Saviour or Tinpot Dictator?

#543 by Mantolives

I have already responded to all your points in point by point rebuttals and proved that you don`t have a single leg to stand on- as you have been unable to substantiate your points or even clarify exactly what it is that you want to prove to the rest of us.

Yaar Yasser, you indeed look like a fool when write like this. Instead of saving your hide, such posts expose you to be the dishonest spinmeister that you are. One would think that instead of writing yet another meaningless post, you`d actually provide the pertinent posts and shut me up permanently. But thanks for letting Chowk know for what you are.

Ultimately you were trying to hide behind Salim (and raw-dust) but even that proved to be inadequate when salim mian clarified his stance.

In case you think I didn`t notice, there were some portions of Salim`s post that you left un-highlighted. Those portions were not exactly singing paeans to Jinnah. In Salim`s unique style, he was actually excoriating him but like the typical propagandist, you simply picked up what you wanted us to see.

Was Gandhi valued little by Nehru when he refused to visit him or by the fact that Nathuram, once a committed Gandhi follower, shot him dead?

Please let us know when Nehru refused to visit Gandhi. As for Godse shooting Gandhi, please let us know which prominent leader doesn`t have enemies/detractors? Even Abe Lincoln was shot dead. And Godse was a right-wing Hindu who had nothing to do with the establishment whatsoever, unlike Jinnah who was let down by the very men he trusted.

#542 by majumdar

There is a widepsread belief that MAJ`s (pbuh) last words were ``Pakistan has been my biggest blunder``. Is that true or like most such last words purely apocryphal.

Majumdar Sahib, even I`ve heard of such a thing but have never found any proof of it. Maybe Yasser can answer that, but I doubt if he`d do that honestly. Even if there were other Pakis who know that he did, we`d never get to know it because Jinnah questioning his own baby would be too much for them to stomach. That would be tantamount to accepting that Pakistan was a colossal blunder.

Manto mian,

Notice that you posted the post No. 543 on this article, equals the number of elected representatives of the Lok Sabha. Not only are you a true democratic but also a patriotic Indian. Welcome aboard, sir.

Regards

Majumdar..

There is no real evidence that he said that... but I would imagine that in pain and seeing how his followers were making a mess of things during his last days when he was bedridden he might have said it in angst and pain.

Dear Harish mian...

Simply because you say something doesn`t mean it has become the truth. You think it does and I note that you do indeed think that- but I am telling you its not how others perceive it.

I have already responded to all your points in point by point rebuttals and proved that you don`t have a single leg to stand on- as you have been unable to substantiate your points or even clarify exactly what it is that you want to prove to the rest of us. Ultimately you were trying to hide behind Salim (and raw-dust) but even that proved to be inadequate when salim mian clarified his stance.

As for Jinnah dying in an ambulance- he died at 10:30 PM on 11th September 1948 in the government house in Karachi. Yes the ambulance broke down and it was perhaps meant to accelerate his death ... every country faces conspiracies... Was Gandhi valued little by Nehru when he refused to visit him or by the fact that Nathuram, once a committed Gandhi follower, shot him dead? About Punjabi hegemony- Salim is right because Jinnah`s presence would have meant a unanimous constitution and that would have curbed a lot of things.

Harish bhai,

(The fact that he was left on an Ambulance to die is proof of how valued he was once Pakistan was created. )

There is a widepsread belief that MAJ`s (pbuh) last words were ``Pakistan has been my biggest blunder``. Is that true or like most such last words purely apocryphal.

Regards

#539 by majumdar

Punjabi hegemony has happened in Pakistan not becuase Punjus are bad people but because they are in a large majority. It is natural and happens everywhere in the world- dont see even a man as great as MAJ (pbuh) could have prevented in the long run .

Jinnah was relevant only as long as Pakistan was achieved. The fact that he was left on an Ambulance to die is proof of how valued he was once Pakistan was created. So it is easy to guess what Jinnah could have done to curb Punjabi hegemony.

#528, #530, #531, #532, #538 by Mantolives

Yaar Yasser, the clearest sign that you have been unable to respond to the issues raised in my post #527 is that you turned our discussion from who was responsible for DAD into whether Salim or Raw_Dust can be manipulated into endorsing someone`s stance.

You have wasted 5 posts without so much as bothering to answer those questions, and instead talk about professors and sources. I`m sure if you don`t want to write yet another long post, you could simply provide the link with pertinent points excerpted. But no, you won`t do that. Instead, adding yet another claim to the already huge heap of unsubstantiated claims, you say ``Asiananda is generally regarded as harmless``. By whom?

Looks like those professors haven`t gotten the lessons across to you properly.

Manto mian,

Punjabi hegemony has happened in Pakistan not becuase Punjus are bad people but because they are in a large majority. It is natural and happens everywhere in the world- dont see even a man as great as MAJ (pbuh) could have prevented in the long run . For instance, in USSR, Russians had a hegemony, in Indonesia- the Javanese. In that sense India is lucky that there is a grand mess and no clear cut ethnic majority of Hindi speakers- even Hindi speakers are more conscious of being Biharis, Rajasthanis, Haryanvis etc. than of being a Hindi speaking monolith.

Regards

Majumdar,

There are two points here:

Salim Bhai is talking of Punjabi hegemony- which he rightly believes (in my opinion ofcourse) would have been contained by Jinnah. Urdu-Bengali issue has more to do with ``locals`` vs ``Migrants`` sort of situation. The Urdu-Bengali issue had little to do with the final Bengali disaffectation since in 1956 the constitution declared Bengali one of the two national languages.

Also I believe the words that Jinnah used in that Paltan Maidan speech were ``State Language`` not ``national language``. The ethno-nationalists and linguists i.e. Palejo and Fakhr Zaman point this out on several occasions. It might have been a blunder but it must be recalled that no less a person than Agha Khan was calling for Arabic as the state language- which would have been a disaster (recall Ghulam Abbas` ``Hotel Mohenjodaro``). Infact in the same speech Jinnah also called for the promotion of Bengali as the provincial language of East Pakistan.


Salim bhai...

Fancy yourself as the Caesar I see? :)



Harish mian...

Since after 534 and my post 532, it is abundantly clear that whatever our differences - Salim bhai does not lend himself to be appropriated in any partisan cause....

I must now come to the source (that you took from a biased website) ... that of SPGC chief Gurcharan Singh... yesterday I was reading Khushwant Singh`s book ``Not a nice man to know`` and on page 257 ... he speaks of the gentleman you refer to as an example of the corruption and deterioration that has sunk into the SPGC... which has made Gurduvaras tools in partisan politics.

So- poor Asiananda (or even H M Seervai) - who is generally regarded as a harmless benign person- should not be considered a scholar because you don`t approve but we must take the word of Mr Gurcharan Singh, who is being denounced by a fellow Sikh of a lot of credibility as a corrupt and illiterate person ? Just another example of why you must go to primary sources instead of cutting and pasting off of websites.. what can I say- My professors were right about sourcing and you are wrong.

-YLH

Salimbhai, Manto mian

(First of all, he would not have allowed Punjabi hegemony or the loss of East Pakistan because of that selfish hegemony.)

Not sure of that. In fact the first signs of Bengali protest came when MAJ (pbuh) came to Dhaka and made a speech that Urdu would be the only national language.

(Salim bhai will realise that neither did Jinnah but it was Congress that forced this partition on him and his PAKISTAN. )

Hmmm, so MKG and JLN should be called the Father Of Pakistan not MAJ.

Regards

Mantolives, #535 {``One thing is certain- no one can appropriate you for his or her cause... and this is why you remain truly unique on chowk. Keep it up- even if I disagree with you on somethings``}

Manto Bhai,
Thank you for your objectivity and tolerance. Respecting and accepting differences of opinion is the foundation of civilized behavior. Of course we are all always right until we listen to others. :)

While disagreeing with you, I do respect your unique capabilities in persuasion and debate. You could probably make me confess to fathering Cleopatra`s child and even convince me into sending child-support payments to Alexandria. :)

Salim...

Thanks once again for expressing your point of view in such an eloquent fashion.

One thing is certain- no one can appropriate you for his or her cause... and this is why you remain truly unique on chowk. Keep it up- even if I disagree with you on somethings.

#532, Mantolives and #525 Harish_hyd,

Mere Pak Hindustani bhaayyoN,

Thank you for recognizing my schizophrenia over the Jinnah/Gandhi/Nehru/partition tragedy and yet being so kind to my lack of cohesive thought on the topic. Yes, I love Hindustan, the united land of my ancestors that has given so much to mankind. Yes, I admire Mohammed Ali Jinnah as the brilliant, modern, westernized, champion of secularism and Hindu/Muslim unity. Yes, I admire Mahatma Gandhi as the moral force of determined non-violence that forced the British to ``quit`` India (after dividing it). I even admire Nehru for his sacrifices, for time spent in jail, for working hard to preserve India as a democracy, even a token one, but ensuring that its democratic institutions were solid and bound to bloom one day. I admire Patel for being ruthless in ridding India of feudalism. What I don`t admire are the negative shadows cast by these great men in their pursuit of power, independence, and separate identities for essentially a united people with very minor differences in language, religion, and race.

I don`t appreciate Mr. Jinnah getting intimidated by Lord Louis in accepting partition, when he really had no intention of dividing the country. I don`t admire Mr. Nehru’s acceptance of partition as the ``lesser`` evil and thus cementing his own bid to be India`s first premier. I am amazed at Gandhiji`s withdrawal from the limelight at the most crucial point in Indian history in 7000 years. I don`t respect Sardar Patel`s anti-Muslim bias in accelerating partition. The only thing that I am certain about is that partition was the worst of all evils for the hundreds of millions of Indians who certainly deserved a better birthday gift from their leaders. These founding fathers appear as the great marathon runners who started off like gazelles, persevered like rhinoceros, but in the end collapsed short of the finish line, like helpless donkeys, who could not bear the burdens of freedom, leadership, and responsibility.

ayesha jalal should be awarded the highest honor by pakistani elite..why? she came up with the most (albeit flimsy) fig leaf. alas, noone in pakistan reads or understands her. no need to, they KNOW the reality, pakistan ka matlab kya? rest is complex yoga contortions, including some which bury heads so that no light can be seen.

Since Harish mian feels Salim Chauhan- who I feel is an extraordinary interactor no matter how you see his views- is in his corner... it merits to repost his #488

The few misgivings/differences Salim has may be dispelled as and when he reads Ayesha Jalal or H M Seervai and he will realise that it was not Jinnah who pursued partition in haste...


#488 by Salim_Chauhan on April 21, 2006 12:51pm PT
Aquaris #484, to arjun`` #482 {``and after the comment Mr Salim Chuahan made...
I think One must appreciate your effort...... ``}

Aquaris et al,
I think many of us are saying the same things. I respect Manto for his persistence, his presentation of his viewpoint, and his due diligence in gathering detailed information to support his case. Most of all, I am in agreement with him about secularism, religious tolerance, democratic institutions, egalitarianism, modernization, equal rights for all regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, language, and religion.

My point is that, if we agree on all of this, and I am sure that most of our decent Indian neighbors will agree with these principles, then what on earth was the need to partition united India?

As far as individual characteristics are concerned, I have always admired Mohammed Ali Jinnah as a talented, intelligent, secular, fair, objective, very honest, and articulate leader - especially when he was the ``Ambassador of Hindu/Muslim unity.`` What I don`t understand is his 180 degree turnabout and haste toward the latter part of his worthy life. I think that perhaps, losing his wonderful wife, Rutti, may have taken the enthusiasm and love of life out of him.

What I have against Jinnah is the haste with which he pursued and obtained this suicidal partition that never really helped anyone - except for the rapists, murderers, and plunderers in Punjab, Bengal, Bihar, and Delhi.

Not everything bad in Pakistan is really Mr. Jinnah`s fault. Knowing his determination to attain goals, at great personal sacrifice, I am inclined to believe that had he lived to be 130 years old, we would see a different Pakistan than the one that is irritating most of humanity today. After all, success is the best proof of intentions. First of all, he would not have allowed Punjabi hegemony or the loss of East Pakistan because of that selfish hegemony. He would have kept the mullahs at bay and never resorted to terrorism, fanaticism, or created the Tally Ban. Most importantly, not one little Napoleon in the entire Paki army would have dared usurp political leadership.

But then I ask again - why resort to partition in the first place? There are other human beings besides Muslims on the planet. Why can`t we solve our problems and progress WITH others? Besides, once Muslims are left alone, they invariably fight among themselves due to Shia, Sunni, Wahabbi, Ahmedi, and Ismaili differentiations. Sorry, I don`t see the logic in religion-based segregation of mankind.

[Reply to interact #488]


When he reads H M Seervai, Ayesha Jalal etc ... Salim bhai will realise that neither did Jinnah but it was Congress that forced this partition on him and his PAKISTAN.