Saviour or Tinpot Dictator?

#59 Burps

Burps, what is this with you, mian Manto, and the ``gay`` stuff - and why do you keep bringing it up on every board?

#55 Shoe

Didn`t anybody tell you - bootlicking is a required course in Law school! But some Pakistanis are simply better at the fine art than most others!

BJKumar...

Einstein, a great physicist, who never met Gandhi ... vs Dr Ambedkar who suffered Gandhi first hand? Who should one believe?

Ambedkar= Gandhi was a manipulative blue blooded Hindu fanatic. Ambedkar- the man responsible for India being a secular democracy.

So ... please seek solace in what Einstein said about Gandhi... because thats only way you`ll be able to justify your admiration for the man... because what Gandhi himself wrote gives a completely different picture.

shobig...

Musharraf had to do what he had to do - vis a vis FATA etc- because he was a dictator. MMA won on the Anti-American card as well as because PPP and PML leaderships were in exile. There is no question that with BB and NS in the country... MMA would not have won.



PS to BJ...

I had no intention of exposing Gandhi for what he truly was on this board as well... some things are too ugly to be exposed all the time... but your pathetic unprovoked bakwas that flies in the face of reality left me no choice. I want to make it clear that you and only you are responsible for the Gandhi-loincloth-denudation that shall flow on this board henceforth.

Re: # 60 Manto,
for the records, I am not a mullah nor a religious person - & - with all your personal abuse and whatever reasoning - Ahmedis will be non-muslims constitutionally -
Janab, Hindus accused Muslims of India before for political reasons & I accused Qadyani Community on strictly religious bases - theres a huge difference - yes, Quaid-e-Azam acknowledged the role of Ahmedis Community so do I politically but in religious sense I am against this community`s viewpoints on the end of prophecy -
Manto ( meray bhai ) whats constitution ? its not a holy book - nor anything to do with religion - it is a man - made book of laws of how to govern the state - constitution has to be agreed or made ideally by all the political forces of the land - constitution was made & amended by the will of all political forces of land
I had never resort to personal attacks on yourself during all our replys & I don`t expect from you - I am not a mullah nor a religious person - & kindly when someone runs out of option he says mullahs were against creation of Pakistan and all that things - well thats a old statement - plus I am not a mullah infact I don`t agree with Maulana Madoodi

IB...

Your reasoning is almost as sound as the resident Hindutvist freak of this board - BJ Kumar.
Like that old ally of yours... you don`t have an argument ... therefore you must go in circles repeating lies ...

You said you questioned Ahmadis on religious grounds... if that was the case I would not disagree... but pray tell ...when you brought up the question of alleged Ahmaddiya loyalty to the British... was that religious or political. Like I said... its not about the constitutional definition. That constitutional definition alone does not discriminate against Ahmadis... but it is the Ahmaddiya legislation of the 1980s- which has nothing to do with the constitution- that is the problem... yes the legislation which can put an Ahmadi behind bars for publishing ``Bismillah`` on his cards.... or by which pious Muslims go and strike out the Kalima from Ahmadi graves... this is what I am referring to.

And calling a spade a spade is not a personal attack. Your foolishness is on display. It is this foolishness which is why Hindu fanatics like BJKumar consider people like you their best and most favored allies.

i) Bibi is confused of meeting Nawaz Sharif - she thinks that it will close all her options

ii) Nawaz Sharif is actively persuading all political parties to revolt against Mushraff - in which MMA is 100% with him plus PPP although confused but will eventually unite - MQM too is being contacted in this regard & MQM will if not openly support ARD but will eventually play a neutral part because MQM hates Chaudry Sahab & Co.

iii) Ex-PM Jamali will join forces with ARD

iv) A Foward Bloc in PML (Q) will support PML (N)

Re: # 69
Manto ,
I am sorry I brought political grounds -
I don`t believe in violence or cheap acts like striking out kalma from the grave but
why do Ahmedis use such things ? use Bismillah - consider themselves Muslims in
the first place - in a way they pre-empt this - the law says don`t do this now laws are laws
right or wrong -- they should not publicly displays any signs which would actually angers
masses -- knowing - that this would start some sort of problem --

Re: # 58
I disagree , General will leave army and politics in 2013 and retire.
HE IS DEFINITELY NOT OUT AS AMERICA WILL NOT ALLOW VIOLENT WAYS IN PAKISTAN AND LEGALLY HE IS ELECTED> HE WILL SEEK ELECTION GET ELECTED AND RETIRE.

nasah re: # 51

This ``transformation`` as you call it has come through as a result of a lot of thinking, interactions on here, and my own life experiences not least my getting v close to maulvis in the past few years and realising they are, even with the best of intentions, living in a self-induced delusional view of the world which is still stuck somewhere in the past--around the 12th century or so. I also realised that the best place to be a good Muslim is somewhere like the UK where one is free to do as one wants...my visit to pakistan recently reinforced that...I suddenly realised i would NOT want to live in a state ruled by maulvis...the rest fell in place since i would otherwise be facing my own hypocrisy in the face and it got too painful after a while. the idiotic actions of the OBL and his ilk..the bombing at Nishtar Park was the straw which broke the camel`s back. My visit to pakistan also served as another shock: i realised that apart from the colour of my skin and my ability to speak bookish Urdu, I didn`t really have much in common with pakistani people and i realised how, in terms of my outlook on life, how very Anglicised I actually was!

My own private faith in Islam is still as strong as ever but i think now that the age of empires is over and even the era of nation states is at an end; it is the age of information and economics above all else and of individual freedom...

Wah bhai... IB... kiya baat hai yaar.. tu BJkumar say melay pay to nahin bichra thaa kiya?

And what if it is part of the Ahmadi faith?? Should they change it to please your highness...
They pray 5 times a day like Sunnis... read the Quran and give the Azaan the same way...
Should they stop saying Bismillah because you or the Pakistani constitution doesn`t consider them Muslims ?

What about article 20 of the constitution which promises religious freedom? This is precisely my point. But you could never understand this could you? Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah said that how could anyone declare someone who professes to be a Muslim a non-muslim? Perhaps had you read something about that great man you would be more open minded. To think in his country you`ve made a mockery of his ideals.

But I am not even saying that... I say ... fine you don`t consider Ahmadis Muslims and the law does not consider them Muslims... but atleast have the dignity to allow them to consider them whatever they please? Why does it offend you? Your very existence offends the very recesses of my soul... should I come to Khi and shoot you? No. So then what right do you have to tell anyone else anything?

And let me tell you something... just because an argument is old... doesn`t mean it is untrue. I can very well understand that when I speak of these truths ... it bites Hindutvists and Mullahs alike in the rear so hard that they yelp... and hence your posts.

And don`t give me nonsense about these being laws... an unconstitutional military dictator made these laws... and a non-party-based parliament ratified them.. so it doesn`t mean shit...

Naqshbandi...

Bhai- your transformation is most amazing ... and is testament to the basic openmindedness of the Barelvi-sufi faith. These Maulvis have always been enemies of Pakistan ... and we must reclaim our Pakistan.

I was always sure that you would one day emerge as a great secularist as you were a true intellectual even when you spoke of others in terms of Zindiq etc...

Indeed this new conception of state that you have expressed would be in my view truly Islamic.

bless you Naqsh miaN -- and bless you Chowk for providing an abode of rationalility and common sense where thinking types like Naqshbandi can find their way to a real world of democratic secular dispensation -- and a world order of pluratlisc inclusive liberal values.....

I agree with you Naqsh for your choice of staying in UK -- despite your daily enduring of that Bush`s Bitch Blair Blaring Blather with beady eyes and a disgusting smile of a Cheshire cat -- every day and night -- on the British TV --

but don`t forget Pakistan -- do everything to help Pakistan become another secular demoratic country of the subcontinet -- that expunges the first line of its Constitution -- ONLY a Muslim can become the Presidnet of Pakistan.....and replaces it with -- ANY citizen born in Pakistan can become the President of Pakistan.....

well done.....my son you are headed for a great future....

Manto,
I am not saying or never said that Ahmedis should change there beliefs but what I am saying
is that they should not offend others by proclaiming that they are Muslims because not only the
law of Pakistan but the society in general is not willing to consider them as Muslims.
Anyone who prays 5 times , recites Quran does circumcise but does not believe in end of prophecy is
not a Muslim.
The vary constitution you refers to considers Ahmedis as Non-Muslims - Ahmedis are free to do what
ever they want but in limits
i.e ,
not publicly calling themselves muslims or to offend others

As I said before that my I am against Ahmedis in a religious sense & not political - Quaid-e-Azam was
not a Ulema-e-Deen but a founder of our great nation -

Manto Bhai ,
whos prorogates killings? I am up for a Ahmedi President , Prime Minister or who ever you want - there are ministers on provisional level who had occupied the seats & I am not against them . Why should I be ? I believe in merit & qualifications - all I am saying that Ahmedis are not Muslims & if they believe they are , they should practice there religion in private & respect 90% of others living in
Pakistan .
Manto on one end you care about one unconstitutional dictator laws & on other you shit on other who has different views - isn`t it a bit hypocritical ? ground reality is unconstitutional or constitutional laws
are there & practiced -
btw...although I am from Karachi I am posted somewhere in rural Pakistan - where there is a sizable Ahmedi population

Re: # 75
[...Bhai- your transformation is most amazing ... and is testament to the basic openmindedness of the Barelvi-sufi faith...]

Nah - it`s a testament to basic pwoer of the Daisy-Cutters.... Like they say - ``laton ka bhoot baton pe nahin jaate`` .... A few more daisy cutters inside pakiland will sure turn most flaming jihadis in to secularists.....:)

IB..

The point again is lost on you.

The second amendment to the constitution speaks of purposes of law... in particular that refers to civil law and ofcourse the constitutional requirement for the head of state to be a Muslim... I disagree with the amendment but accept it as the law of the land.

The constitutional amendment however did not place constraints on the conscience of Ahmadis... the kind you are proposing... How can Ahmadis be allowed their beliefs and yet should not ``offend`` your highness by saying bismillah or giving azaan or thinking of themselves as Muslims? This is what you don`t get. The state has no right to interfere in a person`s faith.

``As I said before that my I am against Ahmedis in a religious sense & not political - Quaid-e-Azam was not a Ulema-e-Deen but a founder of our great nation - ``

And constitutions are political matters and not religious. You may be against Ahmadis religiously or disagree with them... but you can`t put constraints on their freedom. Therefore you are as usual completely contradicting yourself.... you support political solutions (i.e. constitutional excommunication and legislation) to religious matters... and then refuse to listen to the views of the Quaid-e-Azam who you say is merely a political leader and not a religious one....

So many contradictions... pata nahin why educated Pakistanis are so feebleminded?

Re: # 73

Naqshbandi Sahib:

``My own private faith in Islam is still as strong as ever but i think now that the age of empires is over and even the era of nation states is at an end; it is the age of information and economics above all else and of individual freedom...``

Welcome to the rational world. I have been saying this ever since I have started interacting at Chowk. It is persons like you who will make the difference from within. You obviously know your Islam, and importance of Information / Knowledge age.

Anil Kapuria