The Untruth of an Indian Majority

bharath#184:
``But to become friends if one has to accept lies, then it is not worth it.``

I do not accept anyone`s blatant lies, such as those in #186, nor should you; the whole world knows the truth and their attempts to twist facts do not change a thing. Indians are secure enough to admit the imperfections of their system which allows shameful episodes like Gujarat in 2002, Bombay in 1992 and Delhi in 1984. They, on the other hand, have to deny that Sindh has been losing Hindus steadily and want us to accept their ``expertise`` and not the facts and statistics, not even their own newspers. I have met scores of Pakistanis during my nearly 40 years in North America, including two christians, but never a Hindu which in itself is an indicator of sorts. I also know of Sindhi Hindus who left Pakistan because they thought that their daughters and sisters were not safe in the country. Hindus in Pakistan are virtually invisible and inaudible, and I have not seen anything in Pakistan`s Dawn in the last ten years which would suggest otherwise, except for Justice Bhagwan Dass, cricketer Dinesh (``Danish) or a cloth designer. I have met Sindhi Hindus in India who came as visitors and refuse to go back. (On the other hand, I have also met in India some Hindu Pakistanis from Peshawar who have nothing but nice things to say about their ``Taleban`` friends).

But we should not let these lies take us away from the fact that Pakistan is our neighbour and we cannot live in a state of permanent hostility with it. Therefore, we have to distinguish between people like Tahmed who want friendship with India, whether or not they like Indian chowkies, and those who rejoice at chowk at the prospect of bombs exploding all over Indian cities. Such people should best be ignored.

And let`s face it, our own record has been less than perfect. We did everything in East Pakistan what Pakistan is doing in Kashmir and more even though East Pakistan, unlike Kashmir, was not a disputed territory. Our human rights record in Kashmir is nothing to be proud of. And our actions went against our preaching of peaceful resolution of problems whether in Goa or Sikkim.

HP sain,

while i agree that hindu poor in pakistan prolly are no worse off than mulsim poor..muslim poor can participate in political activities like IJI, JUI and other miscellaneous jihadi activities. Some even participare in MQM etc. i have not seen any hindu op-ed writer bitching about anythinig (aka political deissent) in paki newspapers ..for that matter even on chowk, there have not been any such writings.

i am impressed that no writers complain about saffron tiles in public urinals in pakistan.

The many pleasures of being hindu in pakistan...

Lahore witnesses traditional Hindu wedding after 18 years

http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/Asia/20060423/314198.html

Lal said several Hindus had given in to social pressure and converted to Islam or Christianity for better lives, which was why the community`s size had dwindled.

#184 Bharath

On this issue I must unfortunately agree. There will never be any durable peace between the two countries until the Pakistanis first openly admit all the misdeeds they have inflicted through their army and ISI.

Failure to do so means that the mindset is still the same and all peace ``moves`` are simply tactical - mere waiting games till the spotlight moves away - with a deep-rooted desire to return to the old game plan as soon as possible.

I posed a very simple question earlier. I challenged the Pakistani crowds to denounce the 1999 hijacking of IC-814 and the role of their ISI in it. A simple test of the courage.

Nobody among the otherwise ``voluminous`` Pakistanis here has responded.

Not the Tahmeds.
Not the Hate Pots.
Not the Yassers.
Not the Trullies.
Not the Chauhans.
Not the Zeenas.

Fakers one - fakers all!

Or they all simply dropped the ball.

Or never had any to begin with!

They all clammed-up - quieter than an ``izzat-dar`` lady faced with inevitable rape. As if staying quiet somehow preserves the honor.

Perhaps Pakistanis are a very ``honor`` conscious lot.

They even kill for it!

HP sahib,

Let`s analyse the minority positions in the two countries objectively.

First, practise

There are no communal riots in Pakistan becuase minorities have been practically finished off. Hindus and Sikhs constituted almost 20% of the population in what is today Pakistan pre-1947, today they are barely 2-3%. If this doesn`t consist an ethnocide, what does. By contrast the Muslim population has not shrunk post- Partition in what is today India, indeed India receives a million Muslim immigrants from Bdesh every year. This is of course not to say that things are all hunky-dory in India. The Sikh genocide of Nov 1984, the state endorsed killings in Gujarat in 2002 and the burning of Staines were disgraceful incidents that should make every Indians head hang in shame.

Second, theory

Indian Consititution is secular and gives theoretically equal rights to all citizens irrespective of caste and creed. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and by doing so condemns all non-Muslim citizens (including those Muslims the state deems to be non-Muslims) as second class citizens.

Regards

PS: There were two neighbouring countries one with a Hindu majority, the other with a Muslim majority. Both had Muslim gentlemen called Abduls design WMDs for them. One Abdul became the President of his country and an icon for its youth- the other Abdul became a prisoner and a felon in his own land. Would you guess whether the Abdul who became a President came from the Hindu country or the Muslim country.

Too many shots...#186

Error correction:
``they are criminals who kidnap Hindu``
There are....
``Are their no political problems ``
Are there...

#159 by dost-mittar

“The Hindus in Pakistan are too weak to even cry when they hurt. Their situation is worse than that of native Americans who, too, have been decimated in their native land but can at least squeak. What a pathetic fate for the children of Kautalya of Rawalpindi!”


Why is that that time and again I find you lying abt things you have no knowledge abt?

I understand that you cannot overcome your communalism which perhaps is your second nature now but I wanna ask you to post me a single incident after 1947-48 of communal riots in Pakistan whereas, people have even lost count of communal riots in India. It happens so frequently that I guess most of the time it does not even make the news any more.

There are political problems in Pakistan and yes, they are criminals who kidnap Hindu girls too. Is that something India is free of? Are their no political problems in India or muslim girls are not kidnapped in India? Women for women, girls for girls, body for body Indians have raped and killed more Muslims in India than Hindus in Pakistan.

What moral standing you have to say things that in your delusion you attribute to Pakistan while completely ignoring what happens in India. Is this how you justify what goes on with Muslims in India?

There are over 2.5 million Hindus in Sindh alone. Most of them live close to India-Pak borders and if they were so unhappy they would have left Pakistan a long time. Instead the Hindu population in Pakistan has increased from 400K in 1951 to 2.7 million in 1998.

Can you post me some examples of Hindus “who are so weak to even cry”. This is an open world now. Please post something to back your comments or stop lying. Is there any Hindu from Pakistan who spoke to you in your dreams abt not able to cry?

Minorities face problems in every country almost all over the world. Minorities in Pakistan are not in any better situation than in India with a difference that NO National Party in Pakistan professes to eliminate Hindus from Pakistan. Something, we commonly hear in India with follow up action resulting in loss of thousands of live.

I think it is time you check in some hospital for a brain MRI.

DM sirjee.. i am sure tahmed is a real great guy, educated, well-bred and with nice books in his almira. but i dont understand why we should shut him up? i am merely commenting on his posts. i think its important to understand what he has to say without making him a bad guy. if he is keen to prove that everything from nada of a pajama to cow to lion-seal to art of war came from central asia and the greeks, why not? maybe its just idle curiosity, maybe not.

his views about the LOC are irrelevant.

then there is this thing about ``i, mr nice guy, came to chowk thinking we can be friends but then i found out how REALLY foul you folks are``..rather pompous and self-serving IMO.

Re: # 181
#181 by dost-mittar on April 26, 2006 6:16pm PT
>>>>He is very protective of his religion and Pakistan, just as most of us here are about our respective religions and countries<<<<

DMji,
I have respect for you and I hope you will respond. One appreciates desire to establish friendship, setting aside the hatred, etc.

I consider myself a very fair-minded person. But to become friends if one has to accept lies, then it is not worth it. Main point is they have not demonstrated any glorious ideals they talk about and still have the right to criticize India and have different yard sticks for India. GENUINE RECONCILIATION IS UNLIKELY if ``educated`` Pakistanis are like this
(Then one is reminded of the type of ``education`` they receive back home).

I am ready to condemn Modi`s genocide any given moment of my life, but having said that I see dishonesty or probably cognitive disconnect from reality on the part of Pak gentlemen all over this board. One classic lie that aggravates me is that there is brainwashing against each other BOTH in India and Pak, and religious intolerance is the same.

Here is a sample of 2 Pak posts:
ZEENA: In Pakistan there is religious tolerance, where all religions can be practiced.
KAAMI: In Pakistan minorities are not actively persecuted, they are only neglected.

Regards Sir,
I am only trying to learn.

Re: # 179
pmishraji,
I know we have similar thoughts, I enjoyed ur post on your Satyameva Jayathe religion.

``spurious universalism`` perfect phrase for what I see here, and I am amazed !
- synonyms for spurious : counterfeit, bogus, fake, false, forged, inauthentic, phony (also phoney), sham, spurious, unauthentic.

In one thread I read enormous trash on (you know who)`s glorious secularism, humanistic ideals, etc; When asked for even a shred of evidence demonstrated on the ground from day#1 August 14, 1947- the answer is zero, zilcha, nada.

I learned about a scheduled caste hindu gentleman who believed in (you know who)`s secularism but he felt humiliated since they suspected him to be a hindu spy, he returned back to India in 1950.

Also, the same thing applies to soft Islamism- if it is such a glorious thing why isn`t being demonstrated on the ground anywhere? Not a single country.

#181

Tauheed sahib, ye kya maamla hai?

This gentleman makes you sound like almost another Gandhi (sort of)!

For what it is worth, I agree with you on those issues (except for your foolish knee-jerk defense of that utter foolishness called partition and even more foolish reasons advanced in its favor)!

(My feelings on Jinnah are well known to the world by now - filtered or otherwise!)

Jang:

Since this is the time of testimonials, let me repeat my unsolicited testimonial about tahmed32. He and I have been on chowk for a long time. In the beginning he was very friendly towards Indians and Hindus and had only nice things to say about them. If he has changed, the blame lies partly on those of us who have been quite insensitive to the feelings of Pakistanis and Muslims on this website. My own reservation about him in the beginning was that he thought that chowk was a website which was going to bring India and Pakistan together and maybe even make this world a better place. This was his delusion and he is perhaps himelf to blame for having too high an expectation from cyberspace where confrontations are the rule rather than exception.

While his perceptions of India and Indians has undergone changes, he has stuck to some basic stance, such as:

- All relgions, including Hinduism, have the same essential message, which is also the message of the Quran.
- Religion is a personal matter and the state should not be governed by religious laws.
- Pakistan can learn some lessons in democracy from India.
- Pakistan should accept LOC as the basis of a permanent solution of the Kashmir problem.

He is very protective of his religion and Pakistan, just as most of us here are about our respective religions and countries.

pmishra: The fact is that mankind evolved from a common ancestor living in africa. A primate (and not exactly a monkey, although monkeys obviously share a common ancestor with humans). This is hard science, not religious fluff.

What is soft is what you wrote about the above being ``spurious universalim``. What is ``spurious`` about what I wrote above??

And yes, I find Islam to be a perfectly reasonable religion. That no doubt makes me the enemy in your mind - and that is fine. I can live with that. Have a good life.

#177 bharath

You got it right buddy. Totally on the nose. This is why the Amartya Sen`s of the world will not get much respect for their political liberalism from me.

The trick with tahmed goes like this: everything is bathed in spurious universalism (we are all descended from monkeys etc) UNTIL we get to islam. Then islam is special, extremely special, unique etc the basis for all civilization and so on. So in the end its a two track thing: islam vs. vague generalities. In other words, there is nothing worth noting outside of this religion ! But he is a real liberal guy :-)

This is soft islamism. It is the exact analog of soft hindutva (``we believe in everything and are so liberal but sanatana dharma is so unique, compelling, special etc.``).

#174 my ``original point`` - as you put it - were questions in #129 to ijaz gul who is obviously knowledgeable on the subject, that i could not find anywhere else. if you have anything to provide by way of answers to those questions, then i would be much obliged. if not, then i suggest you stop looking for nefarious designs on my part. capiche, mahareesh??

Re: # 159
DOST-MITTAR writes ``The Hindus in Pakistan are too weak to even cry when they hurt. Their situation is worse than that of native Americans who, too, have been decimated in their native land but can at least squeak. What a pathetic fate for the children of Kautalya of Rawalpindi``

There you go. and DOST is no Hindu fanatic.

The author of this article a Tamil Hindu gentleman has written a robust article and uses the phrase ``fascist-controlled Gujarat``. I have never seen a MUSLIM or other ``secular Indians `` condemning what pakistan does in similar robust terms.

Therein lies the irony of ``secularism`` of the sub-continent and the reason behind the emergence of Hindu extremism. This is being described by one Pak arthashastra expert that this is some type of Kautilyan strategy!