Ba, Beti aur Bahu

Inquirer#55:

No, I am not related to PD Tandon, nor do I relate to his obscurantist views. This does not, however, take away from the fact that he had democratically defeated Nehru`s favourite candidate, the socialist Kripalani, for the post of the Party President and his dismissal was not a democratic act. It also shows Nehru`s disdain for the views of the ordinary Congressmen as he went on and imposed his socialist model on the country.


harimou#55

I think that you are missing your timing by a few years. While India`s financial situation was not good during the Rajiv period, it became desperate only during the time of the VP Singh govt. when the Finance Minister Dandavate declared that the cup was empty and the Reserve Bank had to mortgage its gold reserves. The conditionalties were imposed by the Bank during the Rao-Manmohan period which resulted in reformation. As an aside, the people in the World Bank were in cahoots with the Finance Ministry people in India and basically prescribed what the Finance people wanted to do but could not force their prescription on their political masters.

BTW I have met Jairam Ramesh as well as read the columns he wrote under the name Kautalya in India Today. I dont think he is ideologically on the opposite end of Mani Ayer in the Congress and not a socialist by any means.

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Ref Dost-Mittar various posts:

It should be obvious to any student of history that India was dragged kicking and screaming to economic reforms by the IMF and the World Bank. When India`s foreign exchange reserves were down to cover just two weeks` worth of imports, Rajiv G@ndu asked for a $5 billion loan from the IMF. The IMF imposed stiff conditions. Having got his nuts in the iron grip of the IMF, Rajiv had no choice but to agree. If he had a little bit more leeway, he would have continued to follow the socialist policies of his mother and grandfather and bankrupted the country. Pretty much the position then of the US was similar to their position with respect to Pakistan today: they couldn`t allow a country with nukes to go bust, though they didn`t quite phrase it that way.

You could still see that idiot Jairam Ramesh spouting socialist nonsense today.

Ref Zeena various posts:

Sonia Gandhi is being propped up by people such as Kapil Sibhal, Ambika Sony, Jairam Ramesh, Mani Shankar Aiyar (just to name a few) who on their own merit won`t get elected dogcatcher. They hoped to -- and did -- ride her coattails to ministerial positions. If these chamchas were to be shot dead, there would be no dynastic rule in Delhi. If the punishment for being seen near Sonia Gandhi and her despicable brood of half-caste cretins is death, you could be sure that Sonia would be sitting inside her house not daring to show her face outside. If she is loved by all Indian people as the idiots on Chowk claim, why does she need Category Z protection? She would be blown to bits just like her worthless husband Rajiv G@ndu or her mother-in-law who met her just fate at the hands of brave Sikhs.

There are 25 states (give or take a couple) in India. There are people who get elected to various positions based on stuff other than family connections. Dynastic rule is peculiar to stupid North Indians and the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu. Sonia Gandhi has allowed Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion to try to pass on Tamil Nadu to his son so that her son could become Prime Minister of India one day. Even Biharis had the brains to throw out Lalloo Prasad Yadav in recent elections and elect Nitish Kumar in his and his cow of a wife`s place.

#48 Zeena

Your nice long interact has me completely floored. Your energy and enthusiasm need to be commended by one and all. Your arguments contain a freshness which markedly contrasts with the tired-old arguments being used here (both by writers and interactors) for the last one thousand years or so!

You make many points - too many for me to cover in this interact. But you must hold those thoughts! And keep up the hope.

There is a brighter tomorrow.

Just Around the corner.

And let nobody - especially nobody over thirty - make you think othrwise!

They are no wiser - they simply put on the airs!

Farzana Versey sahiba

Democracy needs to be flourished with regular consecutive elections. Static democracy leads to monarchy, which is the homicide for true democracy. My whole point is , there is no true democracy in India and same is for Pakistan. Democracy needs ULTRAFILTRATION to filter weeds out of the main stream and let the main stream run the politics. Let the real political gems shine.

Why same families hijacking the true democratic system of these countries? Why not new faces? Why not new breed from average middle class families with new bright ideology?

Yes, we can never have an ideal democracy,but even if, it is true only more than 40% I will buy it at any cost.

It is not necessary to live in some country to grasp the root cause of the issue. Democracy is an internationally recognised virtue for the people and by the people by the process of constant ultrafiltration called elections to filter bad apples for good ones. Democarcy is to show sincerity for the people and by the people.

Now, who are the people? Yes, people are you, people are me, people are they. People are us. People are people, neither rich nor poor. True democracy doesn`t judge people by their HEIRARCHY.

At the end, my main stand is generations of Exclusive political clans are death for democracy. Either choose privileged clans or democracy. Both are each other`s opposites. opposites.

Thank you for your nice interaction # 49.

Since most of you have delved on -- and opposed my views on Sonia -- I can only re-post an excerpt from what I had written here earlier (sorry, but been there, done it, so can`t help it): Can Pasta Become Paratha?

Yet we need to look at the flipside, however limited be its appeal. Sonia Gandhi certainly has more of a right to speak on behalf of the country than the NRIs. Recently there was a ‘Pravasi Divas’ and about 1200 “dil hai Hindustani” hearts made their way from 61 countries to hold forth on the issues regarding their place of birth. A sprinkling of Lords, lobbyists and lightweight movers and shakers from foreign shores spoke about where India could go. With their investments being a mere 3.78 per cent of the Indian economy, they were discussing where we were going wrong.

They also tell us about exit policies, about Gujarat, about Hindutva, about secularism. The BJP government is talking about giving them voting rights. Lord Meghnad Desai went to the extent of saying that this is not about emotionalism. His mantra was, “Let’s talk business.”

By this logic, Ms. Gandhi is doing precisely that. If she became a citizen of this country years after her marriage, the expatriates are not even that. If we wish to permit them to cast their vote, knowing full well that they will do so only on the basis of what they get ‘materially’ out of the deal, then why not a person who lives here?

Let us examine the arguments against her:

1. She is a foreigner.

She was. Her Hindi is bad but then her English is even worse than Uma Bharati’s. Besides, India is not merely the Hindi belt. This is the country where the ‘bahu’ is co-opted and made to adhere to the in-law’s culture. She has adopted Indian ways. And when we are flaunting a Praveen Togadia, who came in from the cold, and who is shoving Hindu heritage down our throats, why must we have a problem with a woman who talks about ‘Bharatiya parampara’, Indian culture?

2. She has no experience to take over as PM.

True. But a post is merely that: it is the person who makes of it what s/he will. Rajiv Gandhi came straight from the cockpit of an aircraft to the hot seat. We have several people in charge of portfolios they have no clue about. When Manmohan Singh, who revolutionised the liberalisation movement, took over as finance minister, he had no ‘political’ experience and had not contested elections or worked at the grassroots level. There are people with police cases against them who are ministers.

There is the insinuation that with Sonia at the helm the defence of the country could be endangered. We will have to go back to Tehelka and see who has been caught with their hands greasy and in situations where the security of the nation could be at risk. And can we forget the Indian patriot George Fernandes and his infamous coffin deal? In the film ‘LOC Kargil’, it is amusing to hear Bofors being praised several times. “That Bofors is a damn good gun,” is the refrain. Irony or more?

3. She has not encouraged a second-rung leadership.

Unfortunately, those of some merit like Madhavrao Scindia and Rajesh Pilot are no more. The dissenters are essentially rebelling for their personal gains. Besides, what second-rung does the NDA have? There are smart and savvy politicians like Arun Jaitley, Arun Shourie, Pramod Mahajan, Sushma Swaraj, Uma Bharti, but put them up as PM candidates and watch what happens. The BJP has only Vajpayee as their USP.

The Congress may not think Sonia is a great selling point, and they have conveyed it. I personally do not think she is worth it, but we need to see the options. Especially when the fight this time might turn ugly. There was a report in the papers that someone had filed a case against Rahul Gandhi under the Immoral Traffic Act, because he was with his girl-friend at a Kerala resort together with his sister and brother-in-law!

This is nasty and hypocritical when leading ministers of the ruling party are running roughshod over these same moral values. What happened to Gopinath Munde and his tamasha artiste affair? To Pramod Mahajan and the Shivani Bhatnagar murder case? To the defence minister who permits a special lady to accept bribes in his house? To the open live-in arrangement in Uttar Pradesh? And we will not even get into the qualified rumours about many others. These are private matters and public figures must look into the mirror occasionally.

(And, since Nehru is not the main subject I will only provide you with a link: Redicovery of Nehru)

Zeena:

While I cannot go along with your comparison of India and Pakistan, I do understand the cynicism about democracies as they are practised. It is only when you live in the countries mentioned that you understand it adequately. The right to vote and holding elections regularly do not necessarily mean a thriving democracy. In fact, the more elections there are, the greater the scope for corruption, meting out favours, sycophancy.
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Inquirer:

You are right -- we will not be able to convince each other, but I do not think that is the aim of every discussion. Thanks for your comments in #18, though; one does try and make an effort to further a dialogue. However, your later comment -- in another context I should hope -- `` I would have substituted intellectual in your sentence by `idiotic``` was in poor taste.

I do not think anyone with any sense here or elsewhere tries to promote themselves as intellectuals; the problem is with others who throw these epithets and then hold people to scrutiny.

It is time some interactors desisted from their constant insinuations. There really is more to a discussion than `complicity`.

Re: # 49, Farzana:
Thanks for parting company with understanding!

Inspite of Sonia Gandhi`s disqualifications, she has established herself as an Indian and has shown her desire and work to strengthen India.

It is upto India to give recognition to a foreigner who truly converts to India and I am happy that Indian Electorate has honored a person who has so far been operating for the improvement of Indian Democracy.

I would like to express my support to you for actively controlling the quality of interactions at Chowk. Yes Chowk is not the Civil Lines, nor is it desired to be, but some interactors just do not have either the desire or ability to conduct a civil - if not, sophisticated - dialog.

Like Nehru you are faced with the dilemma of either allowing only civil people in Chowk or letting the incivil have chance to show their colors and ultimately be at least exposed to a possible improvement. I hope like him you may be able to climb some rungs of success!!!!

PS: It might be useful for understanding if we introduce indications of age of an interactor. May be there could be an identifier like: A for 1925-1950, B for 1950-1975 and C for 1975-2000. Pretty soon a D may be needed for 2000-2025!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, such identification will lead to greater understanding among the interactors.

#47 bjkumar

bjkumar sahib jii

Namastey/Hi
How you doing?

First of all thank you for your thought provoking and informative interactions. I enjoyed reading`em. If I say you are genuinely intellectual interactor, it won`t be surprising to you either,b/c you know you`re! Just a compliment.

Now, you raised some good concerns about current Pakistani political issues. I agree with you for all those concerns. I will try to answer your concerns,but I guess the topic of this article is Mrs. Sonia Gandhi and Indian politics, Not Pakistani. I assume we can use Pakistani politics for comparative purposes, but absolutely not for the sole purposes.

I used term HIJACKING for connotation and you clearly know that. Yes, I call brainwashing as hijacking of the minds of people.
Just like fanatics from any religion hijack any religion just for their own selfish motives, similar ways corrupt politicians and army can hijack people for their own motives. There is never any sincere intentions behind that.

Majority of Pakistani peoples minds are hijacked by the same feudal pseudo politicians which are the same politically illitrate feudal clans trying to rule Pakistan for generations.
In my opinion sincerety is the basic rule of a true politics i.e. for the people, by the people.

In Pakistan, Yes we do have sincere politicians and more will be seen in future, if political ultrafiltration won`t stop. For now Pakistani democracy is static due to Martial law And it is not very suitable environment for true democracy to be flourished for the people. Any object will be static if that particular object is not moving relative to it`s surroundings. So, currently Pakistan`s democracy and ultrafiltration to filter the weeds and moles is static.We can just hope for better future...............

Pakistan is just 50 years old and India is here for centuries with all the true democracy , rich culture and good working governance.


Now, Indian democracy is free from all clutches of Army and fanatics and like you said, Indian democracy is the best and politicians uphold the true values of democracy that is for the people and by the people.

Then Indian democracy should be flawless. But, what I am seeing here is just opposite, why Indians need Ghandi`s clan to rule India and now Mrs. Sonia Ghandi who is not even Indian.

Why I am seeing a static political ultrafiltration in India? Why Indians are stuck with Ghandi`s clan? Why Indian politics is not moving with it`s surroundings? This is big Indian politicial stigma.

India is highly populated country, why still unable to filter the weeds and moles?

On the contrary what I see in Pakistan is Pakistan army (even though I am not in favour of any martial law) did get rid of majority of today`s corrupt politicians as a successful experiment, this brings some velocity towards political destiny for the people of Pakistan and got some success to filter some seasoned politically illitrate pseudo politicians and to break the feudal clans. I must say that did bring some young , sincere and qualified politicians up surface.

If, democracy is not halted and is not hijacked by exclusive clans then bad apples can be replaced with good ones. But, when same privileged clan rules through generations, people are left with no choice but, to replace bad apples with bad apples.

In my opinion, bad apples must not be replaced with bad apples with new polish which will end up to be bad again. These are the dangers of Monarch democracy which is prevalent in India. If, you just close the eyes and close your ears, reality doesn`t change, unless you really find the courage to face it.

My stand on this discussion is crystal clear. Nice interacting with you. Will love to discuss other topics with you on other boards for sharing informative views. Till then Bye and take care.

#43 by Zeena

Zeena, hijacking is done by force - when the population comes along willingly, you can call it their mistake but not hijacking. When people choose their leaders by exercising their free-will then that IS democracy - no matter how awkward or irregular the results.

You blame the army, corrupt politicians, Bhutto clan and the rest for the current problems of Pakistan. Fine. But are there ANY good leaders in your country?

If no, why is it that there aren`t any?

If yes, why is it that they can not get elected?

Just something to think about - this bahanebaazee is not going to work!

Also, Pakistan is no younger than India - they used to be the same country so they are equally old.

There is absolutely no reason why the young generation of Pakistanis should expect, shoot for, or settle for anything less than the young generation of Indians! Not a single reason!!!

It is their perfect right, their legitimate privilege, and perhaps their duty to accept nothing less!!

(Hint: start out by throwing away and discarding all that you have been taught be the ``older`` generation!)

#45 DM-jee

I was unaware of those political activities of Nehru that you list here. There may be truth in saying that many of these were precedent setting.

However, let us get real. Such activities did not make him a dictator. He did many things which were by their nature precedent setting for the young democracy. For example, the concentration of power in prime ministership may have been his doing too - for all I know.

Was there anything in what he did which broke the rules written down in the constitution? No.

Did he ever exceed his mandate? No.

Did he ever try to rewrite the constitution for personal gain? No.

Did he try to impose his progeny as the crown prince/princess? No.

In retrospect, sure he did not do every thing that he could have done. He had his socialist vision - back then I believe he was not the only one - but his vision was an honest one - which is a lot more than can be said of the current Indian reds. He was impetuous perhaps - his blind trust in the Chinese turned out to be a major blunder and their opportunistic attack robbed the country more than a few thousand square kilometers of land - it also robbed this great man of his well-earned few additional golden years.

Make no mistake about it - he was a clean person with a clean conscience! Among the last few of a rapidly diminishing line which would shrink quickly - with only a few then left who could perhaps be counted using the fingers of one hand.

And then there were none!

I refuse to kow-tow to this crowd of ``intellectuals`` which knows not even how to spell names in its sneaky attempts to revise history for meeting any particular agendas or objectives.

Somewhere, somebody may bump into a few, if only a few, qualms of conscience for hurling crap on individuals who lived for the country and died for the country and lived through example - unlike those who followed them!

Simple as that!

bjkumar#34:

Wikipedia does not guarantee accuracy. I can say for sure that this contributor is totally unknown as a contributor outside of chowk.com, either under this nick or my real name, Nand Tandan. Veeresh Malik and Harish Nambiar, on the other hand, could have been mentioned as Indian journalists.

BTW, Nehru was not as great a democrat as he is made out to be and one does not have to name ``unmentionable`` names to show this. He forced Purushottam Das Tandon to resign from the duly elected post of the Presdident of the Congress Party as soon as his mentor, Patel died. This sent a clear signal to everyone that anyone with a different approach than his own had no place in the Party. More damaging was his dismissal of the Kerala govt. which enjoyed a clear majority in the state legislature. He thereby set the precedent of the Centre dismissing state govts. that it did not like. It was the dismissal of state governments in Punjab and J&K by Indira Gandhi which started the separatist movements in those two states.

Re: # 45, D-M:
Are you related to Purshottam Das Tandon?

Your mention of PD Tandon is very interesting. I am sure you would have a different interpretation of what I am going to say. But let me present it.

PD Tandon was one of the most revivalist figures in the Indian Freedom Movement. He was almost single handedly responsible for foisting the biggest problem that free India has faced. He had engineered the passage of the Congress resolution recommending Hindi as as the Official Language of India. This was done by actively opposing Nehru`s policy of developing all languages equally. As one can infer, it meant an internal challenge to the leadership of the Congress and the Nation. Hindi was adopted by the Congress Party by 78 for to 77 against. It is universally recognized that this foolish act of Congress which was unanimously adopted by the National Constituent Assembly has led to division of Indian People and what is more unfortunate of Hindus. Thus Tandon hurt his own cause more than anyone else!

I always wondered how a lightweight like Tandon could exercise such a powerful influence . Now from your post I have the satisfaction that he was fully justifiably at least punished even though he succeeded in in doing irreparable damage to Free India.

Sorry for typo in #43
My expectations from India......