Remembering Allama Iqbal

#155, nasah:
``Inquirer miaN ``
****I like this calling miaN. It denotes inclusivity rather than position of fighting.****

``your comments remind of my fathers`s anecdote about Bachchan ji the Hindi poet Laureat of India -- my father and Bachan ji were very good friends ``
****Are you from Allahabad? What is your father`s name. Bachchan ji and my father were colleagues and close friends. He, his wife Teji and, of course, then not star Amitabh came to my father`s house often. Amtabh was my younger brother`s class fellow.****

``use of un lyrical ki and ka to connect words -- and its accpetance of inexactly measured dissimilar Qaffias and radeef -- ``
****Of course, Hindi genders of nouns are very local and essentially arbitrary and, of course, the lyrical quality and its appreciation are highly individualistic. Furthermore, one does not have to apply the rules of Urdu poetry to Hindi, actually one should not. The supreme rule of poetry is imagery and its richness, which even covers the atukaant kavitaa of Hindi and even the prose poetry of C. B. Rao, whom I bet you know if you are from Allahabad.****

``any Urdu school teacher could say in two couplets of a Ghazal what takes you to write in two pages of one of your best Hindi poems.``
****The needed length depends on idividual preferences. Excessive brevity is not always most desirable. It can lead to personalized interpretations.****

``in the pure art of poetry itself -- there is no `depth of inconsistency`` or ``political opportunism`` -- it is in politics.... ``
****I never questioned the ``wizardry of words`` and ``phrase smithery`` of Iqbal. Of these qualities, he is a master. But I am disappointed in his ``islamofascism`` and his communalism in the specific context of Hindu-Muslim amity in India. He succeeded in doing what even Aurangzeb had faied to do. I am suspicious about Iqbal being an agent of the British and I would not be surprised if like Jinnah he conspired in the division of India.****

``Iqbal is concerned -- Iqbals ideas may have been flawed but his poetry was flawless -- he was a one of a kind wizard of word and phrase smithery ``
****Agree, however, the character flaw that emanated the fissiparous tendencies is too severe for him to receive any accolades that could mask his overall role in the life of India. Even on this board there are indications that he may be psychotically getting even for the forced conversion of his grandfather, though I believe that this aspect requires a lot of work in research before giving it any weight. Currently, it is best to accept Iqbal on his face value which I think lies in his being a craftsman of words, par excellence, but a divider not uniter of people.****

``you don`t have to be an all time partisan of everything Hindi and Hindu``
****And I am not. I refer to numerrous statements that I have made in this regard at Chowk, generally, but specifically I direct your attention to #152.****

From the translation of Shikwa and Jawab-e-Shikwa quoted by freethinker in #42 and analyzed by me in #86, it seems that Iqbal was a nationalist before going to Germany but there he was converted to fascism which probably has atheistic tendencies and he started questioning the concept of God and the derived Islamic order. He however, upon return to India found it more useful to join forces with Jinnah and the British to vivisect India and Hindu-Muslim amity. Here, his word-wizardry played the active but evil role leading to his speech at Allahabad in 1937. Little did he realize that he would not benefit from the divisive and destructive preachings and he passed away in 1938.
Someone has mentioned on this board that there is a revision of Iqbal underway in the direction of Javed his son in Pakistan. Let us hope that some redeeming features found there would offset the overall negative contribution from Iqbal for South Asians.

Lab pe aati hai dua banke tamanna meri
Zindagi shamma ki surat hau khuda ya meri....

Jaya Shankar Prasad, Maha Devi Varma, Nirala...all absolute greats in their own ways. Each with an exquisite, soaring sense of beauty.

But as an inspirational poet, as the magician whose words could transmute ordinary mud into divine manna, Iqbal had no equals, and has none.

Koshish-i nat`maam

#148 naqashbandi sahib

Why would I need scholars? In my dictionary no one is scholar. All of us with average IQs can research on any topic and can be scholar. I never get impressed with the so, called scholars.

Give me any topic, I will research and will come up with my research or thesis. Now I am scholar. Simple.

Iqbal is palgiarist , fascist, fanatic poet in my eyes.

Now, you will ask me , who am I to quote this for such a great man of the subcontinent?

Yes, I am the greatest scholar of this century. Stamped(Zeena). Period/dated4/17/02.

Re: # 157, zeena:
I fully support your ``khudi!``

Please do not get intimidated by the promoters of Iqbal. Being a good person is more important than being a good poet.

The extraordinary support given to Iqbal by the British was for good reason. The nexus between the British, Jinnah and Iqbal (in order of impotance and significance) can see the light only after the research is complete on the British archival records. Unfortunately - or is it a good fortune? - that Iqbal is now insignificant for the wider life in South Asia and therefore no one would want to peruse on the political trickery that led to India`s vivisection.

I do not know of Baba Khattack but you may want to show how Khattack`s ideas were plagiarized by Iqbal. However, it is to be shown not opined. As a first step you may want to write an article in Leafyglade Inn specifically comparing how Iqbal`s writings are related to Baba Khattack. The next step, which will be harder, is to prove that the plagiarism was intentional and not a question of your interpretation.

Koshish-e natamaam


furquat-e aftaab meiN, Khathee hai paich-O-taab subh
chshme sh`faq hai khooN-fshan akhtar-i shaam kay liyay
Rehtee hai roaz-e Quais ko, Lailaa-i shaam kee havas
akhtar-i sub`h muztarib, taab-o-davaam kay liyay
Kehtaa thha Qutb-i aasmaaN, Quafila-e njoom sey
hamraho meiN taras gaya, taab-e davaam kay liyay
sautoaN ko naddyoN ka shauque, behr ka naddyyoN ko ishque
mauja-e behr ko t`pish, maah-e tamaam kay liyay
Husn-i azal kay pardah-i lalaa-O-gul mein hai nihaaN
Kehtay haiN bayquaraar hai, javaa-i aam kay liyay

raaz-i hayaat poochh lay, Khizr-i khjistaa gaam sey
Zindaa hUr eik cheez hai, koshish-i na-t`maam sey

``The depth of Jaya Shankar Prasad and Maha Devi Varma in Hindi Poetry is no less than Iqbal in any sense except neither of them have the depth of inconsistency, political opportunism or notoriety.``

``Naturally, those who know only urdu do not have the equipment to understand them.``(Inquirer)


wait a minute -- Inquirer miaN -- I read Hindi -- I write Hindi poetry -- I wrote the Hindi-Urdu mixed anthem of my medical college Union that is still being sung on every public occasion.....want to hear a piece of one of my hindi poems -- ok here it is:

bhor bhai pighlaa andhyara -- zulmat pur jeeta ujyara -- poorub meiN ujlee kirno naiN -- GarRa surkh nishan re saathi -- Jaga Hindsutan........:)

your comments remind of my fathers`s anecdote about Bachchan ji the Hindi poet Laureat of India --

my father and Bachan ji were very good friends -- my father used to needle Bachan ji about Hindi`s careless grammar uneven poetic matra and lack of wazan -- and use of un lyrical ki and ka to connect words -- and its accpetance of inexactly measured dissimilar Qaffias and radeef --

he used to tell him that in terms of rigorous technical exactness -- any Urdu school teacher could say in two couplets of a Ghazal what takes you to write in two pages of one of your best Hindi poems. Bachan ji will laugh and laugh and laugh....

btw -- Inquirer do you read Urdu and do you understand Iqbal`s Urdu......?

in the pure art of poetry itself -- there is no `depth of inconsistency`` or ``political opportunism`` -- it is in politics....

....as far Iqbal is concerned -- Iqbals ideas may have been flawed but his poetry was flawless -- he was a one of a kind wizard of word and phrase smithery -- do you know Josh maleehabadi -- even he couldn`t come anywhere near him.....

you don`t have to be an all time partisan of everything Hindi and Hindu.....

Re: # 155, nasah: There are many a point but just this first.

bhor bhai pighlaa andhyara -- zulmat pur jeeta ujyara -- poorub meiN ujlee kirno naiN -- GarRa surkh nishan re saathi -- Jaga Hindsutan........:)

I would write as:

bhor bhai pighlaa andhiaaraa -- zulmat par jeetaa ujiaaraa --
poorub meiN ujlee kirnon naiN -- saaraa sunder jagat dikhaayaa
-- Jaga Hindsutan........:)

Sun`s rays do not go very well with dark sign.

If there are more lines please let us have them.

#152 you write under a false assumption that a ``divider`` is a bad thing in your indictment of iqbal. consider, for some, a rediscovered mard-e-momeen justifies getting back a lost possesion, its all good.

sometime back someone (ferzana ? ) had written that she could not apreciate savarkar poetry due to its fascism irrespective of its poetic quality. i guess you are making that statement as a ``well meaning hindu (LOL)``.

Re: # 153, jang:
Now we are talking. Islam by sword is the life breath of the conspirators, that is what the crusaders concluded twelve hundred years ago.

Let us face it, it is people like you that will lead to armageddon and then whoever has a more superior nuclear weapons will eliminate the opponent.

So what is wrong if Bush, Cheney, and Wolfowitz propose the evaporation of West Asia by a massive preemptive nuclear strike, while the camel drivers are are on their camels.

That will lead to minimized cost of elimination of opponent in the war of civilizations and cultures represented by Christianity and Islam.

So mend thy thinking while there is time!

bjkumar, #106:
``Therefore, of course it must be all the Britishers’ fault! ``
****You need to familiarize yourself with the dynamics of Indian politics during 1925 to 1947. This is the general deficiency of the young generation. Very often they have simplistic solutions of problems. You need to to have basic information on Jinnah`s and Iqbal`s transformations.

Thanks for the unneeded sympathy for my ``pain,`` I feel none of it but as a rational and calm thinker I attempt to study the underlying principles and wish people would have the depth to do the same.****

nasah, #109:
``...but on the other hand the `conversion` was a great linguistic blessing for a malleably expressive language like Urdu that got its greatest poet that ever lived or will ever live....in the entire history of modern subcontinental poetry.......

I doubt Hindi had the wings to keep up with Iqbal’s mercurial soaring intellect……``

****
I, in general agree with your assessment of Iqbal including his personna, poetry and politics. But I would still append, HE WAS A DIVIDER NOT A UNIFIER. He proved to be a communalist. If you are from India then you know it is a big condemnation.

The depth of Jaya Shankar Prasad and Maha Devi Varma in Hindi Poetry is no less than Iqbal in any sense except neither of them have the depth of inconsistency, political opportunism or notoriety. Naturally, those who know only urdu do not have the equipment to understand them.****

ZahraJ, #116:
``On Chowk, majority of the Hindu interactors` scholarship is limited to dissing the significant or insignificant Muslim (with a glorious or humble Hindu/Arab background) characters. That is never going to assist anyone in gaining any understanding, but will definitely propagate the jahalut on board. ``
****Excuse me for making a sweeping a statement. Your analysis of Iqbal and above statement is a typical feminine analysis. Emotions galore, analysis minimal.****

nasah, #121:
``Iqbal`s ``kum naseebi`` was that all his genius of poetic ``Nai-nawazi`` did him NO GOOD -- when he entered the gutters of MIXING Religion with Politics......

in his poetic naivety Iqbal wished if he could produce a Muslim `Murde Momin` -- in the mold of all powerful European Fascist `Superman` -- in other words a kind of an Islamic Mussolini.....that will once again conquer and rule the world from Sumatra to Spain.....for Islam.

in the process Iqbal messed himself up by tearing his Indian and Punjabi roots -- opted for Hijaz and Cordoba instead of Sialkot and Gujranewala -- messed himself politically and messed up his community into Aadha Teetar-Aadhi Batair Muslims -- jo ghar kay nu rahay ghat kay ........for decades to come.....``

****I agree.****

Re: # 150

When the writing is on the wall, only an idiot will like to over analyze. You are certainly entitled to your right.

As a well meaning Hindu, you may have your own twist to Iqbal`s leanings. You may know more about the psyche that many of us do not know. Why don`t you share?

Re: # 151, ZahraJ:
Before I respond to your statements it is necessary to achieve common definition of concepts. Victor Hugo once said - before a serious discussion we have to agree on definitions.
``writing is on the wall``: Do we unquestioningly accept what is propagandized? My answer is, no.
``idiot will like to over analyze`` : An idiot can not analyze. Analysis without grounding is vaporous rigmarole.
``a well meaning Hindu``: Thanks for presuming that.
``twist to Iqbal`s leanings``: Various points should not be characterized as twists, i.e., if there is any desire to understand.
``Why don`t you share?``: I will refer to the comments that have already been made - I will restrict myself mostly to my comments.

#10, People who are informed about the trials and tribulations that he went through should shed light on the salient features.

#86, The points raised there should be critically examined. So that an understanding can be developed between the Hindu and Muslim interactors. Ultimate question is: Did Iqbal have political instigations and motivations in theorizing the division of India? Additionally, why did he undergo transformation from your quotation in #45?

#1, #72, In view of these comments should we reassess the role of Iqbal in promoting goodwill/disintegrating Indians - communalizing them? Was he a real Hitlerite nazi clothed as a great poet? Even if he were so, we can admire his poetic skill but should we regard him as an ideal role model?

Of course there are many other issues but let the above suffice. You may ask why should we do all this? The answer lies in indicating why are we interacting? For me Chowk can be a small step in developing a stepwise understanding between alienated Indians - past and present. Let us isolate the traumatic experiences that transformed Iqbal from a unifier to a divider. May be then we can begin to ideate what we need to overcome and may be our next generations will rectify our follies.

#121 nasah

Nice of summary of the guy. Reminds me of Sarvarkar and, in recent times, VS Naipaul.

Brilliant people but for personal or other reasons not able to rise beyond personal prejudice or other influences. Fascism and strong-men were very popular the 30s including throughout the so-called democratic countries.

Zeena> Let me be blunt: Can you please give a list of Iqbal scholars from anywhere in the world--no, just give me the name of ONE such scholar--who subscribes to your theory.
Thank you.
Asif

It should work:

Masjid-i-Qurtuba