Rifts, Fissures, Cracks, Gaping Holes

Revathy,

India`s unique accomplishment in that part of the world is that in spite of its mind boggling diversity along various dimensions like ethnicity, caste, religion, economic status etc, it has managed to build a system that caters to the needs of large numbers of the ordinary people. That too without violence. When we look into our neighborhood and see countries like Pakistan, Myanmar, countries in the middle east, we can all pray to God and thank him for his kindness and bounty to India.

Sore loser.

Revathy,

You are the sort of people who would cry `sexual abuse` even if a man pulls you aside from the railway track when an oncoming train is about to hit you. Stop seeing shadows where there are none. Indian leaders are not about to sell off India`s interests anytime soon nor will the Indian public allow them to do so.

how come two of u are ALWAYS the first ones to post comments on articles appearing on FP??

The usual leftist whining and entitlement talk.

Not a single practical suggestion on improving state schools; not a single idea on how to create 2X more excellent schools. Just the the same old ``oh, the goverment must give more somehow`` or ``these bad middle-class urban people, keeping all the good schools to themselves``. And this passes for analysis and thought???

Let me tell you a story. Over the last 2 years I have attempted to contact over 20 ``progressive`` dalit/leftists organizations regarding education. I have offered to raise $10K/per year in perpetuity for education/tuition/assistance. NOT A SINGLE ORGANIZATION OR INDIVIDUAL HAS EVEN BOTHERED TO REPLY TO ME !!! I suppose they are such great ``intellectuals`` they dont need to bother with such routine stuff.

So who do I fund instead: ``fascist`` hindus !! The same people communist revathy is pouring scorn on. Ekal Vidyalaya, Ramakrishna Mission, CRY etc. These people and the missionaries are the only ones interested in creating schools, changing things etc. NOT A SINGLE jholawala LEFT-WING LOSER HAS ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE OTHER THAN LONG ANGREZI WORDS! Plus burning a few buses and killing a few poor policemen.

[....The hosannas that are being sung and India’s sudden high visibility make it most suspect; if it weren’t so frightening, it would be hilarious. The scenario has all the elements of a steel trap...]

The hosannas being sung on India are hilarious alright - but there nothing to be ``frightened`` about.... Let the Indians enjoy their day in the sun, as long as it lasts.... after decades of darkness imposed by you leftist mofos on wrethced multitudes - they have finally got a break....a breath of fresh air..... a little sun-shine on their entire blighted existence....Let them enjoy the hosannas a bit - at least some people have worked hard for it....

So can you leftist f***ers take a break from your unending bullsh!t?.... can you just shut up for a second and let people enjoy their achievements a bit - those who have worked hard to get where they have got?......

And rest your fevered mind, don`t be frightened, no need to cower in the corner....there is no ``steel trap``, nobody is trying to take over your wretched country, there is nothing to take over... Like you yourself pointed out - india is country of endemic poverty,corruption, deprivation - so why would anybody conspire to take you over? what benefit would your unwashed masses be of any use to anybody?.....

you leftists have already put 60 years down the drain, wasted entire generations, you have made the country poor, deprived and completel f***ed up.... so take a hike.... let people who are working hard to make a difference do their jobs - give them a chance....

Don`t be afraid, everything would be OK....

Hey Revathy,

I am guessing we both come from different angles to this problem. But I agree with your central theme of doing more for `Backward` castes. Inspite of the uneven progress we have achieved so far, we have many more miles to go on this issue.

Casteism is the scourge of Hindu society. In the struggle to purge it, we have to keep a close watch and strive to remove caster barriers from all facets of our life.

Specifically about reservations, I dont like the quota system but the inclusion of Dalits in Private institution and even Private sector companies should be actively encouraged by the government either in form of tax credits or preferential allotment of contracts etc.

Some of the people who criticize you here cannot understand that, the merit based admissions which they advocate is not perfect and is determined a lot by family wealth, the education of elders. We need to level the playing field for backward castes and reservations are one of the best way. Of course, in the same vien, I also support removal of Creamy layers in each generation

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Hi Revathy,
As usual, a readable article - in some time.
I agree with you that caste is a curse on India.
Alongwith it, we must also remember the rot that is religion.

India appears shining to America now as they see in it some sort of future leverage against the godless Chinese. No doubt, foreign policy is sometimes blind in its pursuits. Makes you wonder if it is just religiously blinded. Note how the western media completely blacked out Gujarat 2002.

We should make full use of the present good fortune asking for the best possible economic deals.

Parthaab the shameless communist liar writes:

[quote]
Note how the western media completely blacked out Gujarat 2002.
[quote]

Here are just a *FEW* of the articles in western media. Gujarat was on the front-pages of the NYTimes for a full week. There were probably more than a 100 major articles on this in the NYTimes and Washington Post. But marxists dont need to deal with reality, right???

SHAME ! SHAME ! SHAME ON LIARS AND CHEATS WHO PRETEND TO BE PROGRESSIVE!!

Grisly Discovery Reopens Old Wounds in Village in India
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/20/international/asia/20gujarat.html


World Briefing | Asia: India: Life Sentences For 9 Hindus In Killings Of Muslims
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE0D91F3EF936A15751C0A9609C8B63

Religious Riots Loom Over Indian Politics
... that pulled into Godhra station at 7:43 ... the train at Godhra station, which is in ...View free preview
July 27, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 3035 words

New Violence Adds to Strain On Alliance Ruling India
... the town of Godhra, killing 58 people. ...View free preview
April 14, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 813 words


Angry and Ashamed, Indian Prime Minister Tours Riot-Torn State
... the city of Godhra, where he inspected the ... . ``Godhra`s incident was shameful, ...View free preview
April 5, 2002 - By BARRY BEARAK (NYT) - International - News - 632 words

Riots Shake Friendships And Faiths In India
... a station in Godhra, 95 miles north of ...View free preview
March 24, 2002 - By SOMINI SENGUPTA (NYT) - International - News - 840 words

India Seeks to Head Off Any New Violence
... when Muslims in Godhra set fire to a trainload ...View free preview
March 12, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 866 words

The World; Gandhi`s Dream and India`s Latest Nightmare
... small city of Godhra, Muslims set fire to ... reaction to the Godhra massacre. In an interview ...View free preview
March 10, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - Week in Review - News - 1233 words

Instability in India
... the town of Godhra, also echo the violence ...View free preview
March 7, 2002 - (NYT) - Editorials and Op-Ed - Editorial - 496 words

After Deadly Firestorm, India Officials Ask Why
... Muslim mayor of Godhra and two Muslim city council ... what happened in Godhra remain, the context for ... the population, Godhra is almost evenly divided between ...View free preview
March 6, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 1189 words

Killings in India Spread as Toll Rises Near 400
... children, from Godhra to Ahmedabad and other places ...View free preview
March 3, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 516 words

Hindu Rioters Kill 60 Muslims in India
... station, in Godhra, especially given the state ... Muslim neighborhood in Godhra, often shouting slogans about ... It was in Godhra that Muslims attacked one of ...View free preview
March 1, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 1312 words
NEWS SUMMARY
... A mob in Godhra set fire to a train ...View free preview

February 28, 2002 - (NYT) - New York and Region - Summary - 1125 words
Fire Started on Train Carrying Hindu Activists Kills 58
... train paused in Godhra, which is 40 percent ... `` In Godhra, all schools and businesses ... the attack in Godhra. But they reserved their ...View free preview
February 28, 2002 - By CELIA W. DUGGER (NYT) - International - News - 1141 words

---

I wonder how much reporting on Gujarat violence took place in the Socialist heavens of China, Vietnam and Cuba?

Actually this is a fairly well balanced article. I didn`t find anything stridently left wing about it.

I`m a little confused by the third from last paragraph? The author says the caste system is present everywhere in different forms (mostly as a matter of economics or xenophobia). So we assume this has been endemically common throughout human existence. What is the argument for then? Is it that in India this seperation has been endorsed by religion?

I`m going to add the last paragraph of one of my favourite books ,`` Wind Sand and Stars`` by St Exupery not as an answer to the last paragraph but more as a topic of debate. For those who have not read the book St.Exupery is looking at a child of two Polish labourers as they flee Spain during the civil war. It is a little racist in it`s reference to Orientals but that is the way most of the Europeans thought then, and maybe that itself should make us look at ourselves anew.
Here goes ......
``
I bent over the smooth brow, over those mildly pouting lips, and I said to myself: This is a musician`s face. This is the child Mozart. This is a life full of beautiful promise. Little princes in legends are not different from this. Protected, sheltered, cultivated, what could not this child become?



When by mutation a new rose is born in a garden, all the gardeners rejoice. They isolate the rose, tend it, foster it. But there is no gardener for men. This little Mozart will be shaped like the rest by the common stamping machine. This little Mozart will love shoddy music in the stench of night dives. This little Mozart is condemned



I went back to my sleeping car. I said to myself: Their fate causes these people no suffering. It is not an impulse to charity that has upset me like this. I am not weeping over an eternally open wound. Those who carry the wound do not feel it. It is the human race and not the individual that is wounded here, is outraged here. I do not believe in pity. What torments me tonight is the gardener`s point of view. What torments me is not this poverty to which after all a man can accustom himself as easily as to sloth. Generations of Orientals live in filth and love it. What torments me is not the humps nor hollows nor the ugliness. It is the sight, a little bit in all these men, of Mozart murdered.
``

““Why do state schools function so badly?” “Why are teachers not better trained and why do they not teach?” “Yes, yes, we are knowing that only people with the right accents can get into English medium schools.” “How will Dalit children cope with problems in the curriculum, the barriers in the social system within the schools, lack of help at home?”

I am kind of surprised that why the author is being called a sore loser when all he had brought out some issues in the education system. What makes him a sore loser? Is it being sore loser to discus problem facing India?

The questions that the author is discussing can be legitimately asked in Pakistan too. There are certainly two sets of education systems in both countries. Poor invariably end up in the state run schools that “function badly” and teachers are not trained.

What ails India, is not the problems in India but the mindset of some Indians that refuses to accept the problems. Why Indians refuse to believe that there is an India out there that has extreme poverty and problems that are equal to if not more than any other third world country.

Why they refuse to accept that:
A full 65% of Indian population still lives in extreme poverty in rural India
46% of Indian do not have electricity and still use kerosene to light up evenings.
70% homes are in dilapidated conditions
India highways cover only about two percent of the country.

I mean one can go on and on the list is so long that it will take books to document that.

Can one Indian on this site claim that all Indian kids have access to education what to talk about the equal education?

There are problems in the system, education system included. Instead of discussing that honestly Indians would rather call the person who brings out the problem sore loser. What kind of head in the sand approach is that?

Far worse than that is the fact that some Indians really are living in a world that does not exist -- a fantasy world so plainly free of facts and reality that it is truly disturbing for them if someone even points out that there are problems in the education system or anywhere else in India.

India is a poor country. It is so poor that most of the world equates it with Hungry kids and naked fakirs roaming the streets.

Why some Indians hate facts so much?

If posters don’t agree with the author, then they should present counter facts. It is not that they don’t know how to cut and paste.

Who is the sore loser here, the one discussing the problem or the ones that are running away from the facts?

#10 swarrier

I agree it is not stridently left-wing. But it is still based on ``victim ideology`` of the left - here are some victims, lets hate somebody.

We need a ``change ideology`` of positivism. This is the biggest thing missing from many left-oriented people. HOW CAN WE CHANGE THINGS ! Not just complaining about somebody or giving lectures about how bad caste system is. Or how many indians are narrow-minded and backward looking. You think indians have a monopoly on narrow-mindedness???

Here is a story about change. Naturally, the chief protaganist is a fascist hindu! Amazing that progressive left-wing people never do these things. Why should they? They are superior human beings and only need lecture us on our shortcomings.

---

http://www.indianembassy.org/ind_us/news_media/cab_ny_jan_23_00.htm

In New York, just a cabby, in India, a school`s hero

Emigrant Lifts Horizons of village Girls

New York Times - January 23, 2000

Doobher Kishanpur, India Jan 17- The New York City cabby, a big-bellied, fast-talking philosopher-driver with a hide as tough as a water buffalo, stood in the doorway of a school here today, sweetly bidding farewell to 180 little girls in blue-and-white gingham who poured in to a dusty brick lane at the end of the school day.

Namaste, Om Dutta Sharma said to them, pressing his hands together in the prayerful Hindi greeting (pronounced ``nah-MAH-stay) as they chorused back their own tinkling goodbyes.

For 20 years, Mr. Sharma has barreled through the streets of Manhattan in a yellow taxi, saying his crumpled tips, never taking his wife out to eat, scrimping on new clothes for his sons, to make this act of goodness possible. He has given his village a school for girls and named it for his illiterate mother, Ram Kali.

In New York, Mr. Sharma and his wife are just struggling immigrants. But here in his village - a place without even a single telephone - their incomes, modest by American standards, make them philanthropists-``I am worthless in New York``, said Mr. Sharma, whose father grew sugar cane on a 10 acre plot nearby. ``Here, I am everything``.

The two-story brick house where Mr. Sharma, 65, was raised is now filled with first to fifth graders laboriously scratching out their lessons in chalk. One recent afternoon, rows of girls in bright red sweaters sat on the roof in the warm winter sun poring over their sums while a man on the next roof shaped fuel patties from dung.

The Sharmas can afford to educate and care for these farmers daughters because money buys more here than in New York.

Mr. Sharma and his wife, Krishna, nurse at Bellevue Hospital Center, contribute the $2,500 a year it costs to run the bare-bones school. The girls sit on the floor and write on small chalkboards. Each of the five teachers earns just $35 to $55 a month.

To hire a local doctor to give the girls regular checkups, Mr. Sharma spent $500 more from the earnings of a mango orchard he planted years ago when he and his brother inherited the family plot.

Mr. Sharma is now expanding the school so that 500 girls can attend through high school. To pay for his ambitious plan, he says he and his brother have submitted affidavits promising to donate the family`s 10 acres of land to a charitable trust they have set up in India, Mr. Sharma will also give half the money from the sale of his taxi medallion, which he estimates is worth $ 220,000. He bought it in 1981 for $ 75,000, and said he planned to sell it when he retired in three or four years.

If he succeeds, more girls in the village will have a chance of schooling beyond the primary grades, a step forward in traditional north Indian villages like this one, where a girl`s odds of learning to read and write are much lower than a boy`s .

The mother of a 9 year-old explained that her daughter would not be permitted to go to coeducational public school after she finishes the fifth grade at Mr. Sharma`s school. Many villagers want their girls to go to girls-only school, even though the public schools are open to both boys and girls.

``We villagers don`t like that, ``said the mother, Sumitra, her hands determinedly planted on her hips as her daughter, Nancy, stood meekly beside her, eyes downcast. `` After fifth, if will be necessary to hold her back, But if there is a girls` school, she can go up to 10th.``

The Sharmas, who live in Woodside, Queens, are educating their own sons too these days. They have taken out $50,000 in loans to pay for Pramanik and Prasheel`s college years at St. John`s University in Queens, Mrs. Sharma said.

Even so, after Mr. Sharma`s mother died in 1996,hefelt that the time was right to take on the cost of educating some little girls he did not know in a village where he no longer lived. The doors of the Ram Kali School for Girls opened in the summer of 1997.

Re: # 8 parthaab

Here we go - one more commie to the mix..... yep - these guys will lift India right out of poverty and deprivation... even though they couldn`t do squat in 60 years they ruled....

Re #11
HP : The writer is a woman. Revathy is a woman`s name. I don`t think anybody over here can be blind to India`s warts. It`s as Mohar11 mentioned , all of us want a little place in the sun. Most of us are tired of the old image of India (snake charmers, begging children, lepers....). None of this has gone away completely and probably never will at least not in our lifetimes. However there are some good things too.

Re #12
pmishra2 :
I`m not sure that this article is exactly based on ``victim ideology``. It seemed more compassionate to me. I don`t know anything about Ms.Gopal but I`d hate to label her as a leftist just based on this article. It seemed to me to be an article that anybody could write, left, right , centrist. After all why should we not discuss what is wrong with our society when we discuss what is good about it.
I know quite a few people, fascist Hindus, leftists , whatever you wish to call them who are doing a lot of good work amongst the poor. In fact some weeks ago the English newspaper the Independent carried a story of a husband and wife team that helped rag pickers stitch bags from recovered plastic and these were being sold in boutiques all over Europe.
I think people like Mr.Sharma in your story are wonderful . They don`t run away from facts. Perhaps Ms.Gopal doesn`t either. We don`t know what she does.

All I want is a substantial reduction [if not full elimination] of commie mentality among indians.... the mentality which has made India poor and pathetic..... From now on - there has to be ``can do`` culture.... no more whining, no more ideological BS and no more xenophobia like the author has displayed [``The sudden spate of visits to India by important and self-important men and women from all corners of the earth signifies... a steel trap]....

Rest all is fine.... caste problems have been tackled to a large extennt and more has to be done..... there is large scale disparity in various segments of society - the gap has to be bridged...

But it cannot be done unless we stop whining and start working...

``it cannot be done unless we stop whining and start working...``

The biggest whiner on the site is talking about other whiners..

It is a part of the Indian psyche....

Far worse than that is the fact that some Indians really are living in a world that does not exist -- a fantasy world so plainly free of facts and reality that it is truly disturbing for them if someone even points out that there are problems in the education system or anywhere else in India.

Re: # 16 HP

As usual - you don`t know jack from your a$$.... nobody here as ever said there ain`t no problems in India.... the debate has always been how to solve it.... the commie way of whining about it has led the country nowhere..... now is time to get going - do reforms - in infrastructure, in gov`t, judiciary, education, healthcare - you name it - we have problems in it....

Get it?

So talking about schools and school system is ``commie way of whining`` so what is the the other way of whining the RSS whining, the BJP whine...

Indian world is so strange that even they can`t decipher it.

Welcome to

Fantasyland of India....

Another example of ``commie way of whining``.....

From frontline

“The result is that by the most reliable estimates more than half of India`s
children are still out of school, and two-thirds of those so-called ``drop-outs`` ...”
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1716/17160700.htm

“SADGOPAL calls attention to something that is taken for granted in India: an inequitous system of parallel schools and coaching sub-systems, at the very bottom of which are funds-starved, bureaucracy-choked government schools. The government schools form an ``educational ghetto``, far from welcoming even to the poorest children. Their chief use seems to be as squalid creches where parents can leave their children when they go to work; that too, only for a few years, until the children themselves go to work”

So is this a “commie way of whining” too..

HP

Yep - another example of commie whining.....

``which are funds-starved, bureaucracy-choked government schools`` - commies are ruling for 60 years - so why are the gov`t schools starved?.... why is beaurocracy choking it?... what are the f***er doing for last 60 years?....

Not only schools - the bureaucracy has choked almost everything in the entire country... The remedy is to reform... take controls away from the blood-suckers babus... but as soon as you try to do that - the same commies will block it and start whingin again....

Remember Mumbai Reconstruction Plan?....commies blocked it.... a proper plan could have worked to the benefit of the city and the slum-dwellers... but commies didn`t allow it...

Like I said - you don`t know jack.....

So Talking about problems is ``commie way of whining`` in Indianspeak.
Interesting folks of the fantasyland of India.....

Re: # 19
HP you are playing into Mohar`s hands. Frontline is a well known left sympathising newspaper. It`s all doom and gloom there except the occasional bright bit.
Re:# 18
India`s Fantasyland is in Jogeshwari East in Bombay. You must go there. They`ll take you for a ride any time.)))

#22 by swarrier

I know Indian papers more than this guy....

I am just amazed at the level of divide...This paper is commie because they write about problems. When I will start posting the same thing from the pioneer, it will be the RSS whiners and so and so forth.

Every problem in India is a commie problem. Considering the commies are in the ruling coalition, they have to take the blame because no one else would.

So talking about the school system is a commie way of whining because there is no problem in the school system. it is just the half the Indian kids don’t go to schools ever.

That is a commie problem too...Blame this blame that never take the ownership..

That is what I call Fantasyland of India.

Thanks for the address though.

Re: # 21 HP

Nope - stupidity is the commie way .... they can`t do the job and they don`t allow others to do it.... and then they come back with same old bullsh!t, same old crocodile tears... we are just sick of their talk talks and incessant whining.....

Like I told you before - Talking about problems is NOT the issue here - the issue is how to solve the problems... commie way hasn`t worked - we all know it.... so why are commies still b!tching and moaning?.... when you ruled a country for 60 years and ran it to ground - you should accept your stupidity and get out of the way - so that able people can do the job right....that`s all we are asking for.... get out of the way - do not block progress.... do not block investments, initiatives, reforms that we all know works.....

The idea is to invalidate commie mentality and ideology - show one and all that, these people and their ideologies are fake and they don`t work..... that we have keep these people aside, otherwise we will continue to be poor and derived.....

Revathy:

``The sudden spate of visits to India by important and self-important men and women from all corners of the earth signifies something that only the very blind and impervious will see as being a good thing.``

Why is it bad?

what has this para to do with the rest of the article?

---

wrt to the rest of the article:

the problem is indias primary education system. We need huge investments, similar to what we need in case of infrastructure development.

you are right that in rural india we have ``ghost`` schools where we may not even find benches and chairs forget about the Master.

but it boils down to the leadership and the vision of the HRD and the Education Ministry.

the state is that the gov. can`t do much hence the private players are stepping in.

HRD is more interested in indulging in vote-bank politics and deciding what IIT`s, IIM`s should do.

education should be a basic right of the citizen, that should be a priority of the gov. not private institutions.

first the gov. can`t/hasn`t done anything. if someoen else wants to do something than they come with their politics.

what do you think should be done. do you have any ideas to alleviate the situation?

Mohar,

So democracy is no good. They are there because people like them...people don`t like you and your ideas.

What makes you think that their getting out of the way would help, if you don`t provide the answer or a solution.

So we ignore the commie way of whining, what is your way of whining.... or what is your solution?

Revathy:

one more issue:

``In the programme on BBC World Radio, the theme of excluding of Dalit children from education in private schools came up.``

could you please tell us why were they excluded. Was it a official policy or the Dalits couldn`t pay the fees or couldn`t pass the entrance tests (if any).

Re: # 23 HP
[...So talking about the school system is a commie way of whining because there is no problem in the school system....]

Nope - there is hell lot of problems in the school system and every other ``system`` we have... how do you solve it?.... have to get more money for social programs... we all know a huge chunk is held up in ``public sector`` companies[ the cash cows that are milked by commeis for personal benefits].... so let`s divest - get the money out and spend it on schools, teachers, food whatever - right? good idea?....

But no.... commies will hear none of it.... after commies took over - there has been no divestment program whatsover..... and yet they have the temerity to come and whine about bad schools.... you f***er blocked the solution, remember?.... who the f*** is going to teach them that simple logic....

Why are YOU fighting on behalf of commies anyway?....

Ah well, the usual suspects...
Mrs. Gopal, this article is shot thru with compassion and I salute you for it.
However, isn`t it easier for the government to issue orders to private schools rather than try to improve public schools? In essence the government is saying we don`t know how to fix things but since you have done it, we command you to oblige us. The intent is good but the government admitting incompetance and asserting its authority at the same time does not bode well. Besides, who is going to subsidize the tution of the quota students?

Regarding india`s ``time in the sun,`` what makes me uncomfortable is all the bragging that goes with it. The chinese and even the japanese up until a decade ago, have been very circumspect, cautious and given to understate their accomplishment. Empty vessels and all that, but from a practical standpoint you don`t want to antagonize other nations by flaunting which they may see as a threat to their way of life.

Indians should emphasize how we are a dirt poor nation and we are not stealing jobs from anybody. How can money help when the air is choking with poison and the water, when it`s available, is polluted? We are like a beggar who found a 10 rupee note in the street and suddenly felt wealthy.

#10 swarrier, thanks for the quote.

Re: # 26 HP

I told you the possible solutions... are you reading my posts?

examples:

1. Bad schools - solution: get money from out of the PSUs - All PSUs should be privatized and resulting money should directly handed over to an independent commission to spend on schools, healthcare or whatver....

2. employment - solution: labor reform.... hire and fire with benefits....

3. infrastructure - solution: full FDI on automatic ruote - no permssion needed from govt....

Of course - I don`t have solutions for everything - but one thing we know - commies have solutions for nothing.... they have proved that over and over again... they have to get aside....

Mohar,
``Why are YOU fighting on behalf of commies anyway?....``

That is funny. Why would I bat for commies? I did not even know that the author is commie. She is talking about a problem which is as grave in Pakistan as it is in India.
So my objection was: why is she being called a ``sore loser`` when she is presenting a problem which exists. It is not that she made it up.

Unless you talk about the probelms, you can never find the solution.
But the Indian way is to shove it under the rug or call the person sore loser....

Head in the sand.

Re: # 29 soy
[....Regarding india`s ``time in the sun,`` what makes me uncomfortable is all the bragging that goes with it....]

I agree - but what makes me uncomfortable is when commies come crashing on it.... I mean - what the heck do they have to show for all their bluster?....I am sure some people brag - but most are aware of the fact that we are far away from goal....

And who said chinese don`t brag?....

Re: # 29

soy:

``We are like a beggar who found a 10 rupee note in the street and suddenly felt wealthy. ``

better than the beggar getting his tattered clothes robbed in the name of ``common good`` :)

Re: # 31
[...But the Indian way is to shove it under the rug or call the person sore loser....]

Nope - indian way is to get whiners out of the way so that you have a chance to implement the solution....

and commies are whiners because anytime you come up with a solution - they whine, talk big and block the solution... the result - the nation is poor, uneducated and deprived.....

examples - they seek to block and/or blocked - city restructure, airport reform, PSU privatization, FDI in insurance, infrastructure, banking..... heck even you pakis have better ratings on FDI facilitation[even though nobody goes there] - you know that right?

So that`s what the whiners have done to this country.... my simple message is - stop your bullsh!t and get out of the way.... you have done enough damage already....

India – strident, chaotic, often anarchic – has always been more than the flavor of the season, and perhaps the world has finally come around to simply recognizing it. (Being a large market helps, too.)

Some of the social problems and evils that you mention are legitimate causes for concern and have been that way for a while – but I believe one reason such problems have stuck around is because of the lack of focus on them. Human beings being human and selfish will always have limitations and will not reform out of pure goodwill and certainly not because of any particular ideology. (Because of religion? Thanks for the laugh!) But most people do care about their image.

Therefore, publicity is a good thing.

There is nothing like daylight!

#36 (Addendum)

I forgot to say, sorry to get here late!

Labelling people / ideas as ``commie`` or ``fascist`` won`t help.. Only ``pragmatic`` ideas work.. I don`t think the policies of the last 60 years resulted in complete disaster.

It is true that govt. schools are a disgrace for the most part (other than a few shining exceptions). But the solution is not to disband the sytem but to reform it. Govt`s goal should be to provide Quality primary education for all at minimum cost to the public..(it would be better if
there are schemes like the mid-day meals to entice children to stick to school)..

Question to the author:

classrooms that are all-inclusive are practically non-existent in the villages of India. They in fact, perpetuate caste, keep Dalit kids out of the reckoning. ..

Do you have proof for this??.. We have reserved seats (22%) for Dalits in higher academic institutions (colleges) in every class for the last 60 years and a lot of people make use of it.. it implies that all those who got benefited have studied in cities / towns..
Maybe there needs to be a special category for ``rural Dalits``.. I am interested to know if there was any research behind it.. If the above statement is to attract westrern audience, ignore my question.. :-))

I`m thinking of making money some day by claiming how a lower caste guy like me got discriminated and came out successful after overcoming a lot of hardships to a ``receptive`` audience.. :-))

mohar11
Haven`t you flogged this particular dead horse enough already? Your commie strawman was funny for a while but now it`s getting boring. Commies are you kafirs or what?
China consistently understates its trade surplus. Nothing like we exported 200 b dollars worth more than we imported from the US, etc. Except perhaps with the japanese, china doesn`t go around telling everyone how big they are.

I see that we have another pakistani socialist advising us on how to improve india. Usually these guys tend to be rich and well-connected. Naturally, they feel they can lecture us coolies on how to improve themselves. They can also make reference to extremist publications like Frontline (home of Prafool Bidwai, N Ram and other comrades).


What these paki socialists forget is that indians have lived with socialist politicians for a long time. We have seen how they pamper their own constituency and how little interest they have in genuine change. We see them encourage privileged workers at airports and hospitals to demonstrate and destroy.

I agree that the issue is a practical one. It needs practical methods for solution. Why cannot we double the number of private schools? What is the constraint? Why cannot there be neighborhood groups that check everyday on the goverment schools? If the teachers are absent, why cannot there be a protest?

There are so many practical ways of making progress. I see NONE of them mentioned by Revathy. She may be well intentioned but nothing in her article suggests she has done anything more that complain. Sorry, that just isnt good enough...

Of course, rich hypocrites like HP are in a totally different category, a category inhabited by Arundhati Roy and the like....

Re: # 38
[....I don`t think the policies of the last 60 years resulted in complete disaster....]

There are silver linings of course.... but after 60 years of self-rule, if you still have something like 500 million unwashed poor roaming around - what do you call that? Most people will call that a ``disaster``....

we can count the blessings - even though some people accuse you of bragging, fantasy-land and such - but we have to move on.... the obstacles are many and they have to be removed, old failed ideologies have to be discarded....

Funnily tho mohar11, it`s the commies of china who are making a difference.
Chinese official: communism will succeed only when people are tired of bourgeoise, hence we are trying to create as many bourgeois as possible :)

Re: # 27
Netizen... I don`t think any private school in India would prevent Dalit children from joining if they could pay the fees. However private schools are expensive as we know. When my son attended school in Bombay I was paying something close to Rs 18,000 a year for a reputed ICSE school in kindergarten. Contrast this to me spending about Rs 120 per annum in a convent school in the same city 20 years earlier. ergo, not many Dalit children can attend these schools.

So who`s going to subsidise them? Many middle class people struggle to send their children to private schools so that they will have a better future. They go without little luxuries themselves. They will not subsidise the Dalit children and it would be unfair to ask them to.
So then who will?? The government. No school private school will permit that. It will mean government interference in the running of the schools.

So do you ask Industrial houses to set aside money for these children. They might , but then they might demand their pound of flesh. Admission quotas for their employees , kids etc....

I have friends who run a school in India where village children are taught. It`s in a place called Arasavanangkadu in Tamil Nadu. They depend on donors and they are doing quite well. However their teaching style is a little different but it is successful as they`ve been able to help kick start similar schools in other areas like Pondicherry etc..

That said I`m still not sure that Ms.Gopal is a leftist commie etc etc etc..........She wrote and article where she hasn`t blamed anybody. Just asked a few questions.

Re: # 39 soy

I was talking about individual chinese...... they brag when they get a chance and why shouldn`t they?....

if you think commie-issue is a ``dead horse`` - then I don`t know what to say.... obviously we have totally different read on the situation...:)).... and I would be happiest person if you were correct...

Re: # 43 sw
[....So then who will?? The government. No school private school will permit that. It will mean government interference in the running of the schools....]

A voucher program could work.... 60% paid by govt, 35% paid by the private schools [ some tax credits??], 5% [or a nominal fee] paid by the students....

At the same time - govt schools must be improved with massive infusion of funds with required change in delivery structure....

A holistic approach has to be taken.....

The author might be a `commie`, but the problem she raised is real.

Caste discrimination is still real and present in every walk of life. We have made some progress since Independence, but a lot more to be done on this front.

People blame Commies and Socialists for the rot in the country, but these very policies created a means for backward castes to progress. The Public sector and massive Buerocritization in the last 50 years have definitely held back the progress of India, but through the reservations in these Govt. controlled insititutions, generations of backward castes have managed to move up the social/economic ladder.

Now as we move away from Socialist economy to a Capitalist economy with all it`s accompanying features of Meritocracy, Flexible Labour laws etc. , this problem takes on a new dimension and becomes more acute.

How do we continue the make the path easier for Backward castes? We need to have an active policy (I prefer a non mandatory one) to increase the representation of Backward castes, while not endangering the competitiveness of our economy. Let`s not postpone the problem like some of the East Asian countries who ignored the social inequalities till a sufficient level of economic development had been achieved.

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Re: # 43

Sorry that should read ``wrote an article`` ,,,, used a conjunction instead. My bad......to use an Amrikanism

what is the efficacy of RSS run schools in tribal areas? there was a big stink a while back that they were raising a core of hindutva brigade.

can the author please interact????

Revathy has raised important issues that hinder progress of India. Even though she did not state any solution(s) but we can discuss it here. Dont know how many ideas will be used.
Education is a ticket out of poverty in India. It is important if you want to move ahead.
Its important that India has reservations even though I dont like the quota system. But after 60 years of it one needs to look back and see what progress have been made. What are its benefits and more importantly what is wrong with it.
Reservations should have limited use i.e. a person of SC, ST or BC should not be using it everytime. Maybe once to get in college and once to get a job. After that, for promotions and other opportunities he should compete on a regular turf.
With schools, the teachers needs to be held responsible for the success of students. If not completely atleast partially. We have teachers in government school that dont teach at all. It would be wonderful if a part of their salary can be tied to success of students. This is were perhaps the commie bashing comes in picture because of the teachers union.
The most important would be somehow to publish a report card for each government minister both at state and center. Hopefully some independent authority similar to election commission so that we can know what a particular minister or MP or MLA is doing with his time.
Private sector will play more important role as the economy opens up. If we can ask private companies to atleast let us know how many BC, SC or ST applied for a job and the reason for them not accepting them then one can know what is impeding the lower caste. This should not just be applied to caste but also religion and gender. The government census for religion is a good idea. It should not be politicized but the results should be understood how more muslims, women, backward caste people can be given more opportunities without discriminating against middle or upper class.

we all a fighting over the education system but i think the author has her own doubts about it.

she is not sure whether education cirriculum is sufficient to raise a man or woman to the elevated ranks of learning and culture and a balanced world view.

hence i think we are discussing something that the author is least bothered about.

Re: # 51
Education might not be sufficient reason but it is an important reason to elevate ranks of learning, culture and balanced view. It tries to teach a person to be able to think for himself.
When revathy asks question in her last para, the probable solution could be education. Hopefully that is why we are discussing it.

Re: # 41
mohar11:

There are silver linings of course.... but after 60 years of self-rule, if you still have something like 500 million unwashed poor roaming around - what do you call that? Most people will call that a ``disaster``....


``Education`` is mostly in the state list, and different states have had differing success rates. The literacy rate according to the last census is somewhere in the 65%, though the standard for what they mean literacy is very low..

But it`s a great improvement if you compared with the statistics of 1947. I think it was around 10%..If you think govt. spending on primary education is a commie policy, i need more of it..

What is needed from the govt. is not to cut back spending, but to introduce accountability and make the school management accountable.. Private schools are not paragons of virtue..They maintain higher standards in order to attract students and make money.. There are very few private schools with noble motives..

It is not that govt. school teachers are less paid. They get very good salaries compared to what you get in private schools.. It is the lack of accountability that gets the bad name for govt. schools..

``So Talking about problems is ``commie way of whining`` in Indianspeak.
Interesting folks of the fantasyland of India..... ``

Yup. India is a fantasyland where Commies create problems and then cry about it.

First screw India, and then talk about how India is screwed = Leftists.

Re: # 53 masan
[...If you think govt. spending on primary education is a commie policy, i need more of it....]

Where did you get that?... no way - I am saying exactly opposite - I am asking the govt` to spend more - ``massive`` was my word.... And the money has to come from somewhere - and that source would be PSU divestment.... but that`s where commies come in and screw up....

the second part - like you said - is accountability... the current delivety mechanism will not work - it has to be revamped....

Re: # 54 stuka

exactly....

Re: # 55

mohar:

``And the money has to come from somewhere - and that source would be PSU divestment.... ``

other source could have been the money earmarked for ``100 days employment`` programme. everyone knows where that money is going to end up.

this huge amount could have been used for productive outcomes like primary education. but who the hell cares, politics comes first, national priorities last.

Re: # 55

mohar:

Where did you get that?... no way - I am saying exactly opposite - I am asking the govt` to spend more - ``massive`` was my word.... And the money has to come from somewhere - and that source would be PSU divestment.... but that`s where commies come in and screw up....

the second part - like you said - is accountability... the current delivety mechanism will not work - it has to be revamped....


I agree with that..

Netizen, Mrs. Gopal is in india where it is pre dawn..

If I may interject, I went to government schools in rural tamil nadu where classes were often held under a banyan tree. We had a mix of teachers, some dedicated and very good, but for some others this was just a govt job with guaranteed salary and pension that also gave access to students who would come to their after-school coaching classes. Teachers running coaching classes ranked among the richest. They could afford to buy land and would be gone missing for days during harvesting, transplanting, etc. They also were usually knee deep in party politics.
In contrast, it was the poor, low-caste students who had to be absent from school for days during important crop seasons for that`s when you help out your family financially by working the fields.
If the infrastructure of the schools was bad then, it`s much worse now. The government seems to have abandoned primary education to the private sector.

Mohar,

The desi commies need to be sent to china and interact with the chinku commies to learn about free market economics. But the real problem is the state of West Bengal. If it were not for Bengal, there wouldnt be enough commies at the center who could influence policy.

One way out is for the rest of the country to punish West Bengal and Bengalis for this nuisance. There must be a national level movement of non-cooperation to boycott Bengal and Bengalis until they stop voting for commies. There needs to be a concerted national action focused on making the bongs change their ways.

All industrialists should move out their operations and close whatever investment is going on there as long as those fools keep voting the commies to power. Also other states must discourage bongs resident in West Bengal to apply and get jobs out of state. You vote for commies, you live with them and enjoy their magnificent system. Dont try to get out of Bengal and enjoy a good life outside, when your choices are screwing up the nation.

In one sense the Pakis are lucky....they got rid of their Bongs in 1971. If only, we could let them go and join Bangladesh, we would have 10% growth in rest of India and conquer the poverty issues

Calling china a communist country is insult to communism. Its a dictatorship headed by a small group of people.

re: this article
A nice article
There is no doubt caste system is a big curse in India. It is a legacy of a mental sickness that pervaded the Hindu society in the past.
My hope is that with globalisation, caste system will become irrelevant.
Already, the strict hierarchial rule of the caste (where a carpenter`s son can only become a carpenter etc) has broken down completely at least in big cities, towns. In villges, old system prevails but will break down once globalisation spreads there.
Sridhar

re: private schools
I think private schools have ushered in a slow revolution in education in India. Even poor familes are sending their children to these schools where quality of education seems to be better than any govt schools.
This NY Times article talks about such a revolution.
( In this democracy of more than one billion people, an educational revolution is under way, its telltale signs the small children everywhere in uniforms and ties. From slums to villages, the march to private education, once reserved for the elite, is on.

On the four-mile stretch of road between this village in Bihar State, in the north, and the district capital, Hajipur, there are 17 private schools)
(``If anything should be free, it is primary education,`` said Amartya Sen, the Nobel Prize-winning economist. No developed country, whether France or Japan, had educated itself using private schools, he noted.

A recent census in the slums of Hyderabad, in Andhra Pradesh, found that of 1,000 schools identified, two-thirds were private, according to James Tooley, a professor at the University of Newcastle in England who oversaw the research.

``In big cities, it`s more or less over,`` an economist, Jean Drèze, who helped write a national assessment of education in 1999, said of government primary education, although rural students depend heavily on government schooling. ``Within 10 to 15 years, government schools will be almost wiped out.``)

(But it has neglected elementary education. India spends only about 1.7 percent of gross domestic product on primary education, and 3.4 percent for education overall (compared with about 5 percent for Brazil). Up to 40 million children are out of school, something the government hopes will be remedied by a law passed in 2002 that made free and compulsory education a fundamental right for children up to 14.)
Sridhar

If you make comparison with other countries then only you can come to some worthwhile conclusions. Variation in access to education exists in all countries. I think so we need objective index for comparison.

``Language, history, science, maths, these are the fundamentals of any curriculum. Yet getting acquainted with these skills, if not exactly mastering them, does not make a person educated.``

Indian education system does not impart basic enterprise skills. Even basic skill of ordering food in restaurants, taking a ride in bus/train, etc etc are all left to chance events in life of a person. Like sex education. Sometimes these ``real`` skills make or break future of a person. In USA a schoolgoer is taught how to drive a car. To drive a car you need a license. Earning a driver`s license is part of coming of age in USA. But you do not need a license to walk the street and find a place you wish to reach using walking as only ``technology`` that you use. Or using a bicycle or find your way about in a town. Most important skill that a schoolgoer in India will learn is to look up a number in telephone directory. Yet how many of us were formally trained to do that? How many of us made a telephone call from a PCO before graduating from school? There is a divide between those who made a telephone call in their school years and those who did not. So how about ``teaching`` how Indian PCO phone works? How about systematically making a list of ``real`` skills and make them part of curriculum?

Re: # 54

Abe Stuka,

Rashtravadi Narendrabhai Modi ko opoose kar ke commie ka rona mat ro? Pricks like u r any day a bigger problem than the commie. See my interact to DM. When are u and ur APNA types` taking Train to Pakistan (one way, no return ticket and surrender passport at the border).

Absolutely no Regards
Sanatani

Re: # 60

Throw Bengal out of the Union I agree, will look forward to the day when we can act so decisively.

Regards
Sanatani

When I was a small kid, I used to visit a nearby Temple along with my father. The sight of too many beggars sitting outside the temple used to disgust me. One day I asked my father that when these beggars are sitting outside the temple for the whole day and God doesnt do anything for them then what is He going to do for us who come once or twice in a week to the temple?

My father replied that these beggars are made to sit outside the temple--so that in your pursuit of God, you donot forget that there many many poor people around who need your attention and care.

The above words of my father have left a profound effect on me.

Coming to the commies, yes we can throw them out of the country along with those who support them-- but let us not forget that then in our pursuit of ``God``, there will be nobody to remind us that there are poor people around in our country who need our attention and care.

it`s good to see that the educated Hindus are aware of the scourge of Casteism as a blot on the fabric of an otherwise tolerant Hindu society -- and I am sure Indian Hindus have advanced since Gandhi`s days in this direction -- but seeing the Hindu matrimonial adds of educated kids in India Abroad or on Shadi com negates that feeling.....

what`s needed is more and more articles like these of self-criticism and self- introspection.....without apologies for a decadent practice of yore for both the Hindus and even the Muslims.....of the subcontinent....

Re: # 68 nasah
[... Hindu matrimonial adds of educated kids in India Abroad or on Shadi com negates that feeling...]

True.... but I think it mostly reflects the parental mentality rather than the kids` themselves.... the kid probably wouldn`t care as long as he/she gets a good looking partner with good earning potential :)

its very easy for indian states to increase their education spending by 4 folds..if they dismantle other nonsense state-owned beurocracies and PSUs ..e.g. dismantle the stupid tourism deparments of each state, electronic corporations, agro-products coporations and so on, and just the pension funds of employees will double spending for schools. but the commies will definately strike to protest this.

Revathy:

Yes, India has a serious problem of lack of good primary education for poor in general and low caste poor in particular. I am in favour of caste-based reservations in private schools and I also agree with the BJP that those reservations should be extended to the minority-run private institutions as well.

But this will only be tinkering with the problem. Even those low caste who make it under the reservations would most likely come from the creamy layer of the lower castes, so the incremental effect may not be very significant.

The root of the problem is the lack of attention paid to primary schooling. This is where resources have to be diverted. And it is not just a question of monetary resources; as soyasauce pointed out, there is a lot of corruption in government run schools. The lure of private tutoring has had a very serious effect on the quality of teaching in regular schools. Perhaps, a radical solution such as providing vouchers to poor parents which they can use in any school of their choice should be considered.

Even this chinese guy gets it....

http://ia.rediff.com/money/2006/mar/22asoc.htm?q=tp&file=.htm

Q: Besides the predictable answer of infrastructure, what are India`s problem areas?

A: Ideology. Socialism is still ingrained in the minds of many in India.....

Ref avkrishna #7

[Some of the people who criticize you here cannot understand that, the merit based admissions which they advocate is not perfect and is determined a lot by family wealth, the education of elders. We need to level the playing field for backward castes and reservations are one of the best way.]

How does the education of a previous generation contribute to the ``intelligence`` or ``determination`` of the next generation? If intelligence is genetic, then you are supporting the caste system. If it is not genetically inherited, then every generation has to stand or fall on its own merit.

Ref HP #11

[““Why do state schools function so badly?” “Why are teachers not better trained and why do they not teach?” “Yes, yes, we are knowing that only people with the right accents can get into English medium schools.” “How will Dalit children cope with problems in the curriculum, the barriers in the social system within the schools, lack of help at home?”

I am kind of surprised that why the author is being called a sore loser when all he had brought out some issues in the education system. What makes him a sore loser? Is it being sore loser to discus problem facing India?]

You mean, you are planning to write an article on the Pakistani madrassahs?

Ref masanamuthu #38

[I`m thinking of making money some day by claiming how a lower caste guy like me got discriminated and came out successful after overcoming a lot of hardships to a ``receptive`` audience.. :-)) ]

Nobody will come listen to you. There is more money to be gotten out of whining.

Point #2: You didn`t get discriminated AGAINST; you got discriminated FOR. People like me LOST so that you could get a professional education you wouldn`t have qualified for.

Ref pmishra2 #40

[Why cannot we double the number of private schools?]

Absolutely. Take the example of engineering colleges in Tamil Nadu. Right now there are 250+ engineering colleges in just one state churning out code coolies. These code coolies -- be they Brahmins or Dalits -- once they get some job, realize that they got to perform on the job if they hope to keep the job. So they actually end up getting a work ethic. You want to see the results? Shiny new office buildings in Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai. Lots of scooters, motorcycles and cars on the road. People thronging the restaurants and bars. Jewellery stores having to hire security personnel to keep buyers OUT.

By all means, privatize all education. Then there will be none of this talk of strikes by teachers, strikes by school peons, etc.

[What is the constraint?]

There is no constraint. Come to any small town in Tamil Nadu and see the students throng the English-medium schools. Look at schools in Chennai that consistently send 10 of their students to IITs each year where all your money won`t buy your kid admission.

[If the teachers are absent, why cannot there be a protest?]

The only kind of protest is where you lynch a couple of these so-called ``teachers``. That would shape the rest of them up.

For those who missed it, here is my post on Farzana Versey`s board ``Love Ya, Dubya`` (interact #56 on March 3, 2006)

[We are spending most of our money on defence. Not on education, literacy, health. What kind of upward mobility is this?]

No, the government doesn`t have to spend money on education. Because it has been shown that government schools are the pits. And of course the teachers are selected not because they love teaching but because they belong to SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC, etc. And soon, if the current UPA government has its way, because they are Christians or Muslims. (Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists somehow don`t count. And forget about Hindus.)

The latest Ananda Vikatan (a weekly Tamil magazine) has the story of Waheeda. a platform dweller in Chennai. Her father Shakir Hussain has a lowly job. Her mother Lakshmi, now called Fathima (why doesn`t THAT surprise me?) picks rags from garbage to make ends meet. They are sending Waheeda to the Church Park Sacred Heart School, an exclusive private school where even middle-class parents hesitate to send their children because of the fees.

Nope, they are not expecting a handout from the government. And they are prepared to sacrifice their present for the sake of Waheeda`s future.

If more people do that, there would be no need to spend government money on education. We could close all government schools and tell the leeches named Masanamuthu or Love Queen to take their degrees with a major in Periyarism and shove it up their butt.

Re: # 73

````How does the education of a previous generation contribute to the ``intelligence`` or ``determination`` of the next generation? If intelligence is genetic, then you are supporting the caste system. If it is not genetically inherited, then every generation has to stand or fall on its own merit.````

What I meant by this is that the more educated the parents are, the more educated the children are likely to be. Not due to genetics, but due to a different nurturing environment where education is stressed, the awareness of different possibilities, financial means to secure these etc.

Do you disagree?

Thanks,
Avkrishna

#72 MOHAR11


Q: Besides the predictable answer of infrastructure, what are India`s problem areas?
A: Ideology. Socialism is still ingrained in the minds of many in India.....

No. I dont think that socialistic ideology is one of India`s problem. Even you leave aside Left Parties( even they are changing now albeit slowly), there overall perception is that the government should leave as many areas as possible and private sector should be given free hand to run the country. The government should only control Defence, Currency and Foreign affairs and act as a regulator in the market.

The real problem is our mind-set. We cannot think that we can also be one of the great countries of the world. Our cities can be as good as anywhere in the world. We can look at the western cities and exclaim wow! they are great--but cannot think why our own cities can be as clean or as great as theirs. The moment we step out of our houses and are on the roads, we think we can spit anywhere, throw any trash anywhere etc.

But this thinking is changing. Many cities have changed themselves drastically--one of the prominent one is Surat in Gujarat--which is a kind of role-model for rest of the country. And now since a great private participation is expected in infrastructure development including townships, lets hope that in the next 10 years, a few of the newly developed areas match the world standards.

Ref avkrishna #78

[What I meant by this is that the more educated the parents are, the more educated the children are likely to be. Not due to genetics, but due to a different nurturing environment where education is stressed, the awareness of different possibilities, financial means to secure these etc.

Do you disagree?]

Yes, I do.

I know of a TamBrahm family which lived in the US for a long time. The father was an executive with a large American company. The mother, though a homemaker, was active in Indian cultural affairs. Lived in the best suburb with excellent schools. Both were educated with college degrees and pedigrees up the wazoo.

Their kids dropped out of high school. One of them started working as a check-out clerk in a grocery store.

In the case of another family, the kid became a dope peddler and is spending life in prison.

What have you got to say about these? What disadvantages did these kids face for them to become what they are?

Re: # 80

What you have given me an anecdotal evidence of two families you knew. Anecdotes does not make a trend esp. when you have other, more poweful evidence in hand.

I think if we consider the following statistics, we will get a better idea:

1) % of admissions in any premier institutions (say IITs) by their family background in terms of education

2) % of Reserved seats for Backward castes taken by `Creamy Layer` children

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Ref avkrishna #81

[What you have given me an anecdotal evidence of two families you knew. Anecdotes does not make a trend esp. when you have other, more poweful evidence in hand.]

The only more powerful evidence we have is that the BC/MBC/OBC/SC/ST cannot and will not compete on an equal footing.

Take a look at what some farmers did in Pune.

Compare that to Manmohan Singh`s talk that he would make Bombay into another Shanghai and the Commies` determination to keep India down.

As far as I am concerned, the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC masanamuthus can cry buckets that with their bogus degrees in architecture and tonn planning, they have not come up with one township like Magarpatta.

http://specials.rediff.com/money/2006/mar/22sld1.htm

Re: # 82

I did not get you here. Can you elaborate in detail about what you mean by your statement?

Are you saying that Reservations are not needed at all??

Thanks,