Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

Re: # 21 we r not talking about indiviuals here, we r talking about the ahmadiyas, it was created with mischief in mind, this was a creation of the british to divide the moslimsof the undivided india.
the british were real scared of the spread of islam in the sub continent,andthus this,

heahmeadiyas were created bythe british to divide the moslims of thesub continent ,like they tried to break up the shia moslims by introducing bahhaism , both fell flat on thier faces and then they invented thewhabbisism
since the earlier 2 were with the idea of the awaited savioure, this time (wahabbism) was direct contactwith Allah (swt)--- it all stinks

Re: # 287 salam, u bet then the BUSH age should be called so

Re: # 319

Dear Ansa,

I was reviewing my posts on Chowk when I saw your post at #319 on the subject topic.

I don`t think we can have any objection to any organizaion expelling any of its members or even excommunicating him. What is preposterous in case of Ahmadies is that they have been declared non-muslim by a state by subverting its constitution to make it a `Fatwa` against a section of its citizens. What if all the majorities in all the states start doing the same, pontifying on the religious beliefs of the people by declaring them whatever they like - India declaring Muslims as Mallechhas, Ahmadies (If they get majority in any state) declaring their excommuncator Muslims as non-muslim or even `kafirs waajibul-qatl`, and so on, till the world becomes a veritable hell where `Khuda ki khudai khatam, Nabi ki nabuwat khatam, Insan ki insaniat khatam, bas Mullah ki mullah-gardi zinda bad`.

With regards

Re: # 64
Kulharee:

This comes four months late, but I just read your comment. I hope you read this. I don`t know how else to get in touch with you. Do let me know if you come across this entry, my contact is on my profile page.

A little clarification is needed here. You wrote:

[Jammat has a right to ‘ex-communicate’ anyone who doesn’t fit their definition of an Ahmadi. That has always bothered me. Here, we Ahamdis complain about not being considered Muslims by other Muslims, but at the same time we reserve the right to expel (they call it ‘Murtad’) anyone they think has not met their expectations. I think the right to consider who what person is, or what religion that person belongs to, should rest solely with that person.]

Only the Caliph of the jamaat has the right to expel someone. A distinction needs to be made here: casting off somebody from the jamaat does not mean they are being expelled from Ahmadiyyat. The jamaat firmly believes that everyone has the right to be whoever they want to be. But for sake of running an organization and unifying everyone under it (my explanation lacks articulation), such drastic measures are sometimes taken.
I repeat, expelling anyone from the Jamaat does not mean he is not an Ahmadi anymore. No one has the right to claim that about anyone. It just means that he has no link with the the organization. Whether he wants to be an Ahmadi or not is entirely his prerogative.

I believe the term used for the purpose is NOT `murtad` (which is denouncing your beliefs, correct me if i`m wrong), but `khaarij`, as in `jamaat sey khaarij`

Ahmadiyyat is not a part of the jamaat. The jamaat is a part of Ahmadiyyat .

You FOOL!!!!
NO one BELIEVE in MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H) HE`s a messager.
What`s the point of writing when you don`t know what actually happening here.

Re: # 316
Discoverer, what is such a big deal if Mohammad is the last prophet or the first prophet? You can believe what you want, but how can you tell others what to believe? Are you saying that your belief must be accepted by others? Are you out of your mind? Do you really think that the rest of the world loses sleep over who the last prophet is?

satar

- If you think suicide bombings are jihad, you’ve got it all wrong. And that’s the travesty of ummah. Retaliation against injustice does not mean engaging in merciless killings. There are better ways to retaliate. Suicide bombings and unnecessary violence are not jihad.

I think you mis read my post i NEVER mention that suicide bombing is called jihad coz i don`t believe that it is the work of muslim ummah. Throughout history retaliation by muslim has been seen the greatest being the end of crusade. Suicide bombing as i repeat IS NOT HOW MUSLIMS fight AND i mean any muslims. Tell me when were ruthless killing was done by muslims, in pallestine, kashmir, bosni etc only muslims are killed or slaughtered therfore claiming that muslim believe in violence is a inappropriate statement. I had refered you post 103 but there is NO reference of any HADITH.

I gave you all the reference from different sources-- muslims & non muslim now its up to you to decide. I usually never take part in any discussion but in this case i wanted to know what makes Ahmaddis different but i am still under douth coz the point Ahmaddis raised is not at all valid. Any how, Allah has given us brain to think and move toward where we think is right as it is said it is better to light a candle then to curse the darkness. Goodluck

discoverer,

- I’ll repeat: Hadith about return of Issa-ibne-Marriam is a metaphor. It refers to appearance of a prophet among Muslims, just like Issa appeared among Jews. Refer to my post #103 for details.

- If you think suicide bombings are jihad, you’ve got it all wrong. And that’s the travesty of ummah. Retaliation against injustice does not mean engaging in merciless killings. There are better ways to retaliate. Suicide bombings and unnecessary violence are not jihad.

+++

Look, I am not sure what is that you are trying to prove. Just let Ahmadis peacefully practice what they believe. You can consider them non-Muslims, that’s your choice. But imprisoning Ahmadis for claiming to be Muslims defies reason and dignity. Live and let live man … and let Allah do the rest.

If you continue to ramble foolishly, I`ll ignore your comments. Beyond that, good luck.

sattar

let`s see, ``your mirza claimed that he was the Second coming of the Christ (it is a belief of Muslims that the Promised Messiah “the Awaited One” will return)`` this line i copied from the main article. And you still consider him dead. If there were hadith about Prophethood what were they and where are they. NOW i m sure you don`t read my post and that`s the reason you are repeating your statements to make it a solid proved. Your are outnumbered against the actually fact and hadith.

``- Let me clarify what may have been a bit confusing statement: Islam severely restricts conditions for fighting jihad. However, this concept has been abused by ullema and ummah.``

OOO i got it you mean all these freedom cause in palestine, bosnia, kashmir etc is not jihad. If thats not jihad what is jihad, jihad literally means to retaliate against injustice. Ofcourse your british didnot wanted muslim community to fight against them so they use mirza and he called jihad haram.

``- Miracles … prophets flying to skies to meet god, parting ocean, raising the dead … have been misunderstood. This is the corruption of Islam that I earlier mentioned. It turns religion into a fairy tale, devoid of reason and intellect.``

You again did not answer my question how could your mirza recieved revelation without diving powers, remember diving power is a MIRACLE. You can`t explain God mathmatically or by Physical law.

I AM TELLING YOU AGAIN READ MY POST ESPECIALLY 307

discoverer,

- There are several ahadith that support continuation of prophethood. However, ullema now ignore these ahadith. The hadith about return of Issa-ibne-Marriam is one, but is misunderstood. It suggests that a prophet will appear among Muslims, just like Issa appeared among Jews. Refer to post #103 for details.

- The link I posted suggests that several scholars supported continuation of prophethood. I don’t follow your point.

- You are right, I do not believe Prophet Issa (pbuh) is alive. He has died and will not return.

- Let me clarify what may have been a bit confusing statement: Islam severely restricts conditions for fighting jihad. However, this concept has been abused by ullema and ummah. Refer to post #57 for a brief segment on this.

- Miracles … prophets flying to skies to meet god, parting ocean, raising the dead … have been misunderstood. This is the corruption of Islam that I earlier mentioned. It turns religion into a fairy tale, devoid of reason and intellect.

sattar2

``I posted a link for your reference. Your comment suggests that … it is an Ahmadi web-site, therefore it is nonsense. What kind of reasoning is this? You sound more like a bigot than an intelligent person.

The link I posted adequately suggests that some extremely well-reputed scholars througout Islamic history have accepted continuation of prophethood. If you consider this nonsense, it is your problem, not mine.

You have simply failed to put forward an intelligent argument on this account

Your post clearly shows your failure of reading my last post, althought as YOU claim so that many scholar has admitted the continuaity of Prophethood, there is no one who believe that our Prophet Muhammad had sadi any thing about the prophet coming after HIM. If i am a bigot then can you would had already know that there are many non muslim schorlars who also help in clearing our douth about any particular issue like this one. I gurantee you there are no scholars who talked about the continuation of Prophethood. I am only bringing non muslim scholar in this issue because you don`t trust our scholars (Mullah for you) & we don`t believe in your ideology.

``Mainstream Muslims, led by their ullema, have twisted concept of jihad and turned it into a violent ideology. They believe that Prophet Issa (pbuh) is alive, and resides up in the heavens, and will return at a later time. They believe that prophets in the past performed miracles … where they parted ocean by waving a hand, revived the dead, visited the skies to meet with God, and so on.

Is this what your mirza said in his revelation. What could be more miraculous then God communicating with a human by sending revelation, BUT you don`t trust in miracles.
The concept of jihad is simple defending oneself from corruption OR fight for justice, BUT you dont trust in jihad, that mean the battle for badr faught by the prophet was WRONG, yeah now i remember your mirza said in his speech `` he said jihad is haram and we should fight the bristish.
You don`t believe Prophet issa is alive???? IN THAT CASE how come you mirza claim that he is the promish messaih, meaning he is a liar!!!. Even Christains, jews believe that Hazrat Issa is alive in some form and will come return.
Miracle are the trademark of Prophet, miracle are the mere image of Allah (S.T) power which is clearly seen in nature. Every religion who believe there is god, BELIEVES in miracles. Miracles just have different meaning these days but miracles happen just we don`t understand them.
Therefore your believe is not of a clever person.

`` And that belief in Quran does not conflict with science, rather its conrrect understanding is consistent with scientific views. Miracles performed by prophets have been misunderstood, and when properly understood, they do not violate any physical laws.``

Even our scholars says the same thing nothin new about it. It is a scientific prove that miracles or extreme condition can be applied if an external agencies work efficenetly. The creation Arora in Arctic and Antartica can be called a miracle but at the same time it is bond by physical challenges.
Prophet Muhammad went for Mirage and span a long pperiod in heaven and the time passed on earth was just 1 second that what WE mainstream believe not you right. but do you know Albert Einstine wrote his thesis General theory of relativity in which he explained that it is POSSIBLE!!!!

`` If you think that Mirza Sahib started a new religion, then by the same token you must agree that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also started another religion.``

Prophet Muhammad did started a new religion and that is Islam.

``You are incorrect on this account. If you are going to drag what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, note that he did predict coming of a prophet, which he referred to as Issa-ibne-Marriam, in the latter days of Islam. Refer to my post #103 on this board for details.

In one account you say that Hazrat Issa will never return as claim by your mirza then how come you are saying that a prediction of another prophet is VALID. As the name suggest issa ibne marriam mean Issa son of marriam meaning Hazrat issa will return but he will not preach a new religion, he`ll be a mere man, not a prophet but he will be among the good MAN, a muslim LEADER not prophet.

ghilzai (#306):

For a Muslim, teachings of Quran should come before democracy. I hope you can agree to this simple point. For example, would it be OK for Muslims to democratically abolish fasting during Ramzaan and make fasting a crime? From an Islamic viewpoint, this would not be OK.

Quran does not give anyone the right to declare others as non-Muslims. Such authority rests only with Allah Almighty. Your democracy declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims. It made it a crime for an Ahmadi to say “as’salamo alaikom”, to say azaan, to carry a copy of Quran.

This shows how low your democracy has sunk.

+++++

But this is not the end. Violent persecution of Ahmadis continues to this day, esp. in small towns and villages in Pakistan. Their homes, mosques, businesses are attacked by mobs who are riled against Ahmadis based on lies and propaganda.

This shows how low, collectively, the ummah has sunk.

+++++

If you fail to acknowledge this problem, it reflects poorly on you as a human and as a Muslim.

discoverer (#307):

I posted a link for your reference. Your comment suggests that … it is an Ahmadi web-site, therefore it is nonsense. What kind of reasoning is this? You sound more like a bigot than an intelligent person.

The link I posted adequately suggests that some extremely well-reputed scholars througout Islamic history have accepted continuation of prophethood. If you consider this nonsense, it is your problem, not mine.

You have simply failed to put forward an intelligent argument on this account.

+++

Here’s why mainstream Islamic beliefs are in need for reformation …

Mainstream Beliefs

Mainstream Muslims, led by their ullema, have twisted concept of jihad and turned it into a violent ideology. They believe that Prophet Issa (pbuh) is alive, and resides up in the heavens, and will return at a later time. They believe that prophets in the past performed miracles … where they parted ocean by waving a hand, revived the dead, visited the skies to meet with God, and so on. Such twisting of faith takes a believer away from true message of God and turns religion into a fairy tale. This corruption creates a culture of pirs and taveez where a person feels he can no longer reach Allah by himself. There’s lot more … but I hope you get the point.

Ahmadi-Muslim Beliefs

We believe that Mirza Sahib is a prophet raised by Allah Almighty to bring people back to true message of Quran. Quran tells us that Allah raised prophets to remind and to warn people as people went astray. There’s nothing unusual about Allah raising another prophet as people in general, and Muslims in particular, have gone astray from the teachings of Quran.

Mirza Sahib explained, through reasoning and through references from Quran, the true concept of jihad which shuns violence and emphasizes prayer, patience, and asking Allah for help. Ahmadi-Muslims also believe that Prophet Issa (pbuh) has passed away like any other human being and will not return. And that belief in Quran does not conflict with science, rather its conrrect understanding is consistent with scientific views. Miracles performed by prophets have been misunderstood, and when properly understood, they do not violate any physical laws.

Universality of Religion

You say that every religion expresses the same truth. I agree. If you think that Mirza Sahib started a new religion, then by the same token you must agree that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also started another religion. The problem did not lie with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but with those who failed to understand the universality of his message. Same applies to Mirza Sahib, in my view.

Sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

You are incorrect on this account. If you are going to drag what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, note that he did predict coming of a prophet, which he referred to as Issa-ibne-Marriam, in the latter days of Islam. Refer to my post #103 on this board for details.

Re: # 216

Thank you dear Ashee. How nicely and succinctly you put it. The fact is a man who calls one a kafir himself becomes a kafir, vis a vis, that person at least, unless he claims himself to be God, knowing what is in other peoples` heart, commiting thereby an obvious sin of `Shirk. How paradoxical; when a person says he is an Ahmadi they believe him but when he claims to be a Muslim they say he is a lier and the founder of their sect an imposter. What a theatre of absurdity is this Pakyland!

Re: # 306

>>>We believe in domocracy and a true democracy is that it`s practiced well in all we do in our lives.

Ahmadis today propagate that they are a subject to nstitutionalized discrimination in Pakistan and elsewhere. My question would be that if people of a country say that they are not muslims and they should be treated like that .... then this is it. The wealth and network of ahmadis is not hidden from any one. If they can get discriminative laws thrown out by and act of Parliment, sure why not ..... but till then they have to wait and live with wishes of 150 Million Pakistani Muslims. <<<<


Ghilzai, you are talking thru your ass. What democracy are you talking about? When has there been a democracy in Pakistan? Are you telling us that if Pakistanis democratically decided that Quran a piece of junk not worth the paper it is written on, that will be acceptable to you? Hello? Since when are people’s religions decided by democracy? Well, Mukhtaran mai’s fate was decided democratically by your fellow Muslims, so it is understandable why you would feel what you feel.

You sound like a sour jealous prick talking about Ahmadi’s wealth. Yeah, burn baby burn.

sattar

First of all, the link you posted below is from a AHMADIS COMMUNITY SITE, therefore it is total nonsense to give reference to these type of sites.

The Qur`an regards itself as coming in fulfillment of earlier prophecy:

Say, whether or not you believe in it, the fact is that those who possessed knowledge before it fall on their faces in humble prostration when it is recited to them. And they say, Glory to our Lord and Sustainer: Surely the promise of Our Lord and Sustainer was to be fulfilled! (17:107-108; see also, 7:157, 61:6).

But it does not prophesy for the coming after it of another revelation. Its prophecy is only of its own inevitable final victory:

He it is who has sent his messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all religion, however much those who practice shirk may be averse (61:9).

This prevailing of Islam is not understood to be through any human force, but simply the result of the inevitable victory of a truer expression of the same religion over other expressions. Notice that the Qur`an does not say ``prevail over all religions`` but over all religion (in the singular). Every religion is really trying to express the same truth. Islam is the clearest and most effective expression of that truth and therefore is destined to replace all other expressions. It is like when a better and more economical model of a product such as the computer or the car comes on the market it necessarily replaces after due time the older less efficient and more expensive model.

Now a question for you, If your mirza was really a prophet ehn what sort of revelation did he recieved & how and what sorts of changes in Islamic society did these revelation made other then starting a new religion.

okay here is somthing which will some what HELP my points, Hazrat Isa or Jesus Christ prophcized the coming of Prophet Muhammad after HIM during his life & this is CLEARLY mentioned in christains` Testemony and bible. Hazrat Musa or moses prophecized the arrival of Isa during his life, BUT Prophet Muhammad did not prophecied any one coming after HIM, WHY??? -- because no one is suppose to come after word as describe in the QURAN and i have quoted the verses above.

Since i mentiond that the reference that you gave are from AHMADIS COMMUNITY i`ll give you now a reference from non muslim scholars. According to Christain scholars who just like us went deep in the biblotical words suggested tat Hazrat Isa mention while taking to his followers, tell them that another Paraclete will come and remind humans of True GOD,

|| The following are extracted from this site ||
|| http://www.mostmerciful.com/prophecy.htm ||

``When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me.`` John 15:26

Jesus Christ did indicate that the Paraclete will do certain things in his time. ``he``, Prophet Muhammad.

Now sattar and all the believer of prophecies & new messengers from Allah, could you point out any where in the Hadith that a new Prophet was bond to come over us. And don`t forget to tell me what Mirza`s revelation did for mankind.

NOTE- I would like you all to at least go through the site mentioned above.

We believe in domocracy and a true democracy is that it`s practiced well in all we do in our lives.

Ahmadis today propagate that they are a subject to nstitutionalized discrimination in Pakistan and elsewhere. My question would be that if people of a country say that they are not muslims and they should be treated like that .... then this is it. The wealth and network of ahmadis is not hidden from any one. If they can get discriminative laws thrown out by and act of Parliment, sure why not ..... but till then they have to wait and live with wishes of 150 Million Pakistani Muslims.

masadi MiaN,

Final comments ... as I head off for the weekend ...

+++

You are trying to create a whole now concept (end of proophethood) based on one word ... only one word of Quran. And this one word ... ``khatam/seal`` ... when viewed closely, does not support your view either. I know life can be tough at times ...

- You over-played the ``no distinction between prophets`` card. But this conflicted with reason as well other verses of Quran.

- Your next attempt was the ``drink sealed with musk`` reference from Quran. As I pointed out, musk does not ``seal/close`` a drink! However, the drink achieves fullness and perfection with musk. This reference supports my view ... for which I remain thankful to you.

- And you`ve ignored Arabic quote and references I cited. Quran is in Arabic ... you know ...

+++

My advice is to give up this silly pursuit of yours. Look, even Urstruly no longer argues on this issue. He merely insists that Ahmadis are non-Muslims, since ullema say so ... and prophethood had ended, since ullema say so. It is this ``why`` part that he has trouble explaining ... and you do too ...

You too have failed to make a simple point. It is now time to give it up and to take a hike. I am sure you can help the ummah in other ways ... debating this issue was just not one of them ...

masadi,


Ranks of Prophets

Quran tells us that Allah has exalted prophets to different ranks. This adequately negates your view. However, you insist that this verse is not relevant to believers!

I wonder ... if the verse is not relevent to believers, why is it included in Quran? What are you smoking dude …??


”No Distinction Between Prophets”

You have misunderstood this notion. It applies to truthfulness and spirit of message of each prophet.

To illustrate this, I plainly asked you … Is Prophet Jesus same as Prophet Muhammad? One was sent for Israelites, the other was sent for the entire mankind.

But you’ve failed to respond. Perhaps you know your view does not hold up.


Arabic References on “Khatam”

I posted several Arabic references that negate your view. If you remain in denial, that’s your problem, not mine.


Quranic Reference on “Khatam”

Quranic reference to “musk and drink” also negates your view of “khatam”. Here the drink achieves perfection and fullness with musk.


One Flimsy, Dubious Reference

That’s all you have. One word of Quran … to insist prophethood has ended. And upon scrutiny, this reference turns out to be incorrect.

Quran explains each issue over and over again … from different viewpoints, under varying circumstances, to illustrate the point. For you to try to build a whole new concept, from ground up, on one ... only one ... vague, incorrectly understood word ... is futile.

But you try anyway. However, mounting evidence, from Quran as well as other Arabic sources, adequately proves you to be in error.

Nice try, but no, thanks.


Moving on …

Arguments you raised fell apart upon scrutiny. So please spare me your sermon on how I should read Qruan. Perhaps you need to clear your own head before telling others what to do.

Furthermore, calling my views nonsense/deception is a sign of your own frustration and failure. This further underscores futility of your arguments.

#300 Sattar, you are going round and round in circles, reducing clear statements to illogical BS. When the Quran states make NO distinction, you negate the whole statement by saying that one (prophet Muhammed) was the greatest. You are to treat all of the prophets as if they were the same, that is what Allah is telling you. Your other extra Quranic references are cherry picked, and you know it. Further to me none of the extra-Quranic refs hold any weight, the Quran is the only authority.

Now, you are going to respond with the same nonsense for the 15th time, so spare me this distractive deception, and let me give you one piece of advice, give up all ideology and open up the Quran as if it were the first time you were reading it and be honest to its text. Everytime your mind throws in BS to distort the clear menaing of the Quran, regardless of where that BS comes from, reject it and try to understand the book using the logic of its author, Allah. If that is too hard for you to do, be sincere to Allah in understanding his message, then I suggest you explain your reasons for the distortions to Allah because you sure as hell have not convinced me.

discoverer (#299):

Quran tells us Allah raised prophets among people as people went astray. If Allah was going to change this practice, this would have been clearly indicated in Quran. Show me one verse which supports your view.

“Khatam” in Arabic

On khatam, you are incorrect. I have cited two Arabic references of “khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen” and “khatam-ul-auliya” that negate your view.

Furthermore, I cited a recorded Arabic saying of Bibi Ayesha, where she said … “Do call him (Prophet Muhammad, pbuh) khatam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say there will be no prophet after him”.

This saying and its recording by historians further negates your view.

“Khatam” in Urdu

Since you raised other languages (Urdu, Farsi, etc.), I should mention that I have seen Urdu references where “khatam-ul-mufasareen” and “khatam-ul-muhadaseen” are used to show a person’s high rank.

Views of scholars

So far I have cited five references: 2 in Arabic, followed by a recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha, and 2 in Urdu. Here`s more ...

Several well-reputed scholars throughout Islamic history have believed in continuation of prophethood. They have interpreted ``khatam-un-nabiyeen” as most exalted prophet. Here are some references …

Click [Views on continuation of propohethood]


In summary ...

Merely insisting that prophethood has ended does not make your case. All you have is one vague reference ... of ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` ... to support your view. And as I have shown here, this reference suggests highest rank in prophethood. So you really do not have much at all on which to base your case.

#296, Discoverer {`` I only started talking about Omar( R.A) coz the discussion spark out leading every one to believe that HIS rule was nothing else but curroption whereas the truth is every thing was put together at that time. ``}

Discoverer Sahib,
I will grant you that Omar is probably responsible for instituting the first executive press conferences - precursors of Press the Face and Meat the Nation. I will draw the line somewhere - Omar had nothing to do with the Internet. :)

masadi Sahib, some follow up thoughts:

In #289 I asked you if Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Shoaib are the same “prophet” (note that I did NOT say “person”; rather, I said “prophet”)?

In response (#295) you blew up.

Now, if you really believed in “no distinction between prophets” you would have simply said, yes, they are the same ”prophet”. Your response suggests that even you don’t accept what you preach.

Furthermore …

According to Quran Jesus was sent to Israelites, but Muhammad was sent for the entire mankind. Do you still insist that there is no distinction between prophets? Clearly you are misinterpreting the notion.

Furthermore, since Allah tells us about difference in ranks of prophets, this information is relevant to a believer. This further negates your view of “no distinction between prophets”.

kabuliwalla

``On another note a significant minority of black converts in the US are Ahmedis, on account of fervent prosetelyzing of Ahmedis, another facet of Ahmedis that bites Wahabis in the a$$``

Poor African American might have thought that they would pray the same way as the prophet. I am sure when they would have learn the truth about Ahamadis leader they would had converted again.

sattar2

You are another case that misunderstoods Arabic verses of Holy Quran. First of all, no where in Quran it has mention that they`ll be a Prophet after Prophet Muhammad, NO WHERE. khatam-un-nabiyeen as translated in to urdu or hindu or farsi etc only mean the end of Prophethood. Its not a men made concept, but believing that there`ll be a Prophet for YOU is a man made concept. Allah (S.T) has send down for us Quran for guidence but it seem there are many like you who doesn`t take QURANS ADVICE and start believing bullshit If you still douth it then i am sorry, no hope for you.

re: jang # 28

``Thank you Parshuram for a well-written piece. Growing up in india, we dont know about Ahmedis enough..i knew shia, sunni, memon-bohri and khoja-ismilies. Are there any in India and how are they doing?``

There are Ahmedis in India. Qadian is in East Punjab and Pakistani Ahmedis make a pilgrimage there. The caretakers there are most likely permanent residents in India. There is a bungalow with a sign of Ahmediyya Majlis or something like that in English and Urdu near Lal Bagh in Bangalore. However I never saw much activity there.

On another note a significant minority of black converts in the US are Ahmedis, on account of fervent prosetelyzing of Ahmedis, another facet of Ahmedis that bites Wahabis in the a$$

masadi Sahib,

Ranks of Prophets

Allah tells us that He has exalted prophets to different ranks. This is surely relevant to a believer, otherwise Quran would not mention it. This strikes out the base of your “no distinction between prophets” argument. And if you read 3:84, the verse specifically emphasizes the teachings of these prophets.

Khatam References

You are right that khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya do not refer to prophets. You should get a gold medal for this insight.

These Arabic expressions refer to an exalted muhaqiq and an exalted wali. Keeping this in mind, khatam-un-nabiyeen would mean … (hint, hint)

Reference to Bibi Ayesha further supports my viewpoint. She was not mouthpiece of God. Treat that reference … as a reference point.

Role of Prophets

Quran tells us that Allah sent prophets to remind and to warn people as they went astray. Are you suggesting that people no longer need to be reminded and warned? Wake up Sahib.

Musk and Drink

You are suggesting that musk seals, closes, finishes a drink. This makes hardly any sense. Surely musk does not seal/close a drink. And a drink is finished when one gulps it down!!!

Completing a drink with musk suggests that the drink reached fullness and perfection with musk. Your reference undermines your own argument, while strengthing mine. Thanks.

Incidentally, this reference is from Quran .... which should satisfy you.

One Flimsy Reference

Yes, that’s all you have. And it does not withstand scrutiny. End of prophethood is a made-up concept, which you are forcing upon Quran.

salim_chauhan

Discoverer bhai,
That is the wrong metric to gauge a ``golden age.`` Territorial expansion and conquest constitute neither glory, nor righteousness, nor closeness to Allah. If we go with square miles, then the Omayyads, Ottomans, Genghis Khan, the Russians, and even the British conquered far more than Omar.

I have just started my talk explaing how the golden age of ISLAMIC EMPIRE started, its not expansive that spark GOLDEN AGE, its the people who make it happens. All i am saying is that it was OMAR(R.A) who started it all. Achievments in scientic field was only possible when people explore their world and at the time when any new religion such as islam was considered a threat, many scientist were killed by outsider even before they start their work. The only way to make muslim scientist travel the world safely were by conquring those barberic lands, establing a proper law on that surface & making it civilized enough to live(remember earlier in muslim society safety for every muslim was a key element). I am not saying that this is the work of Hazrat Omar alone infact it was the work of each & every muslim living at that time but it was implimented TO THE HIGHEST PRIORITY at the time of Hazrat Omar. I only started talking about Omar( R.A) coz the discussion spark out leading every one to believe that HIS rule was nothing else but curroption whereas the truth is every thing was put together at that time.

Even the non muslim scholars agrees to all these point check this link
http://cherrystrudel.blogspot.com/2005/09/first-four-caliphs-of-islam.html

Sattar writes <<< - If the believers are not to make any distinction between the prophets, are you suggesting that Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Shoaib are all the same prophet? >>>

Are you an idiot? Is that what not making a distinction between one and the other of the prophets means that they are ONE PERSON? You need some serious help in comprehension. If I say I make no distinction between one and the other of my professors, does that mean all my professors are just ONE person?

Then he writes <<< I cited two Arabic expressions … khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya … that suggest excellence and exaltation. If you completely ignore these, you are in denial.

- Recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha supports this meaning of khatam-un-nabiyeen. This reference suggests that ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` does not necessarily mean ``last prophet ever``. >>>

Nonsense references, none are from the Quran, the top two are constructed and do not refer to the prophets, and the bottom one you have still failed to produce the arabic of it, and the prophet`s wife was no authority on Islam. Quran is the only authority on Islam. Also you are ignoring the 1001 hadith that the sunnis and the shias believe in that exist that talk about the prophet being the last.

Then he writes <<< Quran attests that Allah sent prophets for guidance of people. However, according to you, Allah completely changed this practice. And to support this view all you can find is one flimsy reference … one debatable word … in Quran? >>>

Not so, he sent prophets when he CHOSE to sent them based upon when he felt the need. When he CHOSE not to send them he did not. And now he tells us what he feels like doing considering his message is perfected and you do not need a prophet just a conveyor or messenger.

Then he writes <<< and only one flimsy reference >>>

No reference in the Quran is a flimsy reference. What you are doing is one step ahead of the Shias and Sunnis who distort Islam through their tradtions and by giving authority to the Imams, you are opeing up the prophethood with no criteria or authority from the Quran and thus trying to validate distortion of the Quran, even more so than the shias and the sunnis.

Then he writes

<<< Regarding the drink, the completion (seal) of which would be musk (Quran 83:26): In my view this does not make your case either; quite the opposite, if anything. Seal here suggests completion, where something achieves fullness and perfection...>>>

The truth came out didnt it? Seal suggest COMPLETION, and that verse is not talking about the message it is talking about prophethood and the prophet muhammed as COMPLETION.

You have miserably failed to make your case. I suggest you step back, return to the Quran and try to understand it using its own standards.

#2, Discoverer {`` Hazrat omar`s (R.A) caliphate rule is still considered as the golden age of islamic empire in history. Muslims started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of Omar muslim force conqured damascus, defeated byzantine, persian etc? ``}

Discoverer bhai,
That is the wrong metric to gauge a ``golden age.`` Territorial expansion and conquest constitute neither glory, nor righteousness, nor closeness to Allah. If we go with square miles, then the Omayyads, Ottomans, Genghis Khan, the Russians, and even the British conquered far more than Omar.

All the descriptions of what you consider really happened has been described by ``Sunni`` scholars who obviously had an axe to grind - but not like KulhaRee does. :)

kalharee

Dickcover, What Surah of the Quran is that from?

Don`t tell me that you dont know!!!? If you want to know from where i extracted this from then Its from RAMAYAN which as your indian president claim is equivalent to Quran<<>>> a soooo called muslim.

If you still didnot found this in ramayan then ask your mother she`ll tell you better.

masadi, if you step back from the issue and take an intelligent view, here’s a little more for you to consider.

Quran explains issues over and over again, from different viewpoints and in varying contexts. It sheds light on each issue from different angles so that spirit and content of message is conveyed in fullest measure.

Quran attests that Allah sent prophets for guidance of people. However, according to you, Allah completely changed this practice. And to support this view all you can find is one flimsy reference … one debatable word … in Quran?

It is flimsy and debatable … since its meaning remains vague, to say the least. Arabic references I provided underscore this fact by negating your view. Even your own Quranic reference to “musky drink” suggests the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

Such a big change … and only one flimsy reference, one debatable word? A plausible explanation is that … you are misinterpreting “Seal`` in ``Seal of Prophets” and introducing a whole new concept in Quran, one which does not belong there.

Re: # 290

>>>>First thing i read you ilog, don`t go to banaras, course you`ll be raped. They will put back in to your mothers` vagina.<<<

Dickcover, What Surah of the Quran is that from?

zeemax

I have a simple answer for you................ kill yourselve, and then ask Allah for Answer. He WILL surely reply. OO paray likhay Jahil, you don`t even know what you are saying, you are actually cross question Quran!!!! Even Prophet did not question Quran, then who are you to question Quran.

majumber

``George W Bush (R.G.)`s presidency should be considered the golden age of Christian Empire. Christians started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of GWB Christian force conqured Iraq, defeated Afghanistan, Waziristan etc?

maybe that`s why many people accepting Islam under Bush government in America and alll over, and maybe that`s the reason why Islam is now being called as the fastest growing religion.

kalharee

First thing i read you ilog, don`t go to banaras, course you`ll be raped. They will put back in to your mothers` vagina. Jab tu bahir niklay gaa tab ek nayaa majab nikal naa, and tell indi fçker to worship it coz it`ll be holy. madar chu what do you mean by your Prophet taree maaaa nay teray ko gând say nikalaa tha toe aur main maree ka kaltee. You even know who SUFIs were? yaa tera hindu dost nay taree maaaa kay saath raat gozaree jo tu itnaa ouchal rahaa hai. Really you should go to south india, i am sure your`ll find many like you.

masadi (#283):

If you think I am distorting Quran, you have air between your ears. Moving on …

- If the believers are not to make any distinction between the prophets, are you suggesting that Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Shoaib are all the same prophet? Or do you think these may be distinct prophets? You are missing the context …

- I cited two Arabic expressions … khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya … that suggest excellence and exaltation. If you completely ignore these, you are in denial.

- Recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha supports this meaning of khatam-un-nabiyeen. This reference suggests that ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` does not necessarily mean ``last prophet ever``.

- You claim that Allah sent prophets before Prophet Muhammad. Agreed. But how do you, masadi, today, know this? Think about it! It is only through prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that you know this. Without the authentication and seal of Prophet Muhammad’s message, there is no way you’d know this. This is one of the meaning of Seal of Prophets.

- Regarding the drink, the completion (seal) of which would be musk (Quran 83:26): In my view this does not make your case either; quite the opposite, if anything. Seal here suggests completion, where something achieves fullness and perfection. This is consistent with my interpretation of katam-un-nabiyeen … where office of propethood reached completion, fullness, perfection, and its highest level … in the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Re: # 285

>>>that many scholars and SUFIs` contantlyreminded us abput that is Wahabies mean in arabic a person who believe in absolute oneself of ALLAH)<<<

Dickcover, do you mean to tell us that your Prophet did not clarify enough for you that you need your scholars and Sufis to axplain for you? That’s really very sad. And Gandoo ki aulad, go and shove your head back up your Molvi`s asshole as I asked you to.

Discoverer,

(Hazrat omar`s (R.A) caliphate rule is still considered as the golden age of islamic empire in history. Muslims started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of Omar muslim force conqured damascus, defeated byzantine, persian etc? )

George W Bush (R.G.)`s presidency should be considered the golden age of Christian Empire. Christians started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of GWB Christian force conqured Iraq, defeated Afghanistan, Waziristan etc?

Regards

Note: R as in R of RA, G as in God

#285 by discoverer

If you`re so knowledgable of Islam, why don`t you answer the simple question I posed about `Hajra`? Instead of bashing everyone with ad hominem attacks. They`re all right. Kulharee as well as all others. All in their own way. Islam is not that simple as you guys make it out to be.

If you can`t, nor anyone else, I will.

Thanks

re Salim_Chauhan

To answer your question let me ask you some questions.
1. Why do Shia pray differentlly even thought Prophet MUhammad (SAW) taught HIS UMMAH to pray the way sunni muslims still prays today?

2. Hazrat omar`s (R.A) caliphate rule is still considered as the golden age of islamic empire in history. Muslims started expanding their religion all over the world at that time. Under the rule of Omar muslim force conqured damascus, defeated byzantine, persian etc?

3. Do you think Prophet Muhammad wanted HIS decendent to rule or ran Allah`s religion After HIS death? Remember Muhammad(SAW) had left no details as to who should succeed him. Remember even in HIS life Prophet gave power to the people, HE wanted HIS umaah to decide what`s right and what`s wrong. Its a simple voting system that was developed by senior member of the community, and ofcourse ABU BAKR being the seniour most was given the right of 1st Caliphate.

4. Why was Hazarat Ali`s (R,A) rule was the shortest despite being the son in law of the Prophet? Uthman was murdered at the hands of discontented Egyptians in 656 and the notables of Medina selected Ali b. Abi Talib as caliph. His failure to punish Uthman`s assassins quickly generated outrage. Civil war broke out under the leadership of Talha and Zubayr, two of Ali`s former supporters, and Aisha, former wife of Muhammad and daughter of Abu Bakr. The rebellion was suppressed near Basra at the famous Battle of the Camel, so-called because Aisha watched the battle from her palanquin atop a camel..

The basic different in SHIA & SUNNI are that The Sunni believe, based on specific provisions of the Qur`an and the Sunna, that the Muslim people are to be governed by consensus (ijma`) through an elected head of state, the khalifa, according to democratic principles. The Shia, however, believe that the leader of Islam, whom they refer to as the imam rather than the khalifa, must be a descendant of the Prophet. The concept is the basis for a hereditary hierarchy in the Shia tradition.

4. why do SHIA punish themselve in muharram when ALLAH (S.T) clearly mentioned in Quran HIS dislike to such acts followed by Prophet Muhammad?

Talking about the four school of thought which came many decades letter. Even during the time of Prophet Muhamaad, non muslims use to interfere with muslims prayers, by placing a statue under ther arm when muslim raise their hand saying ALLAHOAKBAR, ofcourse to removed it a person had to do some movement which as some believed is not at all tolerate in Islam but these four iman tought us the way we can pray our prayer perfected even after a person found him.herselve under such situations. therefore these school of taught does change our identity which is true muslims & also does not change our belief in the 4 rightful caliphs & our way of prayers.

re Kulharee

GO and cut your head with your kulharee. GâND KA LORAY!! like YOU shit bag, does not deserve to be here. I am sure this is the fist time you came to know the true meaning of many Arabic words, Religion are easy to follow but a religion which can be understood is the true religion. This is a misinterpretation that many scholars and SUFIs` contantlyreminded us abput that is Wahabies mean in arabic a person who believe in absolute oneself of ALLAH)S.T). SUFI`s didnot follows any schools of thought because they knew that it is only meant for people to pray their namaz perfectly.

re-harish_hy

As you say soo but tel me did your family ever gave human sacrifies coz your kalli requires it. Muslims have nothing to hide thats the reson why you are in this thread reading and learning the truth about our religion where as HINDUS have a look to hide, your caste system makes you barberic and narrow minded. your knowledge is limited & that`s the reson why many of you commit suicide or kill ACHOUT.no offen by just a question Are you a ACHOUT? don`t worry if you are then no one will take a bath or wash thee finger tips after chanting with you.

There is one figure in Islam who is quiet inexplicably the most underrated and ignored of all. That was one figure who has no sect or followers, and if there was one, I would be glad to join it without hesitation. That is Hajra (Hagar) the bond woman, Ismael`s mother, and the grand mother of all Arabs and indeed all Muslims. The silent woman whom even Genesis recognises as preferred by God over Abraham`s wife Sarah to bear him his first son, and who was brave enough to suffer quietly till finally kicked out at Sarah`s behest into the desert as a helpless single mom till noone but God heard her cries of help and acted. Still Hajra does not carry the distinction of even sainthood in Islam and referred to simply as `Bibi` Hajra.

Can anyone explain why Hajra; mother of Ismael i.e. the direct ancestor of Muhammad and equivalent of Isaac for Jews; does not merit even a mention anywhere in Quran while Mary, mother of Issa has an entire Surah devoted to her? (Even though Mary`s reference is a bit confusing because she is referred to as Miriam, mother of Issa and sister of Haroon (Aaron) while actually Miriam the sister of Aaron and Moses was not Issa`s mother ... but anyway).

Anyone? Masadi?

#281 Sattar, you are distorting the Quran again and trying to force a contradiction on it where none exists, just to fit it in with your ideology.

3:84 and many others are very clear {la nofariko bain a ahadim MINHUM} We make NO DISTINCTION (none whatsoever) between one and another OF THEM (i.e the prophets in the context).

You want to explain that away saying that in some instances distinction is fine and dandy. I don`t think so. You say that it contradicts 2:253. I`m sorry but you have no clue on what a contradiction is. There the speaker is ALLAH, here the recommendation and speaker are the believers. Allah has preferred some over others, that is his domain, the believers are told not to make any distinction between them. Now if 33:40 was telling the belivers that distinction is alright, THEN it would be a contradiction and your distorted meaning makes it so.

We have a book from ONE author, and he has used the same word in the same sense all through the book, but in this one instance just because it does not fit in with your belief system you distort the meaning and convert it into a totally nonsense sentence. And then you handpick a hadith there and a scholar here and ignore the 1001 opposing ones to prove your point. If that is not distortion, I don`t know what is.

Then you make a totally absurd statement

<<< For example, Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) verifies prophethood of several prophets. Without his authentication, one can only wonder who Jesus, Moses, Abraham were. But through the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) we know that they were prophets of Allah. >>>

This is totally absurd and rejection of the testimony of Allah, who had sent the prophets and verified them long before prophet Muhammed. So you mean to say that if people rejected them, it was fine and dandy until the prophet came? Just this statement, in my opinion puts you outside the pale of Islam, to one who has rejected the prophets or based their acceptance much after their mission was over dependant not on testimony from Allah but attestation by the prophet. It also amounts to idolatory in my opinion.

Now, if you cannot construct a logical argument based upon the Quran, and are going to repeat this BS over and over, I suggest you shut up and don`t waste my time.

Respectfully submitted,

Discoverer #276,

My friend, all you have done is used personalities to decide who is right and who is wrong.l The truth is that Shias were initially called Shia-ane-Ali (Partisans/friends of Hazrat Imam Ali). Also, if Sunnis are the original Muslims, then how come their four schools of thought were not developed until much later. Of course there were no ShiaS at the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). They arose after his death and as a reaction to the power grabbing initiated by the so-called companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), who started singing quite a different tune after the Holy Messenger`s (PBUH) death. Omar`s authoritarian rule, Usman`s corruption, and Muawiyah`s nepotism were all cause for Shias to get concerned about the imperialistic path on which the Meccan overlords were taking Islam.

For your information, the Imams following Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Hassan never held worldly power, or claimed the Caliphate - they were constantly a thorn in the sides of Omayyad and Abbasid Caliphs, reminding them of their corrupt and sinful ways.

masadi,

Some comments … (hopefully you can consider these without accusing me of distorting Quran)

”No distinction between prophets”

As I explained, this suggests that a believer should accept prophethood of all prophets and their messages. Message brought by each prophet aims to establish a close relationship between man and his Creator. I fail to see your point here.

Are you suggesting that “Moses” is the same prophet as “Jesus”? Or do you think they were two ``distinct`` prophets? Ahem ...

On ranks of Prophets

Allah tells us about differences in the ranks of prophets, since it is relevant to a believer. This contradicts your interpretation of ``no distinction between prophets``.

References on “khatam-un-nabiyeen”

Since Quran was revealed in Arabic, understanding a thing or two about Arabic language may be helpful.

I cited Arabic references of khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen and khatam-ul-auliya which suggest exalted rank and authenticity.

The said meaning is further supported by the recorded saying of Bibi Ayesha ”do call him (Prophet Muhammad, pbuh) khatam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say that there will be no prophet after him”. This saying underscores same meaning of ``khatam-un-nabiyeen`` as the two references cited above.

Earlier (#256) I explained 4 different aspects of “khatam-un-nabiyeen”. For example, Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) verifies prophethood of several prophets. Without his authentication, one can only wonder who Jesus, Moses, Abraham were. But through the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) we know that they were prophets of Allah.

This is consistent with meaning of ``Seal of Prophets`` that I have suggested.

On verse 4:69 of Qruan

It suggests that believers in Allah and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will be in company of prophets etc. This has a literal as well as a spiritual meaning. If taken literally, it suggests appearance of prophets among Muslims. I fail to see your point here as well.

masadi (#269):

You are quoting what I wrote out of context. I wrote …

”And if you think I am `distorting` Quran, you can go to hell.”

Then I added,

”If this harsh language bothers you, refrain from getting carried away next time …”.

This means that you are out of line in accusing others of “distorting” Quran when they disagree with you. Learn to share your views with civility, without accusing others of dishonesty. Is this too much to ask for??

More later …

Re: # 276
Discoverer, I think you haven’t discovered your brains yet…. It is resting inside your ass in case you are looking for it. Wahabis are followers of Abdul Wahab of the 18th century, and prophets die in all kindsa ways… I don’t know which is worse, being dragged on a Cross in Bethlehem or dying in one’s diarrhea or having your head presented on a platter to Yazid.. It it jokers like you who distinguish between various kinds of death.

#277 by discoverer

Most welcome, atleast there are no human sacrifices in our religion so feel free to explore our religion, Don`t worry about all this hardtalk.

Sure, Kafirs are not considered humans anyway which is why they can be blown to bits by the Momeens without any compunctions.

Yeh 1 think i forgot to mention what are non muslims doing in this thread, preparing to accept ISLAM....Most welcome, atleast there are no human sacrifices in our religion so feel free to explore our religion, Don`t worry about all this hardtalk. Islam is like a perfactly cut diamond, each side of this diamond is its firkas and every side of this diamond reflects it own colour & beauty.

re-salim chuhan

Sir/Lady,
May I remind you that Shias are not the ones who separated from the mainstream. In fact, Shias (partisans, friends) of Hazrat Imam Ali were those Muslims who were loyal to the Caliph. The Sunnis came much much later, as followers of the four Schools of Thought - Hanafis, Malekis, Shafeis, and Hanbalis. So, in the beginning there were Muslims who followed Imam Ali and they were called Shias. Then there were others who followed Muawiyah or just didn`t care, or were against both. The latter were called Kharijites. As for Ahmedis being a money-making religion, what do you think of Saudi Wahabbis? If wealth is a measurement of hypocrisy, then Wahabbis take the cake.

First of all let me remind you that shias were not at all loyal to the caliph, in fact they hated Hazrat Abu bakr & Hazrat Omar (R.A). because according to there history they tried to kill Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H)(naaouzubillah), Hazrat Imam Ali came long after the prophets dead so what makes shia the olderst and original.

What I will target is the origin of the Shia – of which there are enough variations to confuse even a keen student of religion. Some of the more common versions, forwarded mainly by Sunni scholars are:

The Shias came into existence decades or even centuries after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and thus don’t count as an official Islamic sect.

The Shias are Rafidhi - meaning those who rebelled or revolted, because they do not accept the first three caliphs after the Prophet (pbuh) as rightful leaders.

The Shias are an offshoot of the Jews that combine aspects of Judaism and Islam and thus do not profess not pure Islam.

Amongst accusations levelled at the Shia to alienate them from the Muslim community is that:

They glorify their Imams to the height of divinity, worshipping them and raising them in status above the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

They have their own version of the Qur’an with parts added or removed at their convenience.

That they accuse great companions of hypocrisy and insult them out of a personal hatred, because Ali bin Abi Talib (the First Imam) lost the seat of power after the Prophet (pbuh)
Sunnis` on the other hand come from the word sunna` meaning the doing of the Prophet what prophet did and the way he prayed and all are following by HIS followers and these are sunnis`.
Wahabies as you mentioned means in arabic:: A person who believe in the absolute being or pure thought of light & thats Allah . Many muslims still forget to find the true meaning of the arabic words and tends to consider it in to something else. However, this makes even our Prophet Muhammad as wahaby as he believe in only 1 god. If wahabies are only saudi and money making ppl then don`t forget that Imam- Kabba are also a Wahabis & many SUFI scholars were wahabbies such as BABA BULLAY SHA etc.

Talking about Ahmadies, There leader MIrza died of diarrhea. If he really was a promised massieh as claim by ahmaddies, http://www.qadiani.org/death.html thens he should have removed the sorrows of many muslims by defeating dajjal and destroying christaninty as mention in several hadith. Infact he didn`y do a shit about bringing muslims closer. Well i don`t see how you all don`t see the disfference b/w a fabrication and the truth.

Therefore i am repeating your statement, so in the beginning there were muslim only and they followed Prophet Muhammad and they did what prophet muhammad did in HIS life. Remember, Quran has repeatedly mentioned in the holy Quran that ``there will be no more Messanger after Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

#274 by Mantolives

[Proportional to what ? Indian Punjabis... but thats not what he said.]

Proportionate to their percentage of the overall population of Pakistan.

Proportional to what ? Indian Punjabis... but thats not what he said.


He said that most Pakistani Punjabis are in the Army...

Think about it.

If most Pakistani Punjabis are in the army ... then I suppose all the Punjabi businessmen, industrialists, farmers, feudals, lawyers, judges, human rights activisits, mullahs etc etc are not Punjabi?

#272 by Mantolives

[I wonder how ``most`` Punjabis are in the army ?]

Yaar Yasser, I think Sridhar was talking about proportionate numbers, not absolute numbers.

The genius Rsridhar says about ``Pakistani punjabis``:

``Most of them are in the Army and end up amassing wealth by unfair means.``


The population of Punjab ... 52% of Pakistan= 52/100* 150 million = 78 million.

The total strength of the Pakistan Army= 600 000
Total strength of all forces combined = 1 million

I wonder how ``most`` Punjabis are in the army ?

Sattar in his contradictory distortion writes in #256 <<< So yes, the Divine Law is now “sealed up” through prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), if this makes you happy. >>>

Unfortunately for you and your distorted interpretations, that aya is not talking about ``Divine Law`` but about prophethood and a person (Muhammed) being its seal, or completion/ending.




[33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you. He is a messenger of GOD and the seal (finality) of the prophets. GOD is fully aware of all things

Sattar writes <<< You have misunderstood Quranic view of ``not differentiating between God’s messengers``. You are missing the context and therefore misinterpreting the issue. >>>

Not at all, the verse means what it says when it quotes believers, according to what Allah wants them to say and accept. In your usual pattern of distorting the Quran you have explained away, based upon whim, whatever does not fit in with your narrow ideology

What part of this verse is very difficult for you to understand``
?



[3:84] Say, ``We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and in what was given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are Muslim.``

And how would that fit in with your distorted understanding that places the prophet as #1 in the verse that talks about the completing of prophethood?

And quoting 2:253 that discusses God`s judgment on grades assigned, which is his domain only, not the believers and what they are to accept, just does not cut it as explanation.

And why should I comment on your extra quranic references quoting the prophet`s wife? Was she the spokesperson of Allah? Was she the messenger of Allah? and I don`t accept any source other than the Quran to be valid as authority on Islam. That is just distortion that you are undertaking. However, why don`t you present the Arabic text of that so called reference, even though it has no authority and I can bet you are distorting that as well. Blindly following an idelogy does that to a person.

Then you distort 4:69 trying to suggest that it means that ``being with the prophets`` suggests that a person IS a prophet. Not so, that verse is suggesting mere reward, it does not suggest a physical presence IN THIS WORLD with a prophet. It is clearly explained by this verse and who those prophets were on which is ``Anam Allah`` referred to in Sura 1:




[19:58] These are the prophets whom GOD blessed (Anam Allaho aleyhim). From among the descendants of Adam, and the descendants of those whom we carried with Noah, and the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom we guided and selected. When the revelations of the Most Gracious are recited to them, they fall prostrate, weeping.

And to SEAL it all, let me give you an example of how the Quran used this word on another occassion, and I have checked all reference to the use of this word and they mean what the word says, a completion or ending:



Here the Quran talks about a drink whose SEAL or topping off or completing will be Musk, within which, i.e before which will be others (if you read the subsequent verse). But nothing after the seal!

#268 writes
<<< masadi miaN,

Learn to share your ideas with civility. And avoid accusing others of deliberately distorting Quran and of being not too far from hell, etc. Such belligerence is idiotic … >>>

What kind of a lying moron are you? You told me to ``go to hell`` if I didnt agree with you and in response to that I had said given by the manner in which you handle the Quran you are not too far from it. You detach my response from its context and then try to condemn me with it , removed a week from when it was said. What kind of a dishonest person are you? Your meaning that you are force fitting onto the Quranic verse that talks about a completing of prophethood makes absolutely NO SENSE in that context and is never used in that sense in the Quran. It is a deliberate distortion.

masadi miaN,

Learn to share your ideas with civility. And avoid accusing others of deliberately distorting Quran and of being not too far from hell, etc. Such belligerence is idiotic …

Your assumptions have turned out to be less than well-grounded. This applies to “Seal of Prophets” and to the “no distinction between prophets” issues.

So you may now stop boasting about knowing Quran very well. Such self-praise is a sign of immaturity and an inflated ego.

Note that I am not trying to convert you. As issues are raised, I am underscoring that views of Ahmadi-Muslims are not without merit. That’s all. Beyond that, feel free to believe and practice what makes sense to you.

Reading some of the Sunni comments here..

no wonder some non-sunnis
have started Direct Action Day today in Karachi.

Kulharee,
You are a Qadiani dude?
Pehle kyon nahee bataya....
I have been to Quadian many times. In fact my cousin`s wife is from a house that touches the boundary of your mosque. I always used to think that they are Muslims.

I have even seen the pictures of their peer, they are super nice to Khalsa(Practicing Sikhs). They showed me their building and gave me prashaad(moong wale ladoo).

so cool......

No oppression for Kulharee and other Qaudianis, they are from my part of Punjab. My cousin knows everyone there (right from hawaldaar to SHO).....

Sattar Sahib and Urstruly Sahib,
Let`s stop arguing about who was first and who was last. I was there. I was in the line way in the back and Mirza Sahib was with me. They ran out of tickets long before our turn came. I hope this helps.

maunala urstruly: what`s this i hear..your tax $$$(and mine) are being used by Uncle Sam to buy predator drones with hellfire missiles to pressurize mushy to get rid of the people in the paki armed forces with the real islamic beards..

wutz up wit dat? huh?

Re: # 261

``Ibne Mariyam hua kare koi
Mere dukh ki dawa kare koi``

Ghalib

Why we bother about these prophets and the cults they set up to divide humanity to hate, persecute and kill each other. Why not follow Budha, the great teacher and try to end the suffering of humanity as far as possible.

Urstruly,

When a reference proves you wrong, you tend to drop the issue altogether. So pardon me if I fail to take you seriously.

- Earlier you made egregious claims against Mirza Sahib. References I cited proved you wrong. As your references turned out to be grossly incorrect, you dropped the issue without having the decency to take back your uncouth comments.

- When I mentioned that Shah Walliullah supported continuation of prophethood, you suggested I was lying. When I provided you with a reference, you dropped the issue without admitting your error.

- To prove end of prophethood you cited a hadith where dear Prophet (pbuh) said … ”I am the last prophet and this mosque of mine is the last mosque.”

I asked you meaning of ”last” … as in ”last mosque” in this hadith. But you dropped the issue. I’ve asked you several times since then, but you’ve refused to respond.

There’s much more … but you get the point.

+++++

Your attitude reek of lies, deceit, and deception. So pardon me if I don’t take you seriously.

discoverer #248:

Should a prophet wave his hand and part the ocean to prove he is a prophet? Or should be wake up a smelly, dead corpse? Or should he fly above clouds across the Atlantic?

As you demand proof, let me ask first … what kind of proof would satisfy you? This question is supposed to make you think …

malik99 (#215):

Yep, let’s blame the military for shia-sunni riots. Otherwise ummah was doing just fine. Please let us know when you finally wake up.

Ahmadis are not inciting anyone. Ummah’s problem is that it is too insecure and incompetent to do anything right … and habitually blames others for their own screw ups. Jail-time for an Ahmadi for saying “assalam-o-alaikom”? And ummah rallied very hard to pass this law. What did this law accomplish? Hello, is anyone home?

You may not be fully aware of this persecution as the media cannot openly report it. Ahmadi-Muslim community has rejected propaganda and violence, even though their persecution has picked up considerable momentum in the past 50 years. You will be hard pressed to find such a peaceful community anywhere in the world.

And it bothers you if they call themselves Muslim. It seems you are the one with a problem …

Urstruly …

Several scholars throughout history of Islam have interpreted “Seal of Prophets” to suggest “most exalted prophet”. It is your own fault if you did not know this.

I provided you this link several times … so don’t get too cute …

Click [Views on continuation of propohethood]

Your scholars also tell you that Issa-ibne-Marriam resides above the clouds. And they base this on Quran … even after 1400 years!!

Your ullema are uncouth, jahil fanatics. That may be part of your problem ...

masadi (more on #135),

You have misunderstood Quranic view of ``not differentiating between God’s messengers``. You are missing the context and therefore misinterpreting the issue.

Certain distinctions between prophets need to be maintained. For example, using “Moses” to refer to “Jesus” would be absurd. Doing away with such differentiation between prophets would be incorrect.

Prophets differed in their missions and scopes of their respective prophethood. Quran attests to differences in ranks of prophets when it says:

”We have made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by rank … “ (2:253)

My view is that Quran assigns highest rank to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by calling him “Seal of Prophets”. Divine Law was perfected through his prophethood. Quran also calls him “Model for believers” and “Mercy for all the worlds”.

+++++

”Not differentiating between God’s messengers” suggests that a believer must accept all prophets as valid, righteous, messengers of God. Message brought by all messengers shared the spirit of establishing a close relationship between man and his Creator.

This teaching eliminates feelings of competition and jealousy between Muslims and others. It makes it easier for others to accept messengership of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) since his message attests to propohethood and righteousness of other prophets. This is fully consistent with meaning of “Seal of Prophets” as I explained earlier.

Along these lines, as an Ahmadi Muslim I accept messengership not only of Prophets Moses and Abraham etc., but also that of Prophets Buddha, Ram, Krishna, Zaratushtra, and more (peace be upon all of them). I hope you get the point.

Re: # 256

Could you point me to the Arabic text where terminology like khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen, and khatam-ul-Auliya might have been used.

And the next question is, why didn`t Arabs figure out the meaning of Khatam to be ``par excellence`` in 1400 years, until Mirza Sahib figured it out.

Masadi #135:

Your position that … every word Quran uses, Quran must use it in each and every possible meaning and connotation … is unreasonable. Since Quran is neither a dictionary nor a lexicon, your view is quite absurd.

Seal may be used to close something. Seal is also an emblem - a sign of authority, approval, authenticity, validation. A seal, while is seals a document, also verifies its authority and authenticity.

I cited two Arabic references to support such use of khatam (seal):

- khatam-ul-muhaqaqeen … suggesting a muhaqaq par excellence
- khatam-ul-Auliya … suggesting a wali par excellence

I cited another Arabic reference … where Bibi Ayesha reportedly said that … ”do call him (Prophet Muhammad, pbuh) khatam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say that there will be no prophet after him”.

Your failure to give any consideration to these references borders on stubbornness. You come across as a close-minded mullah.

++++++++++

1) To sum things up, my view is that “khatam-ul-nabiyeen” suggests a prophet most exalted, par excellence, in whose personality office of prophethood got consummated to its highest levels.

2) “Seal of Prophets” also suggests that Quran, the message brought by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), completes and consummates Divine Law. This Law has been perfected in Quran and no changes in Divine Law can occur. So yes, the Divine Law is now “sealed up” through prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), if this makes you happy.

3) Seal is also a stamp and an emblem that validates a document, an office, a person`s rank. “Seal of Propohets” also suggests that message brought by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) confirms proophethood of earlier prophets. Since it is no secret that Bible has been tampered with, without Quran it would be difficult to establish prophethood of earlier prophets like Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Noah (peace be upon them). Quran confirm righteousness, piety, and prophethood of such prophets beyond any doubt.

4) Similarly, “Seal of Prophets” suggests that prophethoood may now be achieved only by walking in footsteps of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), that is, by following the message he brought. The door to prophethood is now open only through prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). In essence, going forward, he is the ``Seal of Propohets``.

++++++++++

You may cover your eyes and ears ... and insist that seal can have only one meaning. Such ignorance will not get you anywhere.

I’ll shortly address other issues you raised.