr. Abdullah made his disappointment clear at the Indian Government`s decision to withhold hardliner Hurriyat Conference leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani`s passport. ``No damage would have been done if Mr. Geelani was given the passport. He would not have said anything here that he has not already said there.``

`Forget yesterday`

On the question of human rights violations in Kashmir, Mr. Abdullah insisted it could not be taken in isolation and seen merely as the result of brutality and the Indian security forces.

In reply to a question, Abdul Ghani Bhat said the first step for a solution to the Kashmir issue was to go off the beaten track. ``What we need to do is forget yesterday and ignore yesterday.``

He said President Musharraf had articulated the heart of Kashmiris when he talked of demilitarisation, self-governance and joint management of the Himalayan region. Terming these as important measures that could go a long way, he said Kashmiris were still not clear on the first step. ``A lot of spade work still needs to be done.``)
Sridhar

re: Omar Abdullah`s visit to Pakistan
Omar is hitting the Pakis where it hurts, below the belt.
And many Pakis are gasping and groaning.
I think i am beginning to like this guy.
http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/06mar12/news.htm#3

(Omar questions role of `jihadi`
militants
ISLAMABAD, Mar 11: Doing some plain speaking, National Conference, chairman, Omar Abdullah has virtually blamed Pakistan for rendering UN resolutions on Kashmir irrelevant, saying that the map of parts seized by it has undergone a change since 1947.

``Why the (UN) resolutions were not implemented? because the conditions that needed for implementation were never created right from the day one,`` he said when asked about his stand on the issue by journalists at a dinner here last night hosted by Foreign Minister Khurshid M Kasuri for leaders from Jammu and Kashmir who are participating in a conference on resolution of the Kashmir issue.

The UN resolutions, he said, were meant to be implemented in the entire State of Jammu and Kashmir as it existed in 1947. ``That State today ceases to exist and doubt very much whether we can be able to turn back the clock.``

``Those resolutions are (applicable) for both sides of Kashmir which includes Aksai Chin (part ceded by Pakistan to China) and Northern Areas (parts governed directly by Islamabad),`` he said, visibly causing discomfort to Kasuri who said Pakistan’s position on the issue was well known.

Drawing a comparison between Jammu and Kashmir and the areas of the State under Pakistan’s control, the NC leader said ``Jammu and Kashmir in India is exactly what it was in 1947. Not an inch of territory has been changed.

``Ask yourself the same question regarding the areas of Jammu and Kashmir with Pakistan. Does the map of J and K of Pakistan in 1947 resembles what it is now? If it doesn’t, then that is the answer to your question why UN resolutions cannot be implemented.``

A deeply embarrassed Kasuri, who appeared to have been taken aback by Abdullah’s reply, reiterated Pakistan’s stand, saying ``its stand is well known. There were different explanations to why the plebiscite (in Kashmir) was not held. Pakistan stand is reiterated in UN and all international fora and it is well known.``

Omar also questioned the role of ‘jihadi’ militants in resolution of the Kashmir issue and hit out at Pakistani media for playing up allegations of rights violations by security forces in Jammu and Kashmir but not taking cognizance of atrocities committed by militants.

Time has come to draw a distinction between original Kashmir militants who ``fought for liberation`` and foreign `jihadi’ militants, who ``fought on religious platform,`` he said.

He said while negotiations should be held with the Kashmiri militant groups, there was nothing to talk to foreign ‘jihadi’ militants as they have nothing to do with Kashmir issue and its resolution.

On the allegation of human right violations, Abdullah said it can not be judged in ``isolation.``

``I ask you a simple question did you ever here see reported incident of rape by security forces in Jammu and Kashmir prior to 1988-89. I doubt it. If you are condemning the violence by security forces, in the same breath you should be willing to condemn acts of human rights violations by militants,’’he said.

Abdullah said he also makes a distinction between local and foreign militants. ``I at this point of time want to distinguish between the militants who belong to Kashmir, the ethnic Kashmiris who are fighting there and the non-Kashmiris who are coming there and carrying this campaign of violence there. If you are not willing to condemn their acts of violence, please do not condemn the acts of violence of security forces,`` he said.

That does not mean, he said, he condoned violence by the security forces. ``I do not justify any violence by the security forces or militants. Tomorrow some one can justify Abu Gharib prison or Guantanamo. No body should be subjected to torture and everybody should be subjected to rule of law. If I am condemning the security forces then in the same breath I must condemn the militants.``

He said the militant groups also had different demands. ``There is difference between demands of militants from Kashmir and those who are fighting on a jihadi platform. What are demands of the militants fighting on jihadi platform.... They have no connection with the State of Jammu and Kashmir. What is their interest whether we are governed by India or by Pakistan. They are fighting on a religious platform.``

To another question, he said ``I am not referring to those who have taken the gun in the Valley. Many of those who have been killed hailed from there. I am not for referring to those. All I said that is there will be one set of negotiations with them and a different set of negotiations with others.``

Asked about the Indian Government’s refusal to provide passport to hard-line Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani to travel to Pakistan to attend the Kashmir conference, Abdullah said he was ``disappointed by the decision as Geelani would not have said anything in Pakistan which he is not saying at home.``

Geelani’s presence in Pakistan would have turned out to be an embarrassment to Islamabad also as the separatist leader of late is equally critical of Pakistan’s policies as he is of India’s, Abdullah said.)
Sridhar

Omar Abdullah recently went to Pakistan and said that there is nothing to talk to foreign jihadi groups(as opposed to Kashmiri groups) about. The Pakis who heard him got so angry at that, that one of them asked him if he was even a Muslim.

Earlier HisExcellency types declared that Pakistanis would fight India to the last Kashmiri. Now he is declaring Pakistanis will fight India to the last Indian Muslim. Well, bring it on, is what I say. After the Varanasi blasts, Indian madrassas are already demanding stricter screening of students. Indian Muslims including those who run madrassas, are Indians you see.

re: HisExcellency # 92

``Little fires are burning in Varanasi, Akshadharam and Delhi.``

Good thing about you is that you are honest. :)

This is not a war that Muslims will win.

#92 by HisExcellency on March 17, 2006 6:07pm PT

so Kashmir banega Pakistan? Umm..ok...any idea how long this will take?

re: #90 arjun_m

Hey Mr. Delusions!

Good to meet you. Lots of catching up to do.

Non-Muslims are kafir by definition. Their places of worship should be protected but only if they respect the right to life, property, political expression and religion of Muslims. Nations like India and Israel do not. So their temples and synagogues are just targets (inside India and Israel).

Remember the ``get out of the kitchen if you can`t take the heat`` advice I had given to Indians on this forum? You guys thought Hindus could impose their will on the Kashmiris and Pakistanis. You thought Pakistan and Kashmiris could do nothing but squirm at the sight of Kashmiris dying in Srinagar and Baramulla.

Well who is squirming now? Jihad has been taken right to the Indian people. Little fires are burning in Varanasi, Akshadharam and Delhi. The next chapter in Kashmir Jihad just began. Even J.K.Rowling couldn`t have written a better script. Happy reading.

HINDU MANIFESTO: Stop bullying Muslims, Sikhs, Christian and Dalit minorities in India. Don`t forcibly prevent Dalits from converting to Islam or Christianity. Give them their right to religious freedom.

HINDU MANIFESTO: Accept religious freedom and secularism in true spirit. Don`t try to impose Hindu raj under the garb of secularism. Stop using Hindu symbols such as Vande Matram if you want to even pretend to be a secular state.

HINDU MANIFESTO: Set your own house in order. Stop lecturing other countries on governance when you are facing 12 insurgencies in your own backyard.

HINDU MANIFESTO: Implement international agreements and UN resolutions to solve disputes with your neighbors. Stop overestimating your military prowess and cunning. No amount of chest-thumping and media hype can turn your Kargils into Normandys. It just takes one Mahmud Ghaznavi to bring entire Bharat to its knees... for 17 consecutive years. Only a just and equitable peace can guarantee your country`s security.

HINDU MANIFESTO: Forget about Hindu raj and Akhund Bharat. It never was. It never shall be. You were never destined to create a global empire like the Chinese, Romans, Muslims and British. You were`nt even destined to create a regional empire in South Asia. So be humble and cherish what you have. Don`t occupy other people`s lands. Get out of Kashmir. Don`t forget that it took you centuries to win your freedom. Don`t blow it away with mule headedness.

HINDU MANIFESTO: Stop spending on defense. All the fighter jets and nukes in the world will not protect you from the Muslim wrath that is building up against you because of Kashmir. You can`t stop Jihad with nukes and fighter jets. You can only stop it by accepting the just demands and rights of the Kashmiri people.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We shall not blow up each others mosques and call each other ``kafir``.


So, presumably, it`s ok to blow up the places of worship of other religions and call non-muslims kafirs?

So the pakis don`t like America...The feeling is mutual..In fact, Americans like Pakistan less than saudi arabia(yes..that saudi arabia..home of 15 hijackers)..

Link to Gallup poll

Moderately Positively Rated Countries
	Very favor- able	Mostly favor- able	Mostly un- favor- able	Very un- favor- able	No opin- ion	Total favor- able	Total un- favor- able
2006 Feb 6-9	%	%	%	%	%	%	%
Israel	21	47	18	5	9	68	23
Taiwan	12	55	14	5	14	67	19
The Philippines	11	56	17	4	12	67	21
India	10	56	16	7	11	66	23
Mexico	14	50	24	8	5	64	32

Moderately Negatively Rated Countries
	Very favor- able	Mostly favor- able	Mostly un- favor- able	Very un- favor- able	No opin- ion	Total favor- able	Total un- favor- able
2006 Feb 6-9	%	%	%	%	%	%	%
Saudi Arabia	3	28	44	18	7	31	62
Pakistan	2	28	43	16	11	30	59
Afghanistan	3	24	42	23	8	27	65
Libya	2	20	42	16	20	22	58

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We strongly denounce Israeli occupation of Palestine. If Israel wants recognition, it must first recognize a sovereign Palestinian state.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: Non-Muslim societies must uphold freedom of speech across the board. They must not reward Rushdie and Dutch cartoonists for insulting Prophet Muhammad, and jail David Irving for denying the Holocaust.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: Islam is our faith and way of life. We must weave Islamic principles with governance and choose a system of governance suitable for our culture and political conditions.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: Islamic law and Shariah are not static documents like Hindu Manusmriti and customs. Islam is the most moderate of all world religions and it provided justice, security and equality. It is eons ahead of animalistic religions like Hinduism that profess caste system, kundalis and superstitions. Muslim states must debate the Shariah and enforce it after developing a consensus.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We will not accept lectures on governance from citizens of hypocritical, terrorist states like India and Israel that oppress civilians in their own backyard. States that have refused to accept UN resolutions and every norm of international law shall not be befriended.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We shall take pride in our religious beliefs and fundamentals such as Jihad, dress code, Unity of Allah, Prophethood of Muhammad and subservience to God. If non-Muslims don`t like any of this, it is their friggin problem. They must accept the fact that we are 1.5 billion and growing. We are here to stay. And we will play by our rules.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We shall not blow up each others mosques and call each other ``kafir``. We shall not divide ourselves and make it easier for our enemies to crush us. We must always remember who our real enemies are. We must never forget their names.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We should engage in trade, education and diplomatic cooperation with neutral nations such as USA, Europe and Japan. We should also engage in greater trade with each other. But we should reduce our trade and/or dependence on our enemies such as Israel and India.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We must all build nuclear weapons and help each other do the same.

ahmadzai #73

`` 1. Pakistan continue to yield to the US pressure of ‘doing more’. The proponents of this school of thought believe that post-cold war, the USA has its own agenda of establishing secular democratic order in the world that has no place for religious (read Islamic radicalism). So if Pakistan is able to weed out all forms of religious extremism and becomes a secular country then we would be acceptable to the USA and every thing would be fine. Pakistan would be a secular democratic country doing very well economically. ``

USA wants Bin Laden and his henchmen dead or alive. I am not sure what Mushy can get in return for delivering their heads.

`` 2. The second school questions that how far Pakistan has to continue to “do more’ in order to be acceptable to the USA. What is the limit of the secularism that we have to reach? Since there is uncertainty for Pakistan in yielding to “do more” let us take a strong stance now and tell the world that, “enough is enough”. No more of taking the “do more” crap. Pakistan then should revert to its support of Talibans and Jihad all over. There is certainty for Pakistan here in the sense that we as a whole may go down fighting, but then there is certainty for many other countries in the region that they will go down with us too. Therefore, if there is uncertainty in one situation and certainty in other, let us take a few others down with us. ``

USA or India do not give a squat about secularism in Pakistan as long as they do not export their crap to Afghanistan, India or Middle East.

`` My personal take on the matter is that option 1 is definitely leading to an uncertain situation for Pakistan. It is the religion that keeps Pakistan united and has kept us united in matters like Kashmir and Afghanistan. If Pakistan opts to go the US’ way today, it will not survive tomorrow, not because we are going to be any less united, but because in every likelihood America would then start encouraging formation of independent Balochistan and Pukhtoonistan on ethnic basis. ``

Why do you want to take on USA and India at the same time ? It is doubtful you could take on either of them alone.

`` My Punjabi friends on this website over-estimate the unity of Pakistan’s various ethnic groups on matters not relating to Islam and under-estimate the designs of the neo-cons of USA in league with India. ``

You are on the money.

Many of the readers of my article have implied that I am not sufficently critical of Pakistan in this article. Indeed in many of my recent writings I have been very crticial of the Pakistani denial syndrome:

For example check out my article at the following link:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-10-2005_pg3_5

As for civil tensions, indeed pakistan must give more attention to the Baluchi issue but this is to a large extent the result of Mr. Bugti`s personal vendetta against Musharraf and to some degree the development of Gwadar, which should happily be given over to the Quetta authorities if they can handle it. Keep in mind that the Pushtun secessionist movement smouldered for many years in pakistan and the government was able to effectively quell most of it in the NWFP. The same is possible in Baluchistan.

Civil tensions are an issue across South Asia -- need I mention Assam etc. (apart from Kashmir as well).

re: ahmadzai

I disagree with the way you represented option #1. Option is really about Waziristan and general elections next year. If Pakistan can get rid of foreigners (possible Al-Qaeda members) from Waziristan and conduct free & fair elections next year, the US-Pakistan relationship will continue to thrive. The US-Pakistan relationship is about Al-Qaeda and democracy. And in the same order. It is not about secularism. Americans know religion plays an important role in Muslim societies. The Iraqis want an Islamic constitution. So do the Afghans.

Opponents of option#1 often portray it as uncertain and unsafe. Au contraire, option#2 is riddled with even more confusion. Supporting the Taliban means supporting foreign wars and freedom struggles all over the globe, instead of limiting ourselves to Kashmir alone. It also means emphasizing Wahhabism instead of mainstream Islamist fiqh. Wahhabism appeals to less than 10% of Muslims. It is an extremely divisive ideology.

Pakistan has exhausted all its flexibility on Kashmir, but on Waziristan it can still do more. And it should. A lot of these tribals took truce money from the govt, then sheltered foreign fighters and basically double-crossed the government.

With a booming economy, Pakistan can easily develop the Waziristan and other tribal areas if it only manages to cleanse these areas of heavy weapons and foreigners. Disintegration of Pakistan is out of the question. We are a nuclear power with 160 million extremely patriotic people, booming economy and a growing middle class. Moreover, there are no insurgencies in Pakistan.

ahmedzai: good to see you back on chowk. i think whether or not something is in the US interest is not relevant as far as pakistani policy making is concerned. Rather, what is relevant is whether or not it is in the interest of the next generation of pakistanis.

thus, i find most discussions on pakistani government policy to be irrelevant to what i think should be the main focus. thus: this article is concerned with advising bush on how to make the US more popular in pakistan. the indians on this board (as is normal for them) are focussed on ridiculing pakistan and muslims and no doubt will start crowing about india soon. urstruly is (as normal for him), concerned with bemoaning the action against terrorists in the tribal areas. hamidm (as is normal) is just happy to be off celebrate st. patricks, saying the hell with all this bs. :-)

you come closest to being concerned with the next generation of pakistanis - to whom we certainly owe a safe, progressive pakistan. while we may not agree on the means, i think at least you and i agree on the goal. which is the interests of the average pakistani, and particularly of the next generation.

re: #61

[Without news there are no op-ed pieces]

Without hen there are also no eggs. But eggs are not hen. Op-ed pieces are just eggs.

[it wants total control over Kabul ]

Yeah. Total control of Afghanistan, total control of India,... total control of everything but its own truncated territory.

Karzai offered amnesty to the Taliban more than a year ago. Some senior Taliban leaders even availed the offer. At that time where were Pakistanis? Pakistan doesn`t want a political solution or compromise, it wants total control over Kabul as it has been seeking since the mid 80s.

Re: 73

[No more of taking the “do more” crap]

The whore has no right to say that. She has taken the money for the whole jinnbang. How can you say ``no more`` when the night is still so young? You have to ``do more`` or return the money + early withdrawal penalty + breach of cuontract damages.

So finally arjun posted a picture showing his sympathies for the terrorists claimed to be in Pakistan and killed by our military. Earlier, Stuka had expressed his sympathies with Al Qaeda terrorists killed in Pakistan. This is at least some proof that some Indians are supporting Al Qaeda terrorists.

:-|

[Hence, it is time that US be told that it must start finding a political solution]

He he he he. So it is time. And you are going to tell. To the US. Helloooo. Your duty is to DO as YOU are TOLD. You get paid only for that.

Still how would you TELL? ``With your permishion Mr. Bush, may I humbly preshent my shtrategizing shtrategy for changing the shtrategy of shtrategization of bombing partsh of my own country. Shince it is embarashing to let you bomb Pakishtan why dont I do it for you? For only $29.99 + bums. Good shtrategy?``

#75 by Urstruly on March 17, 2006 12:39pm PT


Hence, it is time that US be told that


Dude...the US forces are bombing paki citizens on paki soil and your government isn`t doing squat about it..not even demanding an apology...

do you seriously think your government is in a position to tell the US ANYthing?

I can imagine the conversation going like this

Paki government: Stop bombing our citizens on our territory.
US government: no
Paki government: Stop bombing our citizens on our territory or else..
US government: or else what
Paki government: we`ll show you
US government official laughs so hard he dies...

Yeah, the only option for a nuclear-armed, fortress of Islam, 97% Muslim country to remain safe is to burn down the children`s schools of a neighbouring country 1/8th its size.

Re: # 73

This is a fair analysis of the situation. Pakistan can only do so much to clean up US`s mess. We cannot exterminate whole Waziristan to make them happy. Hence, it is time that US be told that it must start finding a political solution to the occupation of Afganistan. The freedom fighters and Nato must be brought to the table to start negotiating the terms of Western withdrawl.

But this is a common sense approach; therefore, US will do exactly the opposite. I think it is better for NaPak fauj`s own ass to start giving civilians military training. With the situation in Iran the whole region is on the verge of explosion. If history has a lesson, first world war started with the murder of only one man.

Other than the Pakistani elite and military - for whom the creation of Pakistan was a windfall, the rest of the pakistani people have not benefited from it at all. All economic and social indicators show that Pakistan is worse today than it was in 1947. If the begging bowl is excluded, Pakistan has nothing to show but terrorism and fundamentalism for its 60 years as a joke of a country.

Luckily for half the country 1971 provided a major escape from associating with an embarrassment called Pakistan.

Even Kashmiris want to be part of India as the recent Pugwash Conference in Pakistan has shown. It is understandable. Who wants to be called a Paki in today`s world? There is no pride in being Pakistani, and Pakistanis in western countries pretend that they are Indians.

Pakistan is headed for certain disintegration, and the day is not very far off. People here think China is the Allah for Pakistan and the ``allah-weather`` ally will be there to bail it out. Yes sure it will. Like it did in 1971.

Conspiracy theory or not, here are the two options for Pakistan:

1. Pakistan continue to yield to the US pressure of ‘doing more’. The proponents of this school of thought believe that post-cold war, the USA has its own agenda of establishing secular democratic order in the world that has no place for religious (read Islamic radicalism). So if Pakistan is able to weed out all forms of religious extremism and becomes a secular country then we would be acceptable to the USA and every thing would be fine. Pakistan would be a secular democratic country doing very well economically.

2. The second school questions that how far Pakistan has to continue to “do more’ in order to be acceptable to the USA. What is the limit of the secularism that we have to reach? Since there is uncertainty for Pakistan in yielding to “do more” let us take a strong stance now and tell the world that, “enough is enough”. No more of taking the “do more” crap. Pakistan then should revert to its support of Talibans and Jihad all over. There is certainty for Pakistan here in the sense that we as a whole may go down fighting, but then there is certainty for many other countries in the region that they will go down with us too. Therefore, if there is uncertainty in one situation and certainty in other, let us take a few others down with us.

My personal take on the matter is that option 1 is definitely leading to an uncertain situation for Pakistan. It is the religion that keeps Pakistan united and has kept us united in matters like Kashmir and Afghanistan. If Pakistan opts to go the US’ way today, it will not survive tomorrow, not because we are going to be any less united, but because in every likelihood America would then start encouraging formation of independent Balochistan and Pukhtoonistan on ethnic basis.

My Punjabi friends on this website over-estimate the unity of Pakistan’s various ethnic groups on matters not relating to Islam and under-estimate the designs of the neo-cons of USA in league with India.

maulana urstruly: how many korans do you think were desecrated when Paki forces, under pressure from the US, blew up this islamic school?



Religious students collect stationary from the rubble of the Islamic school, Friday, March 17, 2006 which was blown up by Pakistani security forces as it was allegedly used as a militant base in the Pakistani tribal region of North Waziristan in Miran Shah along Afghanistan border. Schools and shops reopened in the volatile tribal region in northwestern Pakistan on Friday as authorities relaxed a curfew imposed after clashes between pro-Taliban militants and the military killed more than 100 fighters, officials and residents said.

``Hazrat Patrick Day` mubarak to St. Hamidm as well.....

#59 by saleemhali on March 17, 2006 7:57am PT



For those who think that Pakistan is inconsequential to US interests,


No..it`s consequential...which is why US forces are dropping bombs in bajaur ..Consequential doesn`t mean Pakiland has any leverage over the US or any cards to play..which is why US forces bomb paki citizens on paki soil and don`t bother to apologize..

to all my pakistani brethren and ummites at large : hazart patrick`s day mubarak !

.......... on this day hazrat patrick (ra) drove out the snakes from kashmir, but somehow they have managed to creep, slither and slide back again ............ but not to worry ...... inshallah, one day soon, we will drive out the snakes (aka the horrible hindoos) from kashmir ..............

..... but in the meantime, we should go out there, grab a bar stool, and get that first glass of green islamic beer before asar prayers ........... takbeer!

Re: # 65

Interesting. Even if he re-incarnated himself as Khalid Ahmed, why do you automatically assume him to be Pakistani?

Saleem

Don`t let Chowk`s heat hold you back. There are some really cool folks here.

But really, given your areas of academic interest, do you know of any research on mechanisms of conflict resolution between irrational opponents?

Re: # 57

Khalid -- agree with your Mulsim Manifesto 100% -- Muslims cannot have cake and eat it too --

If Muslims want to build masjid all over the world they must allow the world to build their Churches, Mandirs, Synagogues, in Muslim lands --

want to live in democratic secular lands -- must have democracy with equal rights to minorities and a secular dispensation in governance -- in Muslim ocountries as well --

those days are over for the Muslims when they used to divide the world only in two parts -- Muslims and `non-Muslims`........with a `God created` chasm......equal to seven oceans of the world...

today Muslims are a left out community -- laga kay aag mujhay caracaN rawana hua -- the rest of the world has moved way ahead leaving the Muslims behind wallowing discontentedly and angrily in their 14 hundred year old -- sharia and sunnah -- mud pool......

Muslims have to hurry up to catch up with even the dust of the Western Caravans......

regarding Kashmir let me as an American Muslim who has no axe to grind -- tell a Pakistani Muslim --

the `problem` of Kashmir like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder....

in the Muslim context as we are discussing here -- the Indian Kashmir is as much a Muslim plus the modern multiculturalism -- as -- the Pakistan Kashmir is -- minus the pluralism........

let the two flowers bloom separately yet together in modernity and become the bridge of gardens between the two neighbors ushering in the era of peace and brotherly love.....

gujjubania aka indian007 and a half dozen other self-flattering nicks.....i see you have now been reincarnated as a pakistani, with the nick of Khalid Ahmed.

ha! ha! even bollywood has nothing on you wrt being unintentionally amusing.

saleemhali: pakistan may be consequential to US interest. but so are about a hundred other countries.

what is important is, what is consequential to the interests of the pakistani people. and the burning of the US flag at every opportunity by extremists is definitely not in the interests of the pakistani people.

How about an article on ``The Quest for Common Sense in Pakistan``??

#56 by Mantolives / #59 by saleemhali

Manto Saheb please teach Saleem Ali Saheb to come out of his delusions otherwise Pak will remain the laughing stock of the world. Saleem Saheb does not appear to realise that the geo-strategic importance of Pakistan was potent only in the realm of the bi-polar world, which was substituted to some degree by the war on terror. Pak has failed on that score in helping the US due to internal opposition and now the US has to do it all by itself. And, it will eventually win ...

So what can Pak do for US now in return for its favour? Some people may think Pak is playing US against China. But they forget that US is China`s largest market, and the only `ism` China has is money ... not any ideology or diety to follow. Does anyone think China will ever coddle Pak against US interest? Purely delusionary.

Re: 59 saleemhali

[Let us try to move towards reconciliation without trivializing each other]

- You are despised by Afghans, Iranians, Bhindians.
- You are a disgrace to ummah, islam, kashmiris, indeed the whole civilized world.
- USA is done using you. Now you are China`s used secondhand whore.
- Saudis are fed up with you - they have withdrawn free oil credit.
- Every country deports your countrymen. Even Malaysia is doing it.
- You are the ones whose economy is in doldrums.
- You are the ones who sponsor terror.
- You are the ones who blackmail with the terror gun.
- You cant even take care of your territory begging even for earthquake aid.
- You run with begging bowl to world capitals rescheduling loans
- You are not welcome in any part of the world

So, stop this BS about ``us``, ``each other``, etc. You started the conflict in Kashmir. If you want to end it, you end it. India is not scared of your sunni terror sh!t. And when India says get the fcuk out of Kashmir, it means every square millimeter of it including POK.

Allah is watching. He gave you a talibani shariat punishment in 1971 and amputated 50% of you. Become humble. Repent. So listen again: GET THE @#$& OUT OF KASHMIR before you get the $%#@ beaten out of you again and become West Bangladesh.

Re: 58

[Khalid, op-ed pieces are not news]

Without news there are no op-ed pieces.

Salim Sahib, Memoirs are fine, the old foggies had to write something. But if you want to get a glimpse of what Pakistan means to the USA today, please check out the US State Dept travel warnings for the past 15 years. Pakistan and Somalia have pretty much the same status as far as the Americans are concerned. India on the other hand…..

All this US wanting acceptance of Pakistanis is a joke at best… not a single (SINGLE) US air carrier braves landing in Pakistan. If that doesn’t tell you anything, may be you should continue reading Kissinger’s memoirs.

Please accept that Pakistan is irrelevant and even since the country was chopped into two, it has become a laughing stock of the world. It should now concentrate on killing Baluchis to avoid any further ridicule.

I am pleased to see that my article has at least sparked some debate though as is usually the case in such matters there is more heat than light being generated by the comments.

For those who think that Pakistan is inconsequential to US interests, reading the memoirs of Kissinger, Carter, Brezinsky and even Clinton should hopefully disprove that.

As for Kashmir, read Sumantra Bose`s new book on the issue ``Kashmir: Roots of Conflict Path to Peace.: (Harvard University Press 2005). As an Indian academic he has cearly laid out the issues with objectivity and sensitivity.

Let us try to move towards reconciliation without trivializing each other.

re: #27

Khalid, op-ed pieces are not news.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: Like men, women should have the right to decide how they will live, dress, travel, marry and divorce; if they do not enjoy these rights, they are clearly second-class citizens.

Why are Pakistanis scared of this? What PakDef refuses to discuss can be found here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol_baran200603010816.asp

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: All critiques of Islam should be countered not by threats and violence, but by rational counter-argument

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We strongly denounce anti-Semitism. We accept Israel`s right to exist.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We accept the legitimacy of the secular state and the secular law. Islamic law, or sharia, was developed at a time when Muslims were living in homogenous communities. In the modern world, virtually all societies are pluralistic, consisting of different faiths and of different perceptions of each faith, including Islam. In this pluralistic setting, a legal system based on a particular version of a single religion cannot be imposed on all citizens.

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: We support and cherish democracy — not because we reject the sovereignty of the Almighty over people, but because we believe that this sovereignty is manifested in the general will of people in a democratic and pluralistic society. We do not accept theocratic rule

MUSLIM MANIFESTO: we cherish religious liberty. Every human has the right to believe or not to believe in Islam or in any other religion All Muslims furthermore have the right to reject and change their religion if desired

Why are Pakistanis scared of this? What PakDef refuses to discuss can be found here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/akyol_baran200603010816.asp

Saleem H Ali,

You are doing good work there in Washington. We are in the eye of the storm but we are strong enough to ride through it...

We must also realise- as I said elsewhere- that there is no betrayal on either side. Pakistan milked the American cow all through out the cold war. In 1991 however it had no post-war strategy and India has taken the advantage. Now the Americans have a legitimate interest in India and it will follow it... atleast for the next 50 years... We Pakistanis must evolve a post-war on terror strategy and have faith in ourselves...

-YLH

Saleem Ali

The perpetual fire under hindu tails indicates that Pakistan`s Kashmir policy is correct and effective. The common sense suggests that we shouldn`t change anything that is effective and working to something that never works like resolving the Kashmir issue through democratic and peaceful means like negotiations, plebicite etc.; since, hindu takes any such jesture as a sign of weakness and refuses even further to sit on table.

And now that Americans are funding the terrorist insurgency in Balochistan to use it as a leverage against Pakistan to control Taliban, it makes more sense for Pakistan to keep Indian Oppressed Kashmir (IOK) as insecure as possible. This is to give strategic depth to insurgency in Afghanistan into Kashmir and Central Asia. Americans have very much in their power to make things better by abiding by the international laws and restoring the writ of internation institutions but instead they have chosen to be international chutyias, so what options others have? This is a dog eat dog world they have created.

re:#36 by faisaluno
Indian Peshab is good. Ask Morarjibhai!
I also recommend to Pakis samples of indian sh!t from the website www.iamapakiandiwantindianshit.com.
I have been sending some sample to Beharam and it seems to be improving his I.Q though he needs to take the stuff regularly.
I can also send u some sample if u want.
Sridhar

re:#33 by HP
Ha, ha.
That was funny.
No doubt designed by an Amerian jackass disgruntled by this outsourcing thing. The guy probably lost his job.
You will see more of it in future. First it was the Irish, then the Italians, then the Japs. Now perhaps the Indians!
I have had some conversations with Indians from India when my queries were outsourced from US to that country. Everytime i spoke with somebody who had an impeccable English but the Indian accent was unmistakable. One guy from Chennai tried to pass off as Smith but i caught him in the act!
That cartoon u posted depicted an Arab looking Indian with a funny accent. Not true. Indians in the outsourcing business undergo an ``accent neutralisation course`` where they are taught different accents!
Welcome to golbalisation.
Indians are lapping it up. Pakis are losing out, as shown by your and that guy faisaluno`s posts.
Sridhar

re:#31 by faisaluno
It is a free press`s job to highlight problems. This is what democracy is all about.
So, u are wasting your time.
I bet u have not read much about the
medical tourism in India that is now fast becoming a big industry.
(For example, in April Madras Medical Mission, a Chennai-based hospital, successfully conducted a complex heart operation on an 87-year-old American patient at a reported cost of $8,000 (€7,000, £4,850) including the cost of his airfare and a month`s stay in hospital. The patient claimed that a less complex operation in America had earlier cost him $40,000.)

This link will tell u more about the medical tourism and how India is a leader in the field.
Or
As this This washington post article says
( India offers a growing number of private ``centers of excellence`` where the quality of care is as good or better than that of big-city hospitals in the United States or Europe, asserted Naresh Trehan, a self-assured cardiovascular surgeon who runs Escorts and performed the operation on Staab.

Trehan said, for example, that the death rate for coronary bypass patients at Escorts is 0.8 percent. By contrast, the 1999 death rate for the same procedure at New York-Presbyterian Hospital, where former president Bill Clinton recently underwent bypass surgery, was 2.35 percent, according to a 2002 study by the New York State Health Department.

Escorts is one of only a handful of treatment facilities worldwide that specialize in robotic surgery, which is less invasive than conventional surgery because it relies on tiny, remote-controlled instruments that are inserted through a small incision.)
So, the good and the bad exist in India. There is also excellence.
Show me one excellence in medical field from Pukistan.
The stench from Pukistan is so strong that i can smell it here in US. My advice to people like u is to concentrate on how u can be of some service to your own country and make it a better place than trying to find fault with others. The world, at the moment, is not impressed by the label ``Paki`` and thinks it is a synonymn for ``terrorism``.
Sridhar

musalman musalman bhai bhai:

http://hindustantimes.com/news/181_1649142,0035.htm

...The ISI, in league with renegade fundamentalists, has already established base in Bangladesh.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=mishra%2Fmishra115.txt&writer=mishra

... It is well known fact that ISI plan of encirclement of India was complete before the end of the last century with a strong operational bases in Bangladesh...

re:#10 by ranjit
Your arguments about Kashmir are counter-intuitive.
You are arguing that Pakis should reassess their policy (as if they have a choice; their nation is run by a dictator) on Kashmir because the policy has harmed them economically and accession of Kashmir to Pak will hurt interests of IMs.
Since when have Paki jehadis been worried about economic and human interests? Their agenda is very different. They view Kashmir as the first goalpost among many goalposts (Chechenya, Palestine etc being others) the worldover where Islamic flag must fly. It has nothing to do with the interests of Kashmiris.
Omar Abdullah (on a visit to Pugwash conference in Pak) was right when he questioned the sincerity of Pakis in finding a solution to kashmir problem. He asked them if they have not already changed demography of Pak controlled kashmir and ceded territory to China. He also asked Paki elite to condemn not just the human rights violations by security forces but also by the miltants. Much to the discomfiture of many ruling elite from Pak at the conference, Indian Kashmiri leader Omar Abdullah said that Kashmiris have genuine grievances but their fight has been complicated by presence of non-kashmiri militants from pakistan.
Sridhar

RE: 48 Faisaluno
[we dont have to do anything to punish indian. god has punished them enuff ]

Read my lips: The Pakistani delusion will never go away. The illogical mass belief is that Pakistan is destined for great things simply because its population is muslim, allah has a plan for it, and hence allah will ensure its greatness.

If every bit of daily reality indicates the complete opposite of the above belief, to them it only means that Pakistanis are not muslim enough so they must grow longer beards, cover themselves in blacker burqas, and blow up more shias and kafirs in suicide attacks, ad infinitum, till Pakis become more muslim than arabs, and more muslim than the founders themselves. Even Pakistan`s China policy is koran based as it says: ``Look even to China... blah blah``

This bullshit is indoctrinated at home from birth, gets extended into academic curriculum and continues everyday through mullah sermons and results in daily delusional op-eds like this one by Saleem Ali. And all the while, Allah is graciously extending blessings and rewards to kafirs throughout the world. And Indians are getting to have the last laugh. So sit back and enjoy the free entertainment. For the Pakistani delusion will never go away.

Allah inflicted a sharia punishment in 1971 and amputated half, but Pakistanis haven`t nor will ever heed Allah`s signs.

we dont have to do anything to punish indian. god has punished them enuff for being pigs. unfortunately kids are bearing the brunt:

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jan302006/metromon14322006129.asp

...India is a great challenge and is tougher than West Africa to handle with its huge population. Two thirds of your population has no access to sanitation. Because of that children below the age of five are at a higher risk of dying due to the a combination of poor sanitation and hygiene,and poorer quality of water, malnutrition and low immunization coverage.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=75024

...Child labour is a horrific reality that ricochets across many Indian towns...
Shockingly, 10 crore kids are engaged in illegal employment in India, a world record of sorts.

Indian strategy of defeating enemies has been ``chanakyaniti``- very simple and inexpensive. Let others do it for them, and watch the entertaining drama with chai pakora.

- How did Indians end Mughal rule? They let the British do that.
- How did Indians split Pakistan? They let East Bangladeshis whip the sh!t out of West Bangladeshis.
- How did Indians secure Kashmir LOC? They let Afghanis settle their score on the other border.
- How did Indians wreck Paki economy without setting foot in it? They called the Paki nuclear bluff and let Chinese explode their bums in Pakistan. The resulting sanctions wrecked Pakistan which even had to shut down its stockmarkets!!

However, Americans must also consider the importance of tangible progress towards resolution of disputes, coupled with gestures of goodwill, as the primrose way to popularity.

Very weak article. Nothing thoughtful here. Now why `must` Americans bother to strive towards `primrose way to popularity` in Pakistan? Is Pakistan so important for them? As it looks now they are more prepared to become even more unpopular and finish the job with Taliban etc. themselves in Waziristan that Pak failed to do.

With views like these, Pakistanis only strengthen the allegation of being `delusional` levied by so many interactors here.

#43 by faisaluno

[this indian strategy of defeating your enemies by pissing in your own river, that does explain indian history over the last 1000 years.]

Nope, that is a purely Paki strategy. You only have to look at what`s happening in Waziristan.

[btw gunga does not flow into pak in it still reeks of piss despite being a holy river. this in essence tells us all we need to know about your qaum.]

Looks like you liked the taste of Ganga jal. We can ask the Indian govt. to ship some westwards through the proposed Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline.

Let`s face it, the Pakistanis have nobody keeping them down and humiliating them and rubbing their noses into the dust - except Pakistanis themselves. The Pakistanis have not had a history of living in peace with their neighbors - because they have chosen to live that way. (I mean the decisionmakers of course.)

This ancient meditation for third-party mediation and its repeating ``aalaap`` now-a-days only gets uppreciated by certain otherwise ``tone deaf`` ears - who have no other tune.

[It is naive for pundits in Washington to assume that people in Pakistan will merely respond to such measures alone.]

It is naive for pundits in Vermont to assume that people in Washington are trying to obtain response from ``people`` in Pakistan at the time - perhaps only from the ones who hold the ``chabuks`` at the moment.

[Public diplomacy may melt some icy precepts in Pakistan but American ideals will still flounder in the murky waters of ....]

Religious nut-brews permanently stirred and cooked by the khaki cooks.

this indian strategy of defeating your enemies by pissing in your own river, that does explain indian history over the last 1000 years. btw gunga does not flow into pak in it still reeks of piss despite being a holy river. this in essence tells us all we need to know about your qaum.

Yes yes. Kafir bhindians eat dirty pigs, bathe in cow urine and drink their own piss. And next morning they dump it all in the Paki rivers and the Arabian sea. Pakis like it because they keep asking for more under Indus Water Treaty.

#32 by faisaluno

[otoh, what would you call an indian who thinks like i do?]

An a$$.

#32 by faisaluno

[otoh, what would you call an indian who thinks like i do?]

An a$$.

``President Musharraf claims that empowerment of the population beyond feudalism is essential before full democratization. Yet it is not clear how people are supposed to feel empowered when every government decision is draped in military and security expediency. The only way out of this cold war trap is for America and Europe to facilitate a lasting solution to regional South Asian conflicts. ``

Again...........just as the dictator talks about pre-conditions to democracy....the same dicator also talks about resolution of the Kashmir issue as the ``pre-condition`` for ``lasting peace``............this is another ``official position`` which the author is reiterating ...except that it is not put in terms of ``core issue`` or ``root cause`` ...............I think US is going to tighten the screws around Pakistanis who have always provided support to the terrorists.................

India : Hindu

Pakistan : Muslim

America : Christian


Have I missed out anything?

Na jao sainyan chuda key baiyan,
kasam tumari main rau padungi....



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