Ahmadis – The Forgotten People

Sattar:

Thanks for the post. I am in no way an expert on Islamic law or traditions. I was simply drawing a line between the Nirankari and the Ahmadi phenomenon.


WRT to civil rights, my personal belief is that religion should not play a part at all. But, in a state that has ended up defining itself by religion (regardless of the founder`s motives) I think its a tough call to have a secular polity.

Kulharee, Kehdoon tumhe? Ya na kahoon?

Mirza Sahib ney farmaya...tu chal mein toilet hokay aaya... (laugh dammit!!!!)

stuka:

guru gobind wasn`t the last guru.

the current guru is the granth sahib.

isn`t it jang??

HP <<< The problem with Ahmedis is more political in nature than religious. The mullah uses them for political gains... >>>

True the mullah needs non issues to manipulate group solidarity in his favor and distract the starving masses from what is actually causing their misery. Though on a much smaller scale, the mullah uses Ahmadis as scapegoat just like the West uses Muslims as ``the other``. Kulharee in his ignorance supports the higher tyranny while condemning the lesser.

Re: # 90

Asadi Sahib, I can only do so much. I am only human.

#83 what you say may be true for post-partition politics. but to say that ahmedis were strong proponants of pakistan movement is like saying they were strong proponents of quantum physics in italy.

Stuka (#65):

”If Islam says that Mohammad is the Last Prophet …

This is a misleading statement. One may also argue that ... Islam says ... Moses parted the ocean by waving his hand. Note that there is Quran, there are recorded ahadith, and then there are ullema’s views.

View of Quran

Nowhere does Quran call Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the last prophet. I have looked into meaning and context of “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen” (Seal of Prophets) in some details in this regard. Furthermore, Quran suggests that while divine law is consummated in Quran and prophethod reached highest level in propoethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), door to prophethood remains open.

Ahadith

Ahadith are often misquoted to support belief in end of prophethood. An obvious example is where the Prophet (pbuh) reportedly said …

”I am the last prophet and this mosque of mine is the last mosque”

One wonders what does ``last mosque`` here mean?. Clearly this hadith is being misunderstood in context of end of proopehthood. My view is that … last here suggests something along the lines of highest in significance, and that others very well may follow. I hope you get the point.

This hadith has been quoted to me by mullahs on several occasions. But when asked what does ``last mosque`` mean, they get baffled completely. Apparently they do not even bother to read the hadith before reaching a conclusion.

[Which remainds me ... Urstrly, I am still waiting to hear from you on this one. You owe me an explanation ... since you, and not me, earlier raised this hadith. It`s been a while ... you know ...]


Ullema`s views

While ullema of this day and age are in agreement on end of prophethood, several extremely well known scholars throughout history of of Islam have supported continuation of prophethood. Their views are no longer acknowledged by the ullema of this day and age.

I`ll pause here for now ...

sattar2:

You seem to be quite knowledgeable about semitic/abrahamic religions. I would like to ask you a few things:

muslims consider moses, jesus as prophets too whereas i have never heard jews/christians accepting mohd. as gods prophet.

i was thinking if it is the same god that sent all these prophets, wouldn`t jesus/moses would too call god as allah (as mohd. did)

or is it that the word ``allah`` just a common noun and a word for ``god`` in arabic???

#76 by sattar2
“The problem lies in turning this into a legal issue, whereby Ahmadis become criminals for peacefully following Islam.”

This is an astute comment. Declaring ahmedi Muslim or non Muslim thru the constitution or any other means did not amount to much until they unleash laws that made peaceful citizens criminals for following their beliefs.

I don’t agree with atif’s comments about the Ahmedi support of the British. If that is a crime then every single Pakistani can be accused of this crime. Every single Punjabi leader in Punjab before the partition worked with the British in one capacity or the other.

From the religious pov, there is tradition in muslims of people declaring themselves masih/Messiah or the second coming of the Christ. Some were considered crazy and other were killed but ahmedis as a group are the first that are being persecuted for the same declaration.

In Balochistan, there are Muslims who even perform their Haj in Balochistan and not in Mecca. They follow a mix of Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Islam. Most of the coastal population in Balochistan follows that brand of Islam. Nobody has ever bothered to call them non Muslim or anything like that.

The problem with Ahmedis is more political in nature than religious. The mullah uses them for political gains.

OTOH, I might mention that Ahmedis have not withdrawn from the social/political life in Pakistan. Despite stories of their persecution, many Ahmedis are still in pretty good shape. While the mullah and to some extent lower middleclass Punjabis persecute them, on the higher levels ahmedis have many friends.

In fact, some ministers and advisors in Punjab and on Federal level are ahmedi. One of them is a dear friend and a US citizen:)


#55 by jang

I can respond to that with so much sanity that every Hindu ass will burn for days but I will save it for another thread.

#81, Kulaharee {``They will lay down their lives to protect us Ahmadis from these Mullahs``}

Kul,
While I detest you personally, I will defend with my life your right to call yourself a Muslim, an Elk, a Moose, or a member of any club that refuses to let you in. I for one would never join a club that is willing to have me as a member.

Jang, Stuka,
As you can gather from Mullah Atif2`s post, it was the insecurity of Punjabi Sunnis like Maulana Mardoodi that started vicious rumors against the overly successful, overly educated, and overly wealthy Ahmadi minority. Pure and simple, thanks to their emphasis on education and community, Ahmadis rapidly became the creme de la creme of Punjab. This, of course, got the mirchi factor going among people like Atif2 and the rest is history. Bhutto, the great politician who always stood for principles, saw an opportunity to get the solid Punjoo Sunni vote (as if it was going to matter within a few years, anyway). Then Zia came to power and Saudi Arabia had found a new ``prophet`` to convey its Wahabbi message.

stuka i think its nonsese pushed by some that ahmedi as a jamat pushed for pakistan movement. as far as i know there was no dictat issued by the jamat..and this is a well-knit jamat. there were some in this movement from panjabi salariyat.

bangalis also were propponents of pakistan, so what?

anyways, this is silly scheme of issuing certificates..tahmed where are you with your CREIP certificates?

``This supposed ``nationalist`` group was the biggest cheerleader of British colonizers` persecution of Muslims``

I don`t understand this part. I tht the Ahmadis were the biggest proponents of Pakistan???

#53 avkrishna {``I may be wrong, but it looks like the majority of Muslims agree with their Mullahs on this ``}

Krishna Sahib,
You raise a very interesting dichotomy. You see this trademarking of certain people as Muslims and others as non-Muslim is a Wahabbi ploy to divide Muslims against each other until they are the ONLY valid ``Muslims`` and can then control everyone according to their nefarious goals. These Wahabbis, who were spawned by the most extreme school of Sunnis, the Hanbalis, have used the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia to spread their philosophy. They are dead set against Shias and other minority groups within Islam. So, first the Ahmadis, then the Ismailis, then the Asna Ashuri Shias, then the Druzes, and finally liberal Sunnis - are all on the menu.

If the Sunnis, who happen to be the overwhelming majority of Muslims, agree that Shias and other religious sects such as Ahmadis, Druzes, and Ismailis should not count as Muslims then please announce that honestly and openly. Also, please revise your claims to be a religion of 1.2 billion down by approximately 20% or more.

#73 Axey
[There are still a few Good Men left in the Pak Army.]

I am glad you see it that way. If that is the case, why the heck do such good men let this outrage continue? Are they just as impotent as the ``intellectuals`` on this site who disagree with the mistreatment but see nothing wrong with its premise?

What good are such good men? I would call them the following!

GOOD FOR NOTHING!!!

Re: # 78

Beej, I said Good, I didn’t say ``Powerful``. There were souls in the SS that gave refuge to the Jews. I come from a village where half of the village is in the Army, and they are all decent people. They will lay down their lives to protect us Ahmadis from these Mullahs. Sadly, they are not Powerful in this complex world (Saudi sponsorships, Mullah power, and corrupt Army (that still has a few good men).