Pak Armed Forces vs. Pakistan

zeemax #125 ``I have great faith in this country, and sooner or later it will meet its destiny. But in the meantime, the direction really sux.``

If you have great faith in Pakistan (as i do too - and for sound reason based on the history and geography of this region and in the innate capacities of the great people of Pakistan and in broad international trends), then we are on the same page on that basic point. There will obviously always be issues to be addressed and problems to be fixed, and these are course corrections to be fixed. and that is what progress is all about. This is certainly true for the kinds of economic issues you mention.

The political issues caused by the military/mullah nexus, admittedly, an unnecessary hurdle that have been placed by selfish men to the path of progress in Pakistan and have caused much damage to the political development of Pakistan away from the ``kingships`` and ``dictatorships`` and ``caliphdoms`` (and the oxymoron of an ``Islamic state``) that are relics of more primitive times in human history. But even here I think time is on the side of political progress in Pakistan towards a society based on universal principles and the orderly application of laws.

zeemax #125 ``I could write a whole article about it (perhaps I will) as to how micro-finance brings micro results.``

great. just be careful with what you write - this is an area which i know something about from my professional experience. :-)

#119 Kaptain

Wah, wah!

I think Pakistanis would have a less dictatorial army if the armed forces were REQUIRED to compose poetry as part of their basic training!

I hope my dear Mushy is reading this!!!

#124 by kaptain

Haha !!! Aey sarey kithey nas gaey neyn ??? lukday phirday neyn ...

As you say ... Aqal.Nahi.Tey.Maujaan.e.Maujaan..

#118 by tahmed32

tahmed saheb. I saw the nostalgia in your recollection of `Pindi of yore. Lahore`s situation is much worse. And Karachi? Forget it. You wouldn`t have seen Karachi of the 60s/70s or you would understand what a great loss it has been. And for what and why? That is my question.

So I draw the following conclusions from your response:

1) A drop in rural fertility rates compensates for the loss of cities.

2) Jageers are the basic hurdle to running roads alongside rural centres.

3) Micro-credit is building rural infrastructure.

I`m even more depressed now that I see how entrenched the delusion is.

Nos 1 & 2 are, excuse me, ludicrous. As for micro-finance, I could write a whole article about it (perhaps I will) as to how micro-finance brings micro results. No more. With Rs. 5,000 you can only roof your mud ceiling, or buy some dowry for your daughter turn by turn. Community lending (i.e. micro-finance) is nothing more than the `committee` system that your and my wife indulge in. Aga Khan`s micro is a bit better because they lend upto Rs. 150,000 (see the difference in approach?) but only to the Ismaili community in Northern Areas.

My question is simply what`s the problem? There are resources. Pakistan is, I always say, not a poor country. Its just that 2/3rd people are real poor. Defense spending I can understand, but why import more cars when you can build rural infrastructure and resolve these problems?

Now don`t get me wrong. I have great faith in this country, and sooner or later it will meet its destiny. But in the meantime, the direction really sux.

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Re: # 121 - @arstoo-

arstoo sahab..kithay nas gaye soo..

Re: # 121

Nawazish..janaab..Nawazish..
buss thoree Nazr.e Karam talab kartay hein...

#117 by kaptain

Kaptain saheb ... you`re the limit .... !!!

hh #111

1. On my being not critical of Pakistani actions in Bengal - If you review my posts on CHowk, you will I think find that I have consistently denounced not just evil actions done in the name of India or hinduism (Gujrat) but also in the name of Pakistan and Islam (1947, 1971). Those posts are generally addressed to fellow Pakistanis. I dont care to ``defend`` pakistan or islam from Indians on chowk, since these individuals are obviously here for purposes of ridiculing or berating pakistan or islam only - instead, i either refuse to engage in discussion with them, or show them the mirror to their own ugly realities that they blissfully ignore.

2. My comments are based on what I see on chowk. I have also heard similar comments from a top western journalist who was based in the subcontinent - she said that in Pakistan there is a great diversity of views - from conservative to liberal on all issues including those related to India - while in India everyone seems to have a single view on at least the issue of Pakistan. I dont know what your comments are based on, but you are entitled to your views.

3. In other words, what you are saying is Pakistanis are all murderers, while Indians merely talk about murdering. You are entitled to your views, even if they have no connection to reality.

I appreciate your voicing your views in a civilized manner, even though I consider them to be factually wrong or obviously unrealistic.

Re: # 115-

Yuu`n to Nafratein bhi hain pasheymaa`n Dhaltay dhaltay..
Aankh bhi hai Num..Shaam mein bhi ek..umeed ka Gham..
Raat ka afsaana Chira..Chiraagh bhi sogaye..Pighaltay Pighaltay..

zeemax #113 OK. I remember that, and I guess I did leave off the discussion without explanation (basically ran out of chowk time for the day). You may think I am being ``starry eyed`` when I look at the positives, but surely there are stars as well as dark clouds (which is all that you seem to focus on wrt the issue of Pakistan economy) in the heavens. After all, surely something is going right if the economy has been growing at a good clip (second highest in Asia after China last year!!). :-)

Anyway, to get to the substantive issues you raise:

1. Urbanization: True, the cities are getting overcrowding - the beautiful Rawalpindi of my younger days is now replaced by acres of concrete where there used to be grassy lots, the quiet streets now are teeming. And the movies - I havent been inside a movie theater in Pakistan for years, while in youth these were great places to go to. And ``town planning`` in Pakistan - at least compared to the great job the do in the US, and indeed the great job they did 4000 years ago within Pakistan in Moenjodaro!! - is quite spotty at best in Pakistan. So no arguments on account of the dark clouds.

But look beyond the clouds my friend, and you will see the stars:

Urbanization has long been credited by demographers for reducing fertility rates. This goes all the way back to the 19th century, when the dark Zeemaxian - I mean Malthusian - predictions of overpopulation were countered by the drop in fertility rates in France due to urbanization and growth of Paris in particular. This has since proved true for countries around the world. So that is the good thing - the stars behind the dark clouds that block your vision - behind the drop in fertility rates that took place in Pakistan in the 90`s. This is a structural change that imho will prove vastly more important than the overcrowded streets, lousy movie theaters, and poor town planning that you rightly point to.

2. Rural Areas Agreed that much more can be done. Again, in trying to understand the structural issues, we have dark clouds (notably, jageerdari) as well as stars (emphasis on education past few years, as well as a path out via migration to cities and abroad). But agreed, life is not easy in rural areas for most people.

3. Prescriptions I beg to differ with your solution (``build rural roads``), not because it is wrong but because it is too simplistic. And this is an area where in fact much is being done (within the resources available) - thus, rural infrastructure investments are taking place as part of the micro-credit operations (this two-pronged approach to micro-credit being a Pakistani innovation, btw, which borrowed the micro-credit concept from Bangladesh and added rural infrastructure investments to it).

So, like I said, cheer up and have some tea to toast the future of the Pakistan economy. :-)

Wash Basin

A Sardarji goes to a hotel and eats heartily. After eating he goes to wash his hands but starts washing the basin instead. The manager comes running and asks him, ``Prahji, aap kya kar rahe ho?`` To this the man replies, ``Oye, tumne hi to idhar board lagaya hai ``Wash Basin``

lo gee..ainnee galllaan sunan to baad v..kuch nayi badleya..

Oi naa..
Aqal nahi tey Maujaan Hee Maujaan..

#85 (Further thoughts)

Okay, so I was a bit tough in #46.

But a tough disease calls for some tough love.

Isn`t that what the Pakistani army keeps telling its citizens - my fellow soulmates from those days gone by - again and again?!!!

In fairness, the current crop is no Saddam - and that would be considered an improvement.

But dictatorship is dictatorship.

You see, my dear, I have this ``thing`` for dictators!

#85 Kaptain sahib
[Re: # 46-venting anger is OK..but saying something with a presumption..that everyone would accept is little bit more than hallucination..]

“Jo kahee gayi na mujhse
Wo zamaana keh raha hai
Ke fasaana ban gayi hai
Meri baat chalte chalte….”