Remembering Allama Iqbal

``I am strongly against this ummah concept, there is some clear-cut poetry that tries to bring the ummah together.``
****I do not even know what ummah is other than the interaction I have had with you in this board. It seems that it is a pan-ethnic effort to organize Muslims against all other religions. If this is correct, it is a totally absurd and suicidal. The prostitution of poetry to that end will result in the decline of the language that has that kind of poetry.****

``It`s horrible to use ummah-centric poetry to wage jehad or destruction in the world. ``

****I have already indicated my agreement above.****

As for my expectations from you: I assumed that being a Muslim you might have greater knowledge of the fall of Iqbal, particularly in view of #45. Of course, it is perfectly OK to not worry about that aspect of Iqbal`s life. As I have clearly stated in #194, my objectives are two: Firstly, if Iqbal has fabricated interesting thoughts, I would like to enjoy them. Secondly, I would like to promote South Asia.

Naqshbandi sahib:

I missed your post completely. here is Iqbal on Khushhaal Khan.

It is called the : Last Will of Khushhaal Khan Khataak. Very Powerful indeed!

Inquirer -

I do not know if you ever watched the documentary by Discovery Times on Pakistan and the Nuclear Jehad. If you didn`t then do care to look into it. In addition to that, there are a few others that will be aired sometime in May. The documentary was excellently done. It was thought provoking, but kind of sad. When you watch the documentary in light of some couplets by Iqbal, there are issues. And the issues are mostly around the interpretation.

The very thought about...

~Millat Kae Saath Rabtae Ustavaa`r Rakh
Pae`vastaa Reh Shajar Sae Umeedae` Bahar Rakh

What if that millat believes in going for a mad Jehad? What if that millat believes in launching taliban style government in NWFP and the rest of the provinces? What if that millat continues to tear down any posters with the pictures of women, music, poetry and prose? What if that millat does not believe in giving women equal rights and roles? These were some of the important issues that were brought up in the documentary led by a female Pakistani journalist/documentary specialist. I have forgotten the woman`s name. Her tour to NWFP and some areas where the guns and other stuff is made and sold to anyone who can pay was an eye opener and of immense concern.

Iqbal died in 1938. Today is his 68th death anniversary. To tell you the truth, I did not even remember that he never got to see the results of his ideologues. I think his focus on millat/ummah was the result of what was happening during the pre-partition days. As a Muslim, he had certain expectations from his fellow Muslims. And he wanted the Muslims to be at a certain level of perfection, class and goodness. Like any other poet, his poetry kind of led us to believe in those images. Those images could be of belief, hope, concern for the youth, love, knowledge and hundreds of other areas.

Following are a few beautiful examples:

Na Ho Nau`meed, Nau`meedi Zavalae` Ilm`o`Irfaan Hae
Umeed Murdae` Momin hae Khuda kae Raaz`danoan Mae

Tae`rae Sofae` Haen Afrangi, Tae`rae Kaleen Irani
Lahoo Mujh Ko Rulati Hae Javanoan Kee Tun Asaani

In my view, in today`s day and age that much focus on millat/ummah is not healthy for the Muslims. This focus on ummah will isolate the Muslims from the rest of the world. It will always be us vs. them. And that`s where some of his couplets can be misread or misinterpreted.

On the other end, Jawahra brought up an interesting point on Ummah in one of her interacts under her article on FGM. Among Muslims(I cannot say about others), the concept, pupose and evolution of Ummah is debatable and needs more intellectual discussion to either have a consensus or a better understanding.

Just like nuclear technology, poetry and religion can be used or abused to achieve certain objectives. Ironically, those objective do not need to be in compliance with human well being.

Re: # 193, ZahraJ:
Due to a hectic weekend, I am replying now.

You probably have had epiphanies in your write-ups and I do not know enough Urdu to fully respond to the couplets quoted by you.

One thing is clear that you have pain due to ``misuse`` of Iqbal by the wicked in ummah. That is most likely to be true, i.e., Iqbal may have been deliberately misunderstood and exploited for the politicians` purposes. However, my pain is more fundamental because I feel that he was exploited by the British politicians and he, himself, fell victim to the clever ruses and fate. I grant him his fate but I want to learn and identify the unfortunate circumstances which moved him from the content of your comment in #45 to the divider he himself became. Forget the petty and obviously exploitative politicians.

So what are we to do? My compromise is that I enjoy the literature but discard the social philosophy of Iqbal, particularly in the context of the United South Asia. I am not naa-ummiid about the return of sane conditions that would obviate the division/partition. Yes, such of my generation may not live to see the change but while we are there we will strengthen understanding and toleration and try to make do with - what I believe - are petty quarrels. Vo subah kabhii to aayegii.

India has adopted the path of reconciliation by accepting the Mulims in India and giving them same fundamental rights as any other Indian irrespective of the Iqbal`s ``two nations theory`` and the achivement of the fruit thereof by Jinnah. My fond hope is that the new generations of South Asians will abrogate the illusion that was engendered by International Politics and the local promoters of dstrust among the people (period).

Finally, I urge you to pursue your epiphany/reevalution of the deluding concepts of ummah/millat or whatever that leads to systematic division of people(period). I would enjoy the pursuit if you are willing to undergo the labor of a Chowk article.

Re: # 194

I am not sure if you got my drift. I am strongly against this ummah concept, but there is some clear-cut poetry that tries to bring the ummah together. It is great to bring any community together when you have a constructive goal on the horizon. It`s horrible to use ummah-centric poetry to wage jehad or destruction in the world. Unfortunately, there is more emphasis on the latter vs. the former. Beyond that, this subject area is of least interest to me. My lack of interest should not hold you back from discussing or analyzing this subject area. I am sure there are many on Chowk (excluding me) who would love to comment on your discoveries in this context.

A good article from Muslim POV, but the interacts were just fantastic.

ZehraJ #189: Just a simple ` very sweet` can not be good as `Spanish can be very, very, very, very, very sweet`.

So Inquirer failed to make the grade, but you were encouraging him to be confident like you.
Do you have epiphanies all by yourself or do you use help, Spanish or otherwise?

Re: # 190, mannyd:

You must be trying to be Spanish!!

jang bhai:
it is a misfortune that for last 500 600 years there have been a long line of crazies after crazies being produced in the muslim world. today`s disillusionment and intellectual vacuum is not really the fault of this generation but such `intellectual giants` like imam ghazali, shariati, ibne banna, iqbal, mohammad ali johar etc. etc. there is a reason that you wont find any scholarly work or historical precedence (in mainstream-islam) pertaining to the off the cuff reinterpretation theories being espoused by every x,y,z today.
the reason being that there is noone in these Islamic greats who could have predicted what was in store for ``islam the next generation``.

#185.. regarding the best muslim philosopher..that is so derogatory..its kinda like the best african-american physicist.

i dont know but for many of us claiming one poetry to be greater than other is a tough call. for some its all good and for most its all goblygook, unless it by anand bakshi and is set to music by s.d. burman.

i dont get poetry, much less urdu poetry. if iqbal is an epitome of modern ``islamic`` philosophy, can you name 4 other peers who were #2, 3, 4 and 5? or was he #1 and the only one? its all very confusing for some of us philistines.

I give up. I hope zeemax figures out the logic of ZahraJ. I am out of this thread!

Re: # 183

Well-meaning hindu: That`s it ?

Bye Bye (*waves*)

Inquirer -

You are annoying! Do you mind looking up ``religion`` and ``religious``? You are asking about Iqbal`s sects and then associating that with being religious or irreligious. I think you are losing your mind. And I am glad that you finally exposed your thoughts in #179. It must have been too much pressure on you to hold back your perspectices for that long :)

There was a lack of interest in your analysis of Shikwa due to your confusion about some basic concepts of religion. Oh, I forgot the religious men are supposed to be confused and out of their minds. Obviously, when you can confuse ummah with maulvis and stuff then it is hard to even expect that you can comprehend Shikwa in its right context. Be nice to yourself :)

Zahra

I may appear iconoclastic when I highlight the deficiencies in Iqbal`s socio-political activities but that does not mean I underestimate his poetry.

Galib was far greater poet and thinker than Iqbal and, in addition, he was far, far greater human being. Possibly because he did not have the converted`s pressure to ingratiate himself.

What is needed, is to throw light on all aspects of Iqbal`s life so that a balanced appraisal can be developed. Also, the extraordinary recognition of Iqbal by the British in the context of India`s Freedom Movement is highly suspect.


Why is it that my analysis of Shikwa has remained unanswered? I do not mind if someone can validly correct it.

Aside to ZahraJ: Religion may not be important to you but to men it is important. It does provide an important parameter of character of the population as is proved by the activities going on in Pakistan today. May be Iqbal had wahhabi sympathies.

kal

No discussion of Iqbal can be complete without this simple classic:

Tehni peu kisi shajar ki tanha
Bulbul tha koi udas betha

Kehta tha key raat sar pey aayi
Urhney, chugney mein din guzara

Puhnchoon kiss tarah aasshian tak
Har cheez pey chha gaya undhera

Sun kay bulbul ki aa`ho`zaari
Jugnu ek paas hi sey bola

Hazir hoon madad ko jan`o`dil sey
Keerha hoon agarche` mein zara sa

Kya hua gar raat hai undheri
Mein rah mein roshni karoon gaa

Hain loag wuhi jahan mein achhay
Aatay hein jo kaam dusron kay

Re: # 178

Zeemax:

It took you very long to put this in black and white :) Thank you for the sweet and simple classic. Are you sure there was no hidden reference to hindus and muslims here? :)

Naqshabandi

Iqbal was a winner. He remains unsurpassed and unchallenged as Modern Islam`s greatest social philosopher and thinker.

Great men arouse great passions. Great dividers doubly so. There`s no reason to believe that Iqbal would not have been perfectly satisfied with the whirl of conflicting passions surrounding him. The magnitude of people`s emotional divergence is one, perhaps the, measure of success.

Dear nasah: #155

Thanks for your perceptive and accurate observation in the following words:

``as far Iqbal is concerned -- Iqbals ideas may have been flawed but his poetry was flawless -- he was a one of a kind wizard of word and phrase smithery -- do you know Josh maleehabadi -- even he couldn`t come anywhere near him..... ``

One needs to read Iqbal`s poetry and understand it before one comments on it ``appreicativey or depreciatively.``

``Diya mujh ko kuchh dard aisa keh sub kuchh dey diya goya
Likha Kilk-e-Azal ney mujh ko teray nauh-a-khwano`n mein``

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 173

[Iqbals ideas may have been flawed but his poetry was flawless ]

This is a loaded statement. I partially agree with it. I am curious about the ``ideas may have been flawed`` part. Would you please care to elaborate?

I have never completely agreed with your take on any aspect, but that does not make your approach flawed. It`s just that your approach may be based on your experiences, observations and vision of life.

Was Iqbal Shia or Sunni?

Re: # 172: I will reply to my own question by the following quote from a Lahori:

``Dr. Muhammad Iqbal`s Statement re the Qadianis:
by Maulana Muhammad Ali

[Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal, who was once a great admirer of the Ahmadiyyah Movement, issued in 1936 a long statement re the Qadianis. It was motivated mainly by political reasons and the views of the extremist Qadiani section were made the basis of this statement. Maulana Muhammad `Ali replied to it and explained the Lahore Ahmadiyyah standpoint and threw light on the correct beliefs and mission of the Founder of the Ahmadiyyah Movement in Islam The reply first appeared in the weekly Light, Lahore, and later in the form of a booklet entitled Dr Sir Muhammad Iqbal`s Statement re the Qadianis. Another detailed commentary was made in Urdu by Syed Akhtar Husain Gilani entitled `Allama Iqbal aur Tahrik-i Ahmadiiyat. -- Editor]``

My conclusion from this is that in order to serve the dominant group of Muslim League headed for the division of India, Iqbal abandoned the Ahmadiyyas to whom his father once belonged.

This is the end of my interest in Iqbal`s politics.

Re: # 172

Man, what an analytical question! :) I am so impressed by the *rare* male intellect. I hope the family tree you are drawing leads to the right branches :D

Good luck!

75% of Iqbal`s work is in Farsi. Dr. Khatami financed an entire project for Iqbal Academy when he was reminded that Iqbal is more of Iranians than of Pakistan.

The dream of iqbal`s ideas is in the Islamic republic of Iran; pakistan his nightmare.

Long ago he envisaged Tehran instead of Geneva , as the Seat of League of Muslim-Nations.

`` Tehran ho gar aalUm-e-mashrique kaa Geneva
Mumkin hai kay Insaan kee taqdeer bdal jaaey

---

Two folk-tales, One poem by Iqbal Lahori: as reported by the Irani aashiques of Allama Iqbal




1)The tale of the bugle-trader:

2)Translation from a farsi poem of Iqbal;

3)The tale of a Stupid Sufi;

The tale of the bugle-trader

In the past, public baths used to have bugles and horns. In order to announce that the hot water bath had opened the owners blew the bugles an hour before dawn.

One day the bugle of a bath went missing or was out of order. To meet this emergency, the owner purchased a new bugle at a very high price and did his job. He paid ten times the cost to meet the situation.

The same day a foreigner arrived in the city. When he saw that there a thing costing one rial could be sold for ten rials he became very happy. He decided to purchase many bugles for sale there at a handsome profit. He did so accordingly and spread his merchandise in the big city square. He had thought that people would rush to buy his bugles but no one came to him despite a very long wait.

By chance, an old wealthy businessman with a walking stick in hand passed by him and asked him the reason of bringing in so many bugles and horns there. The poor man told him about his idea. The wise trader was astonished to see the folly of that person and said, “But did not you see that there are only two baths in this city? What was the use of importing so many bugles? Anyway, in order to help you, tomorrow I will perform a trick so that all your bugles sell out within a week.”

“What will you do?” the man asked.

The trader told him, “You have nothing to do with it. Just know that the people of this city are great imitators and they seldom think over anything. I will take benefit of their weakness in your favor.”

He borrowed a bugle from the seller and asked his servant to keep it in his house. Early next morning that old trader went around the town on his business rounds. But instead of a stick he was holding a bugle in his hand and making use of it as if it were a stick. This gesture of his attracted the people’s attention. They began to murmur that, perhaps, such strange gestures are the causes of the success of this successful trader. Others supported this thought.

Now there was a sensation in this ‘city of blind followers’. Everybody left his or her work and rushed to purchase a bugle and all the bugles were sold out within no time. Then the old trader met the foreigner to ascertain his reaction. When he learnt that all bugles were sold out he advised him to leave the city as soon as possible because the following day the situation was going to be different.

The next morning the old trader with a bent waist went around the city with his usual supporting stick instead of the bugle. People repented over their folly and understood that they had followed him quite blindly and that neither the stick was the cause of success nor the bugle.

In the words of Rumi:

Imitating them has ruined me.
A thousand damnations on such imitation.

Just as it is essential for an individual to carve his own path and polish his personality so it is necessary for a successful society to proceed on new highways and never beat the old paths blindly. Otherwise a society cannot prosper.

Some ignorant people of our society are under the impression, (due to misguiding propaganda) that the secret of success in the field of industry attained by the west is due to their distance from religion and morality. They imagine that the reason of west’s superiority over the east is due to dancing, singing and the nudity of their women. Owing to their sense of inferiority some such people want to become like the westerners by copying their dress and adopting their attires. They fail to understand that it is the style of an industrialized society.

The foundation of their progress is knowledge and research. The base of their civilization is that they are not subservient to any super power. They are standing on their own feet as independent nations and are constantly occupied in scientific research.


A farsi poem of Iqbal: paraphrased translation

The blind imitation of the west makes the east forget its position.
In fact the eastern nations should have criticized the dancing of veil-less women.
The strength of the west is neither owing to the colorful faces of girls nor due to their bare legs.
Nor it has sprung from their haircut.
The stability of the west is also not Latin script.
There is no relation between power, hat, suit and Latin script.
Eastern headdress never comes in the way of science and literature.


The strength of the Firangis is due to science and industry.
Their lamp is burning with the knowledge and industry.

O witty and senseless youth!
You must concentrate on knowledge not on the dress of the westerners.
The path of progress requires nothing except an eye for knowledge.
This or that kind of a cap or a hat has nothing to do with progress.
It is enough if you want to be knowledgeable and intelligent.
It is enough if you have an appetite for knowledge and an enthusiasm for it.



The societies, which are wonderstruck and awed by the west take refuge under their hats and suits instead of breaking the hands of oppressive super powers and instead of lighting up their own paths of life with the lamps of knowledge.

Unless a community has its own educational and economic system it cannot make any important advance.
.

It is said that a leader of an area called ‘Fiji’ was once traveling through a mountainous terrain. A group of men was also following him. By chance the leader fell down. Seeing this all the followers also threw themselves on the ground. Only one man remained standing. He criticized all others for this unwise imitation.

You will be surprised to know that all the people criticized that person asking him whether he knew better than the leader?

Our great Divine Book the Holy Quran has bitterly criticized blind following and reliance on others.

The tale of a Stupid Sufi

Many dervishes lived in a Khanqah (convent). They were all penniless. Per chance another dervish came there in the course of his journey back home. He entrusted his donkey to the watchman of the monastery and entered therein intending to pass the night with the resident saints.

The hungry saints were pleased to see the newcomer. They held a meeting and hatched a plot, justifying in the following manner: “As the dervishes of this Khanqah are half-dead due to hunger and as Islam allows eating of a dead corpse too in such hard times, it would be permissible to sell out the donkey of this new dervish.”

All agreed to this and they sold out the ass of that newcomer without his knowledge. Then they filled their bellies with food purchased from the price of that donkey. After the feast they also arranged a singing and dancing party. The traveler too joined the group. The singer opened his song with the words: “The ass is gone.’

The drummer beat his drum and cried ‘the ass is gone, the ass is gone’. Everyone in the party sang these words with such zeal and enthusiasm that following them, the newcomer traveler too started clapping and singing, ‘the ass is gone, the ass is gone’.

This repetition of ‘the ass is gone’ continued till dawn. The owner of the ass also sang these words happily with others.

The dervishes vacated the Khanqah next morning and all went away to their homes. The ass-owner came out and asked for his ass from the gatekeeper.

He said, “The hungry dervishes had prepared their food last night by selling out your ass and you too had participated in the feast.”

Then he added, “I was helpless. The Sufis had overpowered me and I was almost dead. You were yourself among them and now you are asking their whereabouts?”

The poor dervish retorted, “Why did you not inform me about this mischief? Now to whom should I complain? Which court shall I approach?”

The watchman responded, “By God! I wanted to inform you but when I entered the Khanqah and saw that you too were taking part in the party and singing ‘the ass is gone, the ass is gone’ more enthusiastically than others, I thought that surely you were aware of the event, otherwise it was not becoming for dervish like you to sing anything without purpose.”

The poor dervish replied, “Seeing that all were singing the song, I also liked it and I too began to sing. Now this is the evil consequence of that blind following. A hundred condemnations on such following. What is the use of blind following people who sold their character for food?

Today the communities, which are awed by the West and become mad of their industrial progress, have lost their identity so badly that, it seems, they never had any civilization and culture and arts and sciences of their own!

People are adopting useless ways of the West and that too in the matter of clothing and manners as if their personality is identified only with these things.

Naqshbandi sahib:

``ZaagoaN kay tassarruf meiN UuquaaboaN kay Nashaiman``.

Quibbling & Squabbling is for the birds--the scavenging kind!. not you!



``Parvaaz hai donoaN kee issee eik jahaaN meiN
Krgus kaa jahaaN aur hai, ShaheeN kaa jahaan aur.``

---

`` kheeraa naa kr sakaa mujhhay, daanish-i jalvaa-e farang
Suurmaa hai mairee aankhh ka, khaak-i madina-o Najaf``

tr: The dazzle of the Farangi intellect just couldn`t hurt my eyes
for the dust from Madina & Najaf, is the Kohl in my eyes

---

Iqbal’s Ideas Not Analyzed

Allama Iqbal Lahori

TEHRAN, April 20--A noted Iranian researcher on the works of Allama Iqbal Lahori said that most of the Iranians and Pakistanis focus on his poetry while in reality he is a philosopher who adopted a versified style to express his thoughts.

Speaking to ILNA on the occasion of Iqbal’s 67th death anniversary, which falls on April 21, Mohammad Baqaei Makan regretted that Allama’s ideas have not yet been analyzed as they deserve by those involved in research on his works, whether in Iran or Pakistan.
Categorizing the trend of research studies on Iqbal’s works into the pre- and post-Revolution periods, he noted that those which were conducted in the former period did not enjoy rich and profound contents.
“The most acclaimed book on Iqbal before the victory of the 1979 Islamic Revolution is ’We and Iqbal’ written by the late Dr. Ali Shariati. This book however does not go very deep into his works compared to those which were published after the Revolution,“ Baqaei said.
He further stated that although some noteworthy research studies have been conducted in Pakistan, as his son Javid Iqbal said ’as much as Iqbal is used for publicity purposes, he has not been a focus of study to be really introduced’.

Baqaei, who was selected as the most industrious researcher on Iqbal’s works at 2003 Lahore International Conference on Allama Iqbal and was awarded the Golden Plaque of Iqbal Studies by Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, described Iqbal as an intellectual with different thoughts that symbolize 12 independent fields.

Few persons can claim to be well-versed in all these fields, he said, adding that one can explore one aspect of Iqbal’s character.

#166 N

[quote]
the greatest Muslim thinker of the past 100 years and certainly the greatest poet.
[quote]

I guess you still dont understand that ``poet`` and ``thinker`` are two fundamentally different things. You can be wonderful poet but have few useful or constructive thoughts about anything else. I think people here admire Iqbal the poet but have many questions about the ``thinker``, especially from a sectarian and political point of view.

Re: # 168, pmishra2:
Aapne to siidhii si baat ko saaf saaf kah diya. Lekin jo log Iqbal ke nashey mein hain unhe to samajh mein aane se rahi.

It is sad to see the vilification of, arguably, the greatest Muslim thinker of the past 100 years and certainly the greatest poet.

But then great men always divide the masses...

Inquirer, nasahji

Iqbal was a wizard of words. Wizards are not always good for lesser individuals who choose to be influenced by them. :(

Nevertheless, there is good purpose behind saluting the man`s wizardry. It helps us understand the nature of his attraction and influence.

Re: # 165:
Hero worship is deserved heroes only.

``Zindagi shamma ki surat hau khuda ya meri....``

My dear Kal -- for your own well being get that beatiful but poisonous verse out of your prayer -- like mine what it will do to you is to make your life a little hellish -- as described by Sahir Hoshiarpuri -- a great Hindu poet of Urdu language:

Zindagi apni sulagtee si chita hai Sahir -- nu to julti hai yeh nu bujh kay dhoowaaN hoti hai

that Iqbal`s `Doa` will make you show other people the light to find THEIR ways -- but it will put YOU on a slow burn all your life.............................:)

Re: # 162

my dear Kal -- that post #162 of mine was in jest --

about that Iqbal`s couplet -- ``Lub pe aati hai dua bun kay tamanna meri -- zindagi shamma ki surat ho Khuda ya meri`` -- what I meant by ``poisonous`` -- is not that the verse is actually poison in the real sense of poison -- but in the poetic sense that if you recite that couplet all the time -- as we used to do in our school days -- God may hear Iqbal`s powerful Doa -- from your lips -- and may grant your wish to be a shama for others -- that is a beacon of light for others -- but in the process of showing the way as a beacon you and your zindagi may have to burn all your life to produce that light --

only metaphorically speaking.......:)

in fact that couplet is one of the masterpieces of Iqbal`s poetry in simplicity yet magnificience of a similie like ``shamma ki surat`` to describe the nobility of the wish to help others...

.... so that verse, I can assure you, is pretty harmless, will never be detrimental to anybody`s health or well being -- that was in pure jest......:)

you are exactly right in saying -- ``there is good purpose behind saluting the man`s wizardry`` -- enjoy Iqbal`s poetry without fear and without prejudice.....and without his politics......as you are doing right now......you`ve great taste, enjoy....

Re: # 162, nasal:
Besides, Shamaa is not a desirable and commendable thing, it turns into ash the hapless parwaane!

Kaalchakra, the Hindu, all urdu shayarii is not good!!


nasah: Is it Sahir Ludhianvi or Hoshiarpuri?

Zindagii ek sulagtii si chitaa hai Sahir,
Shola bantii hai na aur na bujh ke dhuaan hoti hai.
(This is from memory.)

Yes, nasah, that is the summaryof Iqbal overall: ``bea(u)tiful but poisonous.`` You said it all.

#155, nasah:
``Inquirer miaN ``
****I like this calling miaN. It denotes inclusivity rather than position of fighting.****

``your comments remind of my fathers`s anecdote about Bachchan ji the Hindi poet Laureat of India -- my father and Bachan ji were very good friends ``
****Are you from Allahabad? What is your father`s name. Bachchan ji and my father were colleagues and close friends. He, his wife Teji and, of course, then not star Amitabh came to my father`s house often. Amtabh was my younger brother`s class fellow.****

``use of un lyrical ki and ka to connect words -- and its accpetance of inexactly measured dissimilar Qaffias and radeef -- ``
****Of course, Hindi genders of nouns are very local and essentially arbitrary and, of course, the lyrical quality and its appreciation are highly individualistic. Furthermore, one does not have to apply the rules of Urdu poetry to Hindi, actually one should not. The supreme rule of poetry is imagery and its richness, which even covers the atukaant kavitaa of Hindi and even the prose poetry of C. B. Rao, whom I bet you know if you are from Allahabad.****

``any Urdu school teacher could say in two couplets of a Ghazal what takes you to write in two pages of one of your best Hindi poems.``
****The needed length depends on idividual preferences. Excessive brevity is not always most desirable. It can lead to personalized interpretations.****

``in the pure art of poetry itself -- there is no `depth of inconsistency`` or ``political opportunism`` -- it is in politics.... ``
****I never questioned the ``wizardry of words`` and ``phrase smithery`` of Iqbal. Of these qualities, he is a master. But I am disappointed in his ``islamofascism`` and his communalism in the specific context of Hindu-Muslim amity in India. He succeeded in doing what even Aurangzeb had faied to do. I am suspicious about Iqbal being an agent of the British and I would not be surprised if like Jinnah he conspired in the division of India.****

``Iqbal is concerned -- Iqbals ideas may have been flawed but his poetry was flawless -- he was a one of a kind wizard of word and phrase smithery ``
****Agree, however, the character flaw that emanated the fissiparous tendencies is too severe for him to receive any accolades that could mask his overall role in the life of India. Even on this board there are indications that he may be psychotically getting even for the forced conversion of his grandfather, though I believe that this aspect requires a lot of work in research before giving it any weight. Currently, it is best to accept Iqbal on his face value which I think lies in his being a craftsman of words, par excellence, but a divider not uniter of people.****

``you don`t have to be an all time partisan of everything Hindi and Hindu``
****And I am not. I refer to numerrous statements that I have made in this regard at Chowk, generally, but specifically I direct your attention to #152.****

From the translation of Shikwa and Jawab-e-Shikwa quoted by freethinker in #42 and analyzed by me in #86, it seems that Iqbal was a nationalist before going to Germany but there he was converted to fascism which probably has atheistic tendencies and he started questioning the concept of God and the derived Islamic order. He however, upon return to India found it more useful to join forces with Jinnah and the British to vivisect India and Hindu-Muslim amity. Here, his word-wizardry played the active but evil role leading to his speech at Allahabad in 1937. Little did he realize that he would not benefit from the divisive and destructive preachings and he passed away in 1938.
Someone has mentioned on this board that there is a revision of Iqbal underway in the direction of Javed his son in Pakistan. Let us hope that some redeeming features found there would offset the overall negative contribution from Iqbal for South Asians.

Lab pe aati hai dua banke tamanna meri
Zindagi shamma ki surat hau khuda ya meri....

Jaya Shankar Prasad, Maha Devi Varma, Nirala...all absolute greats in their own ways. Each with an exquisite, soaring sense of beauty.

But as an inspirational poet, as the magician whose words could transmute ordinary mud into divine manna, Iqbal had no equals, and has none.

Koshish-i nat`maam

#148 naqashbandi sahib

Why would I need scholars? In my dictionary no one is scholar. All of us with average IQs can research on any topic and can be scholar. I never get impressed with the so, called scholars.

Give me any topic, I will research and will come up with my research or thesis. Now I am scholar. Simple.

Iqbal is palgiarist , fascist, fanatic poet in my eyes.

Now, you will ask me , who am I to quote this for such a great man of the subcontinent?

Yes, I am the greatest scholar of this century. Stamped(Zeena). Period/dated4/17/02.

Re: # 157, zeena:
I fully support your ``khudi!``

Please do not get intimidated by the promoters of Iqbal. Being a good person is more important than being a good poet.

The extraordinary support given to Iqbal by the British was for good reason. The nexus between the British, Jinnah and Iqbal (in order of impotance and significance) can see the light only after the research is complete on the British archival records. Unfortunately - or is it a good fortune? - that Iqbal is now insignificant for the wider life in South Asia and therefore no one would want to peruse on the political trickery that led to India`s vivisection.

I do not know of Baba Khattack but you may want to show how Khattack`s ideas were plagiarized by Iqbal. However, it is to be shown not opined. As a first step you may want to write an article in Leafyglade Inn specifically comparing how Iqbal`s writings are related to Baba Khattack. The next step, which will be harder, is to prove that the plagiarism was intentional and not a question of your interpretation.

Koshish-e natamaam


furquat-e aftaab meiN, Khathee hai paich-O-taab subh
chshme sh`faq hai khooN-fshan akhtar-i shaam kay liyay
Rehtee hai roaz-e Quais ko, Lailaa-i shaam kee havas
akhtar-i sub`h muztarib, taab-o-davaam kay liyay
Kehtaa thha Qutb-i aasmaaN, Quafila-e njoom sey
hamraho meiN taras gaya, taab-e davaam kay liyay
sautoaN ko naddyoN ka shauque, behr ka naddyyoN ko ishque
mauja-e behr ko t`pish, maah-e tamaam kay liyay
Husn-i azal kay pardah-i lalaa-O-gul mein hai nihaaN
Kehtay haiN bayquaraar hai, javaa-i aam kay liyay

raaz-i hayaat poochh lay, Khizr-i khjistaa gaam sey
Zindaa hUr eik cheez hai, koshish-i na-t`maam sey

``The depth of Jaya Shankar Prasad and Maha Devi Varma in Hindi Poetry is no less than Iqbal in any sense except neither of them have the depth of inconsistency, political opportunism or notoriety.``

``Naturally, those who know only urdu do not have the equipment to understand them.``(Inquirer)


wait a minute -- Inquirer miaN -- I read Hindi -- I write Hindi poetry -- I wrote the Hindi-Urdu mixed anthem of my medical college Union that is still being sung on every public occasion.....want to hear a piece of one of my hindi poems -- ok here it is:

bhor bhai pighlaa andhyara -- zulmat pur jeeta ujyara -- poorub meiN ujlee kirno naiN -- GarRa surkh nishan re saathi -- Jaga Hindsutan........:)

your comments remind of my fathers`s anecdote about Bachchan ji the Hindi poet Laureat of India --

my father and Bachan ji were very good friends -- my father used to needle Bachan ji about Hindi`s careless grammar uneven poetic matra and lack of wazan -- and use of un lyrical ki and ka to connect words -- and its accpetance of inexactly measured dissimilar Qaffias and radeef --

he used to tell him that in terms of rigorous technical exactness -- any Urdu school teacher could say in two couplets of a Ghazal what takes you to write in two pages of one of your best Hindi poems. Bachan ji will laugh and laugh and laugh....

btw -- Inquirer do you read Urdu and do you understand Iqbal`s Urdu......?

in the pure art of poetry itself -- there is no `depth of inconsistency`` or ``political opportunism`` -- it is in politics....

....as far Iqbal is concerned -- Iqbals ideas may have been flawed but his poetry was flawless -- he was a one of a kind wizard of word and phrase smithery -- do you know Josh maleehabadi -- even he couldn`t come anywhere near him.....

you don`t have to be an all time partisan of everything Hindi and Hindu.....

Re: # 155, nasah: There are many a point but just this first.

bhor bhai pighlaa andhyara -- zulmat pur jeeta ujyara -- poorub meiN ujlee kirno naiN -- GarRa surkh nishan re saathi -- Jaga Hindsutan........:)

I would write as:

bhor bhai pighlaa andhiaaraa -- zulmat par jeetaa ujiaaraa --
poorub meiN ujlee kirnon naiN -- saaraa sunder jagat dikhaayaa
-- Jaga Hindsutan........:)

Sun`s rays do not go very well with dark sign.

If there are more lines please let us have them.

#152 you write under a false assumption that a ``divider`` is a bad thing in your indictment of iqbal. consider, for some, a rediscovered mard-e-momeen justifies getting back a lost possesion, its all good.

sometime back someone (ferzana ? ) had written that she could not apreciate savarkar poetry due to its fascism irrespective of its poetic quality. i guess you are making that statement as a ``well meaning hindu (LOL)``.

Re: # 153, jang:
Now we are talking. Islam by sword is the life breath of the conspirators, that is what the crusaders concluded twelve hundred years ago.

Let us face it, it is people like you that will lead to armageddon and then whoever has a more superior nuclear weapons will eliminate the opponent.

So what is wrong if Bush, Cheney, and Wolfowitz propose the evaporation of West Asia by a massive preemptive nuclear strike, while the camel drivers are are on their camels.

That will lead to minimized cost of elimination of opponent in the war of civilizations and cultures represented by Christianity and Islam.

So mend thy thinking while there is time!

bjkumar, #106:
``Therefore, of course it must be all the Britishers’ fault! ``
****You need to familiarize yourself with the dynamics of Indian politics during 1925 to 1947. This is the general deficiency of the young generation. Very often they have simplistic solutions of problems. You need to to have basic information on Jinnah`s and Iqbal`s transformations.

Thanks for the unneeded sympathy for my ``pain,`` I feel none of it but as a rational and calm thinker I attempt to study the underlying principles and wish people would have the depth to do the same.****

nasah, #109:
``...but on the other hand the `conversion` was a great linguistic blessing for a malleably expressive language like Urdu that got its greatest poet that ever lived or will ever live....in the entire history of modern subcontinental poetry.......

I doubt Hindi had the wings to keep up with Iqbal’s mercurial soaring intellect……``

****
I, in general agree with your assessment of Iqbal including his personna, poetry and politics. But I would still append, HE WAS A DIVIDER NOT A UNIFIER. He proved to be a communalist. If you are from India then you know it is a big condemnation.

The depth of Jaya Shankar Prasad and Maha Devi Varma in Hindi Poetry is no less than Iqbal in any sense except neither of them have the depth of inconsistency, political opportunism or notoriety. Naturally, those who know only urdu do not have the equipment to understand them.****

ZahraJ, #116:
``On Chowk, majority of the Hindu interactors` scholarship is limited to dissing the significant or insignificant Muslim (with a glorious or humble Hindu/Arab background) characters. That is never going to assist anyone in gaining any understanding, but will definitely propagate the jahalut on board. ``
****Excuse me for making a sweeping a statement. Your analysis of Iqbal and above statement is a typical feminine analysis. Emotions galore, analysis minimal.****

nasah, #121:
``Iqbal`s ``kum naseebi`` was that all his genius of poetic ``Nai-nawazi`` did him NO GOOD -- when he entered the gutters of MIXING Religion with Politics......

in his poetic naivety Iqbal wished if he could produce a Muslim `Murde Momin` -- in the mold of all powerful European Fascist `Superman` -- in other words a kind of an Islamic Mussolini.....that will once again conquer and rule the world from Sumatra to Spain.....for Islam.

in the process Iqbal messed himself up by tearing his Indian and Punjabi roots -- opted for Hijaz and Cordoba instead of Sialkot and Gujranewala -- messed himself politically and messed up his community into Aadha Teetar-Aadhi Batair Muslims -- jo ghar kay nu rahay ghat kay ........for decades to come.....``

****I agree.****

Re: # 150

When the writing is on the wall, only an idiot will like to over analyze. You are certainly entitled to your right.

As a well meaning Hindu, you may have your own twist to Iqbal`s leanings. You may know more about the psyche that many of us do not know. Why don`t you share?

Re: # 151, ZahraJ:
Before I respond to your statements it is necessary to achieve common definition of concepts. Victor Hugo once said - before a serious discussion we have to agree on definitions.
``writing is on the wall``: Do we unquestioningly accept what is propagandized? My answer is, no.
``idiot will like to over analyze`` : An idiot can not analyze. Analysis without grounding is vaporous rigmarole.
``a well meaning Hindu``: Thanks for presuming that.
``twist to Iqbal`s leanings``: Various points should not be characterized as twists, i.e., if there is any desire to understand.
``Why don`t you share?``: I will refer to the comments that have already been made - I will restrict myself mostly to my comments.

#10, People who are informed about the trials and tribulations that he went through should shed light on the salient features.

#86, The points raised there should be critically examined. So that an understanding can be developed between the Hindu and Muslim interactors. Ultimate question is: Did Iqbal have political instigations and motivations in theorizing the division of India? Additionally, why did he undergo transformation from your quotation in #45?

#1, #72, In view of these comments should we reassess the role of Iqbal in promoting goodwill/disintegrating Indians - communalizing them? Was he a real Hitlerite nazi clothed as a great poet? Even if he were so, we can admire his poetic skill but should we regard him as an ideal role model?

Of course there are many other issues but let the above suffice. You may ask why should we do all this? The answer lies in indicating why are we interacting? For me Chowk can be a small step in developing a stepwise understanding between alienated Indians - past and present. Let us isolate the traumatic experiences that transformed Iqbal from a unifier to a divider. May be then we can begin to ideate what we need to overcome and may be our next generations will rectify our follies.

#121 nasah

Nice of summary of the guy. Reminds me of Sarvarkar and, in recent times, VS Naipaul.

Brilliant people but for personal or other reasons not able to rise beyond personal prejudice or other influences. Fascism and strong-men were very popular the 30s including throughout the so-called democratic countries.

Zeena> Let me be blunt: Can you please give a list of Iqbal scholars from anywhere in the world--no, just give me the name of ONE such scholar--who subscribes to your theory.
Thank you.
Asif

It should work:

Masjid-i-Qurtuba

Recited by Muhammed Ali in his majestic voice:

Listen to:`` Masjid-i-Qurtuba``:

A complete set of the entire Kalaam , farsi & urdu, read and recited by Muhammed Ali, the great orator-Actor, is available from Iqbal Academy. A video production is in the works. The Director, Suheyl Umer shared with me some of the highlights & plans. It seems that we could expect a high calibre production.

#134 by Naqshbandi on April 16, 2006 5:45am PT
there is i believe letters from his german language teacher, maybe it was a love affair, i`m not sure. we must also remember at that time europe was very racist society,all we have to do is read the history of jews in germany at that time, also european society was very conservative, catholic would`t marry a protestant etc.

Re: # 143

bhai, having an affair with someone and marrying them are two different things....
I`m not saying they got it on but it is a possibility and racism doesn`t come into affairs of the heart.

PALGIARISM
#135 by Naqshbandi on April 16, 2006 5:53am PT
Re: # 129

Zeena,


{{Comparing one of the greatest minds of the past century to an obscure Pushtu poet! }}

This is exactly what I have been pointing out in my previous posts. Majority of Pakistanis depict this typical mindset with prejudice and narrowminded approach towards pushtoons and Punjabies are exclusive among them.

Samething that Lahorie/sialkotie Iqbal did ............intellectual dishonesty. That is why he is the biggest PALGIARIST of th century.

He infact cut and paste Khushal Khan Baba`s ideology and didn`t have decency to admit it.

Mantra

Are you a Hindu? If you are, and your name is not Subhash Gatade, then Hindus might as well pick up their marbles and go home. Mother Earth does not have strong enough shoulders to carry the weight of so much stupidity.

Urdu daanoN keliye...






***
the BEST book in English for those who want an introduction to Iqbal and his poetry is the following by Mustansir Mir:

Tulip in the Desert

I think it is fair to say that Allama Sahib`s views changed a lot throughout his life and that is natural for an intellectual. Many things change our perceptions and views including, above all, experience and our education.

He was influenced by many factors: his pious father`s deep spirituality and traditonal sufi Islam, his mother`s love, Maulvi Shams al Ulama, his teachers at his school and at Govt College Lahore especially the English professor (can`t recall his name: Arnold?), his time in Cambridge, and London, his years in Munich in Germany, Rumi, the so called Muslim progressives of the Aligarh Movement (Ross Masood being one of his best friends), Indian nationalism, the plight of Muslims, Islamic history--both political and philosophical, world current affairs, Nietzsche and Western philosophical thought, and so on. A man is not an island...
His views on Islam were what could probably be called today `reformist` or modernist except for one crucial aspect:

His deep love for the Beloved Prophet and his Family stayed with him throughout his life and his longing for Madina and spiritual union with Huzoor Paak increased as his life reached its end. This is evident from the Persian Armaghan i Hijaz as Anne-Marie Schimmel has so clearly shown.

He was a complex man, a great man and a visionary one. Being human he was also flawed but his greatness is beyond doubt.

More on Iqbal and Women:

There is also the alleged affair between Allama Sahib and Attiya Faizi -- a rich Bombay socialite -- whilst in Europe....and there is a lot of existing correspondence between them. That they were close friends is undisputed. Whether they were lovers too is a matter of scholarly debate. Certainly when he came to Germany he made a point of inviting only her from his English friends to come and visit him in Germany and they spent a lot of time together alone...:-)

She even wrote a book about him which is out of print now and which I`d love to read...

Re: # 136
sorry not sure if she was from Bombay or Delhi!

#132 by mantra

The emphasis on nationalism was only ``For the present`` till individual nation-state problems were resolved. The ultimate objective though is clear in the following verses. Iqbal was vehemently against politics and called for return of Khilafat.

Rabt-o-zabt-e-millat-e-baiza hai mashriq ki nijaat
Asia waley hain iss nuktey say ab tak baykhabar

Phir syasat chor ker daakhil hisaar-e-deen main ho
Mulk-o-dolat hai faqat hifz-e-haram ka ik samar

Nas`l Muslim ki agar mazhab per muqaddam ho gayi
Urr gaya duniya say tu manind-e-khaak-e-reh guzar

Aik hon Muslim, Haram ki paasbani kay liyey
Neel kay saahil say ley ker ta-ba-khaak-e-Kashghar

Ta Khilafat ki bina duniya main ho phir ustawaar
La kaheen say dhoond ker islaaf ka qalb-o-jigar

Aey kay nashnasi khafi ra az jali, hoshyaar baash
Aey giraftar-e-Abu Bakar-o-Ali, hoshyaar baash

(Meanings: Rabt-e-zabt-e-millat-e-baiza = unity of Muslim nation; nijaat = freedom; nuktey = point; baykhabar = ignored; syasat = politics; hisaar-e-deen = Islam; hifz-e-haram = by product of religion; Nas`l = Race; muqaddam = priority; manind-e-khaak-e-reh guzar = Like dust of the road/being worthless; pasbanai = protection; Ta ba khak-e- Kashghar = Land of Kashghar; Ta Khilafat ki bina = Referring to Pious Caliphs and their system; ustawaar = reactivation; Islaaf = Ancestors; qalb-o-jigar = Strength and Faith; giraftar-e-Abu Bakar-o-Ali = Referring to those Muslims who always praise Abu Bakar and Ali for their bravery, but never follow them; hoshyar baash = Attention)

How was Iqbal a pan-Islamist, exactly? From the below he doesn`t seem to want an Islamic supra-state.

http://www.yespakistan.com/iqbal/reconstruction/6-2.asp

For the present every Muslim nation must sink into her own deeper self, temporarily focus her vision on herself alone, until all are strong and powerful to form a living family of republics.

---

Was it something that happened to him later on?

#130 by aslam644

No! no evidence. not even 1 male witness.

echooboom
``The poetry composed by a bevy of german girls who surrounded him on his farewell picnic showering him with flower-petals. Strangley, no men were invited.``

WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT THIS EVENT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE.
I KNOW FROM BRITISH HISTORY AROUND THAT TIME GIRLS WENT TO SEPARATE COLLEGES, I`M NOT SURE ABOUT GERMANY.

Re: # 130

His own son Javed Iqbal mentions it in his biography of Allama Sahib called Zindarud. Iqbal referred to his time in Germany as ``the best years of my life``. Letters between him and his various German frauleins exist.

#120 anil
anil jii

I have also Kashmiri Brahmin ancestory b/c of my maternal grand mother and I have also Pathan ancestory b/c of my father(I am half Pathan and half Kashmiri Brahmin). This is the main reason I got interested in Iqbal and Khushal Khan Baba. In my comparsion I found out that Iqbal stole all his ideology from Khaushal Khan Baba and also he abused Islam and mis guided Muslims. He was a dishonest so called pseudo scholar who sadly plagiarized.

I read Iqbal and Khushal Khan baba when I was in my 10th grade. Latter, I didn`t have much time to read`em now.

anil jii

Here are some headings for you from Khan Baba`s poetry. Most of his poetry has been destroyed in Afghan war with Russians.

((From C. Biddulph, Afghan Poetry Of The 17th Century: Being Selections from the Poems of Khushal Khan Khattak (London, 1890)))


``Adam Kheleh Afridei``
Life`s no life when honor`s left
The knowing, the perceptive man
The coming of winter

Here is one poem for you by Khan Baba`s poetry.

As I look on I am amazed
At this worlds denizens,

Just seeing what these dogs will do

To satisfy the flesh.

Such dealing as are brought about,

Men being what they are,

Satan himself could not devise,

Still less consider fair.

They place before them the Koran,

They read aloud from it,

But of their actions not a one

Conforms with the Koran.

In which direction should I go?

Where should I seek for them?

Wise men have now become as rare

As the alchemists stone.

Good men are like garnets and rubies,

Not often to be found,

While other common, worthless men,

Like common stones, abound.

It may be that in other lands

Good men are to be found

But they are few and far between,

I know, among Afghans.

However much he counsels hem

And gives him sound advice,

Not even his own fathers word

Does he consider good.

And yet Afghans, in all their deeds,

Are better than the Moguls;

but unanimity they lack,

and there`s is the pity of it.

For six or seven generations

They ruled in such a way

That all the people were amazed

At their accomplishments.

Either they were another kind

Than these Afghans today,

Or else it is by Gods command

That things have reached this pass.

I once Afghans acquire the grace

Of unanimity

Aged Khushal will thereupon

Become a youth again.


#121 nasha dear

I agree with most of your valid points about Iqbal`s poetry. I am not harsh on him, I am just telling the facts.

#125 Naqshbandi sahib jii

Well, that is exactly what I pointed out in my previous posts. Majority of Pakistanis are unaware of this fact that your Iqbal was fooling all of you guys . All his ideas were not his own. He was, but genius. How can you be genius if, you lack originality of your thoughts?

If you steal someone else`s ideology then it is called PALGIARISM in civil society. This is what this man, called Iqbal did by committing intellectual and scholarly dishonesty.

Why he did not admit right from the beginning that He is copying all his main themes revolving around shaheen, mard-e-momin and khudi from Khan Baba`s. Not only that this man abused Islam in a totally convoluted way and left Pakistanis in CONFUSION.

Thank you

Re: # 129

Zeena:

A very beautiful poem.

``Life`s no life when honor`s left
The knowing, the perceptive man
The coming of winter ``

Post some more....

Anil

Re: # 129

Zeena,

If you read my post i did not mention majority of pakistanis. I said his works have been studied in depth by Westerners in Western universities for the past 70 odd years and every facet of his life and work have been researched by THEM. Not one of these Iqbalian scholars (not Pakistanis) note has ever suggested that he plagiarised Khushal Khan Khattak. So I suppose using your logic Iqbal has been fooling the whole world`s scholars for nearly a century?!!

Come on woman, get out of this ethnic and regional mindset! I`m not sure but I think Allama Sahib has a poem about this Khushaal Khan Khattak. Perhaps echoboom bhai can help us here?

Comparing one of the greatest minds of the past century to an obscure Pushtu poet!

Re: # 135

Asif,

Good one! There is a poem on Khush`hal Khan known as `` The Will of Khush`hal Khan`` in Balae` Jibreel. Check that out. He also wrote something on Nadir Shah in the same collection. A famous line from the poem on Khushal Khan that we were taught in our childhood was:

~Muhabbat Mujhae Un Jawanoan Sae Hae
Sitaroan Pae Jo Daltae` Haen Kamand

I am not convinced that it is the complexity of ideas in Iqbal`s poetry that makes him stand-out. I believe that his poetry is a reflection of the observations and experiences based on his travels over the course of many years. Obviously, there has to be some richness in those experiences. Without that, the reader may not care much for the poet`s insights.

re: echoboom # 127

Very interesting! As proof of my ignorance, I had placed Iqbal and Amrita Shergil in different eras!

Iqbal seemingly had the same kind of appeal to women as did Hemingway :)

Kalachakra:126
Well maybe it is not so simple & ordinary

She & her sister were only in their early teens when Iqbal took them to show the Shalimar Gardens, Lahore. Umrao Singh had made a personal request. Umrao himself was an accomplished & acknowledged litterati (?) & a great afficiondo of Urdu farsi & particularly of Iqbal.

Amrita, in a rush of her love & admiration for Iqbal plucked a flower and presented it to him. Iqbal composed this poem right there, jotted it down , recited , and later presented itto her.

Those who understand urdu a bit above the average and are also familiar with the poetic urdu will surely notice the refrain of his transparently-innocuous love/passion.

echoboom

That rasik kanhaiya persona of Iqbal isn`t common knowledge. Who would have imagined him serenading Amrita Shergil!!

A very humanizing and wonderful facet of Iqbal`s life. Thanks for the info.

Hindus and Muslims of India and their unities and strifes are much like elephant in that children`s story in which five blind men are trying to figure out by groping different body parts of the pachyderm. The accident of which body part they happened to have access informed them and based on which people like Jinnah and Iqbal formed their ideas. These people were not supermen. They had limited lifespan and limited intellectual span. Once they became old they were incapable of revising their views which by that time had become solidified and which had at that time lions share of most recent influence they received.

Evolution will someday let men live more than 200 years and make them less averse to revisions of their views. But that is in future. When that future arrives it would be even more difficult to analyze as to what these people really stood for. If Iqbal was fickle then he would have changed more often in 200 years` lifespan. I guess in such circumstance the people to whom they provided leadership would be forced to discover what they ``really`` stood for from many twists and turns of their evolving ideas. So you we are back to where we were: that you have to think through with your own mind and separate wheat from chaff. Which anyways everyone should do. No matter how much you are in love with a thinker, accepting his ideas requires basic minimum thinking on your part. Noone can do the hard work of your thinking except you.

Dear Nasah, Rsridhar, BJKumar, NHK, Zeena etc

Guys,

I feel obliged to read your posts.

Thanks for making my day.

Ashwani

in other words -- in his poetic naivety Iqbal wished if he could produce a Muslim `Murde Momin` -- what Iqbal ended up producing was a ``Murderer-e Momin``.......

my dear Zeena -- you are a little too harsh on Iqbal --

an intellectual is not an island -- an intellectual without influencing intellects of others is a village idiot -- Iqbal was a man who took so much from both East and West -- yet was indeed a uniquely ORIGINAL poet --

he was influenced by many currents and counter currents during his life time. His poetic genius was that he clothed Urdu with a new language of poetry that poor Urdu prior to Iqbal had never experienced before...

for example -- now who could enclose an ocean of Darwin`s Evolution with added Mutation -- in one couplet in Urdu -- or in any language of any advanced or less advanced culture:

hazaaroN saal nargis apni bay noori pe rotee hai
kaheeN tub jaa kay hota hai chaman meiN deedawar paidaa.....

now we wouldn`t call Iqbal Plagiarizing Darwin`s concept of Evolution --

Iqbal was NOT --``the biggest plagiarist of the century`` --

Iqbal`s ``kum naseebi`` was that all his genius of poetic ``Nai-nawazi`` did him NO GOOD -- when he entered the gutters of MIXING Religion with Politics......

in his poetic naivety Iqbal wished if he could produce a Muslim `Murde Momin` -- in the mold of all powerful European Fascist `Superman` -- in other words a kind of an Islamic Mussolini.....that will once again conquer and rule the world from Sumatra to Spain.....for Islam.

in the process Iqbal messed himself up by tearing his Indian and Punjabi roots -- opted for Hijaz and Cordoba instead of Sialkot and Gujranewala -- messed himself politically and messed up his community into Aadha Teetar-Aadhi Batair Muslims -- jo ghar kay nu rahay ghat kay ........for decades to come.....

Kalachakra:Further to #108

..........[the poem he has written for the young daughter of some-singh, a raja--the girl later became India`s most famous painter then { I`m forgetting the name of the Raja & his two daughters--sometime when Dilip Singh returned from France]. the poem is ``Voh must naaz jo Gulshan meiN jaa nikaltee hai.].........

---

Here I found the sikh girl. Amrita shergil!, daughter of Umrao Singh. This link givers her picture as well.


http://hinduonnet.com/thehindu/lr/2002/06/02/stories/2002060200280400.htm

#107 by kaalchakra on April 14, 2006 1:20pm PT

It will be great if you or anyone else could summarize Iqbal`s major theoretical and philosophical contributions to advancing human understanding.

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You might find this {http://www.shariati.com/iqbal.html``} to be somewhat close to what you enquired about. A lot of material is out there & Iqbal`s own ``Reconstruction....`` is the most authoritative work , in prose & that too in english, but it is very pithy as well as profound. One has to ``read`` it over over & over again [like Ghalib or Bedil & others] to complement the osmosis-like process along with ones own mental/spiritual development & ``extra-curricula`` studies & readings.

The reference page & site I gave earlier would be sufficient for now. I, personally, believe that poetry is far more `logical` & effective than dry discourse--though it definitely depends on one`s disposition.

``khirad kee gthhiyaaN suljhhaa chukaa meiN
miray maula mujhhay sahib-junooN kar``--Iqbal

O I`ve unravelled the knotty-tentacles of the intellect-logic
My master! give me now the gift of an unbridled passion*

*meaning to become a wild risk-taker, the crazy one who takes the hitherto uncharted route rather than an analyser, an accountant, or a weigher of ``benefits/losses``{ in short you-know-which-type}

Ali Shariati writes:

........``The greatest advice of Iqbal to humanity is: Have a heart like Jesus, thought like Socrates, and a hand like the hand of a Caesar, but all in one human being, in one creature of humanity, based upon one spirit in order to attain one goal. That is, to be like Iqbal himself: A man who attains the height of political awareness in his time to the extent that some people believe him to be solely a political figure and a liberated, nationalist leader who is a 20th century anti-colonialist. A man who, in philosophical thought, rises to such a high level that he is considered to be a contemporary thinker and philosopher of the same rank as Bergson in the West today or of the same level as Ghazzali in Islamic history``
.......

Ali Shariati: on Iqbal

http://www.shariati.com/iqbal.html

It might interest you to know:
1) He was a calligraphist par-exellence. In fact better than the professional who composed his collection. He got them done under his personal supervision & reviewed each letter & emended & edited as well. This despite the fact that he only one of his eyes worked. The other was `false`, after a childhood illness.

2) He had a tremendous voice & was an amazing reciter with tarranuum.

3) He was the first poet who started public poetry reading. Before him poetry was only read among poets themselves. It was an considered an insult by the arts-pursuers to read, sing, or dance to entertain non-practioners.i.e general public. Iqbal, other than the mushairas of his forming years, never ever went for vah vah mushairas.[only once in Lucknow he was roped in & ridiculed thoroughly for his innovative `poetry`]. He also did not consider himself a poet & wanted to spend his time more ``actively``

4) He was failed on medical grounds for the civil service

5) He was awarded a doctorate for the work which he had already done before he left for higher studies. He also remarked later that that tract had lots of `loose-ends` & `mistakes` which he wanted to clear up later. That is why he discouraged those who wanted to translate it.

6) His first book, even when he was a student, was on economics. It was the standard elementary economics texbook at least in the undivided Panjab for a long time.

7) He was a bar-at-law & practised law--but he was ``lazy`` in that he had set himself a certain amount to earn a month. If that amount he would make in the first few days then he would not take any more assignment. He, despite a nagging wife called him alazy & good-for-nothing [she was college graduate--eeenglish-knowing ] enforced the rule.

8) His sense of humour & his ``popularity`` with women. Unlike our melodramatic poets who croon for the ones beyond their reach, Iqbal was always a Krishna among gopis. Yet he also was not a lecher or an exploiter. The poetry composed by a bevy of german girls who surrounded him on his farewell picnic showering him with flower-petals. Strangley, no men were invited. the poem he has written for the young daughter of some-singh, a raja--the girl later became India`s most famous painter then { I`m forgetting the name of the Raja & his two daughters--sometime when Dilip Singh returned from France]. the poem is ``Voh must naaz jo Gulshan meiN jaa nikaltee hai...``

9) He was a member of parliament: His debates there are a treat to read for their humour, law, history, culture & clarity.

10) His role for an independent home for muslims ( not necessarily partion--I stay away from these subjects) has been greater, behind the scenes, than that of Jinnah . It is important to not that throughout he was clean & clear with no ambigousness & mealy mouthedness of a barrister or politician...one visage for public & another one for ``intellectuals & PaRRhay-likhhays``.

11) He was very much involved in establishing the education system of Afghanistan.

12) His pro-active role in curbing & curtailing the Quadiani collaboration with Nehru is evident from his letters & missives.

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And all this was happening when his family life was never ever peaceful & his involvement in all those matters personally & still retain his sanity is truly mind-boggling.

This Punjabi poet, called Iqbal used Khushal Khan Khattak`s ideology and Islamic fundamental and fanatic theme. Khushal Khan Khattack`s Shaheen, khudi and mard-e-momin were never based on Islamic ideology. Khushal Khan Khattak never used or abused Islam as his shield. His own personality was his shield. Khushal Khan Baba was far sighted , he emphasised on modernism and modern day fighting skills.

Iqbal lacked his own ideology , all he was master of copying other`s ideology. Iqbal lacked originality of his thoughts, which Punjabis deny.

Iqbal commited the biggest crime of PALGIARISM. He was never a CREATIVE GENIUS himself. He stole Khan baba`s ideology with out even having a second thought that all he was doing was scholarly dishonesty.

I will openly say, Iqbal is the biggest PALGIARIST of this century. No doubt about it.

Re: # 117

With all due respect Zeena, Iqbal has had more research done on him by both desis and orientalists than any other Urdu poet by far; the literature on him is huge and, having read quite a bit of the literature on him, there has never been this ludicrous suggestion made by anyone that he plagiarised Khushal Khan Khattak`s ideas.

He was influenced more by Nietzsche than any Pushtun writer. As for his imagery it is taken from the classical Persian poetic tradition.

*rolls eyes*

Re: # 117

Zeena:

Why don`t you post some from Khushal Khan Khattak transliteration and Enlgish translations also?

I find Iqbal intriguing because of his Kashmiri Brahmin ancestory, and his ``Saare jahan se accha.... `` and then his turn around from Pakistan.

Anil