Kibbutz Criminals

Re: # 3 parthaab

You want to what intolerance looks like? Go to saudi arabia and show them a bible[or gita]... you will know....

Re: # 3: I will let the link on Jews be taken care by Jews. However, I would reply about the Hindus.

First of all, I do not state that Hindus are ideal. When there is frenzy, e.g., India`s vivisection, or there is war, cruelty surfaces and dominates. Under the conditions of humanity, so far, it is unavoidable. Gujrat ignominy is an example of that. The real test of tolerance is not under emotionally charged conditions. Spousal murders are a case in point.

The crucial test of tolerance is carried out when the laws of a society is made deliberately. It is in the provisions of the Constitution and its effective implementation. How do we recognize and accomodate for the ethnic minorities and those that differ from us ideologically, politically and philsophically shows our fairness and tolerance levels.

Hence, have not the Hindus passed the test as they granted political and social equality to Muslims even though India was divided by Muslims` insistence on separate land for the Muslims? The crucial test lies in the grant of joint electorates that Nehru bestowed on all Indians. If Hindus had insisted on the total deportation of all Muslims from India THEN, they would be at same level as Muslims of Pakistan are today. No, even then they would have been higher since the Muslims killed those Hindus who did not go to India.

Re: # 1

Tolerance of Hindus : http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/

Tolerance of Jews : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4779442.stm

Btw, I wonder what intolerance would look like?

Farzana: Your article is too diffuse but the last sentence is crisp and so I respond to it.

``There is a lesson in this for the Muslims to acquire the two ‘P’s: public relations and a good dose of persecution. ``

Everywhere in the world`s Muslim Countries, they are the persecutors, de jure as well as de facto. So, unless the Muslims learn to give respect to others they can not get it back in return.

And, yes. No amount of public relations will elevate Muslims to the tolerance level of Hindus and Jews.

Sorry to see that some indians are also prone to the disease of israel/jew obsession. I had thought this was a mental disease peculiar to the arab world. The main symptom of this malady is to believe that all problems in the world have to do with jews or israel.

But then it spread to pakistan (no connection to israel/palestine!) and now apparently to some indians as well.

Too bad.....

More abuse - this time its the Islamists :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4831184.stm



Should nt religious brainwashing be itself regarded as mental torture for children?

sopranos shows a jewish mob-boss, there was a show on network TV with a Jewish racketeer from Atlanta as the main ruthless character.

muslims will do very well in PR if they dominate professions..no PR needed.

May be Farzana wants to be in Mukhran Mai shoes for a few days to see how bad the Jews are.

More evidence for Hindu tolerance :

http://www.geocities.com/Indianfascism/bombay_riot/shrikrishna_commision_report.htm

More abuse - this time its the Islamists :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4831184.stm



Should nt religious brainwashing be itself regarded as mental torture for children?

Re: # 13, parthaab:

Your questions/suggestions are relevant.

But remember recognition of the rights of minorities DOES NOT mean putting them on higher pedestal. Also, we have to operate in a realistic un-faultfree melieu. That means that people have to, unavoidably, contend with personal prejudices. Each person - and only a personal level - is entitled to his/her prejudices.

There will always be de facto preferences of the majority community everywhere in the world. But the wisdom lies in undermining the personal prejudices via a legal representation of the minority fairly in the court of operations. There should be no de jure discrimination. Remember de facto discrimination operates in a much arena than religious minorities. What we need to learn to distinguish between, is: personal right to conduct one`s own business with one`s personal choices versus legal/deliberate deprivation of the choices for the minorities.

To answer to your specific points:

Quota system is not the best policy for the development of a society. There may be 3 % employment because the educational level of the minority is not up to par.

Specifically, for Muslims, may be instead of focusing on the Madarsa education they should attend the regular schools to prepare themselves better for the society`s needs. They should learn to operate in the society as a whole not its 10% corner.

As far as residences are concerned the ``forced integration`` is not a panacea as is clear from US experience, but no doubt there should be encouragements for the voluntary integration. That is done not by quota system but by spreading education where there is a recognition of the importance of the diversity and consequent enrichment.

One critical factor encouraging the multiplication of interfaces between the Hindus and Muslims can be dicouragement of religious conversion subsequent to marriages as the level for the integration is being corrected by the younger generations which are more educated and more free from the poison of religious intolerance.

De-emphasis on the divisive force of religion can also be a societal force towards the integration. It would be very helpful to desocialize the religions - Hindu as well as Islamic - and relegate them to personal level where they legitimately belong in a modern society. This would be not only helpful in reducing the Hindu/Muslim tension but also encourage development of fair play within Hinduism which is sorely needed..

Re: # 27:
parthaab: how many Muslims can turn around in a fashion parallel to mohar11?

Re: # 13 parthab
[..Fundamentally, you should ask if you are tolerant or not, from the minorities you claim to `protect`...]

Good point.... that will be an interesting survey - Are the majority tolerant? I wonder how much %age IMs will say yes.... So why don`t you do that - take a survey around the country and see what people say...

Re: # 11
Fundamentally, you should ask if you are tolerant or not, from the minorities you claim to `protect` ( that in itself is a subject for debate)


What if the minority muslim community turns around and says : Look, we have only 3 % in government jobs, our education levels are least and we are not preferred even for private jobs?
What if they say that the principle opposition is majoritarian, religion-wise?
Or that in Gujarat, muslims are not even sold houses in `Hindu` zones?
Fundamentally, you should ask if you are tolerant or not, from the minorities you claim to `protect` ( that in itself is a subject for debate)

parthaab - all:

The very fact that you are able to find these reports shows how the total system which is based on 85 % Hindus is operating to safeguard the rights of minorities.

No such reports would be found in Pakistani press, government or even among the sane Muslims of Pakistan - who no doubt have been completely suppressed by the Mullah Brigade.

AND IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE OPPRESSION - DE JURE AND DEFACTO - DOES NOT EXIST IN PAKISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost every one, at some point in their history, is persecuted. How you respond to it determines who you really are.

Vietnamese, Jews and many others suffered tremendously. But they did not specialize in killing innocent civilians of the oppressor nation. They fought back regular armies of the opponents and got sympathy from the world as well as their opponents.

On the other hand, Islamic fundos think that it’s a brave act to slit throats of media folks on web. Even their “elites” are blind enough not to see why they are hated by every one. They think it’s just PR deficiency and it can be taken care of by slight reallocation of oil funds.