Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

Re: # 106

Kyu be,

hamara desh koi musafir khana hai, jahan par har kisam ka koi bhi altu faltu resettle ho sakta hai.

Re: # 59

Stuka,

Gadhe, people like you will then call Abul Kalam Azad a patriot (FYI this ba*&^%tard was resposnible for the massacre of 10,000 Hindus in the Malabar when he gave call for jehad against the Kaffirs [British] but since the mapillas could not find any British Kaffirs they killed Hindu One`s). The Deobandi`s were never pro Bharat Mata but pro Islam. they opposed Jinnah and partition as they feared the sway of Islam in India would be reduced to geographical corners.

Please study history before commenting, arre I forget 10 klass mein Social Science mein compartment aaye hogi?

Regards
Sanatani

#111 writes <<< In summary, Ahmadis do not ignore the “khatam-un-nabiyeen” verse of Quran. They interpret it differently than you do. >>>

It does not have to do with ``interpretation`` but a distortion of how the word is used in the Quran. You have not shown me how that word is used in any different sense in any verse of the Quran (I did not ask you for outside sources). Being in the ``company of`` prophets does not make one a prophet, your other references are quite irrelevant.

re:#50 by Salim_Chauhan
Very true.
Sridhar

Masadi (#110),

Since this is indeed an irrelevant topic, I too will keep my response concise. However allow me to be presumptuous (to use your terminology) and tell you that you do not fully understand meanings and connotations of “khatam”.

- Use of a word in one particular way does not rule out its other, wider meanings and connotations. This was an incorrect assumption on your part. Seal, while used to enclose something, is also a mark, an emblem of authenticity and authority.

- I have seen Arabic references where kahtam-ul-muhaqaqeen, khatam-ul-auliya are used to show a person’s high and exalted status as a muhaqiq, wali, etc.

- Surah-e-fatiha says … “Guide us along the path of those on who You bestowed Thy favors …”. These favors include company of prophets, literally and metaphorically … as suggested by 4:69 (Those who obey God and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of God - of the Prophets, the Sincere, the Witnesses, and the Righteous: Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!).

Furthermore, compare 4:69 to 57:19 where Quran refers to Allah’s messengers in general … and not specifically to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) … and states that those who believe in them may become Sincere and Witnesses … however no reference is made to Prophethood (”And those who believe in God and His apostles - they are the Sincere, and the witnesses, in the eyes of their Lord``).

My view is that prophethood is now achievable only through following the message of Quran and by walking in footsteps of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Following message of other prophets can still take one to spiritual heights, but not to prophethood. This is consistent with my understanding of khatam-un-nabiyeen.

- In reciting darood sheriff Muslims invoke Allah’s blessings on ummah of Mohammad, just as the ummah of Ibrahim was blessed. One of the best known and most recognizable blessings bestowed on ummah of Ibrahim was abundance of prophets.

- Furthermore, I have also seen in Arabic language a saying of Bibi Ayesha, where she said (translation) “Do call him khatam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say that there will be no prophet after him”. This recorded saying, whether authentic or not, shows varying uses of “khatam” in different contexts.

The context of ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` verse in Quran is a whole another ball game ... but I`ll digress for now.

+++

In summary, Ahmadis do not ignore the “khatam-un-nabiyeen” verse of Quran. They interpret it differently than you do.

Several posts by sattar2:

I don`t think it is relevant to this thread that discusses a social issue to bring in your religious differences into the discussion. I will therefore keep my response short.

The Quran is very clear that the prophet Muhammad was the last nabi (prophet) in 33:40. Please do not be presumptious and tell me that I do not understand the word ``khatm`` and that it has 1001 meanings. I have studied the word in the Quran itself and it is used in the meaning of a SEAL. Once a thing is sealed there is no addition or deleting. Similar to Allah ``sealing`` the hearts of some (same root word is used there)




For example, consider the first word in this (2:7) aya:



On the other hand that verse does not talk about ``rasool`` or messenger- which denotes not an anointed personality but function of conveying the word of God verbatim. Anyone conveying the Quran is fulfilling that function and so the word rasool is used without any seal in the Quran referring to the future, e.g. whenever there comes.... etc.

That said, it is not the position of anyone to declare any other a non-muslim, that is the domain of Allah who will judge how people submitted to him given his communication, the Quran. Ahmadis do not submit to that one verse above that I quote, according to what I understand from these discussions, but the Sunnis and Shias do not submit to tons of other verses in the Quran when they prefer their traditions to those verses. So who is a better submitter? That is the domain of Allah alone. Those who reduce Islam to narrow formulas and then pass judgment on others based on those forumlas are ignoring the essence of the message of the Quran.

IB (#105):

Merely insisting that prophethood has ended is senseless. You may also insist that earth is flat. Furthermore, ending your vehement insistence with “full stop” is pointless (pun intended).

Kindly read posts #87 and #103 on continuation of propohethood.

Following link shows views of some well known scholars of Islam on this issue. Note that I am not trying to convert you … but only underscoring validity of Ahmadi-Muslim views.

Click [Views on continuation of propohethood]

Yes, Jews rejected Jesus Christ and are still waiting for the first Messiah to descend. Muslims rejected Mirza Shaib and will continue to wait for the Messiah to descend. If anything, you should compare mainstream Muslim, and not Ahmadis, to Jews.

Re: # 105
``Ahmedis aka Qadyanis in strictly religious terms are `not muslims[...] they have no rights to call themselves `Muslims` constitutionally & morally ( full stop )``

This whole line of argument is so ridiculous! I guess you`re in good company though:

from http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_pakis.htm
``In 1993 the Supreme Court of Pakistan heard a case by a number of Ahmadis who asserted that they were being deprived of their religious rights and freedoms, as guaranteed under Article 20 of the constitution. The appeal was rejected. The court felt that granting the Ahmadis equal rights would be against public order. They said that Shi`a or Suni Muslims, who vastly outnumber the Ahmadis, consider the ``movement ideologically offensive.`` 6 The majority opinion of the court stated that many Islamic phrases were, in effect, copyrighted trademarks of the Islamic faith. Thus the use of these phrases by Ahmadis was a form of copyright infringement; it violated the Trademark Act of 1940. They also found that Ahamdis were committing blasphemy when they spoke or wrote specific Islamic phrases.``

What I`d like to know is, who owns the trademark?

Urstruly, I must ask you a set of questions. Please do not get offended by the nature of my questions.


Who do you and like-minded indiviuals with your self-proclaimed sense of Islamic identity think you are to have the right to judge who is or who is not a Muslim? Have you been sanctioned by a non-human authority to do so? I would be MOST interested be enlightened on this. As in, what right do you have to say to others what they can or can not believe in?

Are people such as yourself really even Muslim? I think you people should look into your own collars before acussing others of being non-Muslim. As a Muslim, I believe that I will one day have to pay for my sins in the grave. Do you and your like-minded bigots not beilieve in the grave? If you honestly believed in the concept of the grave, you would live and let live. Because then you would truly believe in the purity of your religion and adhere to the supreme principle that we all shall one day be accountable for our actions and beliefs. Do you not believe in that inherent concept which is integrated into the religion of Islam? If you do believe in it, then I demand to ask you the question, why are you so bothered about what others believe?

I dont believe what the Qidianis believe in and I do not approve of their teachings. I have the right to disagree with them but I do NOT have the right to persecute them. Her kisi ne apni kabar dekh ni hai. Live and let live man.

There are more relevant things to focus all our energies upon than theological debates my friend. Salman sits and begs for food on the streets of Main Boulevard, a girl is killed in the name of honor in interior Punjab, another is converted into another religion agaisnt her will, Bilal sleeps without food in his stomach, Amina has to live with the prospect of having no future for her, Zareen lives in a state of abject poverty with no clean drinking water... Shame on you! People such as yourself should be blamed for the condition of the People of Pakistan.

I think India should request all Ahmedis to settle in Panjab..maybe ex-ahmedi-ismilis too.

Ahmedis aka Qadyanis in strictly religious terms are `not muslims` - they are like Jews who are waiting for a waiting - well in there case Ahmedis beleive that the prophecy will continue- its as simple as it gets they have no rights to call themselves `Muslims` constitutionally & morally ( full stop ) - and I am not a religious person at all -
Atleast half of the concept of Islam is that Mohammad ( s.a.w ) was the last messange of Allah & if anyone violates that code & brands himself / herself as a Muslim , one is not in his right senses - ( with due respect to the freedom of speech )
Pakistan with all the `bs` the liberals & wanabes believe is a idealogial state in which Islam & Islam alone will the state religion & if anyone goes against the idealogy of the state he or she is commiting a treason.
Having said all this I also believe Ahmedis aka Qadyanis deserve a better treatment & treated according to merit but Qadyanis *Mirza Sahab* have to realize ground realities and stop considering themselves as Muslims - the only reason why most hate them for what they believe in .

Atif (#99):

Ahmadi-Muslim teachings do not malign Islam in any way. If you have an issue with Kulharee, keep it between the two of you … without passing laws against the entire Ahmadi community, without holding the entire community responsible for his personal views.

Kulharee is also a male member of society. He may also be a Pakistani. He may also be an accountant. If he offends you, should you pass laws against all men, against all Pakistanis, or against all accountants???

Your reasoning makes no sense.

Stuka (#77, 94):

Here’s some more food for thought … regarding ahadith.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) foretold appearance of a prophet among Muslims in latter days. He referred to this prophet as Issa-ibne-Marriam.

Ullema interpret this to mean that same Jesus … from two thousand years ago … will reappear in flesh and blood!! Ahmadi-Muslims interpret it as appearance of a prophet among Muslims, whose prophethood will bear resemblance to that of Issa-ibne-Mrriam, in spirit and an in circumstances.

Jesus Christ

Issa did not bring a new law. Rather, he came to remind and warn people on basis of existing law of Torah, which was brought earlier by Moses (pbuh). He appeared 1400 years after Moses, at a time when Jews had become severely corrupt and subjugated. Jews were then ruled by an outside nation, the Romans.

Jesus emphasized teachings of humility from Torah ... summed up by expression ``turn the other cheek`` ... and that there was no need for ``an eye for an eye``. He laid emphasis on piety and patience instead.

Mirza Sahib

Similarly, Mirza Sahib did not bring a new law. Rather, his mission was to bring people back to teachings of Quran. He appeared 1400 years after prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and at a time when Muslims had become corrupt and subjugated. During his time Muslims were ruled by an outside nation, the British.

Mirza Sahib emphasized teachings of forebearance and humility from Quran ... and explained that there was no need for fighting jihad. He too laid emphasis on piety and patience in face of violence and propaganda.

+++

This is one of many instances where mainstream Muslims and Ahmadi-Muslims interpret things differently. Furthermore, in my view there is nothing in Quran that even remotely suggests complete end of prophethood.

And here`s one more: In Quran Allah uses the term Muslim when referring to believers. There`s nothing in Quran that gives anyone any authority to declare anyone a non-Muslim. It is one thing to have differ in views ... however ``declaration of non-Muslim`` goes against spirit and content of Quran.

actually, a few days back i had a vision of Allah Baba who told me that people who were using alpha-numeric characters like - atif2 - were indulging in a monstrosity of Koranic Proportions by invoking the Mother of all blasphemies...
so, i request chowkstaff to ban people who are using this particular combination and in the process exhibiting their intolerance and bigotry against my newly upgraded Islam (version 666.0 Gamma).

Re: # 99
[. But when a group uses its own belief to malign you and your belief, it is a natural human psyche to hit back.]

Speak for your own psyche, buddy! I never thought I`d say it, but here`s someone who might actually *need* Zoloft...

[Lets be fair, the ``persecution`` that Kulharee refers to in his article is not borne out of a vacuum. It is precisely because of qadiaynis like Kulharee, who use profane language and malign other people`s prophets and beliefs, that Pakistani Muslims are forced to adopt the practices (such as declaring belief in passports etc) that in normal circumstances would be considered immoral or unnecessary.]

Re: stuka,

Ahmadis don`t deny a central tenet of Islam. They just interpret it differently.