Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

masadi #95 ``Making discrimination part of the institutions of Pakistan by requiring people to declare their beliefs just gives undue prominence to the group being so singled out``

I fully and whole heartedly agree. NO ONE - qadiyanis, christians, hindus, muslims - should be asked to declare their belief before handing them job, food, or clothing. But when a group uses its own belief to malign you and your belief, it is a natural human psyche to hit back. For example, I do not give a damn about what homosexuals do in their bedroom. But when they start walking down my street advertising their bedroom practices, attacking the heterosexual institution of marriage, and including the book ``Josh has two dads`` in our children`s school curriculum, then I develop an issue with them.

When qadiyanis like Kulharee call the vilest possible names to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) without any provocation on chowk unplugged, they are showing their intolerance and bigotry and hateful agenda. I may not retaliate, but some teenager muslim might get pissed and grow up to enact laws culling this qadiyani hate. Lets be fair, the ``persecution`` that Kulharee refers to in his article is not borne out of a vacuum. It is precisely because of qadiaynis like Kulharee, who use profane language and malign other people`s prophets and beliefs, that Pakistani Muslims are forced to adopt the practices (such as declaring belief in passports etc) that in normal circumstances would be considered immoral or unnecessary.

so what else is new in Puristan.....

Re: # 95: Hey not fair...you didn;t say anything bad about America. You ok?

stuka:

guru gobind wasn`t the last guru.

the current guru is the granth sahib.

isn`t it jang??

To add to #90, it is not only the Ahmadis that face the wrath of the Mullah it is everyone who disagrees with his brand and lately as news events show, sectarian violence has affected other groups moreso than the Ahmadis. Making discrimination part of the institutions of Pakistan by requiring people to declare their beliefs just gives undue prominence to the group being so singled out since those institutions are so broken down enforcement is next to impossible unless the person wears an advertisement on his shirt declaring who he is or is not. There are other problems with the institutional setup in Pakistan that are causing greater harm and misery than this clause that is being debated on here. Are you all following the mullah`s ``methodology`` of making a mountain out of a mole hill even as the country is going to hell independent of any religious causes?

Sattar:

Thanks for the post. I am in no way an expert on Islamic law or traditions. I was simply drawing a line between the Nirankari and the Ahmadi phenomenon.


WRT to civil rights, my personal belief is that religion should not play a part at all. But, in a state that has ended up defining itself by religion (regardless of the founder`s motives) I think its a tough call to have a secular polity.

Kulharee, Kehdoon tumhe? Ya na kahoon?

Mirza Sahib ney farmaya...tu chal mein toilet hokay aaya... (laugh dammit!!!!)

Re: # 90

Asadi Sahib, I can only do so much. I am only human.

stuka:

guru gobind wasn`t the last guru.

the current guru is the granth sahib.

isn`t it jang??

HP <<< The problem with Ahmedis is more political in nature than religious. The mullah uses them for political gains... >>>

True the mullah needs non issues to manipulate group solidarity in his favor and distract the starving masses from what is actually causing their misery. Though on a much smaller scale, the mullah uses Ahmadis as scapegoat just like the West uses Muslims as ``the other``. Kulharee in his ignorance supports the higher tyranny while condemning the lesser.

sattar2:

You seem to be quite knowledgeable about semitic/abrahamic religions. I would like to ask you a few things:

muslims consider moses, jesus as prophets too whereas i have never heard jews/christians accepting mohd. as gods prophet.

i was thinking if it is the same god that sent all these prophets, wouldn`t jesus/moses would too call god as allah (as mohd. did)

or is it that the word ``allah`` just a common noun and a word for ``god`` in arabic???

#83 what you say may be true for post-partition politics. but to say that ahmedis were strong proponants of pakistan movement is like saying they were strong proponents of quantum physics in italy.

Stuka (#65):

”If Islam says that Mohammad is the Last Prophet …

This is a misleading statement. One may also argue that ... Islam says ... Moses parted the ocean by waving his hand. Note that there is Quran, there are recorded ahadith, and then there are ullema’s views.

View of Quran

Nowhere does Quran call Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the last prophet. I have looked into meaning and context of “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen” (Seal of Prophets) in some details in this regard. Furthermore, Quran suggests that while divine law is consummated in Quran and prophethod reached highest level in propoethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), door to prophethood remains open.

Ahadith

Ahadith are often misquoted to support belief in end of prophethood. An obvious example is where the Prophet (pbuh) reportedly said …

”I am the last prophet and this mosque of mine is the last mosque”

One wonders what does ``last mosque`` here mean?. Clearly this hadith is being misunderstood in context of end of proopehthood. My view is that … last here suggests something along the lines of highest in significance, and that others very well may follow. I hope you get the point.

This hadith has been quoted to me by mullahs on several occasions. But when asked what does ``last mosque`` mean, they get baffled completely. Apparently they do not even bother to read the hadith before reaching a conclusion.

[Which remainds me ... Urstrly, I am still waiting to hear from you on this one. You owe me an explanation ... since you, and not me, earlier raised this hadith. It`s been a while ... you know ...]


Ullema`s views

While ullema of this day and age are in agreement on end of prophethood, several extremely well known scholars throughout history of of Islam have supported continuation of prophethood. Their views are no longer acknowledged by the ullema of this day and age.

I`ll pause here for now ...

#76 by sattar2
“The problem lies in turning this into a legal issue, whereby Ahmadis become criminals for peacefully following Islam.”

This is an astute comment. Declaring ahmedi Muslim or non Muslim thru the constitution or any other means did not amount to much until they unleash laws that made peaceful citizens criminals for following their beliefs.

I don’t agree with atif’s comments about the Ahmedi support of the British. If that is a crime then every single Pakistani can be accused of this crime. Every single Punjabi leader in Punjab before the partition worked with the British in one capacity or the other.

From the religious pov, there is tradition in muslims of people declaring themselves masih/Messiah or the second coming of the Christ. Some were considered crazy and other were killed but ahmedis as a group are the first that are being persecuted for the same declaration.

In Balochistan, there are Muslims who even perform their Haj in Balochistan and not in Mecca. They follow a mix of Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Islam. Most of the coastal population in Balochistan follows that brand of Islam. Nobody has ever bothered to call them non Muslim or anything like that.

The problem with Ahmedis is more political in nature than religious. The mullah uses them for political gains.

OTOH, I might mention that Ahmedis have not withdrawn from the social/political life in Pakistan. Despite stories of their persecution, many Ahmedis are still in pretty good shape. While the mullah and to some extent lower middleclass Punjabis persecute them, on the higher levels ahmedis have many friends.

In fact, some ministers and advisors in Punjab and on Federal level are ahmedi. One of them is a dear friend and a US citizen:)


#55 by jang

I can respond to that with so much sanity that every Hindu ass will burn for days but I will save it for another thread.

#81, Kulaharee {``They will lay down their lives to protect us Ahmadis from these Mullahs``}

Kul,
While I detest you personally, I will defend with my life your right to call yourself a Muslim, an Elk, a Moose, or a member of any club that refuses to let you in. I for one would never join a club that is willing to have me as a member.

Re: # 66
[ I was under the impression that even after the 2001 supreme court ruling non-Muslims can only cast their vote for very few open seats, and that too, only at the local level.]

... all of this providing the election commission doesn`t take this back the same way they took back the 2002 joint electorates at the national level. Or has it already? I`m not sure. Can minorities still vote for open union council seats?