Rifts, Fissures, Cracks, Gaping Holes

Ref avkrishna #78

[What I meant by this is that the more educated the parents are, the more educated the children are likely to be. Not due to genetics, but due to a different nurturing environment where education is stressed, the awareness of different possibilities, financial means to secure these etc.

Do you disagree?]

Yes, I do.

I know of a TamBrahm family which lived in the US for a long time. The father was an executive with a large American company. The mother, though a homemaker, was active in Indian cultural affairs. Lived in the best suburb with excellent schools. Both were educated with college degrees and pedigrees up the wazoo.

Their kids dropped out of high school. One of them started working as a check-out clerk in a grocery store.

In the case of another family, the kid became a dope peddler and is spending life in prison.

What have you got to say about these? What disadvantages did these kids face for them to become what they are?

Re: # 80

What you have given me an anecdotal evidence of two families you knew. Anecdotes does not make a trend esp. when you have other, more poweful evidence in hand.

I think if we consider the following statistics, we will get a better idea:

1) % of admissions in any premier institutions (say IITs) by their family background in terms of education

2) % of Reserved seats for Backward castes taken by `Creamy Layer` children

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Ref avkrishna #81

[What you have given me an anecdotal evidence of two families you knew. Anecdotes does not make a trend esp. when you have other, more poweful evidence in hand.]

The only more powerful evidence we have is that the BC/MBC/OBC/SC/ST cannot and will not compete on an equal footing.

Take a look at what some farmers did in Pune.

Compare that to Manmohan Singh`s talk that he would make Bombay into another Shanghai and the Commies` determination to keep India down.

As far as I am concerned, the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC masanamuthus can cry buckets that with their bogus degrees in architecture and tonn planning, they have not come up with one township like Magarpatta.

http://specials.rediff.com/money/2006/mar/22sld1.htm

Re: # 82

I did not get you here. Can you elaborate in detail about what you mean by your statement?

Are you saying that Reservations are not needed at all??

Thanks,

harimau:

LOL at your responses.. Sorry, I takeback my LOL..
Take my hand-kerchief and wipe off the tears..

Here is an expose of the commies - in the recent ``office of profit`` case - in which MPs holding such offices have been kiecked or resigned - including Sonia Gandhi.... Commies from bengal top the list...

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/mar/23profit4.htm?q=tp&file=.htm

In all about 62 MPs are said to be in various posts, most of them from the Left in West Bengal, which Trinamul Congress leader Mamta Banerjee has sought to exploit politically ahead of the assembly polls in the state.

#85 please show some respect to the old man. Thank you.

Ref avkrishna #84

[I did not get you here. Can you elaborate in detail about what you mean by your statement?]

Has one useful theory, invention or medical procedure come from these brain-dead idiots? What have they done with their so-called ``education`` which is nothing but a degree for prancing around on a college campus and ogling women?

The ONLY lower-caste that does a good job of its profession today is the caste of barbers. If the barber doesn`t do a good job, the customer doesn`t leave until he is satisfied with his haircut. Look at the pathetic buildings that these so-called civil engineers build in India. The fcukers have to get the Japanese to build a new bridge across the Jamuna in Delhi. Even the Metro in Delhi has to be built with Japanese help and Korean trains. Korea was devastated -- reduced to a rubble -- during the Korean War and they are ahead of India in every technology. Why? Because they do not have reservations for the Brain-Dead in Korea, that is why.

With their degrees in automobile engineering, are they capable of building one frikking car? No. We have the Koreans building cars in India. It proves that the lower castes are good only for manual labor and are incapable of using what passes for their brain.

Perhaps what we have been conducting in India is an experiment in Eugenics. For thousands of years, we have been breeding brains with brains and we end up with two TamBrahms with Nobel Prizes. We also have been breeding cretins because we don`t kill people with mental deficiencies. It is just that the cretins have been forced to marry other cretins. Thus we have Soysauce and Masanamuthu representing the lowest and highest intelligence possible among congenital idiots. For someone like you with your liberal leanings, this might be hard to digest.

Actually, compare dogs. We now have about 200 breeds of dogs world-wide, all of which are descended from just one kind of dog. It is the repeated cross-breeding and isolation of certain characteristics that gives us the bloodhound that has a great sense of smell, a Labrador Retriever that is good for assisting humans with disabilities or an Afghan hound that is built for speed. If you can agree that it is scientifically possible to breed specific characteristics into dogs, why should it surprise you to find that it is possible to breed specific characteristics into human beings?

[Are you saying that Reservations are not needed at all??]

Yes. Let them take a competitive entrance examination if you think intelligence is due to nature, not nurture. If you think intelligence is due to nurture not nature, 55+ years of mollycoddling these idiots have proved that thesis wrong. You and the Commies would want 3,000 years of reservations and that would set India behind Saudi Arabia.

dost-mittar #71

`` The root of the problem is the lack of attention paid to primary schooling. This is where resources have to be diverted. And it is not just a question of monetary resources; as soyasauce pointed out, there is a lot of corruption in government run schools. The lure of private tutoring has had a very serious effect on the quality of teaching in regular schools. Perhaps, a radical solution such as providing vouchers to poor parents which they can use in any school of their choice should be considered. ``

Vouchers can help.

Parental support, overall social climate and economic mobility play a bigger role than reservations.

Harimau
William Shockley had the same ideas that you propound. But keeping people suppressed for a 1000 years doesn`t help their cause either does it?
You can`t stand discrimination for 55 years, but is it okay to discriminate against people for over a millenium and then be vituperative about them?
I`ve known idiot Brahmins , there is no reason why they should profit over somebody better qualified.
I don`t like reservations either. But a little bit may be necessary, if but to open the door for the rest.

harimau, in the sarkari organizations, even with reservations upper-caster are at least 50%. so the ``failure`` blame has to go there too.

harimau #88

`` Has one useful theory, invention or medical procedure come from these brain-dead idiots? What have they done with their so-called ``education`` which is nothing but a degree for prancing around on a college campus and ogling women? ``

Large number of Indian engineers are non-Brahmin. The percentage of OBC/SC/ST engineers is low. What else do you expect ? They moved into knowledge profession one generation ago.

`` The ONLY lower-caste that does a good job of its profession today is the caste of barbers. If the barber doesn`t do a good job, the customer doesn`t leave until he is satisfied with his haircut. Look at the pathetic buildings that these so-called civil engineers build in India. The fcukers have to get the Japanese to build a new bridge across the Jamuna in Delhi. Even the Metro in Delhi has to be built with Japanese help and Korean trains. Korea was devastated -- reduced to a rubble -- during the Korean War and they are ahead of India in every technology. Why? Because they do not have reservations for the Brain-Dead in Korea, that is why. ``

Most of the food you eat is grown and harvested entirely by non-Brahmins. They do a decent job growing food.

`` With their degrees in automobile engineering, are they capable of building one frikking car? No. We have the Koreans building cars in India. It proves that the lower castes are good only for manual labor and are incapable of using what passes for their brain. ``

There are plenty of good Brahmin engineers. Have they built a car ? If brahmin engineers are so good why sign a deal with USA to get nuclear technology ? There has been 20% reservation in Central government jobs until 1990. It was not like all of those merit based engineers achieved much.

`` Perhaps what we have been conducting in India is an experiment in Eugenics. For thousands of years, we have been breeding brains with brains and we end up with two TamBrahms with Nobel Prizes. We also have been breeding cretins because we don`t kill people with mental deficiencies. It is just that the cretins have been forced to marry other cretins. Thus we have Soysauce and Masanamuthu representing the lowest and highest intelligence possible among congenital idiots. For someone like you with your liberal leanings, this might be hard to digest. ``

2 Nobel Prizes is measily compared to 100+ by Jews. To say that genetics is the sole determinant of intelligence and achievement in the offspring is quite silly.

`` Actually, compare dogs. We now have about 200 breeds of dogs world-wide, all of which are descended from just one kind of dog. It is the repeated cross-breeding and isolation of certain characteristics that gives us the bloodhound that has a great sense of smell, a Labrador Retriever that is good for assisting humans with disabilities or an Afghan hound that is built for speed. If you can agree that it is scientifically possible to breed specific characteristics into dogs, why should it surprise you to find that it is possible to breed specific characteristics into human beings? ``

Any scientist with a ounce of morality/ethics would never consent to your insane theories.

`` Yes. Let them take a competitive entrance examination if you think intelligence is due to nature, not nurture. If you think intelligence is due to nurture not nature, 55+ years of mollycoddling these idiots have proved that thesis wrong. You and the Commies would want 3,000 years of reservations and that would set India behind Saudi Arabia.``

To say Indian entrance examination is an accurate predictor of intelligence is a joke. Tell me there is no other practical way to determine admissions. I will buy it.

I understand why Tamil Brahmins go off the edge when it comes to reservation. Large number of average BC/OBC engineers has kept Tamilnadu and Bangalore a dominant player in the IT industry. I do not need a rocket scientist sitting at a help desk.

here is why indians are not good at bulding cars. its because the ``knowledgable`` brahmins were averse to doing any real work for at least a millenium, all the toil done by those without any access to knowledge. that is the reason a sickle or a plough in india NEVER changed since the bronze age..why? the brahmin was busy reading the four vedas and cooking up yet another purana or some cock-n-bull puja to extract alms.

one good caste brahmin of most excellent rigvedi lineage, experet in sandhya, and of Vasishta gotra (which is offcourse a premier gotra) was visiting and tried helping me remove some snow on the driveway. about 3 1/2 minutes into the excercise he started wondering how snow removal tools can be improved, method can be modified, and came up with a large number of possible alternatives such as 1) a special puja, 2) a canopy for the driveway to keep snow off 3) a heating system and so forth.

offcourse he had the choice of such lateral thinking..over time perhaps he would have improved the shovel (or called the plough-guy). a peasant in a stratified caste is told to do his job just like his daddy did or else..he never had the benefit of education which he could perhaps use in this task.

QED its the brahmins fault. and any case, iyengars are fairer than iyers.

#90 speaking of idiot brahmins, harimau is an excellent example.

When schooling changed over from the gurukul system to the western method of imparting secular education in a neutral setting, brahmins also made the switch, since they were pretty much the only ones involved in the gurukul system. This gave them a head start when it came to acquiring useful, modern knowledge. It was nothing more than happenstance.
As Jang alludes, our administrative system has been staffed with high castes, and especially brahmins starting from the british era. If you think the country is screwed up, blame it on the brahmins then.
I have known lots of idiot brahmins who got cushy jobs because they had vital connections - someone knew someone else who was in a secretariat in dilli and the person gets a helping hand, gets a few promotions like clockwork and the cycle starts over with him helping someone else. Not surprisingly, the connections are caste related.
What the reservation system attempts to do is break these connections and restore some semblance of equal opportunity. You have to swing the other way a little to make for all the advantages that the current set enjoys.
Even tho as a person of brahmin parentage, i have been at the wrong end of the reservation system, i heartily endorse the quota system. It has its flaws and it needs to be tweaked for sure, but that it is there sends a strong message to the deprived castes that there is some hope. It may not transpire at the end, but it`s better than nothing.

There is no one answer to all these complex questions. Caste and its subtext, discrimination against other humans, will exist in one form or another for ever, But if each one of us who inveighs against society and fellow-contributors to Chowk(!), can contribute time to teach, send one child from a poor family to school, or help with nutrition, hygiene, uniforms, books, fees, it can make an immense difference. We are so fond of yelling insults at each other, (just take the responses to this article), we lose sight of the main picture.
The worst thing is to say,``I``m fine, and me and mine are fine, I couldn`t care less what happens to the rest!``
Thanks for all the passionate replies. Get people moving!
Revathy