Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

#190 by Urstruly

... could a Quadiani please shed light on some of the reforms that he proposed.

Sattar2 stated these briefly as follows:

Mirza Sahib emphasized teachings of forebearance and humility from Quran ... and explained that there was no need for fighting jihad. He too laid emphasis on piety and patience in face of violence and propaganda.

Your comments?

#189 Nasah

A very bitter pill, in blunt language - but unfortunately, how true it is!

I have often heard from Quadianis that Mirza Sahib was a reformer of the religion; could a Quadiani please shed light on some of the reforms that he proposed.

Re: # 187

tshah -- nothing to be surprised -- that is ingrained in the Muslimness Genome --

today`s persecuTED Muslims -- tomorrow`s persecuTORS of other Muslims -- like clockwork -- like the night following the day -- yesterday`s Persecuted Bengali Muslims today`s Persecutors of Bihari Muslims -- Yesterday`s Persecuted Iraqi Shias today`s persecutors of Iraqi Sunnis.....

you provide the Muslims with the phenotypic majority -- and see how their persecution juice starts flowing like a Niagra....irrespective of who they are ........if they don`t have minorities to persecute -- they will create minorities -- same with the persecution of women.

may be today`s Ahmedi pussy cats -- will also `grow` -- into tomorrow`s Maneaters -- who knows -- but right now they are the relatively the most sophisticated, civilized, intellectualized, gentle, low key Muslims that inhabit the planet --

if for anything -- it is difficult to forgive a person like Zab for what he did to peaceful Ahmedis -- yet it was his ingrained Muslimness -- that couldn`t get enough of minority Hindus to persecute -- so he had to create another minority from his Muslim majority -- to satisfy his inborn -- `muqtazaaye tubeetush` -- fetish......

Something to ponder over from last year....


BERKELEY CONFERENCE TACKLES PAKISTAN MINORITY ISSUE

The University of California at Berkeley’s Center for South Asia Studies held its “20th Annual South Asia Conference” at International House on February 11 and 12, 2005.
During this two-day affair which drew students, scholars and academics with an interest or expertise in the South Asian region, topics as diverse as “Space, Place and Gender in Indian Film and Literature” to “Gendered Violence: Notes from the Postcolonial Present”
generated a great deal of interest. And one of the sessions, “Who is Muslim? Religion and Politics in Pakistan Fifty Years after the Munir Report (1954)” covered an area which pertained to Pakistan specifically. And since a report on the full conference was not possible due to this writer’s inability to be there for two days, this one session will be focused on here.
Chaired by Tariq Rahman, Quaid-i-Azam Chair Pakistan Studies, UC Berkeley the panel which addressed this issue and a lot more was made up of Matt J. Nelson of the Political Science Department at Bates College, Najeeb Jan from the History Department at the University of Michigan and Robert Rozehnal, Dept of Religious Studies at Lehigh University. The Discussant was Erik Jensen, Co-Director of the Rule of Law Program at Stanford University Law School.
With such academic luminaries present and their more than adequate introduction by panel chair, Dr. Tariq Rahman, the main topic (for those that are not aware of it) pertained to religious practices and policies in Pakistan of which the “Ahmadi Question” that the Justice Munir Report in 1954 was the focus area. This along with subsequent declarations of Ahmadis as non-Muslims by the Government of Pakistan in 1974 and the 1980’s blasphemy laws instituted during the Zia Regime have impacted not only the Ahmadis but the social and political fabric of Pakistan.
Starting with the topic of “Making Muslims: Madrasas and the Meaning of Modern Education in Pakistan” Matt Nelson painted a realistic picture of religious thinking in which matters of State also came into play. The boundaries of Islam constituted in the context of Education and parental thoughts on religious education (in Baluchistan, Punjab and the NWFP provinces) were a part of his study. Nelson asked if these boundaries addressed the current sectarian differences in Pakistan and “Can Ahmadis be called outside this definition?” But beyond the questions he had a great deal to add that Pakistani policy makers today may find very useful. Nelson found in interviews he conducted that people in Pakistan give a very high priority to the religious education of their children, along with their other education. But as the Munir Report had mentioned neither the State or ordinary people are in a position to resolve religious differences, Nelson called to attention the “Elephant in the Living Room,” on differences in the sectarian religious practices within Islam that continue to impact Pakistan. He said that this elephant has to be discussed, but it is not. And as Pakistan heads towards “Moderation” today, Nelson called for an open discussion on this subject within Pakistani society and the teaching of religious and sectarian differences in schools at an early age so that the issue can be grappled with more effectively. In other words (and not necessarily on the Ahmadi issue) he recommended open discussion on religious differences as a path towards moderation in Pakistan instead of ignoring them and leaving others to dictate policy. He hinted that this path of open discussion, instead of the competing efforts by the Maulanas to define the Umma (the Muslim Family) could be more beneficial for the country (the Shia-Sunni and other differences being accepted without discussion and prone to emotion do lead to strife).
Najeeb Jan next went into some depth into the topic of “Of Momin’s and Kafirs: Legislative Exorcism and the Deoband Anti-Ahmadia Movement,” in which he also touched on the recent emphasis on Deobandi thought because of its reported links to the Taliban. “Boundaries negotiated by acts of violence,” were not the best way of resolving issues, he said. He added that one of the Deoband’s major achievements is considered to be the ouster of the Ahmadis from mainstream Islam. Jan spoke briefly about the 1974 to 1986 period in Pakistan during the Z.A. Bhutto and General Zia era and the rising influence of the Ulema in the country since then, of which the Anti-Ahmadi movement was a major step. He said that fundamentalists could not have appeared on the landscape except in this modern age where the new “Philosopher Kings” are the Ulema. A subjectivity Map of a formal Islamic/Muslim nomenclature in Pakistani society was also presented dealing with Deoband, Barelvi Tableeghi Jamaat, Ahle Hadith, Wahabi Jamaati (Maududi) and various Shia Groupings including the Bohri, Twelver Shia and the Ismaili along with the Sufi-Naqshbandi and Chishti orders. The Ahmadis were placed in an outside circle. The Pakistani political landscape including its Islamist political parties were touched upon. It is interesting to note that 90% of Pakistani voters do not vote for the religious platform. The history of Deoband and its influence from Shah Waliullah to the Deeni Madrasa’s today along with the 1953 anti-Ahmadi riots, the Taliban destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas in 2001 also came under discussion.
The last panel presentation was by Robert Rozehnal who spoke on “Narrating Tragedy: The Politics of Sufism in Pakistan.” Robert pointed out that Sufism is a highly debated subject as part of the reality of Pakistan as a modern Muslim state. But his main focus in this session was the tragedy that took place at Baba Farid’s annual Urs at Pakpattan in Punjab where a stampede killed over a 100 people in April 2001. The Chishti Sabiri Murids (disciples) tried in their own way to make sense of this tragedy while blame went all around, including fingers pointed at local police authorities. The Government blamed the disciples for the stampede, raised issues about whether this was real Islam and stated that police had just been overwhelmed by an unruly mob. Since one of the children that died was from the family that heads the shrine, a Karbala-like scenario was linked to this tragedy. And in these various viewpoints and interpretations of the sad event, Rozehnal was able to share with us a significant insight into the religious, social and political aspects of Pakistani society.
The job of a discussant is never easy. Erik Jensen expressed his own views on the three presentations and raised some questions of his own on the subject. Dr. Tariq Rahman had questions of his own and ended with some interesting thoughts. The question and answer session seemed painfully short for the length and breath of the issues highlighted here but since the “elephant in the living room” idea prevailed, nobody really directly approached the Ahmadi question. Most of the questions asked, remained academic in nature and did not get into details of beliefs.
Since the subject generates strong emotions from many readers, as a reporter, this was certainly a difficult assignment. But let me just close here with what Dr. Rahman said in his concluding remarks and add to them if I can. Dr. Rahman asked this question: “What kind of state should Pakistan be?” Should it be an Islamic (Ulema dominated) country or a (modern) Muslim country?
Let us just add to that. Since most Pakistani Muslims do not accept the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian as Muslims, should the state of Pakistan also officially endorse that view? And beyond the differences in religious beliefs, how should a modern Muslim state handle the social and cultural ramifications of excommunicating a group of people from a religion? Justice Munir in his report had tried to address that issue. But a question that has always been difficult to think about is not about religion but about a nation. We have talked about Government defining who is a Muslim. But how does it go about defining a Pakistani?

Ras H. Siddiqui

2-20-05

Re: # 179

Nasa

One wonders why Shias, who are themselves a persecuted minority in Pakistan, supported the Mullah in their anti-Ahmadi movement. But the fact is even the liberals who had become anti-Bhutto supported the Mullah against him as they thought that Bhutto would never agree to the demand for declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslim and as such the resultant clash would be a double kill for them. But Bhutto in his extreme lust for power played smart and tried to turn the table on the Mullah by doing the very unexpected of him by turning the Constitution into a `Fatwa` against Ahmadis. It was in fact all dirty politics in which Islamic sword of `Takfeer` (declaring people infidel) was used liberally by both sides. Both of them boasted of victory but as usual the Mullah got the better of Bhutto and got him hanged by a pseudo_Islamist usurper Zia. The same dirty game is going on with the addition of terroristic carnage in the name of Islam and `Jihad`. May God save Islam and Pakistan from the sectarian Mullah and the self-seeking politicians.

Ref nazarhayatkhan #31

[But the ahmedis should not worry too much about it. they are not alone. there are voices which say that shias are non-muslims. Qazi hussain Ahmed says Ismailis are non-muslims. Talibans say that any one who is not like the Arabs of 6th century is non-muslim.

soon, majority of Pakistanis will be non-muslims!]

I do hope they don`t petition to join India!

#178 by Raw_Dust <<< masadi sahib:
trying to secure a checkmate with one and only Q for Queen could get very tricky sometimes. That is why Knight comes in handy sometimes or a curiously placed pawn here and there like Sattar sahib deftly put Ayesha bibi around and then he dealt with your Quran to deliver a stunning stalemate. better luck next time. :-) >>>>

Unfortunately for you and the rest of your thuggish gang, he could only present a distortion and contrived meaning ( contrived through his ideology) of the Quran, a book I happen to know quite well.

#174, Khamkhwa,
And finally, you useless personal chapparkhanatia of a chaprasi,
You never heard of Ayesha Baker, the female rap artist from Chicago? Boy, is there anything you bears do in Canuckistan except for hibernating?

http://alhafeez.org/rashid


Now Listen to this conversation:

an interesting enquiry

another interesting exchange

#174, Listen, you idiot, as Shias, we have a license to question her motives against Hazrat Imam Ali. Also, in Islam there is no official post for Mrs. Prophet - except for the first and real one of his wives - Hazrat Khadija. :)

Learn your Islamic history first, then come here and debate about issues. Meanwhile, instead of being my personal chaprasi, following me around all over Chowk, go to school and get some sorely-needed education.

#174, Khamkhwa {``...lest some of you are taken in by this charlatan about respect to the holy prophet...here is what he said about holy prophet`s wife ayesha bint abu bakr on unplugged... ``}

Folks,
As my personal chaprasi, Khamkhwa, just validated, she did advertise on shadi.com.

#167, IB ``@Mohar ,
in Rajistan ( and correct me if I am wrong ) they passed a law which will prosicute anyone who changes his / her religion - whats happening in `secular bharat` ?``}

This really makes me mad. Home come these bloody Indians always pass these nice laws when it`s too late - about about 340 years too late for me? :(

one of the clinching EVIDENCES that Ahmedis are INDEED Muslims -- and not Hindus, not Christians, not Zoroastrians, not Buddhist, not Sikhs not African animists --

....is

....that they are hated by -- persecuted by -- maligned by -- -- harmed by -- killed by -- denied Muslimsness by -- their mosques destroyed by -- their two fellow Muslim sects:

the Shias and the Sunnis -- in the same Islamic manner of sectarian hatred -- that the Shia and the Sunnis -- employ against each other -- persecute each other -- malign each other -- harm each other -- kill each other -- deny Muslimness to each other -- and destroy historical and non shistorical mosques belonging to each other....

my advice to my Ahmedi friends -- assert your Muslimsness -- by doing everything to the Shias and the Sunnis -- that hey have done to you -- in the best traditions of Islamic fratricidal Hadithic and post Hadithic history....

... then and then only -- your other Muslim Brethren will accept you -- as their equal -- as an authentic truly `good` glorious Muslims....

....in fact what is true Muslimness wthout sectarian hatred and bloodshed?.........it is pussy cat Buddhism

.....and Ahmedis ARE pussy cat Muslims

masadi sahib:
trying to secure a checkmate with one and only Q for Queen could get very tricky sometimes. That is why Knight comes in handy sometimes or a curiously placed pawn here and there like Sattar sahib deftly put Ayesha bibi around and then he dealt with your Quran to deliver a stunning stalemate. better luck next time. :-)

Still Kaafir