The Untruth of an Indian Majority

Re: # 223

Tahmed,
I realised my mistake after he posted his response on #221. I mentioned it in my last paragraph in my post #222. But since he hadn`t done so earlier I was a bit stumped because I spent a bit of my childhood growing up in the cantonment areas in India during my school vacations and I think most of our JCO`s would hardly read the Mahabharata from a tactical viewpoint. No, Von Manstein was more their cup of tea (no Katerina in those teacups, what an alluring woman a regular hurricane of emotions).
To continue in the same vein with respect to our misinterpretations I`d say there was many a slip between cup and lip .

swarrier: i think you and jang are making too much of ijaz gul`s use of the phrase ``indian military mind``. The fact is that indian military strategy and tactics are, like its counterpart in pakistan, rooted not in any religious books but in the British Indian Army of WWII of conventinal warfare with armored brigades/divisions with air/infantry support being used in case of offense. Not in religious books which were written during times when the chariot was the state of the art wrt warfare - and are thus of no guide any military strategy or tactics today. Religion has of course been used as a motivational tool for soldiers in the Pakistan army (although not in the Indian army as far as I know), but ultimately it has little practical value. As Napoleon said, God is on the side of the largest battalions.

What has changed of course is the introduction of nuclear weapons which have rendered WWII conventional warfare as obsolete as the WWI era trench warfare was rendered obsolete by introduction of tanks.

So, let us not have a Hurricane Katrina in a teacup.

Re: # 221
Mr. Ijaz_gul

Well, that got something didn`t it?-) I must adopt this tone of moral indignation more often, if it gets responses.-)

I cannot speak for the RSS or the VHP. Their ideologies are different. However since quite a few members of my family are RSS supporters (my father was a member of the Hindu Mahasabha when he was a student) I must discuss this with them. Academic assumptions may be far removed from reality. People may look only at those portions of the Mahabharata that they want to see.

Now on the Shiv Sena I would differ completely from your view. This was a party that was aided and abetted by the Congress in Maharashtra to break the power of the trade unions. It did not come to fore as a Hindutva party. It moved later on into popular consciousness with the poorer sections of Maharashtrian society with it`s call to provide jobs only to Maharashtrians, in Bombay. It at that time was nothing more than a party with urban roots. It had not spread to the countryside. The whole Hindutva leaning came much later when Mr.Thackeray wanted a greater reach. Here again Congress idiocy led to a large number of middle class Maharashtrians (not just Maratha speaking but people settled in Maharashtra) plighting their troth with the Shiv Sena. Mr. Thackeray became the Hindu Hriday Samrat and the Shiv Sena`s support demographics changed. However it is still a regional party, with some internal troubles now. I do not think any deep study of the Mahabharata is being done there even though the Thackerays are CKP`s. It is purely political opportunism.

I mistook your statement to mean the Indian Military itself, the armed forces. Since I have some relations in armed forces and I like to discuss things if and when we meet I found your statement a little difficult to understand. I had not realised that you meant the Indian Military Mind from the point of political parties.

swarrier,
Every state policy can be persued with single or multiple instruments of policy. So the political objectives of war may be pursued through economics, diplomacy, insurrections and war itself simaltaeously. As I qouted earlier from G.N. Pant.

`Just as the Arthashastra has for many years been scanned for what it has to say about the development of Indian state-craft, the Mahabarata is now being explored for what it has to say about the `essence of Indian military mind`.

Just to explain, the Mahabharata school follows the strict Hindu precepts with high ethics, and political idealism based on morality. It differs from Kautilyan thought in that it is not secular and academically not pragmatic. This school follows the traditional Hindu Shastras and the codes of Manu, Shukra and Kamandaka. In contemporary terms, this school is also called the Hindu right or the fundamentalists. The first political party that represented this school was Rashtriya Swayamasevak Sang (RSS). This is a party at the grass root level, is fundamental, militant radical and committed to the concept of Bharat Varsha. Other parties are Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Virat Hindu Sammelan and Shiv Sena. Ayodha mosque, Gujerat and forcible reconversions are recent examples of Hindu militancy that oppose both Gandhian and Nehruvian concepts.

Let me reassure you that I am not party to any sinister conspiracy theory against you. Also believe me that this is no brownie contest, but just an academic exercise on my part.

Yes on Bharat Versha, I have a theory too.

Cheerios

I really that there is a sinister conspiracy theory going on against me.
Mr. Ijaz_gul has steadfastly ignored my repeated questions on why the rise of the saffron brigade is a reflection of the Indian Military Mind.

I want to know what this Indian Military Mind is....
Does it exist?

And how does the increase in the popularity of a political party, that uses the pandering to various minorities of another party, as the plank on which to base its own agenda, have anything to with a military mindset?

Tahmed32,
Are you now going to accuse Ashoka and Chandragupta Maurya of being Biharis? :) Have you done any research about their criminal tendencies or does that occur only after Biharis become Muslims and migrate to Pakistan?

so tahmed, many pople named ashok, puru (poros), kautiya and chandragupta in your pind..typically folks proud of their history do adopt historical hero names.

how abot sikander?

#206 sunlight. Many thanks for this feeback. While Asoka`s pacifism is blamed by some historians i notice for the quick end of the Mauryan dynasty, I think this is untrue. A more basic reason was probably the impossibility of maintaining an empire of such vastness with 4th century BC technology. This is the same reason that Alexander (whom no one would consider a pacifist) created an empire that dissolved almost the day he died. Didnt even last one generation. If anything, Asoka`s pacifism is what kept the empire together as long as it did - with his writings being found in places as far flung as eastern india, gujerat, afghanistan. And in a variety of languages, including one in Aramaic (on a stone pillar in north west pakistan, Aramaic being the language that jesus spoke).

I have also taken a quick look at the link to Kautliya you provided, and look forward to reading through it over this weekend.

#215 I think that is a bit simplistic - in fact, ``caste`` often seems to have changed with economic and/or political success rather than vice versa. Thus, the Nandas were in all likelihood sudras, as was the ruler of sindh who preceded raja Dahar.

I have a theory-only a theory off course - that Kshatriyas and Vaishyas were the only ones who had the strength to challenge the supremacy of Brahmins who had been given the pride of the place in Vedic Hinduism. They asserted by this by choosing alternate faiths. Kshatriyas by and large defected to Buddhism and Vaishyas to Jainism- as seen by the fact that most Jains are to day Banias.

Regards

Jang,
The book is under publication. I dont want the cat out of the bag.
Thankx anyhow.
Cheerios

ijaz

you are being coy. why dont you post a full-fledged article on the FP on the topic of indian mind? dont be afraid..we are all cool here...we would absolutely apreciate any interestinng insights.

DM
Chandra Gupta`s Ahimsa ( a fasting concept) and concept of Dharma Vijaya ( a war of atonement) weighed heavy on the loose Mauryan Empire. This War of Atonement was in reality geared by inward power and prestige but on the face sanctioned by high priests. However it was not enough to maintain the unity. As Gupta moved away from activism, he did not have a lineage worthy enough as suggested by some chowkies to keep the banner afloat. As I asserted earlier, Arthashastra School rose in reaction to the rigorism of Buddhism and emphasised materialism rather than morality. But this was not sudden. Infact Kautilys benefitted from at least four such schools and at least thierteen such teachings. The most DharmaShastra. Therefore some critics see a paradox

Another friend had posed a question about Mahabharata. I will just qoute G.N. Pant.

`Just as the Arthashastra has for many years been scanned for what it has to say about the development of Indian state-craft, the Mahabarata is now being explored for what it has to say about the `essence of Indian military mind`.

Cheerios

swarrier:

You are right about Buddha being not strictly vegetarian. His dictum was that a bhikku should eat whatever he got in his begging bowl; this meant that if he got meat in his begging bowl, he would eat it.

On your second question, I did read somewhere that Kshatriyas indeed embraced Buddhism as well as Jainism in large numbers. I do not know if this happened before or during the Mauryan empire.

Re: # 209
DM
I don`t think Buddhists were vegetarians. Jains okay. But Buddhists, I do not think so. The Buddha himself was not vegetarian and it is discussed that his last meal was some form of pork(this is discussed in the Budhagosa) .
I think the later Mahayana Buddhist schools emphasised vegetarianism to be on the same plane as the Jains.

For the rest , I cannot comment. But do you think that all the Kshatriyas in the Maurya empire would convert to Buddhism?

sunlight, ijaz_gul, tahmed32:

This is not a direct answer to tahmed`s question but I have in the past suggested a reason for why India became an easy prey to outside invasions after the Mauryan empire. One recalls that Alexander, after conquering the rest of the world, encountered stiff resistance in Punjab and was probably defeated by Porus.

I think that one of the reasons had to be the ascendancy of Buddhism during Ashoka`s time, especially since both Buddha and Mahavira were from the warrior Kshatriya castes and had attracted a large number of adherents of their own caste, just as Guru Nanak and the Sikh gurus initially attracted Khatri following. One can imagine the defensive capabilities of a society which had depended upon a single caste for its defence when that caste embraced pacifism and non-violence. Later on, of course, Buddhism transformed itself into a more practical faith in North Asia and China and even gave up on vegetarianism.

#205 by bjkumar on April 27, 2006 11:21pm PT
>>>>The cowardice of the Pakistani crowds here and the chowk management (probably one and the same) on this issue - especially compared to the high decibel they emit on trivial made-up topics, is remarkable in its deafening silence.<<<<<

BJKUMAR,
Who pays for this ``unflinching idealism`` of CHOWK? I don`t see any advertisements here.

I am new here, but my observation is that the major themes/ goals of Chowk
are:

(1) Vigourous glorification of partition ideology (this ideology is an example of universal humanism)


(2) Voluminous peddling of soft Islamism (i.e the problem is with non-muslims, and their lack of understanding of muslim majority societies)


(3) Denial of any Hindu collective identity (Romilla Thapar vareity)


(4) Denigration of current Indian nationalism (called ``inventive nationalism`` except that thier invention is failing)


(5) India is not a valid inheritor of the heritage of the region


(5) Condoning and pretending terrorism doesn`t exist


etc collectively billed as ``UNFLINCHING IDEALISM``

sunlight, you take awau my words.
Cheerios

163 by tahmed32

I will try to answer some of your questions based on my recollections of my readings in history. I am sorry that I cannot provide detailed references.

Q. how could a dynasty be so expansive geographically, yet so limited temporally (3 generations)?
A. I think this is still a subject for research. See the chapter ``Ashoka and the Decline and Fall of the Mauryan Empire`` in http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/king_asoka.pdf . According to this, the early historians blamed Ashoka for becoming a pacifist after his conquest of Kalinga (Ashoka`s writings testify that he was horrified by the bloodshed accompanying the conquest of Kalinga and that he wandered around the streets saying ``What have I done``)

Raychaudhari: ``Ashoka had given up the aggressive militarism of his forefathers and had evolved a policy of Dharma-vijaya (religious victory) which must have seriously impaired the military efficiency of his empire. He had called upon his sons and even greatgrandsons to eschew new conquests, avoid shedding the blood and take pleasure in patience and gentleness. ... It is, therefore, not at all surprising that the rois faineants who succeeded to the imperial throne of Paṭaliputra proved unequal to the task of maintaining the integrity of the mighty fabric reared by the genius of Chandragupta and Chanakya.``

Other historians refuted this.

Nilakantha Shastri: ``Ashoka’s pacifism, his abandonment of war as an instrument of
policy and his exhortation to his successors to follow him in this respect, had nothing doctrinaire about it, and was kept within limits by wise awareness of the complexity of human situations and motives. There is no evidence that he diminished the strength of the army or weakened the defences of the empire. Dynastic empires depend for their continued existence on the supply of able monarchs in the line; Ashoka was great in every way; he was not only the greatest of the Mauryas, but one of the few truly great rulers of the world. There was evidently none among his children equal to the task of maintaining the unity of the vast empire, and the division, which, according to legend, threatened the empire even at the accession of Aśoka, actually overtook it after the close of his reign.``

Finally:
``Scholars have been looking for other causes for the decline and fall of the Mauryan Empire. They range from economic upheaval to the breakdown of bureaucracy and overdecentralization of authority. Here, too, the responsibility is assigned to Ashoka who is accused of excessive generosity to religious causes, expansion of the bureaucracy with new positions and entrusting provincial responsibility to officials like the Rajjukas and Pradeshikas. The last factor is said to have brought into existence corrupt and wicked officials and rebellion in frontier areas as a reaction against them. All these theories call for careful re-examination, weighing and sifting all evidence gleanable from Buddhist sources, because the lithic records of Ashoka, as are hitherto available, are silent on his last decade as emperor.``

Q. to what extent was it (Arthashastra) purely academic with limited application in real life?
A. Arthashastra dealt very practically with economics, politics and ethics. Here is an example from economics KAUTILYA ON THE SCOPE AND METHODOLOGY OF ACCOUNTING, ORGANIZATIONAL DESIGN AND THE ROLE OF ETHICS IN ANCIENT INDIA

``Kautilya, a 4th century B.C.E. economist, recognized the importance of accounting methods in economic enterprises. He realized that a proper measurement of economic performance was absolutely essential for efficient allocation of resources, which was considered an important source of economic development...Kautilya developed bookkeeping rules to record and classify economic data, emphasized the critical role of independent periodic audits and proposed the establishment of two important but separate offices - the Treasurer and Comptroller-Auditor, to increase accountability, specialization, and above all to reduce the scope for conflicts of interest.``

#203 Salim Chauhan,

Thank you for facing up to what has been obvious to the non-Pakistani world for a while. There is enough evidence out there to make the conditionals meaningless. The cowardice of the Pakistani crowds here and the chowk management (probably one and the same) on this issue - especially compared to the high decibel they emit on trivial made-up topics, is remarkable in its deafening silence.

HP sahib

(The ethnocide took place on both sides of Punjab. You cannot lament the one and ignore the other. )

You are completely wrong. I condemn violence on both sides.

Regards

#189, bjkumar {``I posed a very simple question earlier. I challenged the Pakistani crowds to denounce the 1999 hijacking of IC-814 and the role of their ISI in it. A simple test of the courage.
Nobody among the otherwise ``voluminous`` Pakistanis here has responded.

Not the Tahmeds.
Not the Hate Pots.
Not the Yassers.
Not the Trullies.
Not the Chauhans.
Not the Zeenas.

Fakers one - fakers all! ``}

BJ,
Sorry, I have been busy with the plight of ``stranded`` Pakistanis in BD. Of course, as a frequent passenger, I denounce ALL acts of hijacking of any vehicle by ANYONE for ANY REASON AT ANY TIME OR ANY PLACE.

Yes, this includes the hijacking of the Indian Airlines flight from Kathmandu. If the ISI had any role in this, then just add this to the long list of crimes indulged in by this shadowy and violent organization - Jihadists in J&K, Tally Bans in Afghanistan, Killing of Shias and other minorities. terrorism in Delhi, Benares, and elsewhere. Happy?

#198 HP

You must be really crazy or a complete ignoramus.

Approximately 5% of punjab+haryana+chandigarh is muslim. There are 100s of mosques, extremely visible in cities and well maintained. There are probably 1000s of traditional islamic weddings there every year.

Here is a link to just a few from the official punjab govt web site !!

http://punjabgovt.nic.in/tourism/Mosques.htm

Haryana

Dargah Of Bu Ali Shah Qalandar, Kabuli Bagh Mosque, Pathar Masjid, Humayun`s Mosque and Lat Ki Masjid.

#200 by jang

`` i dont know..all my sindhi neighbors NEVER talked of visiting their left relatives in sukkur and other small towns, no rishtas occuring.``

I think it is a personal thing...I know of at least three Hindus from Hyderabad who married in India and brought their wives back to Pakistan.

Sure many UP/CP memon, Khoja etc go to India for marriage and bring their brides back. One would rarely hear these guys giving their girls in marriage to Indian Muslim males.

I remember an interesting story from the 80s. One UP family wanted their son to marry in India but Indians refuse saying they would not send their daughter to a foreign country. Rarity, but that happens too.

#198 i dont know..all my sindhi neighbors NEVER talked of visiting their left relatives in sukkur and other small towns, no rishtas occuring. so i assume there are none or negligible in small towns even in sindh. OTOH it was common for memons to have relative in pakistan to come back visit and have rishtas in bombay. regarding the muhalla thing, its a mutual thing, you cannot buy property in muslim areas (or rent etc) if you are not a muslim either. sometimes back, bhais property in bhindi bazar was on auction, and noone showed up. for that matter, ghatis cant buy-rent in gujju mohalla-society that easily either.

Re: # 198
Ranting and raving in #198 can be given a modicum of respect
if following is the case:

(1) Pakistan`s constituition declares that all human beings are
equal citizens under the constituition

(2) Evidence on the ground that Pakistan is struggling or
trying to implement such a constituition as India has been trying

(3)If there had been efforts to have a 14% Hindu population in
present day Pakistan

(4)If they appoint a Hindu as a President or PM for propaganda
sake (as they consider our Muslim presidents)

(5) If they do anything remotely positive to allow the Indian muslims to
live peacefully with their neighbours...

the list is long......

#188 by majumdar

“There are no communal riots in Pakistan becuase minorities have been practically finished off. Hindus and Sikhs constituted almost 20% of the population in what is today Pakistan pre-1947, today they are barely 2-3% If this doesn`t consist an ethnocide, what does.”

Dada,
Pre-partition numbers also tell us that Muslims in East Punjab were about 30-40% of the population. How many Muslims live there now? There is no point in bringing up the pre-partition numbers because a huge transfer of population took place in the late 40s.

The ethnocide took place on both sides of Punjab. You cannot lament the one and ignore the other. Sindh got more Muslims from the central provinces than the Hindus that left Sindh in the late 40s exchange. Actually they never stopped coming until the late 70s.

#190
I am glad that hindus are getting married in Lahore…Before Partition Amristar had almost 35% muslims population…when was the last time a Muslims was seen there outside of the train station? Pick up any East Punjab city...Gurdaspur, Jallander, Hoshiarpur, Kapurthala how many Muslims are getting married there?

#191and 194 by jang

“i have not seen any hindu op-ed writer bitching about anythinig (aka political deissent) in paki newspapers ..for that matter even on chowk, there have not been any such writings.”

If you read English papers then you will not find any. And that goes for all Sindhis regardless of religion. In fact, I know of only one Sindhi writer in Dawn. So it is not a religion problem. But you will find many Hindu writers in Sindhi newspapers bitching abt everything under the sun.

Let me explain this lack of Sindhi writers in English papers (only 2 to 3 in Karachi). For a long time, there were no English medium schools in Sindh. In Hyderabad there were only 2/3 and only people of influence and money could send their kids there. Karachi had many but both Karachi and Hyderabad have majority Urdu speaking population. The rest of Sindh was completely Sindhi medium so there aren’t very many English writers from native Sindhis. But that is changing. Now there are plenty of English teaching schools and you will see more Sindhi writers in English press too, I believe in the next five to ten years time.

Political freedom and politics is an on going issue in Pakistan and it effects all and not Hindus alone.

“in pakistan urban centers, hindus dont take (dare not either) pangas..say burn a cycle to protest marinalization of bengalis.”

There aren’t very many Sindhis in Urban centers what to talk abt sindhi hindu. But in small towns and cities in Sindh, Hindus don’t have their own “Billi Marran” and “Chandani chowk” either. They live in whatever neighborhood they like. No one denies them rental properties or housing.

In general, I must say that life has not been easy for minorities in the last 25 years in Pakistan but fundamentalists are a curse for all Pakistanis. Hindus is Sindh are not singled out for special treatment like Muslims in several Indian towns are…would you like me to name a few Indian cities:)

#195 bharath

The key is that we are dealing with a culture that simply does not comprehend that it is full of hate. This is the key to understanding the whole situation. It is like dealing with a psychopath who feels no emotion when he kills people. How can you explain to such a person that it is ``wrong`` to kill? Its impossible....

4000 years of history removed systematically and completely!!! Hindu and Buddhist icons and people have been completely erased from Pakistan. But the blinkers of ideology and islam are such that this is viewed as natural and inevitable. The hindus were cunning, devious and backward; so it is good that none are left now. This is the opinion of liberal people!

And these same people give indians lectures on ``human rights``, ``secularism``, gandhi etc. It really boggles the mind !!

I would like you all to respond:

I am for Indiaism where political parties are based not on
religion, caste, etc but on fighting about building roads, factories, etc
Thus I am equally opposed to political Hindu extremism and
political Muslim extremism. And I agree with pmishraji`s concerns
against converting Hinduism to another Islam with its wearing the religion
on your sleeve hyper religiosisity.

BUT HERE IS THE NUB OF THE PROBLEM and NO ONE IS RESPONDING:

PARTITION HAS NOT SOLVED THE ASPIRATIONS OF POLITICAL MUSLIM
EXTREMISM IN THE SUBCONTINENT.
HINDUS ARE WONDERING WHAT EXACTLY THEY WANT?
THIS UNANSWERED QUESTION IS WHAT SUSTAINS HINDU EXTREMISM.

There are two stems to this problem
(1) 100% commited implacable hostility of Pak and BD to
``Hindu`` India; ``we have no life, we won`t let u have either``

(2) 3rd muslim group -Indian Muslims
they have been somewhat (but little somewhat moderate) that`s about it.

Bush came to India praising India , offering a deal that other countries are
jealous of, perhaps muslims in New Delhi, and Lucknow can have more uninterrupted
power supply.

Yet Indian Muslims came out in droves and protested violently because they
are upset with what is going on IRAQ! They had the choices of being Indian Muslims or
Muslim Indians, YET THEY SIMPLY CHOSE TO BE MUSLIMS. Vir Sanghvi points out
that Hindus are bitter about this and BJP`s electoral chances are improving.

I wish 1% of those numbers protested in 1999 when some Punjabi Sunnis hijacked an Indian plane and stabbed a newly wed bride groom.

DMji, swarrier, bjkumar....thanks for all your clarifications.


Ranting and raving in #186 can be given a modicum of respect
if following is the case:
(1) Pakistan`s constituition declares that all human beings are
equal citizens under the constituition

(2) Evidence on the ground that Pakistan is struggling or
trying to implement such a constituition as India has been trying

(3)If there had been efforts to have a 14% Hindu population in
present day Pakistan

(4)If they appoint a Hindu as a President or PM for propaganda
sake (as they consider our Muslim presidents)

(5) If they do anything remotely positive to allow the Indian muslims to
live peacefully with their neighbours...

the list is long......

Recently I read a typical Pak column starting
like this ...Bush ignored all the communal hatred in India and praised
it`s ``secular image``. I emailed the author pointing out the above points.....

SURPRISE, surprise.. he responded that I am a Hindutvadi!

#193 mocambo ..sure sure if it still exists. i also ate some delightful kerala food (no beer served there, waiters wear zari-border dhotis) in a place under bandra highway flyover..steps from bal thakreys house. check it out and tell me what you think.

HP sain..

the nominally hindu (bheels, gujjars and other tribals..not ``caste`` hindus) population strength is in rural sindh as you mention, near rajasthan border. if you notice, there are no riots in rural rajasthan in india either. most riots are in urban centers. in pakistan urban centers, hindus dont take (dare not either) pangas..say burn a cycle to protest marinalization of bengalis.

Re: # 175
Bharath
I cannot add to what you have said. That is what I was trying to write in my missve to Tahmed. We have not been taught anything bad about Pakistan or Muslims in our textbooks. You know how bland our history textbooks are. They sometimes take away any fun. I had left school long before I read more about Kanhoji Angre, Kunjali Marakkar, the battle of Kolachal etc..

And that is a good thing. Impressionable minds should not be subject to any indoctrination. It is better to have people grow up and mature and make their own decisions. Didn`t the Buddha once say, ``Have no guru``.

My only indoctrination ot Hinduism has been I think being taught the Gayatri Mantra at a very young age and a visit to the Sarasvati Temple in Kerala for my Vidya Arambham.
The rest of it , I`m a beef eating Hindu and I couldn`t care less what people think.

Jang
I wasn`t about to give a certificate.-) I merely felt that Tahmed`s questions were out of curiosity. After all under current scientific evidence all of us must have come from Africa. Genetic studies tend to show that. Now a long time ago I tried to trace the origin of Nairs in Kerala by trying to pore over books. The only conclusion I came to was that they landed here from some place and pretty much uprooted (read killed plundered or even maybe by peaceful means which I doubt) the indigenous population. There are two theories of where they came from. Mesopotamia , or a little more far-fetched Nepal. I tend to subscribe to the Mesopotamian theory.

By the way I still owe you a beer and biryani at Mocambo. Some time, eh?

bharath#184:
``But to become friends if one has to accept lies, then it is not worth it.``

I do not accept anyone`s blatant lies, such as those in #186, nor should you; the whole world knows the truth and their attempts to twist facts do not change a thing. Indians are secure enough to admit the imperfections of their system which allows shameful episodes like Gujarat in 2002, Bombay in 1992 and Delhi in 1984. They, on the other hand, have to deny that Sindh has been losing Hindus steadily and want us to accept their ``expertise`` and not the facts and statistics, not even their own newspers. I have met scores of Pakistanis during my nearly 40 years in North America, including two christians, but never a Hindu which in itself is an indicator of sorts. I also know of Sindhi Hindus who left Pakistan because they thought that their daughters and sisters were not safe in the country. Hindus in Pakistan are virtually invisible and inaudible, and I have not seen anything in Pakistan`s Dawn in the last ten years which would suggest otherwise, except for Justice Bhagwan Dass, cricketer Dinesh (``Danish) or a cloth designer. I have met Sindhi Hindus in India who came as visitors and refuse to go back. (On the other hand, I have also met in India some Hindu Pakistanis from Peshawar who have nothing but nice things to say about their ``Taleban`` friends).

But we should not let these lies take us away from the fact that Pakistan is our neighbour and we cannot live in a state of permanent hostility with it. Therefore, we have to distinguish between people like Tahmed who want friendship with India, whether or not they like Indian chowkies, and those who rejoice at chowk at the prospect of bombs exploding all over Indian cities. Such people should best be ignored.

And let`s face it, our own record has been less than perfect. We did everything in East Pakistan what Pakistan is doing in Kashmir and more even though East Pakistan, unlike Kashmir, was not a disputed territory. Our human rights record in Kashmir is nothing to be proud of. And our actions went against our preaching of peaceful resolution of problems whether in Goa or Sikkim.

HP sain,

while i agree that hindu poor in pakistan prolly are no worse off than mulsim poor..muslim poor can participate in political activities like IJI, JUI and other miscellaneous jihadi activities. Some even participare in MQM etc. i have not seen any hindu op-ed writer bitching about anythinig (aka political deissent) in paki newspapers ..for that matter even on chowk, there have not been any such writings.

i am impressed that no writers complain about saffron tiles in public urinals in pakistan.

The many pleasures of being hindu in pakistan...

Lahore witnesses traditional Hindu wedding after 18 years

http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/Asia/20060423/314198.html

Lal said several Hindus had given in to social pressure and converted to Islam or Christianity for better lives, which was why the community`s size had dwindled.

#184 Bharath

On this issue I must unfortunately agree. There will never be any durable peace between the two countries until the Pakistanis first openly admit all the misdeeds they have inflicted through their army and ISI.

Failure to do so means that the mindset is still the same and all peace ``moves`` are simply tactical - mere waiting games till the spotlight moves away - with a deep-rooted desire to return to the old game plan as soon as possible.

I posed a very simple question earlier. I challenged the Pakistani crowds to denounce the 1999 hijacking of IC-814 and the role of their ISI in it. A simple test of the courage.

Nobody among the otherwise ``voluminous`` Pakistanis here has responded.

Not the Tahmeds.
Not the Hate Pots.
Not the Yassers.
Not the Trullies.
Not the Chauhans.
Not the Zeenas.

Fakers one - fakers all!

Or they all simply dropped the ball.

Or never had any to begin with!

They all clammed-up - quieter than an ``izzat-dar`` lady faced with inevitable rape. As if staying quiet somehow preserves the honor.

Perhaps Pakistanis are a very ``honor`` conscious lot.

They even kill for it!

HP sahib,

Let`s analyse the minority positions in the two countries objectively.

First, practise

There are no communal riots in Pakistan becuase minorities have been practically finished off. Hindus and Sikhs constituted almost 20% of the population in what is today Pakistan pre-1947, today they are barely 2-3%. If this doesn`t consist an ethnocide, what does. By contrast the Muslim population has not shrunk post- Partition in what is today India, indeed India receives a million Muslim immigrants from Bdesh every year. This is of course not to say that things are all hunky-dory in India. The Sikh genocide of Nov 1984, the state endorsed killings in Gujarat in 2002 and the burning of Staines were disgraceful incidents that should make every Indians head hang in shame.

Second, theory

Indian Consititution is secular and gives theoretically equal rights to all citizens irrespective of caste and creed. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and by doing so condemns all non-Muslim citizens (including those Muslims the state deems to be non-Muslims) as second class citizens.

Regards

PS: There were two neighbouring countries one with a Hindu majority, the other with a Muslim majority. Both had Muslim gentlemen called Abduls design WMDs for them. One Abdul became the President of his country and an icon for its youth- the other Abdul became a prisoner and a felon in his own land. Would you guess whether the Abdul who became a President came from the Hindu country or the Muslim country.

Too many shots...#186

Error correction:
``they are criminals who kidnap Hindu``
There are....
``Are their no political problems ``
Are there...

#159 by dost-mittar

“The Hindus in Pakistan are too weak to even cry when they hurt. Their situation is worse than that of native Americans who, too, have been decimated in their native land but can at least squeak. What a pathetic fate for the children of Kautalya of Rawalpindi!”


Why is that that time and again I find you lying abt things you have no knowledge abt?

I understand that you cannot overcome your communalism which perhaps is your second nature now but I wanna ask you to post me a single incident after 1947-48 of communal riots in Pakistan whereas, people have even lost count of communal riots in India. It happens so frequently that I guess most of the time it does not even make the news any more.

There are political problems in Pakistan and yes, they are criminals who kidnap Hindu girls too. Is that something India is free of? Are their no political problems in India or muslim girls are not kidnapped in India? Women for women, girls for girls, body for body Indians have raped and killed more Muslims in India than Hindus in Pakistan.

What moral standing you have to say things that in your delusion you attribute to Pakistan while completely ignoring what happens in India. Is this how you justify what goes on with Muslims in India?

There are over 2.5 million Hindus in Sindh alone. Most of them live close to India-Pak borders and if they were so unhappy they would have left Pakistan a long time. Instead the Hindu population in Pakistan has increased from 400K in 1951 to 2.7 million in 1998.

Can you post me some examples of Hindus “who are so weak to even cry”. This is an open world now. Please post something to back your comments or stop lying. Is there any Hindu from Pakistan who spoke to you in your dreams abt not able to cry?

Minorities face problems in every country almost all over the world. Minorities in Pakistan are not in any better situation than in India with a difference that NO National Party in Pakistan professes to eliminate Hindus from Pakistan. Something, we commonly hear in India with follow up action resulting in loss of thousands of live.

I think it is time you check in some hospital for a brain MRI.

DM sirjee.. i am sure tahmed is a real great guy, educated, well-bred and with nice books in his almira. but i dont understand why we should shut him up? i am merely commenting on his posts. i think its important to understand what he has to say without making him a bad guy. if he is keen to prove that everything from nada of a pajama to cow to lion-seal to art of war came from central asia and the greeks, why not? maybe its just idle curiosity, maybe not.

his views about the LOC are irrelevant.

then there is this thing about ``i, mr nice guy, came to chowk thinking we can be friends but then i found out how REALLY foul you folks are``..rather pompous and self-serving IMO.

Re: # 181
#181 by dost-mittar on April 26, 2006 6:16pm PT
>>>>He is very protective of his religion and Pakistan, just as most of us here are about our respective religions and countries<<<<

DMji,
I have respect for you and I hope you will respond. One appreciates desire to establish friendship, setting aside the hatred, etc.

I consider myself a very fair-minded person. But to become friends if one has to accept lies, then it is not worth it. Main point is they have not demonstrated any glorious ideals they talk about and still have the right to criticize India and have different yard sticks for India. GENUINE RECONCILIATION IS UNLIKELY if ``educated`` Pakistanis are like this
(Then one is reminded of the type of ``education`` they receive back home).

I am ready to condemn Modi`s genocide any given moment of my life, but having said that I see dishonesty or probably cognitive disconnect from reality on the part of Pak gentlemen all over this board. One classic lie that aggravates me is that there is brainwashing against each other BOTH in India and Pak, and religious intolerance is the same.

Here is a sample of 2 Pak posts:
ZEENA: In Pakistan there is religious tolerance, where all religions can be practiced.
KAAMI: In Pakistan minorities are not actively persecuted, they are only neglected.

Regards Sir,
I am only trying to learn.

Re: # 179
pmishraji,
I know we have similar thoughts, I enjoyed ur post on your Satyameva Jayathe religion.

``spurious universalism`` perfect phrase for what I see here, and I am amazed !
- synonyms for spurious : counterfeit, bogus, fake, false, forged, inauthentic, phony (also phoney), sham, spurious, unauthentic.

In one thread I read enormous trash on (you know who)`s glorious secularism, humanistic ideals, etc; When asked for even a shred of evidence demonstrated on the ground from day#1 August 14, 1947- the answer is zero, zilcha, nada.

I learned about a scheduled caste hindu gentleman who believed in (you know who)`s secularism but he felt humiliated since they suspected him to be a hindu spy, he returned back to India in 1950.

Also, the same thing applies to soft Islamism- if it is such a glorious thing why isn`t being demonstrated on the ground anywhere? Not a single country.

#181

Tauheed sahib, ye kya maamla hai?

This gentleman makes you sound like almost another Gandhi (sort of)!

For what it is worth, I agree with you on those issues (except for your foolish knee-jerk defense of that utter foolishness called partition and even more foolish reasons advanced in its favor)!

(My feelings on Jinnah are well known to the world by now - filtered or otherwise!)

Jang:

Since this is the time of testimonials, let me repeat my unsolicited testimonial about tahmed32. He and I have been on chowk for a long time. In the beginning he was very friendly towards Indians and Hindus and had only nice things to say about them. If he has changed, the blame lies partly on those of us who have been quite insensitive to the feelings of Pakistanis and Muslims on this website. My own reservation about him in the beginning was that he thought that chowk was a website which was going to bring India and Pakistan together and maybe even make this world a better place. This was his delusion and he is perhaps himelf to blame for having too high an expectation from cyberspace where confrontations are the rule rather than exception.

While his perceptions of India and Indians has undergone changes, he has stuck to some basic stance, such as:

- All relgions, including Hinduism, have the same essential message, which is also the message of the Quran.
- Religion is a personal matter and the state should not be governed by religious laws.
- Pakistan can learn some lessons in democracy from India.
- Pakistan should accept LOC as the basis of a permanent solution of the Kashmir problem.

He is very protective of his religion and Pakistan, just as most of us here are about our respective religions and countries.

pmishra: The fact is that mankind evolved from a common ancestor living in africa. A primate (and not exactly a monkey, although monkeys obviously share a common ancestor with humans). This is hard science, not religious fluff.

What is soft is what you wrote about the above being ``spurious universalim``. What is ``spurious`` about what I wrote above??

And yes, I find Islam to be a perfectly reasonable religion. That no doubt makes me the enemy in your mind - and that is fine. I can live with that. Have a good life.

#177 bharath

You got it right buddy. Totally on the nose. This is why the Amartya Sen`s of the world will not get much respect for their political liberalism from me.

The trick with tahmed goes like this: everything is bathed in spurious universalism (we are all descended from monkeys etc) UNTIL we get to islam. Then islam is special, extremely special, unique etc the basis for all civilization and so on. So in the end its a two track thing: islam vs. vague generalities. In other words, there is nothing worth noting outside of this religion ! But he is a real liberal guy :-)

This is soft islamism. It is the exact analog of soft hindutva (``we believe in everything and are so liberal but sanatana dharma is so unique, compelling, special etc.``).

#174 my ``original point`` - as you put it - were questions in #129 to ijaz gul who is obviously knowledgeable on the subject, that i could not find anywhere else. if you have anything to provide by way of answers to those questions, then i would be much obliged. if not, then i suggest you stop looking for nefarious designs on my part. capiche, mahareesh??

Re: # 159
DOST-MITTAR writes ``The Hindus in Pakistan are too weak to even cry when they hurt. Their situation is worse than that of native Americans who, too, have been decimated in their native land but can at least squeak. What a pathetic fate for the children of Kautalya of Rawalpindi``

There you go. and DOST is no Hindu fanatic.

The author of this article a Tamil Hindu gentleman has written a robust article and uses the phrase ``fascist-controlled Gujarat``. I have never seen a MUSLIM or other ``secular Indians `` condemning what pakistan does in similar robust terms.

Therein lies the irony of ``secularism`` of the sub-continent and the reason behind the emergence of Hindu extremism. This is being described by one Pak arthashastra expert that this is some type of Kautilyan strategy!

Re: # 174
Jang,

in #173 t character has declared himself to be an Indian!
Congratulations buddy!

#171 by swarrier
>>>>>
(#1) But I do find it irritating when Pakistanis on chowk talk about Hinduism as only being monkey worship and cow-urine and human sacrifice.
(2) I suppose you have the same reaction when Indians harp on paedophiles etc in relation to Islam <<<<<

The difference is (#1) above is taught in Pakistani text books to children (#2) is by adult Indians reading these things online.

To set the matters straight:
1. NOWHERE in India it is taught that Muslims are evil people, pedophiles, wife-beaters, etc. While in PAKISTAN STUDIES they are taught all this cunning, sly Hindus, manipulative, etc anti-Hindu hatred and bigotry-DOCUMENTED EXTENSIVELY, ref to my earlier post here

2.NOWHERE in India it is taught that Jinnah is a manipulative charlatan baniya who split the country. The description is neutral, often with a picture of Jinnah and the narrative saying Jinnah led Muslim League and demanded a separate country for muslims, that`s about it.

3. We don`t have Indian ideology studies where we read ranting and raving on anti-Pakistan hostility.

4. Attempts by Hindutva advocates that atrocities by some muslim rulers should be included, etc in the books are being vigorously resisted. (I agree with this, why dig old dirt?)

A PROBLEM RECOGNIZED IS HALF SOLVED. I see charlatans from the ideological state (ironically living in a multicultural secular democracy here) claiming that things are same on both sides of the border. HOPELESS.

No coincidence that we selected as our motto SATHYAMEVA JAYATHE.
Truth ALONE triumphs, and Truth is triumphing.

Look forward to your response.
Warm regards,

#173 yeah..but what about the nada?

and pakstan is an ideological entity, is definately not cradle of any hindu spirituality. the land now occupied by the ideology of pakstan once may have been a cradle of vedas and the imported brahma bull. tahmed, dont get all generalized with we are all humans stuff..stick to your original point with which you are hounding izaz_gul

jang, i got news for you boy. every indian is a ``foreigner`` (to use your term) if you go back around 50,000 years. and...surprise...the three-headed lion is not the only indian icon that came from the west...including the cow (domesticated in c. 9,000 BC in the fertile triangle, moved to india around 8,000 BC). And did I say ``Indian`` - well....the term Indian (from hindu, which is derived from sindhu, which is how people of what is now Pakistan referred to themselves) was developed in what is now pakistan. as for hinduism..er..um...also developed in areas now part of Pakistan - the Vedas dont refer to the ganges at all, they refer to the indus valley area. the mahabharata came a few thousand years afterwards. So, Pakistan is the cradle of hindu spirituality as well. Your Mother India is in fact our Daughter India as far as we Pakistanis are concerned.

so very sorry to break this bad news to you. but dont be disheartened. We are all - not just indians and pakistanis, but the rest of humanity as well - are one family after all!! a dysfunctional, quarrelsome family i will admit, but nevertheless all children of a common ancestor - and, given the common human civilization that is now emerging, this underlying unity of all mankind will undoubtedly become more and more obvious to all.

LOL warrier ..you giving tahmed a ``certificate`` is a chowk-first. he is THE aothority on certificates. good fun ;-)

i am not saying that tahmed claims that their is no history to india, i claim that his contortions (trying to paint indian history to be full of foreigners bringing knowledge and wisdom to a dark continent) are transparent.

tahmed, can you regale us with the story of the pajama and the nada?

Re: # 170
Tahmed

I cannot comment on Pakistani History books, however the ones that I studied from, while at school were those based on the curriculum prescribed by NCERT. Now this reading of history that we had was written shall we say more along the lines of historians like Romila Thapar, D D Kosambi etc. They tend to be leftist in their thinking. The religious differences are played down as much as possible.

In my 10 years of pre-college schooling, I have rarely seen anything mentioned about the Muslim league in a derogatory sense. Pakistan hardly figured in the textbooks except for a few mentions about the 1947 and 1965 imbroglios. You can read various interpretations into any of these but the textbooks are very bland.

Now I went to a Jesuit school. My nieces and nephews who have studied at other schools including the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan`s are still following NCERT textbooks. I don`t know how much has changed since my time but I doubt there has been a great difference. Education in India changes very slowly. I`m pretty sure most textbooks still have nine planets in the solar system.

Except for the 1971 war we hardly thought about Pakistan. That remains in my memory because I used to run out of the house during the blackouts and one of my abiding memories is looking at the anti-aircraft shells exploding in the sky during one of the few times PAF planes approached Bombay. We kids found that to be great fun. Plus I had close relations in the Indian armed forces so it became a bit personal.

In fact after 1971 the only time most of us even thought about Pakistan was during the first set of cricket matches played between the two countries. I`m sure other people have different memories but for most people like me born in the 1960s in Bombay /Madras etc. , Pakistan, Islam , Hinduism et al were far less important than the Emergency and other things.

But I do find it irritating when Pakistanis on chowk talk about Hinduism as only being monkey worship and cow-urine and human sacrifice. I suppose you have the same reaction when Indians harp on paedophiles etc in relation to Islam. I don`t even think some of these chaps are even serious about it. For them it`s a good way to start a quarrel and watch.

I don`t think that everything on chowk is representative of Pakistani and Indian thought either. However what cannot be cured must be endured.

Well, got to run now.

#168 one more thing - while no doubt history in pakistan has been twisted by ideologues, i really dont think it is any more so than has been done in india by their counterparts. given that this ideological nonsense goes on all day on chowk, i wont go further into this beyond inviting you to check out some pakistani tourism websites where you will see pride of place given to the great gandharan and harrapan civilizations. indeed, as i understand even today pakistan is actively collaborating with a US university to apply modern tools to understand the nature of the harrapan civilizaton (whose writing, e.g., remains undecoded even to this day).

#168 thanks for setting the record straight to jang on my behalf. Indeed, anyone can lay claim to not just all of indian history but to all of human history, and my interest goes back not just 5000 years but back tens of thousands, millions, billions of years. Why limit oneself to a narrow slice of time and place when in fact our (common) ancestors started life in the seas about 4 billion years!!

What is muslim history, or even Indian history, anything but a mere blip in the reality that is indeed stranger than any history book any ideologue (indian or Pakistani) could ever dream off?

But for now, I would be happy just to learn more about the mauryan empire given that we have people like ijaz gul who are more knowledgeable than I am on these matters.

Re: # 166
Bongy
The last records of cheetahs in India date back to the late 1940s. I don`t know the exact dates but I remember this bit from my membership in BNHS. It has one of the best wild life libraries in the world. They still exist in Iran though.
There was a move at one time to clone the cheetah at the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad. I don`t know what happened to it.

Jang
Tahmed is a good man. He believes Pakistan has a history that is more than 5000 years old. I`m only puzzled by people who believe that Pakistani history started after Mohammed Bin Qasim. My home state of Kerala had Muslims living in it quite peacefully, long before Bin Qasim came calling.

tahmed is struggling to find anwers more in line with his up-bringing..i.e. india was a land of the stupid and the naked and whatever redeeming features it had/has were imported from the west.

heh heh heh..the tortured soul of the convert.

#165

swarrier, could you tell us about the asiatic cheetah? Till when could one see a cheetah in north/central India?

There are so many moghul miniatures with depictions of Cheetah hunts, which indicates it must have been plentiful. It breaks my heart how it was wiped out.

Re: # 163
tahmed
The asiatic lion species had a habitat that stretched from Northern Greece all the way to Central India. Their current limitation to the Gir forest in Gujarat is much more recent around 1800 or so. There would definitely have been lions roaming the Mauryan empire`s dominions during Chandragupta`s times.

Of course whether the Greeks used the three headed lion as an emblem before the Indians did, depends on whether such an emblem or something was present amongst the Macedonian/Greek buildings, seals etc.

There is a book on Chandragupta by P L Bhargava .

Tahmed,
Arthshastra was basically a reaction to the rigours of Buddism to which Chandra Gupta converted and went into Ahimsa, a fasting penance. Yes the empire was bulit around loose confederations and chequerboard diplomacy revolving around an equilibrium called Mandala (a circle).

More than Greek influence, it is the subcontinent influence that travelled to the West. There are many lines of Homer that correspond to ancient sub continental edits. Les us assume that this was the subcontinental epitome of global dominance. But earlier, two other great civilisations had existed that were perhaps on comparative basis even more advanced.

The first was the Nara Civilisation also called Sarasvati by the Indians. This predates Moen jo Daru and much of it lies buried in the sands of Nara Desert. Last year I explored this area with all this at the back of my mind. The old bed is still there and so are Tarais (oasis) with very old trees.

The second is efcourse the Moen Jo Datu itself that followed at least two thousand years later.

Please read the book, `The Wonder that was India`. Knowledge travelled through trade to eastern europe and middle east. Many milleniums later the same knowledge with a more developed form spread to europe through Arab conquest, and then followed the industrial revolution and rennaisance followed by modernity.

The land central to all this is now in Pakistan and thats why I trace my history to these roots.

I know that this may raise even more questions, but this is how look at it and hence my thesis.

Cheerios

ijaz gul: I raise a number of questions because the Mauryan dynasty has too many questions unanswered - how could a dynasty be so expansive geographically, yet so limited temporally (3 generations)? To what extent was the Arthasasthra - which i understand is a micro-managers dream in terms of detailed procedures - could actually be applied to what appears to have been a vast but loosely united confederation that was the Mauryan empire, and to what extent was it purely academic with limited application in real life?

The section from your thesis that you provide does raise additional questions regarding the nature and extent of relations between the greeks and chandragupta. One specific question I have here is the cultural influence of greeks on the mauryan empire - i was reading in an archaeology magazine that the three-headed lion (a virtual symbol of india) was carried over from the greeks. Thus, even in those days, there were no lions in the Pataliputra area and this three-headed lion makes its debut after the greek invasion. Also, the writer indicated, there were similar statues found from ancient greece that preceded alexander`s invasion. I am curious to learn more on this, and what you would think on this and other cultural influences that the greeks may have had on the mauryans.

perhaps when i am in Pakistan next (which wont be until at least next year) we can get in touch. (I am from rawalpindi as well, like yourself). but in the meantime, i would like if possible to continue this discussion on chowk - i am very much interested in learning more about the maurya dynasty and am hoping to learn more from yourself and others who may have something to add.

Re: # 160

Ijaz_gul

You still haven`t answered my question. Why is the rise of the Saffron Brigade a reflection of the Indian Military Mind?

Tahmed,
By your many serching questions, you are asking me to write a book. Lets meet sometime.
Ijaz_gul@yahoo.com

Sanatani,
``Hindu identity existed withinin diversity for a very long time. Barring South India of antiquity which was not considered part of the Indian empire,``

These are two different issues put togather for brevity. By diversity I explicitly mean the many diffent codes with emphasis on different gods flowing into the mainstream concept of Hinduism.I don`t think I am wrong. This point is much elaborated by Dost in his remarks.

The Indian empire I refer to is the Mauryan Empire

Tahmed and Dost,
For explanation, I will just cut and paste a few portions.

``At that time there were three main empires. The first two were the Nanda and the Chandragupta Maurayan empires while the third and largest was the Greek Empire, which spread from North West India to Asia Minor with its Garrison under Seleucus stationed at Taxila. It was here that Kautilya had picked his Greek knowledge and Chandragupta Mauraya had met Alexander. In 323 BC, on the news of Alexander`s death at Babylon, Chandragupta and Kautilya stirred a revolt with slogans of Nationalism and drove away the Greek Garrison from Taxila. After making alliances of convenience, they than diverted inwards towards Pataliputra. By 325 BC, the Nanda Empire had been overrun, Greeks driven beyond Kabul and Herat and Alexander`s General Seleucu`s daughter taken in marriage by Chandragupta. Except South India, this Kingdom extended from Arabian Sea to Bay of Bengal and to Kabul in the North. The capital was at Pataliputra (Patna). The accounts of such a state are mentioned in the Arthashastra while the Greek ambassador Megasthenes corroborates them in his study.

Jawaharlal Nehru describes this Mauryan Empire as an autocracy with dictatorship at the top. There was a great deal of autonomy ……. and highly prized. This state was modern for its time and well governed. It maintained diplomatic relations with the Greek world including Alexander`s governor Seleucus his successors and Ptolemv Philadelphus. Oxus River in Central Asia provided the link to Europe through Caspian and Black Sea being served by the Silk Roads. In those days Central Asia was rich and fertile whilst the present ecological disaster had not yet set in.

Thus the Mauryan Empire in Kautilya`s time comprised many semi autonomous regions that spanned across south Asia, fused together in an oligarchic or autocratic order, and owed allegiance to the sovereign at Pataliputra. On the external front, this empire dealt with Greeks, Central Asia, Europe, Arabs and Egyptians. Ambassadors came to the court at Pataliputra from Ptolenmy of Egypt and Antiochus. Ashoka added to these contacts and made India a centre of international commerce and Taxila became known as an intellectual centre. It can therefore be inferred that a high level of diplomacy, political economy, trade and international equilibrium was exercised for the order to sustain itself.

The conception of law, in general or the Kautilyan preference for logic, manifests the secular and positive characters of politics, and also has an effect on the legal framework. Usually this legitimacy is accorded to the law by relating it to religion. Thus Kautilya had classified that whenever there was a conflict between religion and rational law, the reason ought to be held authoritative. Thus the suggestion that the king is the sovereign lawmaker is clear. This is one motivating factor for Nehru to have held Kautilya in such esteem``.

I hope I answer many questions and raise many more.

I feel sorry for those many Indians who get irked once they see views of a Pakistani on such subjects and come up with naive and silly remarks. I bet neither Shirin Mazari nor many like her and most many Indians know a hang about Kautilya.

Yes there is a hypothetical Kautilyan State but some other time.

Long Long Cheerios

ijaz_gul#148:

Thanks for sharing your thesis. I, too, am looking forward to your response to tahmed32`s querry. In particular, does Kautalya have anything on succession? It seems that the Hindu kingdoms - in North at least - were not very successful in maintaining dynasties; by contrast, the Mughals were able to rule for three centuries even with fatricidal fights for succession.


bharath#155:
What I find significant about this and other reports is that they are from Christian, Parsee or other Human Rights organizations. The Hindus in Pakistan are too weak to even cry when they hurt. Their situation is worse than that of native Americans who, too, have been decimated in their native land but can at least squeak. What a pathetic fate for the children of Kautalya of Rawalpindi!

#156 by harimau

heh heh..you should be thankful to the DMK massanmuthus that taminadu is not hindi speaking. left to brahmins, it would have been..after all sanskrit is so close to neo-hindi (tatkal reservation e.g.)

you should do a maha-rudra to thank DMK masanumuthus that hindi was repelled. after that poolangi-seva and a good week-long reciting of vishnu-sahastranamam is a minimum display of your gratitude ;-)

Re: # 111

Ijaz_Gul writes:

``Hindu identity existed withinin diversity for a very long time. Barring South India of antiquity which was not considered part of the Indian empire,``

Gulle Shah 2 Points,

The first sentence seems to imply that the Hindu identity did not encompass the South. Nothing could be further from the truth. The great and good Adi Shankracharya was a Namboodri Brahman from Keral. It is he who lead the resurgence of the Sanatan Dharam. The establishment of the various peeths, the reivigoration of science and Sanskrit. And without the Sanatan Dharam (I mean had we remained Budhist) we would have perished before the sword of islam and later christianity.

What is this Indian Empire please enlighten us?

Shri Bharatvarsha was not an empire like the Holy Roman One. It was more a conglomeration of kingdoms that encompasses the Indian Subcontinent + Afghanistan+ Tibet (in which at various times there was an empire ruled by a Chakravarti). So more than an empire it was (for want of a better word) well a subcontinent and the only one of its kind in the world. The Vedas give its depiction from the Karakoram to Himalya to the oceans etc.

It is difficult to explain it in words the essential unity of this subcontinent as a single entity as it had a unique structure. We were and are one people despite our diversity and without being under kingdom flag etc. (e.g. you cannot transalte the french term esprit de corps exactly in another language) however let me try.

It was (and is) an empire of the soul and Dharam (which is not to say there wer no assole`s and no adharam) and a shared ethnic, religous, sociological, geographic, cultural and historical mosaic/feeling/memory/superiority complex etc. (I mean we cared not a fig for the rest of the world see Al Beruni`s works when this spirit was coming to an end).

That was why we could absorb wave after wave of invader and make them Dharam Rakshaks. For those who think that defeating us was a cakewalk read heroic Hindu resistance to Muslim invaders at bharatvani.org

Regards
Sanatani

The triumph of the Brain-Dead in India was the legislation making Hindi the ``National language``.

The ostensible reason was that as the language of the single largest plurality of people, it would enable them to conduct their business with the government.

The idiots who came up with this specious argument conveniently ignored the fact that you need to apply in writing if you are going to deal with the government, or for that matter, with any entity. And of course the greatest number of illiterates are to be found precisely in the so-called Hindi belt. Which meant that the average North Indian would require the services of a ``writer`` to write his petition in Hindi. Well, he could then have employed the writer to write his petition in English!

This was of course lost on the Brain-Dead legislators from North India who outnumbered the rest of India merely because of their pig-like breeding habits. The only happy outcome of this idiotic stand is that North India remains as backward as when the British left India.

Well, we in the South and the West do need chaprasis and cooks and Bihar and UP seem to be capable of supplying a sufficient quantity of them for the rest of India.

Way to go, mufukkas!

Anil Kapuriaji,
refer to my post #138 and then read the news item
below. You need text books on Pakistan ideology studies,
your other request here may be misplaced.

Warm regards,

---

Tuesday April 25, 2006:09 PM
Pak textbooks deride Hindus as astute, sly, or manipulative

Lahore, Apr 25 (ANI): The National Commission for Justice and Peace (NCJP), a Catholic Church body in Pakistan, has said that the country`s media describe India as a `hostile neighbour`, and school textbooks teach the students that Hindus were backward and superstitious who assert their power over the weak, especially the Muslims.

``Government-issued textbooks teach students that Hindus are backward and superstitious, and given a chance, they would assert their power over the weak, especially, Muslims, depriving them of education by pouring molten lead in their ears. Pakistan Studies textbooks are an active site to represent India as a hostile neighbour,`` the report stated.

It added: ``The story of Pakistan`s past is intentionally written to be distinct from, and often in direct contrast with, interpretations of history found in India. From the government-issued textbooks, students are taught that Hindus are backward and superstitious.``

The report further said that students were being taught that Islam brought peace, equality, and justice to the subcontinent, ``to check the sinister ways of Hindus``. ``In Pakistani textbooks, Hindus rarely appears in a sentence without adjective such as politically astute, sly, or manipulative,`` the Daily Times quoted the NCJP report as saying.

The NCJP has come out with the report following an appeal from several minority communities that the media and educational boards were biased against them and that the federal government should take note of this seriously.

Quoting a news article, the report said: ``Textbooks reflect intentional obfuscation. Today`s students, citizens of Pakistan and its future leaders are the victims of these partial truths``.

They cited numerous several other media reports and content in textbooks in this regard, which suggested that the country`s socio-political system was against the minorities` interests and addressed them by derogatory terms.

The NCJP monitored four major national Urdu dailies from August to October 2005 and found extremely provocative news reports, statements and editorials against religious minorities including Christians, Hindus, Ahmadis and even Jews.

The Commission said that a common hate speech method is the use of derogatory terms for minorities. Citing examples, it said that Ahmedis are called `Qadiani` or `Mirzai` while Christians are called `Isai`. Until some years ago, these terms were not even considered derogatory, it added.

According to the paper, MP Bhandara, a parliamentarian belonging to a minority community, wrote a letter of protest to an editor of a national daily last year but it had no effect on the newspaper`s policy. (ANI)

Re: # 148

Ijaz Gul Sahib:

Is it possible to read you M.Sc. thesis on Kautilya`s Arthashastra?

Anil Kapuria

Re: # 142

Rakesh:

So right you are. I have a personal experience in Chennai (those days Madras) of money makes people talk. In late 80s I was in Chennai, and had taken a taxi to go to meet someone from my hotel, Taj Coromandel (?). The taxi driver when I reached the destination, would only talk in Tamil, no English no Hindi. I cold not eve find out the fare amount that I must pay. In exasparation, I told him in Hindi that I will pay twice of what he is asking.... in a flip he started speaking in tooti-phooti Hindi, and I did pay him twice what he was asking.

Betterment more than business is the reason for all of us to learn something new, be it English, Hindi or anyother language. My niece is married a Tamil Brahmin, and has become quite proficient in understanding Tamil. They live in Bangalore, and had met each other when her husband lived in Delhi.

Anil

Re: # 144

India, like Switzerland, does not need a national language.

In my view in another 25 to 50 years, there would be two main languages in India - North Indian ishstyle English, and Southie yestyle English. I have seen the evolution of Hindi over the last 40 years, especially the last 15 years the evolution has been remarkable.

Bollywood, Chennai wood, and ``IT jee ka Mandir`` will take of this fusion, and all other languages will remain regional.

Anil Kapuria

Re: # 144

India, like Switzerland, does not need a national language.

In my view in another 25 to 50 years, there would be two main languages in India - North Indian ishstyle English, and Southie yestyle English. I have seen the evolution of Hindi over the last 40 years, especially the last 15 years the evolution has been remarkable.

Bollywood, Chennai wood, and ``IT jee ka Mandir`` will take of this fusion, and all other languages will remain regional.

Anil Kapuria

ijaz gul #147 That doesnt add too much on what Kautliya wrote and his impact on chandragupta maurya. I humbly await feedback (even if it is to tell me that you dont have any views on them) on my questions in #129. Cheers. :-)

re#148 >>>>`Checkerboard Diplomacy`. ....
I hope it hurts no one`s ego. least that of Bharath.

No it doesn`t actually!

Other checkerboard diplomacies are being effectively used.
If not effective more will be invented.
A-spot aka Karzai insults
B-spot (u know that well!)
C-spot :decreasing the water flow in Chenab.

You name it.
Cheerios:)

Dost,
This is a part of my Thesis.

``Whatever the case, with time, Kautilya has begun to find more universal relevance and acceptance. Like Clausewitz who was dealt an early blow by