Pak Armed Forces vs. Pakistan

@the-one-who-has-profound-knowledge-of-Pakistan-history-and-its-founding-leaders..

you should recede your nationality and pose like palestinians..indeed they have tasted the flavour of freedom..cashing in billions..in aid..all over the world..

slavery for them..is blank cheque..freedom is toiling hard..who would do that..jab Aam key Aam Gutliyoan key daam..mil rahay hoan..toah ek aadhee bakree wakree mar bhi jaaye to kya jaata hai..

Jews are bad, Danes are bad, and we have protests and KFC burnings on weekly basis, but rarely do we see protests against the Army since Bhutto toppled Ayub’s dictatorship. Once in a while a little dance on the streets of Peshawar or somewhere in Baluchistan is not going to change the status quo. When a nation is founded on the flimsy grounds, this is exactly the kinda garbage one gets. Now everyone can have their Islam, smoke Hooka, and smile. You made your bed, now sleep on it.

#31 by tahmed32, writes <<< masadi #29 what!! the dead mule speaks!! surely it is an omen from the gods!! ha! ha! >>>

Soon the CIA or whatever other criminal agency of the US elite has hired you to spew baseless propaganda and happy tales about the US is going to fire your a$$ since you`re doing a pi$$ poor job of defending their lies. You`re falling face down in the mud every attempt you make to defend their inhumanity.

#34 by kulharee <<< You made your bed, now sleep on it. >>>

So why don`t the hell you get your f`,ing nonsense out of our affairs and let us handle it, and take your `occupation force` with you.

Re: # 35

Listen you joker, what is ‘our affairs` mean?

Indian military and Indian politician helped Pakistani awam once in 1971.
Invite them back to save once again, only they can save you from clutches of
your army.

Alright - the real mullah and the closet mullha are now joining forces agains the hinuds..... So all you evil Hinuds out there trying to abuse the pakis - be careful.... the mullah brigrade is on to you now :))

#36 Kulharee <<< Listen you joker, what is ‘our affairs` mean? >>>

It means, `make a quick exit through the door and don`t let it hit your a$$ on your way out`.

Re: # 27 urstruly
[....I`ve posted is actually an ode to Pak Army...]

How the f*** would we know - can`t you write in english instead of the those wiggly crap?...

paki army is carpet bombing fellow-muslims - and you are singing ode to them... very nice - what`s next - lick their boots?..... man you are loosing it.....

Re: # 39

Masadi, wishful thinking. Do you really think that you are Khalifatulmomaneed? You really think that I give an ef about what you wish? Did you take your head out of where I told you to?

comrade masadi: You better not diss the paki military...They will, in their words, `pay a little money to some black guys in New York` and get you killed..


A Heroine Walking in the Shadow of Death

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

When I met Mukhtar Mai here two years ago, she was at her wits` end. Her campaign to fight rape and illiteracy had run out of money, and she was selling family possessions to keep her schools operating.

Now so much has changed. Mukhtar, who also goes by the name Mukhtaran Bibi, has become an international celebrity. Her autobiography is the No. 3 best seller in France and is coming out this fall in the U.S., movies are being made about her, and she has been praised by dignitaries like Laura Bush and the French foreign minister.

But Mr. Musharraf seems to feel that Mukhtar is casting a spotlight on Pakistan`s dark side, so he is leading an effort to bully her into silence.

The authorities confiscate Mukhtar`s mail and feed vicious propaganda to sympathetic journalists, portraying her as a liar, a cheat and an unpatriotic dupe of India (and of me).

The threats have come from high up. Brig. Ijaz Shah, a buddy of President Musharraf`s, traveled to Lahore in December to deliver a personal warning. He met Dr. Amna Buttar, an American citizen who has interpreted for Mukhtar in the U.S. and heads a Pakistani-American human rights organization that is supporting her (www.4anaa.org).

According to Dr. Buttar, Mr. Shah started by defending the president`s record on women`s rights. But then, alluding to a planned visit by Mukhtar to New York, he added: ``We can do anything. We can just pay a little money to some black guys in New York and get people killed there.``

That`s right. The racism is the least of it: one of President Musharraf`s closest aides was warning that unless Mukhtar piped down, the government of Pakistan might murder her and her American interpreter on the streets of New York. I asked the Pakistani government why it would do that, and Mr. Shah sent me a statement acknowledging that he had met with Dr. Buttar, but he said it had been a social visit and denied that he had threatened to kill anyone. ``The allegations to this effect are baseless,`` he said.

This is just another rant type article with no substance.

I would like to point people to an article by Feroz on this site some two years ago where we had a thourough discussion about the Pak army. I will repost some of my posts on that article here for people to understand the issue.

Feroz’s article

Here is my first post on that board. I have a few more and will repost them here as it is worthwhile to revisit that debate to understand the Pak army and some ideas about what future holds for Pakistan. After two years all those posts are still relevant.

#40 by HP on July 23, 2004 12:31pm PT

“if the politicians in Pakistan are capable of resisting the politics of divide and conquer as practiced by the military and are able to resist the seduction which political power promises. If the politicians of Pakistan can over come this flaw in their characters and are able to ignore the charms of political power and they can unite, they will be able to convince the military of the errors of its owns ways and make the military leave Pakistani politics on its own accord.” -F R Khan

Again and again political commentators reach the same conclusion that the civilian politicians have to mend their ways to make the army go back to the barracks. This is sort of reverse engineering and ignores the realities that exist in Pakistani political scene. In fact, if we continue this line of argument then we will continue to blame the politicians for all of Pakistan’s system problems.

Before that, we need to see what is the ultimate goal? Is it unfettered democracy a la India or a change from the current army rule to half way decent democracy? The pure solution to democracy vs. the army rule has gone down the drain in Pakistan a long time ago. The politicians a long time ago acknowledged that they may have to find some workable partnership agreements with the army to take part in governing Pakistan - Yes! The idea of serving Pakistan is still alien to both the army and the politicians in Pakistan. This realization makes whole lot sense for politicians and the army to work with each other in governance rather than serving.

Sometime in the 50s and 60s two most ideological parties in Pakistan i.e. JI and the communist party reached the same conclusion when they looked at their future goals in Pakistan Politics. JI concluded that it cannot be a part of the establishment until it finds a way to work with the army. The Communist Party also theorized that there is no way for it to get to the power w/o working with the army. (Both concluded that popular vote will never help them.) The JI worked towards getting influence in the army and the communist Party looking at its core political philosophy and the appeal, felt that it does not have enough to share with the army and the CP decided to play the nationalist card that was the next best thing it could do to get a foothold in Pakistani politics and opposed the army in whatever way possible. The CP actively supported and created ideological grounds for the small provinces and East Pakistan Nationalists. In the East Pakistan the card worked, as the circumstances for a West Pakistan type army control were not there. The Army ended up giving up power in East Pakistan by getting rid of the main power contender nationality from Pakistan.

In the current Pakistan, the politicians outside of the JI and the CP also have finally come to the same conclusion especially after what they saw in 1979. So any wishful thinking that Pakistani politicians would mend their ways to sort of create a united front against the army is dead before it even takes off.

The conclusion that the politicians have to charm their way defies all logical and rational political thinking. You don’t charm the army. Either you play hardball with it or work with it. The logical course for the current group of politicians in Pakistan is to work with the army. Pakistani politicians are not ideologues or dreamers like some here are. Politicians look for the share in power now rather then unfettered right to rule sometime in the unforeseeable future.

We also need to pay attention to the grooming of politicians in Pakistan. They are not aware of any other model and like most of the Pakistanis are not fully familiar with the nuance of democracy in India or any other western country.

So otherwise a very good article reaches some conclusions that are beyond sanity and logic. (refers to Feroz`s article and not this one.)

So many conditions have to mature at the same time to force the army in Pakistan to give up its overt and covert power that it is well nigh impossible to even think about it in the next 20 to 30 years. The course that would eventually work would be to create conditions for the army to clash with the nationalist forces in the smaller provinces in a violent way especially in Sindh and in Balochistan. That would create conditions for yet another international intervention in Pakistan and separation of a few more units of Pakistan from the secure political base of the army. Hopes of complete democracy in the current Pakistan are not tenable but chances of having democracy in smaller units of Pakistan look intense like it happened in East Pakistan. The incentive to clash with the army would come from some strong counter argument like nationalism etc. A mere democrat or liberal approach does not provide enough motivation to pick up bones with a superior and armed state power. We saw that in India when strong Indian nationalism forced the Brits to leave and in fact that was the only model against all colonial powers that was favored by politicians of the colonized countries. It worked in East Pakistan!

pak needs strong defence because our parosees are scumbags who are spending US$20bn on defence while their women are forced to eat rats for survival:

and check out what happened to her when she was supposed to come to america:

http://www.newkerala.com/news2.php?action=fullnews&id=17953

Dalit woman issue rocks Bihar assembly

Patna: The Bihar assembly Tuesday witnessed noisy scenes over the issue of a poor and illiterate dalit woman who could not attend a UN seminar in New York as she did not receive her passport in time, forcing Chief Minister Nitish Kumar to make a statement.

...RJD had announced Monday it would take the issue to the people to ``expose the government`s approach towards woman and dalits.

...The middle-aged woman, from the community of Musahars that is known to eat rats for survival.

There are about 1.3 million Musahars in Bihar.

Here is another one....

#63 by HP on July 25, 2004 7:38am PT
#46 by ferozk

“cooperation with the army is better than confrontation, then would it not be better to formalize such an arrangement within Pakistani politics?” –Ferozk

I hope you are not suggesting that both parties sit down and sign on some dotted lines:)

Eventually they would get to some resolution and that will be part of the constitution. I suggest that you take a careful look at the struggle for constitution starting from 1970 and changes in the constitution by both civilians and the army from 1973 onward to get a feel of what give and take has taken place between the two parties. You will see that the civilians are always trying to cooperate with the army.
Here is my take-

The gut feeling of politicians in Pakistan is to work with the army and share power as civilian just don’t have enough muscle to force the army. This cooperation issue was not a factor before the 1970 elections. The central dispute between the army and Mujib was the role of the army in Pakistan. The army was rightfully fearful that with the moving of the capital to Dacca, it will lose the influence to control the country. Mujib felt that by becoming a prime minister in Islamabad, he would always be under the army pressure and with Punjabi bureaucracy and Punjabi army, he did not see any hope for Bengalis in Islamabad. The fear of backlash led both parties to armed conflict instead of a mutual political agreement as proposed in the 6 points by Mujib.

ZAB had to also deal with this issue immediately after he took over. ZAB came to power thru a coup and not on the strength of his political power. He also was the first civilian in Pakistan to actually engineer another coup that brought Gen. Tikka Khan by removing Gen. Gul Hassan. ZAB was aware that he can only remain in power until the army is behind him. As soon as Gen. Tikka Khan retired, the wind switched direction and soon ZAB was on the street and later on gallows.

This quick background would help to understand that the politicians know that they have to work with the army but the issue is: On whose terms?

1. Mujib tried to work with the army on his terms. The army favored the separation and refused Mujib’s terms for sharing power.

2. ZAB presented the second solution when he tired to plant his own man as the COAS and he also added death clause in the constitution to deter ambition. The army still finds that clause an albatross.

Now ZAB and Mujib were the most powerful politicians of Pakistan. One was given a country and the other was executed.

3. NS attempted the Bhutto solution again when he first removed Karamat and in 1999 when he attempted to remove Musharaf. He also amended constitution to change the rules on the army.

Neither NS nor ZAB ever tried to wound or structurally damage the army even though there were at least two good opportunities to do that. They attempted to find a workable solution.

Every time politicians attempt to make the rules fair, the army attempts to change them in its favor. The army is now so fearful of the politicians that it finds it hard to work with a benign politician like Jamali and would rather have a non political person at the most political position in Pakistan.

The army seeks obedience and not cooperation and that is the crux of the matter.
Until the army is ready for the cooperation, the confrontation between the two will continue despite attempts by the civilians to find a workable solution.

I owe you reply on smaller province nationalism and the extra constitution solution.

The baby is called dictatorship.

Jinnah conceived the baby! The very first dictator! He huffed, and he puffed, and he brought the house down! “If I can’t have it all my way – why, I will have it all my way on a rump!”

He died at childbirth – perhaps realizing what a monster he had exuded!

The pygmies that followed him had trouble distinguishing one end from the other. They tried to hold it every which way – mostly upside down! Act Zulfikar was a miniature replay of Act Jinnah. “If I can’t have it all my way – why, I will have it all my way on a rump!”

The khakis nurtured it so that – off its blood – they can “live” forever, like vampires!

The beards (the overt and the closeted) are the khaki’s little minions.

The chowk pusher hate-pots and their likes are simple two-bit wannabes – they are neither here nor there!

There is little reason to show sensitivity to people who have taken a vow to eschew the simplest of common sense! And continue to do so – till this day!

Therefore, go ahead – taste that yellow liquid gold to its full flavor! It does wonders for that green taint of your skin!

This baby is all yours! Cradle it in your arms – let it kiss you all over – let it suck you all over – give it your milk, your blood, your very essence!

Your very souls – if you still got any left!

Let the pains begin!

I wrote this two years ago and how close I was in predicting a clash with the nationalists.... read it..

``The course that would eventually work would be to create conditions for the army to clash with the nationalist forces in the smaller provinces in a violent way especially in Sindh and in Balochistan.That would create conditions for yet another international intervention in Pakistan and separation of a few more units of Pakistan from the secure political base of the army. Hopes of complete democracy in the current Pakistan are not tenable but chances of having democracy in smaller units of Pakistan look intense like it happened in East Pakistan. The incentive to clash with the army would come from some strong counter argument like nationalism etc. A mere democrat or liberal approach does not provide enough motivation to pick up bones with a superior and armed state power.``

A few things have definately changed since then...

Foreign intervention is not possible but international pressure for democracy would increase.

#44 by faisaluno on April 4, 2006 8:31am PT

liberace...mushy says every second paki women thinks getting herself raped and getting a canadian visa that follows is better than staying in Pakiland..

hear him in his own words..