The Untruth of an Indian Majority

Sanatani,
``Hindu identity existed withinin diversity for a very long time. Barring South India of antiquity which was not considered part of the Indian empire,``

These are two different issues put togather for brevity. By diversity I explicitly mean the many diffent codes with emphasis on different gods flowing into the mainstream concept of Hinduism.I don`t think I am wrong. This point is much elaborated by Dost in his remarks.

The Indian empire I refer to is the Mauryan Empire

Tahmed and Dost,
For explanation, I will just cut and paste a few portions.

``At that time there were three main empires. The first two were the Nanda and the Chandragupta Maurayan empires while the third and largest was the Greek Empire, which spread from North West India to Asia Minor with its Garrison under Seleucus stationed at Taxila. It was here that Kautilya had picked his Greek knowledge and Chandragupta Mauraya had met Alexander. In 323 BC, on the news of Alexander`s death at Babylon, Chandragupta and Kautilya stirred a revolt with slogans of Nationalism and drove away the Greek Garrison from Taxila. After making alliances of convenience, they than diverted inwards towards Pataliputra. By 325 BC, the Nanda Empire had been overrun, Greeks driven beyond Kabul and Herat and Alexander`s General Seleucu`s daughter taken in marriage by Chandragupta. Except South India, this Kingdom extended from Arabian Sea to Bay of Bengal and to Kabul in the North. The capital was at Pataliputra (Patna). The accounts of such a state are mentioned in the Arthashastra while the Greek ambassador Megasthenes corroborates them in his study.

Jawaharlal Nehru describes this Mauryan Empire as an autocracy with dictatorship at the top. There was a great deal of autonomy ……. and highly prized. This state was modern for its time and well governed. It maintained diplomatic relations with the Greek world including Alexander`s governor Seleucus his successors and Ptolemv Philadelphus. Oxus River in Central Asia provided the link to Europe through Caspian and Black Sea being served by the Silk Roads. In those days Central Asia was rich and fertile whilst the present ecological disaster had not yet set in.

Thus the Mauryan Empire in Kautilya`s time comprised many semi autonomous regions that spanned across south Asia, fused together in an oligarchic or autocratic order, and owed allegiance to the sovereign at Pataliputra. On the external front, this empire dealt with Greeks, Central Asia, Europe, Arabs and Egyptians. Ambassadors came to the court at Pataliputra from Ptolenmy of Egypt and Antiochus. Ashoka added to these contacts and made India a centre of international commerce and Taxila became known as an intellectual centre. It can therefore be inferred that a high level of diplomacy, political economy, trade and international equilibrium was exercised for the order to sustain itself.

The conception of law, in general or the Kautilyan preference for logic, manifests the secular and positive characters of politics, and also has an effect on the legal framework. Usually this legitimacy is accorded to the law by relating it to religion. Thus Kautilya had classified that whenever there was a conflict between religion and rational law, the reason ought to be held authoritative. Thus the suggestion that the king is the sovereign lawmaker is clear. This is one motivating factor for Nehru to have held Kautilya in such esteem``.

I hope I answer many questions and raise many more.

I feel sorry for those many Indians who get irked once they see views of a Pakistani on such subjects and come up with naive and silly remarks. I bet neither Shirin Mazari nor many like her and most many Indians know a hang about Kautilya.

Yes there is a hypothetical Kautilyan State but some other time.

Long Long Cheerios

ijaz_gul#148:

Thanks for sharing your thesis. I, too, am looking forward to your response to tahmed32`s querry. In particular, does Kautalya have anything on succession? It seems that the Hindu kingdoms - in North at least - were not very successful in maintaining dynasties; by contrast, the Mughals were able to rule for three centuries even with fatricidal fights for succession.


bharath#155:
What I find significant about this and other reports is that they are from Christian, Parsee or other Human Rights organizations. The Hindus in Pakistan are too weak to even cry when they hurt. Their situation is worse than that of native Americans who, too, have been decimated in their native land but can at least squeak. What a pathetic fate for the children of Kautalya of Rawalpindi!

#156 by harimau

heh heh..you should be thankful to the DMK massanmuthus that taminadu is not hindi speaking. left to brahmins, it would have been..after all sanskrit is so close to neo-hindi (tatkal reservation e.g.)

you should do a maha-rudra to thank DMK masanumuthus that hindi was repelled. after that poolangi-seva and a good week-long reciting of vishnu-sahastranamam is a minimum display of your gratitude ;-)

Re: # 111

Ijaz_Gul writes:

``Hindu identity existed withinin diversity for a very long time. Barring South India of antiquity which was not considered part of the Indian empire,``

Gulle Shah 2 Points,

The first sentence seems to imply that the Hindu identity did not encompass the South. Nothing could be further from the truth. The great and good Adi Shankracharya was a Namboodri Brahman from Keral. It is he who lead the resurgence of the Sanatan Dharam. The establishment of the various peeths, the reivigoration of science and Sanskrit. And without the Sanatan Dharam (I mean had we remained Budhist) we would have perished before the sword of islam and later christianity.

What is this Indian Empire please enlighten us?

Shri Bharatvarsha was not an empire like the Holy Roman One. It was more a conglomeration of kingdoms that encompasses the Indian Subcontinent + Afghanistan+ Tibet (in which at various times there was an empire ruled by a Chakravarti). So more than an empire it was (for want of a better word) well a subcontinent and the only one of its kind in the world. The Vedas give its depiction from the Karakoram to Himalya to the oceans etc.

It is difficult to explain it in words the essential unity of this subcontinent as a single entity as it had a unique structure. We were and are one people despite our diversity and without being under kingdom flag etc. (e.g. you cannot transalte the french term esprit de corps exactly in another language) however let me try.

It was (and is) an empire of the soul and Dharam (which is not to say there wer no assole`s and no adharam) and a shared ethnic, religous, sociological, geographic, cultural and historical mosaic/feeling/memory/superiority complex etc. (I mean we cared not a fig for the rest of the world see Al Beruni`s works when this spirit was coming to an end).

That was why we could absorb wave after wave of invader and make them Dharam Rakshaks. For those who think that defeating us was a cakewalk read heroic Hindu resistance to Muslim invaders at bharatvani.org

Regards
Sanatani

The triumph of the Brain-Dead in India was the legislation making Hindi the ``National language``.

The ostensible reason was that as the language of the single largest plurality of people, it would enable them to conduct their business with the government.

The idiots who came up with this specious argument conveniently ignored the fact that you need to apply in writing if you are going to deal with the government, or for that matter, with any entity. And of course the greatest number of illiterates are to be found precisely in the so-called Hindi belt. Which meant that the average North Indian would require the services of a ``writer`` to write his petition in Hindi. Well, he could then have employed the writer to write his petition in English!

This was of course lost on the Brain-Dead legislators from North India who outnumbered the rest of India merely because of their pig-like breeding habits. The only happy outcome of this idiotic stand is that North India remains as backward as when the British left India.

Well, we in the South and the West do need chaprasis and cooks and Bihar and UP seem to be capable of supplying a sufficient quantity of them for the rest of India.

Way to go, mufukkas!

Anil Kapuriaji,
refer to my post #138 and then read the news item
below. You need text books on Pakistan ideology studies,
your other request here may be misplaced.

Warm regards,

---

Tuesday April 25, 2006:09 PM
Pak textbooks deride Hindus as astute, sly, or manipulative

Lahore, Apr 25 (ANI): The National Commission for Justice and Peace (NCJP), a Catholic Church body in Pakistan, has said that the country`s media describe India as a `hostile neighbour`, and school textbooks teach the students that Hindus were backward and superstitious who assert their power over the weak, especially the Muslims.

``Government-issued textbooks teach students that Hindus are backward and superstitious, and given a chance, they would assert their power over the weak, especially, Muslims, depriving them of education by pouring molten lead in their ears. Pakistan Studies textbooks are an active site to represent India as a hostile neighbour,`` the report stated.

It added: ``The story of Pakistan`s past is intentionally written to be distinct from, and often in direct contrast with, interpretations of history found in India. From the government-issued textbooks, students are taught that Hindus are backward and superstitious.``

The report further said that students were being taught that Islam brought peace, equality, and justice to the subcontinent, ``to check the sinister ways of Hindus``. ``In Pakistani textbooks, Hindus rarely appears in a sentence without adjective such as politically astute, sly, or manipulative,`` the Daily Times quoted the NCJP report as saying.

The NCJP has come out with the report following an appeal from several minority communities that the media and educational boards were biased against them and that the federal government should take note of this seriously.

Quoting a news article, the report said: ``Textbooks reflect intentional obfuscation. Today`s students, citizens of Pakistan and its future leaders are the victims of these partial truths``.

They cited numerous several other media reports and content in textbooks in this regard, which suggested that the country`s socio-political system was against the minorities` interests and addressed them by derogatory terms.

The NCJP monitored four major national Urdu dailies from August to October 2005 and found extremely provocative news reports, statements and editorials against religious minorities including Christians, Hindus, Ahmadis and even Jews.

The Commission said that a common hate speech method is the use of derogatory terms for minorities. Citing examples, it said that Ahmedis are called `Qadiani` or `Mirzai` while Christians are called `Isai`. Until some years ago, these terms were not even considered derogatory, it added.

According to the paper, MP Bhandara, a parliamentarian belonging to a minority community, wrote a letter of protest to an editor of a national daily last year but it had no effect on the newspaper`s policy. (ANI)

Re: # 148

Ijaz Gul Sahib:

Is it possible to read you M.Sc. thesis on Kautilya`s Arthashastra?

Anil Kapuria

Re: # 142

Rakesh:

So right you are. I have a personal experience in Chennai (those days Madras) of money makes people talk. In late 80s I was in Chennai, and had taken a taxi to go to meet someone from my hotel, Taj Coromandel (?). The taxi driver when I reached the destination, would only talk in Tamil, no English no Hindi. I cold not eve find out the fare amount that I must pay. In exasparation, I told him in Hindi that I will pay twice of what he is asking.... in a flip he started speaking in tooti-phooti Hindi, and I did pay him twice what he was asking.

Betterment more than business is the reason for all of us to learn something new, be it English, Hindi or anyother language. My niece is married a Tamil Brahmin, and has become quite proficient in understanding Tamil. They live in Bangalore, and had met each other when her husband lived in Delhi.

Anil

Re: # 144

India, like Switzerland, does not need a national language.

In my view in another 25 to 50 years, there would be two main languages in India - North Indian ishstyle English, and Southie yestyle English. I have seen the evolution of Hindi over the last 40 years, especially the last 15 years the evolution has been remarkable.

Bollywood, Chennai wood, and ``IT jee ka Mandir`` will take of this fusion, and all other languages will remain regional.

Anil Kapuria

Re: # 144

India, like Switzerland, does not need a national language.

In my view in another 25 to 50 years, there would be two main languages in India - North Indian ishstyle English, and Southie yestyle English. I have seen the evolution of Hindi over the last 40 years, especially the last 15 years the evolution has been remarkable.

Bollywood, Chennai wood, and ``IT jee ka Mandir`` will take of this fusion, and all other languages will remain regional.

Anil Kapuria

ijaz gul #147 That doesnt add too much on what Kautliya wrote and his impact on chandragupta maurya. I humbly await feedback (even if it is to tell me that you dont have any views on them) on my questions in #129. Cheers. :-)

re#148 >>>>`Checkerboard Diplomacy`. ....
I hope it hurts no one`s ego. least that of Bharath.

No it doesn`t actually!

Other checkerboard diplomacies are being effectively used.
If not effective more will be invented.
A-spot aka Karzai insults
B-spot (u know that well!)
C-spot :decreasing the water flow in Chenab.

You name it.
Cheerios:)

Dost,
This is a part of my Thesis.

``Whatever the case, with time, Kautilya has begun to find more universal relevance and acceptance. Like Clausewitz who was dealt an early blow by those who misinterpreted, misquoted and misunderstood him, his treatise has been often called Kautilianism, which signifies ``skill in stratagem, dexterity in intrigue and policy``. The craze in theatre loving Bengalis to watch Dwijendralal Roy`s Chandragupta, the stage play of nineteen thirties and forties, portraying a scheming and cantankerous Brahmin as Kautilya adds to these distortions``.

``Kautilya over the passage of time has come to be associated with the phrase, `My friend`s enemy is my enemy and my enemies enemy is my friend`. In order to solve their equations, it is not uncommon for students of Algebra to relate the friend to the positive and enemy to the negative value. Usually wrongs in politics are aptly related to Kautilyanism; the mother of all evils. Writers on international politics when writing on South Asia make a liberal use of this Kautilyan saying as a fait accompli for `Checkerboard Diplomacy`. Worse, many who have never read a word of his treatise liberally opine that according to Kautilya, two wrongs can be fused into a right, and know by heart this algebraic equation. Little do they realise that by saying so they have embarked on an extremely controversial subject``.

``Michael Handel considered Carl Von Clausewitz to have brought a Copernican Revolution, by his emphasis on centrality of politics in war. Perhaps he was two millennium late, as Kautilya had already done so in his treatise, The Arthashastra``.

``Kautilya has often been compared with Machiavelli. However, this comparison is always limited to the Prince and Discourses. His comparison with `The Art of War` is rather negligible. His only comparison to Clausewitz is a passage by Jawaharlal Nehru in The Discovery of India. Nowhere does any objective comparative study of relevance exist``.

I hope it hurts no one`s ego. least that of Bharath.

Cheerios

Dost,
This is a part of my Thesis.

``Whatever the case, with time, Kautilya has begun to find more universal relevance and acceptance. Like Clausewitz who was dealt an early blow by those who misinterpreted, misquoted and misunderstood him, his treatise has been often called Kautilianism, which signifies ``skill in stratagem, dexterity in intrigue and policy``. The craze in theatre loving Bengalis to watch Dwijendralal Roy`s Chandragupta, the stage play of nineteen thirties and forties, portraying a scheming and cantankerous Brahmin as Kautilya adds to these distortions``.

``Kautilya over the passage of time has come to be associated with the phrase, `My friend`s enemy is my enemy and my enemies enemy is my friend`. In order to solve their equations, it is not uncommon for students of Algebra to relate the friend to the positive and enemy to the negative value. Usually wrongs in politics are aptly related to Kautilyanism; the mother of all evils. Writers on international politics when writing on South Asia make a liberal use of this Kautilyan saying as a fait accompli for `Checkerboard Diplomacy`. Worse, many who have never read a word of his treatise liberally opine that according to Kautilya, two wrongs can be fused into a right, and know by heart this algebraic equation. Little do they realise that by saying so they have embarked on an extremely controversial subject``.

``Michael Handel considered Carl Von Clausewitz to have brought a Copernican Revolution, by his emphasis on centrality of politics in war. Perhaps he was two millennium late, as Kautilya had already done so in his treatise, The Arthashastra``.

``Kautilya has often been compared with Machiavelli. However, this comparison is always limited to the Prince and Discourses. His comparison with `The Art of War` is rather negligible. His only comparison to Clausewitz is a passage by Jawaharlal Nehru in The Discovery of India. Nowhere does any objective comparative study of relevance exist``.

I hope it hurts no one`s ego. least that of Bharath.

Cheerios

Re: # 144

True. English is the ``linking`` language of India.
But that still doesn`t make Hindi the national language.

End of digression.

Re: # 134
sajid11_in
>>>>So I urge all of you, rather than pointing fingers, lets all point tio the simillarities. we can accede that Paki`s are a nation, and they should accede that they are not going to take any more bites out of our land. That should bring about peace<<<<

Sajid:
I share your sentiments, except I only wish things are that simple.
Just retaining the territories , and having thier own lives it seems
will not seem to resolve the problems. Besides they havent agreed
to your proposal on ``retaining territories``.

India should not become permanet member of security council,
if India increases its defence budget from 2.5 % to 2.75% it
is intimidating, it is Indian hegemony... one never heard
of Pak civil nuclear requirments until India signed one; then it
needs a package deal. In summary India should not
achieve and do things which it believes it deserves
based on its size and economy all because a much
smaller country seeks parity.In other words ``I have no life
and I won`t let you have a life``

meanwhile terrorism continues.....