The Untruth of an Indian Majority

#205 by bjkumar on April 27, 2006 11:21pm PT
>>>>The cowardice of the Pakistani crowds here and the chowk management (probably one and the same) on this issue - especially compared to the high decibel they emit on trivial made-up topics, is remarkable in its deafening silence.<<<<<

BJKUMAR,
Who pays for this ``unflinching idealism`` of CHOWK? I don`t see any advertisements here.

I am new here, but my observation is that the major themes/ goals of Chowk
are:

(1) Vigourous glorification of partition ideology (this ideology is an example of universal humanism)


(2) Voluminous peddling of soft Islamism (i.e the problem is with non-muslims, and their lack of understanding of muslim majority societies)


(3) Denial of any Hindu collective identity (Romilla Thapar vareity)


(4) Denigration of current Indian nationalism (called ``inventive nationalism`` except that thier invention is failing)


(5) India is not a valid inheritor of the heritage of the region


(5) Condoning and pretending terrorism doesn`t exist


etc collectively billed as ``UNFLINCHING IDEALISM``

sunlight, you take awau my words.
Cheerios

163 by tahmed32

I will try to answer some of your questions based on my recollections of my readings in history. I am sorry that I cannot provide detailed references.

Q. how could a dynasty be so expansive geographically, yet so limited temporally (3 generations)?
A. I think this is still a subject for research. See the chapter ``Ashoka and the Decline and Fall of the Mauryan Empire`` in http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/king_asoka.pdf . According to this, the early historians blamed Ashoka for becoming a pacifist after his conquest of Kalinga (Ashoka`s writings testify that he was horrified by the bloodshed accompanying the conquest of Kalinga and that he wandered around the streets saying ``What have I done``)

Raychaudhari: ``Ashoka had given up the aggressive militarism of his forefathers and had evolved a policy of Dharma-vijaya (religious victory) which must have seriously impaired the military efficiency of his empire. He had called upon his sons and even greatgrandsons to eschew new conquests, avoid shedding the blood and take pleasure in patience and gentleness. ... It is, therefore, not at all surprising that the rois faineants who succeeded to the imperial throne of Paṭaliputra proved unequal to the task of maintaining the integrity of the mighty fabric reared by the genius of Chandragupta and Chanakya.``

Other historians refuted this.

Nilakantha Shastri: ``Ashoka’s pacifism, his abandonment of war as an instrument of
policy and his exhortation to his successors to follow him in this respect, had nothing doctrinaire about it, and was kept within limits by wise awareness of the complexity of human situations and motives. There is no evidence that he diminished the strength of the army or weakened the defences of the empire. Dynastic empires depend for their continued existence on the supply of able monarchs in the line; Ashoka was great in every way; he was not only the greatest of the Mauryas, but one of the few truly great rulers of the world. There was evidently none among his children equal to the task of maintaining the unity of the vast empire, and the division, which, according to legend, threatened the empire even at the accession of Aśoka, actually overtook it after the close of his reign.``

Finally:
``Scholars have been looking for other causes for the decline and fall of the Mauryan Empire. They range from economic upheaval to the breakdown of bureaucracy and overdecentralization of authority. Here, too, the responsibility is assigned to Ashoka who is accused of excessive generosity to religious causes, expansion of the bureaucracy with new positions and entrusting provincial responsibility to officials like the Rajjukas and Pradeshikas. The last factor is said to have brought into existence corrupt and wicked officials and rebellion in frontier areas as a reaction against them. All these theories call for careful re-examination, weighing and sifting all evidence gleanable from Buddhist sources, because the lithic records of Ashoka, as are hitherto available, are silent on his last decade as emperor.``

Q. to what extent was it (Arthashastra) purely academic with limited application in real life?
A. Arthashastra dealt very practically with economics, politics and ethics. Here is an example from economics KAUTILYA ON THE SCOPE AND METHODOLOGY OF ACCOUNTING, ORGANIZATIONAL DESIGN AND THE ROLE OF ETHICS IN ANCIENT INDIA

``Kautilya, a 4th century B.C.E. economist, recognized the importance of accounting methods in economic enterprises. He realized that a proper measurement of economic performance was absolutely essential for efficient allocation of resources, which was considered an important source of economic development...Kautilya developed bookkeeping rules to record and classify economic data, emphasized the critical role of independent periodic audits and proposed the establishment of two important but separate offices - the Treasurer and Comptroller-Auditor, to increase accountability, specialization, and above all to reduce the scope for conflicts of interest.``

#203 Salim Chauhan,

Thank you for facing up to what has been obvious to the non-Pakistani world for a while. There is enough evidence out there to make the conditionals meaningless. The cowardice of the Pakistani crowds here and the chowk management (probably one and the same) on this issue - especially compared to the high decibel they emit on trivial made-up topics, is remarkable in its deafening silence.

HP sahib

(The ethnocide took place on both sides of Punjab. You cannot lament the one and ignore the other. )

You are completely wrong. I condemn violence on both sides.

Regards

#189, bjkumar {``I posed a very simple question earlier. I challenged the Pakistani crowds to denounce the 1999 hijacking of IC-814 and the role of their ISI in it. A simple test of the courage.
Nobody among the otherwise ``voluminous`` Pakistanis here has responded.

Not the Tahmeds.
Not the Hate Pots.
Not the Yassers.
Not the Trullies.
Not the Chauhans.
Not the Zeenas.

Fakers one - fakers all! ``}

BJ,
Sorry, I have been busy with the plight of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in BD. Of course, as a frequent passenger, I denounce ALL acts of hijacking of any vehicle by ANYONE for ANY REASON AT ANY TIME OR ANY PLACE.

Yes, this includes the hijacking of the Indian Airlines flight from Kathmandu. If the ISI had any role in this, then just add this to the long list of crimes indulged in by this shadowy and violent organization - Jihadists in J&K, Tally Bans in Afghanistan, Killing of Shias and other minorities. terrorism in Delhi, Benares, and elsewhere. Happy?

#198 HP

You must be really crazy or a complete ignoramus.

Approximately 5% of punjab+haryana+chandigarh is muslim. There are 100s of mosques, extremely visible in cities and well maintained. There are probably 1000s of traditional islamic weddings there every year.

Here is a link to just a few from the official punjab govt web site !!

http://punjabgovt.nic.in/tourism/Mosques.htm

Haryana

Dargah Of Bu Ali Shah Qalandar, Kabuli Bagh Mosque, Pathar Masjid, Humayun`s Mosque and Lat Ki Masjid.

#200 by jang

`` i dont know..all my sindhi neighbors NEVER talked of visiting their left relatives in sukkur and other small towns, no rishtas occuring.``

I think it is a personal thing...I know of at least three Hindus from Hyderabad who married in India and brought their wives back to Pakistan.

Sure many UP/CP memon, Khoja etc go to India for marriage and bring their brides back. One would rarely hear these guys giving their girls in marriage to Indian Muslim males.

I remember an interesting story from the 80s. One UP family wanted their son to marry in India but Indians refuse saying they would not send their daughter to a foreign country. Rarity, but that happens too.

#198 i dont know..all my sindhi neighbors NEVER talked of visiting their left relatives in sukkur and other small towns, no rishtas occuring. so i assume there are none or negligible in small towns even in sindh. OTOH it was common for memons to have relative in pakistan to come back visit and have rishtas in bombay. regarding the muhalla thing, its a mutual thing, you cannot buy property in muslim areas (or rent etc) if you are not a muslim either. sometimes back, bhais property in bhindi bazar was on auction, and noone showed up. for that matter, ghatis cant buy-rent in gujju mohalla-society that easily either.

Re: # 198
Ranting and raving in #198 can be given a modicum of respect
if following is the case:

(1) Pakistan`s constituition declares that all human beings are
equal citizens under the constituition

(2) Evidence on the ground that Pakistan is struggling or
trying to implement such a constituition as India has been trying

(3)If there had been efforts to have a 14% Hindu population in
present day Pakistan

(4)If they appoint a Hindu as a President or PM for propaganda
sake (as they consider our Muslim presidents)

(5) If they do anything remotely positive to allow the Indian muslims to
live peacefully with their neighbours...

the list is long......

#188 by majumdar

“There are no communal riots in Pakistan becuase minorities have been practically finished off. Hindus and Sikhs constituted almost 20% of the population in what is today Pakistan pre-1947, today they are barely 2-3% If this doesn`t consist an ethnocide, what does.”

Dada,
Pre-partition numbers also tell us that Muslims in East Punjab were about 30-40% of the population. How many Muslims live there now? There is no point in bringing up the pre-partition numbers because a huge transfer of population took place in the late 40s.

The ethnocide took place on both sides of Punjab. You cannot lament the one and ignore the other. Sindh got more Muslims from the central provinces than the Hindus that left Sindh in the late 40s exchange. Actually they never stopped coming until the late 70s.

#190
I am glad that hindus are getting married in Lahore…Before Partition Amristar had almost 35% muslims population…when was the last time a Muslims was seen there outside of the train station? Pick up any East Punjab city...Gurdaspur, Jallander, Hoshiarpur, Kapurthala how many Muslims are getting married there?

#191and 194 by jang

“i have not seen any hindu op-ed writer bitching about anythinig (aka political deissent) in paki newspapers ..for that matter even on chowk, there have not been any such writings.”

If you read English papers then you will not find any. And that goes for all Sindhis regardless of religion. In fact, I know of only one Sindhi writer in Dawn. So it is not a religion problem. But you will find many Hindu writers in Sindhi newspapers bitching abt everything under the sun.

Let me explain this lack of Sindhi writers in English papers (only 2 to 3 in Karachi). For a long time, there were no English medium schools in Sindh. In Hyderabad there were only 2/3 and only people of influence and money could send their kids there. Karachi had many but both Karachi and Hyderabad have majority Urdu speaking population. The rest of Sindh was completely Sindhi medium so there aren’t very many English writers from native Sindhis. But that is changing. Now there are plenty of English teaching schools and you will see more Sindhi writers in English press too, I believe in the next five to ten years time.

Political freedom and politics is an on going issue in Pakistan and it effects all and not Hindus alone.

“in pakistan urban centers, hindus dont take (dare not either) pangas..say burn a cycle to protest marinalization of bengalis.”

There aren’t very many Sindhis in Urban centers what to talk abt sindhi hindu. But in small towns and cities in Sindh, Hindus don’t have their own “Billi Marran” and “Chandani chowk” either. They live in whatever neighborhood they like. No one denies them rental properties or housing.

In general, I must say that life has not been easy for minorities in the last 25 years in Pakistan but fundamentalists are a curse for all Pakistanis. Hindus is Sindh are not singled out for special treatment like Muslims in several Indian towns are…would you like me to name a few Indian cities:)

#195 bharath

The key is that we are dealing with a culture that simply does not comprehend that it is full of hate. This is the key to understanding the whole situation. It is like dealing with a psychopath who feels no emotion when he kills people. How can you explain to such a person that it is ``wrong`` to kill? Its impossible....

4000 years of history removed systematically and completely!!! Hindu and Buddhist icons and people have been completely erased from Pakistan. But the blinkers of ideology and islam are such that this is viewed as natural and inevitable. The hindus were cunning, devious and backward; so it is good that none are left now. This is the opinion of liberal people!

And these same people give indians lectures on ``human rights``, ``secularism``, gandhi etc. It really boggles the mind !!

I would like you all to respond:

I am for Indiaism where political parties are based not on
religion, caste, etc but on fighting about building roads, factories, etc
Thus I am equally opposed to political Hindu extremism and
political Muslim extremism. And I agree with pmishraji`s concerns
against converting Hinduism to another Islam with its wearing the religion
on your sleeve hyper religiosisity.

BUT HERE IS THE NUB OF THE PROBLEM and NO ONE IS RESPONDING:

PARTITION HAS NOT SOLVED THE ASPIRATIONS OF POLITICAL MUSLIM
EXTREMISM IN THE SUBCONTINENT.
HINDUS ARE WONDERING WHAT EXACTLY THEY WANT?
THIS UNANSWERED QUESTION IS WHAT SUSTAINS HINDU EXTREMISM.

There are two stems to this problem
(1) 100% commited implacable hostility of Pak and BD to
``Hindu`` India; ``we have no life, we won`t let u have either``

(2) 3rd muslim group -Indian Muslims
they have been somewhat (but little somewhat moderate) that`s about it.

Bush came to India praising India , offering a deal that other countries are
jealous of, perhaps muslims in New Delhi, and Lucknow can have more uninterrupted
power supply.

Yet Indian Muslims came out in droves and protested violently because they
are upset with what is going on IRAQ! They had the choices of being Indian Muslims or
Muslim Indians, YET THEY SIMPLY CHOSE TO BE MUSLIMS. Vir Sanghvi points out
that Hindus are bitter about this and BJP`s electoral chances are improving.

I wish 1% of those numbers protested in 1999 when some Punjabi Sunnis hijacked an Indian plane and stabbed a newly wed bride groom.

DMji, swarrier, bjkumar....thanks for all your clarifications.


Ranting and raving in #186 can be given a modicum of respect
if following is the case:
(1) Pakistan`s constituition declares that all human beings are
equal citizens under the constituition

(2) Evidence on the ground that Pakistan is struggling or
trying to implement such a constituition as India has been trying

(3)If there had been efforts to have a 14% Hindu population in
present day Pakistan

(4)If they appoint a Hindu as a President or PM for propaganda
sake (as they consider our Muslim presidents)

(5) If they do anything remotely positive to allow the Indian muslims to
live peacefully with their neighbours...

the list is long......

Recently I read a typical Pak column starting
like this ...Bush ignored all the communal hatred in India and praised
it`s ``secular image``. I emailed the author pointing out the above points.....

SURPRISE, surprise.. he responded that I am a Hindutvadi!

#193 mocambo ..sure sure if it still exists. i also ate some delightful kerala food (no beer served there, waiters wear zari-border dhotis) in a place under bandra highway flyover..steps from bal thakreys house. check it out and tell me what you think.

HP sain..

the nominally hindu (bheels, gujjars and other tribals..not ``caste`` hindus) population strength is in rural sindh as you mention, near rajasthan border. if you notice, there are no riots in rural rajasthan in india either. most riots are in urban centers. in pakistan urban centers, hindus dont take (dare not either) pangas..say burn a cycle to protest marinalization of bengalis.

Re: # 175
Bharath
I cannot add to what you have said. That is what I was trying to write in my missve to Tahmed. We have not been taught anything bad about Pakistan or Muslims in our textbooks. You know how bland our history textbooks are. They sometimes take away any fun. I had left school long before I read more about Kanhoji Angre, Kunjali Marakkar, the battle of Kolachal etc..

And that is a good thing. Impressionable minds should not be subject to any indoctrination. It is better to have people grow up and mature and make their own decisions. Didn`t the Buddha once say, ``Have no guru``.

My only indoctrination ot Hinduism has been I think being taught the Gayatri Mantra at a very young age and a visit to the Sarasvati Temple in Kerala for my Vidya Arambham.
The rest of it , I`m a beef eating Hindu and I couldn`t care less what people think.

Jang
I wasn`t about to give a certificate.-) I merely felt that Tahmed`s questions were out of curiosity. After all under current scientific evidence all of us must have come from Africa. Genetic studies tend to show that. Now a long time ago I tried to trace the origin of Nairs in Kerala by trying to pore over books. The only conclusion I came to was that they landed here from some place and pretty much uprooted (read killed plundered or even maybe by peaceful means which I doubt) the indigenous population. There are two theories of where they came from. Mesopotamia , or a little more far-fetched Nepal. I tend to subscribe to the Mesopotamian theory.

By the way I still owe you a beer and biryani at Mocambo. Some time, eh?