Rifts, Fissures, Cracks, Gaping Holes

Revathy,

India`s unique accomplishment in that part of the world is that in spite of its mind boggling diversity along various dimensions like ethnicity, caste, religion, economic status etc, it has managed to build a system that caters to the needs of large numbers of the ordinary people. That too without violence. When we look into our neighborhood and see countries like Pakistan, Myanmar, countries in the middle east, we can all pray to God and thank him for his kindness and bounty to India.

Sore loser.

Revathy,

You are the sort of people who would cry `sexual abuse` even if a man pulls you aside from the railway track when an oncoming train is about to hit you. Stop seeing shadows where there are none. Indian leaders are not about to sell off India`s interests anytime soon nor will the Indian public allow them to do so.

how come two of u are ALWAYS the first ones to post comments on articles appearing on FP??

The usual leftist whining and entitlement talk.

Not a single practical suggestion on improving state schools; not a single idea on how to create 2X more excellent schools. Just the the same old ``oh, the goverment must give more somehow`` or ``these bad middle-class urban people, keeping all the good schools to themselves``. And this passes for analysis and thought???

Let me tell you a story. Over the last 2 years I have attempted to contact over 20 ``progressive`` dalit/leftists organizations regarding education. I have offered to raise $10K/per year in perpetuity for education/tuition/assistance. NOT A SINGLE ORGANIZATION OR INDIVIDUAL HAS EVEN BOTHERED TO REPLY TO ME !!! I suppose they are such great ``intellectuals`` they dont need to bother with such routine stuff.

So who do I fund instead: ``fascist`` hindus !! The same people communist revathy is pouring scorn on. Ekal Vidyalaya, Ramakrishna Mission, CRY etc. These people and the missionaries are the only ones interested in creating schools, changing things etc. NOT A SINGLE jholawala LEFT-WING LOSER HAS ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE OTHER THAN LONG ANGREZI WORDS! Plus burning a few buses and killing a few poor policemen.

[....The hosannas that are being sung and India’s sudden high visibility make it most suspect; if it weren’t so frightening, it would be hilarious. The scenario has all the elements of a steel trap...]

The hosannas being sung on India are hilarious alright - but there nothing to be ``frightened`` about.... Let the Indians enjoy their day in the sun, as long as it lasts.... after decades of darkness imposed by you leftist mofos on wrethced multitudes - they have finally got a break....a breath of fresh air..... a little sun-shine on their entire blighted existence....Let them enjoy the hosannas a bit - at least some people have worked hard for it....

So can you leftist f***ers take a break from your unending bullsh!t?.... can you just shut up for a second and let people enjoy their achievements a bit - those who have worked hard to get where they have got?......

And rest your fevered mind, don`t be frightened, no need to cower in the corner....there is no ``steel trap``, nobody is trying to take over your wretched country, there is nothing to take over... Like you yourself pointed out - india is country of endemic poverty,corruption, deprivation - so why would anybody conspire to take you over? what benefit would your unwashed masses be of any use to anybody?.....

you leftists have already put 60 years down the drain, wasted entire generations, you have made the country poor, deprived and completel f***ed up.... so take a hike.... let people who are working hard to make a difference do their jobs - give them a chance....

Don`t be afraid, everything would be OK....

Hey Revathy,

I am guessing we both come from different angles to this problem. But I agree with your central theme of doing more for `Backward` castes. Inspite of the uneven progress we have achieved so far, we have many more miles to go on this issue.

Casteism is the scourge of Hindu society. In the struggle to purge it, we have to keep a close watch and strive to remove caster barriers from all facets of our life.

Specifically about reservations, I dont like the quota system but the inclusion of Dalits in Private institution and even Private sector companies should be actively encouraged by the government either in form of tax credits or preferential allotment of contracts etc.

Some of the people who criticize you here cannot understand that, the merit based admissions which they advocate is not perfect and is determined a lot by family wealth, the education of elders. We need to level the playing field for backward castes and reservations are one of the best way. Of course, in the same vien, I also support removal of Creamy layers in each generation

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Hi Revathy,
As usual, a readable article - in some time.
I agree with you that caste is a curse on India.
Alongwith it, we must also remember the rot that is religion.

India appears shining to America now as they see in it some sort of future leverage against the godless Chinese. No doubt, foreign policy is sometimes blind in its pursuits. Makes you wonder if it is just religiously blinded. Note how the western media completely blacked out Gujarat 2002.

We should make full use of the present good fortune asking for the best possible economic deals.

Parthaab the shameless communist liar writes:

[quote]
Note how the western media completely blacked out Gujarat 2002.
[quote]

Here are just a *FEW* of the articles in western media. Gujarat was on the front-pages of the NYTimes for a full week. There were probably more than a 100 major articles on this in the NYTimes and Washington Post. But marxists dont need to deal with reality, right???

SHAME ! SHAME ! SHAME ON LIARS AND CHEATS WHO PRETEND TO BE PROGRESSIVE!!

Grisly Discovery Reopens Old Wounds in Village in India
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/20/international/asia/20gujarat.html


World Briefing | Asia: India: Life Sentences For 9 Hindus In Killings Of Muslims
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE0D91F3EF936A15751C0A9609C8B63

Religious Riots Loom Over Indian Politics
... that pulled into Godhra station at 7:43 ... the train at Godhra station, which is in ...View free preview
July 27, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 3035 words

New Violence Adds to Strain On Alliance Ruling India
... the town of Godhra, killing 58 people. ...View free preview
April 14, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 813 words


Angry and Ashamed, Indian Prime Minister Tours Riot-Torn State
... the city of Godhra, where he inspected the ... . ``Godhra`s incident was shameful, ...View free preview
April 5, 2002 - By BARRY BEARAK (NYT) - International - News - 632 words

Riots Shake Friendships And Faiths In India
... a station in Godhra, 95 miles north of ...View free preview
March 24, 2002 - By SOMINI SENGUPTA (NYT) - International - News - 840 words

India Seeks to Head Off Any New Violence
... when Muslims in Godhra set fire to a trainload ...View free preview
March 12, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 866 words

The World; Gandhi`s Dream and India`s Latest Nightmare
... small city of Godhra, Muslims set fire to ... reaction to the Godhra massacre. In an interview ...View free preview
March 10, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - Week in Review - News - 1233 words

Instability in India
... the town of Godhra, also echo the violence ...View free preview
March 7, 2002 - (NYT) - Editorials and Op-Ed - Editorial - 496 words

After Deadly Firestorm, India Officials Ask Why
... Muslim mayor of Godhra and two Muslim city council ... what happened in Godhra remain, the context for ... the population, Godhra is almost evenly divided between ...View free preview
March 6, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 1189 words

Killings in India Spread as Toll Rises Near 400
... children, from Godhra to Ahmedabad and other places ...View free preview
March 3, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 516 words

Hindu Rioters Kill 60 Muslims in India
... station, in Godhra, especially given the state ... Muslim neighborhood in Godhra, often shouting slogans about ... It was in Godhra that Muslims attacked one of ...View free preview
March 1, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 1312 words
NEWS SUMMARY
... A mob in Godhra set fire to a train ...View free preview

February 28, 2002 - (NYT) - New York and Region - Summary - 1125 words
Fire Started on Train Carrying Hindu Activists Kills 58
... train paused in Godhra, which is 40 percent ... `` In Godhra, all schools and businesses ... the attack in Godhra. But they reserved their ...View free preview
February 28, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 1141 words

---

I wonder how much reporting on Gujarat violence took place in the Socialist heavens of China, Vietnam and Cuba?

Actually this is a fairly well balanced article. I didn`t find anything stridently left wing about it.

I`m a little confused by the third from last paragraph? The author says the caste system is present everywhere in different forms (mostly as a matter of economics or xenophobia). So we assume this has been endemically common throughout human existence. What is the argument for then? Is it that in India this seperation has been endorsed by religion?

I`m going to add the last paragraph of one of my favourite books ,`` Wind Sand and Stars`` by St Exupery not as an answer to the last paragraph but more as a topic of debate. For those who have not read the book St.Exupery is looking at a child of two Polish labourers as they flee Spain during the civil war. It is a little racist in it`s reference to Orientals but that is the way most of the Europeans thought then, and maybe that itself should make us look at ourselves anew.
Here goes ......
``
I bent over the smooth brow, over those mildly pouting lips, and I said to myself: This is a musician`s face. This is the child Mozart. This is a life full of beautiful promise. Little princes in legends are not different from this. Protected, sheltered, cultivated, what could not this child become?



When by mutation a new rose is born in a garden, all the gardeners rejoice. They isolate the rose, tend it, foster it. But there is no gardener for men. This little Mozart will be shaped like the rest by the common stamping machine. This little Mozart will love shoddy music in the stench of night dives. This little Mozart is condemned



I went back to my sleeping car. I said to myself: Their fate causes these people no suffering. It is not an impulse to charity that has upset me like this. I am not weeping over an eternally open wound. Those who carry the wound do not feel it. It is the human race and not the individual that is wounded here, is outraged here. I do not believe in pity. What torments me tonight is the gardener`s point of view. What torments me is not this poverty to which after all a man can accustom himself as easily as to sloth. Generations of Orientals live in filth and love it. What torments me is not the humps nor hollows nor the ugliness. It is the sight, a little bit in all these men, of Mozart murdered.
``

““Why do state schools function so badly?” “Why are teachers not better trained and why do they not teach?” “Yes, yes, we are knowing that only people with the right accents can get into English medium schools.” “How will Dalit children cope with problems in the curriculum, the barriers in the social system within the schools, lack of help at home?”

I am kind of surprised that why the author is being called a sore loser when all he had brought out some issues in the education system. What makes him a sore loser? Is it being sore loser to discus problem facing India?

The questions that the author is discussing can be legitimately asked in Pakistan too. There are certainly two sets of education systems in both countries. Poor invariably end up in the state run schools that “function badly” and teachers are not trained.

What ails India, is not the problems in India but the mindset of some Indians that refuses to accept the problems. Why Indians refuse to believe that there is an India out there that has extreme poverty and problems that are equal to if not more than any other third world country.

Why they refuse to accept that:
A full 65% of Indian population still lives in extreme poverty in rural India
46% of Indian do not have electricity and still use kerosene to light up evenings.
70% homes are in dilapidated conditions
India highways cover only about two percent of the country.

I mean one can go on and on the list is so long that it will take books to document that.

Can one Indian on this site claim that all Indian kids have access to education what to talk about the equal education?

There are problems in the system, education system included. Instead of discussing that honestly Indians would rather call the person who brings out the problem sore loser. What kind of head in the sand approach is that?

Far worse than that is the fact that some Indians really are living in a world that does not exist -- a fantasy world so plainly free of facts and reality that it is truly disturbing for them if someone even points out that there are problems in the education system or anywhere else in India.

India is a poor country. It is so poor that most of the world equates it with Hungry kids and naked fakirs roaming the streets.

Why some Indians hate facts so much?

If posters don’t agree with the author, then they should present counter facts. It is not that they don’t know how to cut and paste.

Who is the sore loser here, the one discussing the problem or the ones that are running away from the facts?

#10 swarrier

I agree it is not stridently left-wing. But it is still based on ``victim ideology`` of the left - here are some victims, lets hate somebody.

We need a ``change ideology`` of positivism. This is the biggest thing missing from many left-oriented people. HOW CAN WE CHANGE THINGS ! Not just complaining about somebody or giving lectures about how bad caste system is. Or how many indians are narrow-minded and backward looking. You think indians have a monopoly on narrow-mindedness???

Here is a story about change. Naturally, the chief protaganist is a fascist hindu! Amazing that progressive left-wing people never do these things. Why should they? They are superior human beings and only need lecture us on our shortcomings.

---

http://www.indianembassy.org/ind_us/news_media/cab_ny_jan_23_00.htm

In New York, just a cabby, in India, a school`s hero

Emigrant Lifts Horizons of village Girls

New York Times - January 23, 2000

Doobher Kishanpur, India Jan 17- The New York City cabby, a big-bellied, fast-talking philosopher-driver with a hide as tough as a water buffalo, stood in the doorway of a school here today, sweetly bidding farewell to 180 little girls in blue-and-white gingham who poured in to a dusty brick lane at the end of the school day.

Namaste, Om Dutta Sharma said to them, pressing his hands together in the prayerful Hindi greeting (pronounced ``nah-MAH-stay) as they chorused back their own tinkling goodbyes.

For 20 years, Mr. Sharma has barreled through the streets of Manhattan in a yellow taxi, saying his crumpled tips, never taking his wife out to eat, scrimping on new clothes for his sons, to make this act of goodness possible. He has given his village a school for girls and named it for his illiterate mother, Ram Kali.

In New York, Mr. Sharma and his wife are just struggling immigrants. But here in his village - a place without even a single telephone - their incomes, modest by American standards, make them philanthropists-``I am worthless in New York``, said Mr. Sharma, whose father grew sugar cane on a 10 acre plot nearby. ``Here, I am everything``.

The two-story brick house where Mr. Sharma, 65, was raised is now filled with first to fifth graders laboriously scratching out their lessons in chalk. One recent afternoon, rows of girls in bright red sweaters sat on the roof in the warm winter sun poring over their sums while a man on the next roof shaped fuel patties from dung.

The Sharmas can afford to educate and care for these farmers daughters because money buys more here than in New York.

Mr. Sharma and his wife, Krishna, nurse at Bellevue Hospital Center, contribute the $2,500 a year it costs to run the bare-bones school. The girls sit on the floor and write on small chalkboards. Each of the five teachers earns just $35 to $55 a month.

To hire a local doctor to give the girls regular checkups, Mr. Sharma spent $500 more from the earnings of a mango orchard he planted years ago when he and his brother inherited the family plot.

Mr. Sharma is now expanding the school so that 500 girls can attend through high school. To pay for his ambitious plan, he says he and his brother have submitted affidavits promising to donate the family`s 10 acres of land to a charitable trust they have set up in India, Mr. Sharma will also give half the money from the sale of his taxi medallion, which he estimates is worth $ 220,000. He bought it in 1981 for $ 75,000, and said he planned to sell it when he retired in three or four years.

If he succeeds, more girls in the village will have a chance of schooling beyond the primary grades, a step forward in traditional north Indian villages like this one, where a girl`s odds of learning to read and write are much lower than a boy`s .

The mother of a 9 year-old explained that her daughter would not be permitted to go to coeducational public school after she finishes the fifth grade at Mr. Sharma`s school. Many villagers want their girls to go to girls-only school, even though the public schools are open to both boys and girls.

``We villagers don`t like that, ``said the mother, Sumitra, her hands determinedly planted on her hips as her daughter, Nancy, stood meekly beside her, eyes downcast. `` After fifth, if will be necessary to hold her back, But if there is a girls` school, she can go up to 10th.``

The Sharmas, who live in Woodside, Queens, are educating their own sons too these days. They have taken out $50,000 in loans to pay for Pramanik and Prasheel`s college years at St. John`s University in Queens, Mrs. Sharma said.

Even so, after Mr. Sharma`s mother died in 1996,hefelt that the time was right to take on the cost of educating some little girls he did not know in a village where he no longer lived. The doors of the Ram Kali School for Girls opened in the summer of 1997.

Re: # 8 parthaab

Here we go - one more commie to the mix..... yep - these guys will lift India right out of poverty and deprivation... even though they couldn`t do squat in 60 years they ruled....

Re #11
HP : The writer is a woman. Revathy is a woman`s name. I don`t think anybody over here can be blind to India`s warts. It`s as Mohar11 mentioned , all of us want a little place in the sun. Most of us are tired of the old image of India (snake charmers, begging children, lepers....). None of this has gone away completely and probably never will at least not in our lifetimes. However there are some good things too.

Re #12
pmishra2 :
I`m not sure that this article is exactly based on ``victim ideology``. It seemed more compassionate to me. I don`t know anything about Ms.Gopal but I`d hate to label her as a leftist just based on this article. It seemed to me to be an article that anybody could write, left, right , centrist. After all why should we not discuss what is wrong with our society when we discuss what is good about it.
I know quite a few people, fascist Hindus, leftists , whatever you wish to call them who are doing a lot of good work amongst the poor. In fact some weeks ago the English newspaper the Independent carried a story of a husband and wife team that helped rag pickers stitch bags from recovered plastic and these were being sold in boutiques all over Europe.
I think people like Mr.Sharma in your story are wonderful . They don`t run away from facts. Perhaps Ms.Gopal doesn`t either. We don`t know what she does.

All I want is a substantial reduction [if not full elimination] of commie mentality among indians.... the mentality which has made India poor and pathetic..... From now on - there has to be ``can do`` culture.... no more whining, no more ideological BS and no more xenophobia like the author has displayed [``The sudden spate of visits to India by important and self-important men and women from all corners of the earth signifies... a steel trap]....

Rest all is fine.... caste problems have been tackled to a large extennt and more has to be done..... there is large scale disparity in various segments of society - the gap has to be bridged...

But it cannot be done unless we stop whining and start working...

``it cannot be done unless we stop whining and start working...``

The biggest whiner on the site is talking about other whiners..

It is a part of the Indian psyche....

Far worse than that is the fact that some Indians really are living in a world that does not exist -- a fantasy world so plainly free of facts and reality that it is truly disturbing for them if someone even points out that there are problems in the education system or anywhere else in India.