UPDATE Delhi Explosion in Mosque
Meerut on Fire, Karachi Burns

141

The tragedy of Pakistan is that there are too many `pure` faithfuls who want to boast before others by recommending what caricatures and cartoons others should turn into ............may be some of Salim`s views remains Pakistan`s credible hope for a future which refuses to submit to some of the caricatures that these `pure` Pakistanis want them to submit to.........

Tahmed:

khudai de mal sha awo pa khair ossay wrora (tr. may God be
with you and may you live in peace o brother)

For a 24 year old, Salim will remain a mystery.

For one, he is too unflexible for his age group. I have tested him by getting into a debate with him on couple of occasions. He is so adamant about his viewpoint that if you press him a little more, he shows the tendency of going off track and turn nasty on you. A characteristic 24 year old shows lots of tendency to learn from others.

2nd, for a traveler he has a very guttery language and does not avoid throwing it to the females. Also, having spent almost all his life abroad (USA) and in traveling, he shows too much affinity with ``desi`` community and the corresponding knowledge base.

3rd, for a Pakistani appreciating arjun_m is a total give away. You may recall that once upon a time, GODOT used to write anti-Pakistani articles on Chowk. If you recall that I had thrashed him in early 2004 on writing such an article. Now look at Godot. After spending all that time on Chowk, he thrashes all the fundoo Indiots and has not posted a single anti-Pakistani post. I will give you my personal example. I had come on this website (in 2002) to see if I could post something against Punjabis. However, after going through the posts of Indiots at that time (which ranged from anti-Pakistan to anti-Islam to anti-Prophet, etc.) I quickly got diverted hahaha. What I am trying to say is that on this board, it is very difficult to be Pakistani and be posting anti-Pakistan messages for too long.

Finally, calling Punjabis as Panjus is surprising. Mohajirs call Punjabis as Punjaibies (meaning with 5 religious faults), Paindoos, Paindoo paas, Dhaggas, 60%, Chopayas, etc. Btw, Mohajirs call Pakhtuns `Akhrots` meaning walnut :-)

As to his point that he is out there pointing mistakes of Pakistan to Pakistanis then he is going for the wrong audience. I don`t think there is a single Pakistani on Chowk who is capable of changing anything that Salim wants to change. So in a sense, his buddy arjun_m and he are of the same class - humiliate those who are of Pakistani origin.

And if he calls himself Pakistani then perhaps you and I should start calling ourselves Indians and start posting all those reform India messages.

Here is my first message as an Indian: I think we Indians need to put our house in order first before pointing fingers at Pakistanis. We Indians should learn good things from them Pakistanis. We Indians should try to get united and not be embroiled with in freedom movements in northeast, Kashmir and other places. We Indians should not have treated Indian Punjabis so poorly that we slaughtered 40,000 of them in the 80s.

What is your opinion Tahmed jee?

Allah pa aman.

Re: # 135
>>Yes, I am a Bihari when it comes to stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh. (T)
Yes, I am an Ahmedi when it comes to persecuted Ahmedis in Pakistan.(T)
Yes, I am a Shia when it comes to suffering Shias in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq (T)
Yes, I am a low-caste Hindu when it comes to Dalits suffering in India
Yes, I am a Kshatrya Hindu when it comes to minority Hindus suffering in Pakistan or Bangladesh or when Hindus can`t have their temple in Saudi Arabia.
Yes, I am a Sikh when it comes to discrimination against them because they look ``Muslim,`` or when their religion is under threat in India or their property and lives were taken during Partition. (T) <<<<<<<<<<


Well said Salim Bhai. Aaap hamara dhosth hain.

Hasanmahmood #131 {``when the only reason why they are even calling India their own is because of the sacrifices that we made for them in our fght against the British rule. ...So maybe these people who are hurling insults at you think of you as just another hindu heen wala.``}

Hasan Bhai,
Thank you for understanding why I raise the points that I do. My issue is not a mud-slinging contest between Indians and Pakistanis to determine who smells worse or who can throw the most mud. My interest is in solving problems together so that the sacrifices we made together in encouraging the British to leave are not wasted. I am sorry to note that while many Muslims languished in British jails, the leaders of the Muslim League were not among these patriots. Several times during WWII, these League guys collaborated with the British.

Now, if, for the sake of keeping Indians in the dark, I have to shut up and not talk about the injustices being perpetrated by Pakistani government against its own citizens, then I would be the bigger fool. If you ignore cancer in your own body just to keep the opponents ``fooled,`` then guess what?

By the way, I hope you notice that there is more respect for each other, tolerance for variety of views, and pride in citizenship among Indians than there is among Pakistanis. I wonder why?

arjun_m

``tell me..are we to assume that it`s not out of the ordinary for a muslim person to kill a non-muslim person for allah?

How many hindus has killed (suicide bomb) their fellow hindus or in INDIAs case, how many hindus has targeted other religion in the name of RAM??? Well the answer is many but i want to hear from you.

#136, Mr. Tahmed Sahib,
How quickly you descend into the realm of personal insults! Sir, there are several other ladies, both Indian and Pakistani, that I get along very well with - Zeena, Aman, Jawahara, just to mention a few. I have issues with hypocrites regardless of gender. I have noticed that you, on occasion, have been less than polite and not in control of your better judgment, when responding to anjum_m, who happens to be an extremely polite interactor.

Regardless, my issue with you is neither personal nor ideological. I have accumulated a level of contempt for your racist, bigoted, hypocritical attitude about which Pakistanis you are willing to let back into Pakistan, while you selflessly and courageously serve the interests of Pakistan from your exile in comfort and safety in the United States. Have a nice day and if you do not complain about my viewpoints, I will let you pontificate yours. Live and let live. There is no law that says I can`t criticize Pakistan for its shortcomings.

#134 Mr. Salim - ``No sir, you did not directly insult my wife or family. ``

That means I indirectly insulted them. If there was any truth to this, you would have cut and paste what I wrote. So you are faking it.

As for this ``composite complaint`` accusing Pakistanis of lacking manners based on your exchanges of insults with people on unplugged - give me a break. I notice that 4 out of the 6 posters on unplugged you mention are women. And I have read the lewd remarks about these women that you write with a view to provoking them which some of them foolishly do while others try to ignore you. So if anyone lacks manners of civilized behavior it is you.

As for the other two - Atif and Khamkhwa - I agree they launch into personal insults and (in case of khamkhwa) are in the same league as you in the sense of baiting women on chowk with lewd remarks. But to make them the basis of your ``composite complaint`` accusing Pakistanis of uncivilized behavior simply illustrates what I wrote in #131 about your capacity to put on the clothes of a victim when in fact it is you who is the perpetrator.

As for the ``stranded Pakistanis`` and other issues i have already made my views clear in #129 and you are welcome to your views as you now express them, ignoring what I said.

Tahmed Sahib #133, and Hasanmahmood Sahib #131,

They can call me what they want. I will continue to speak out for the oppressed, the weak, those without a voice, and those who have been run over by the strong, the greedy, and the bigoted.

Yes, I am a Bihari when it comes to stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh. (T)
Yes, I am an Ahmedi when it comes to persecuted Ahmedis in Pakistan.(T)
Yes, I am a Shia when it comes to suffering Shias in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq (T)
Yes, I am a low-caste Hindu when it comes to Dalits suffering in India
Yes, I am a Kshatrya Hindu when it comes to minority Hindus suffering in Pakistan or Bangladesh or when Hindus can`t have their temple in Saudi Arabia.
Yes, I am a Sikh when it comes to discrimination against them because they look ``Muslim,`` or when their religion is under threat in India or their property and lives were taken during Partition. (T)

Yes, I am a Bihari Qadiani Hindu Shiah Sikh Dalit and proud of it.

#129, Tahmed Sahib,
No sir, you did not directly insult my wife or family. My post #128 was addressed to both you and Ahmadzai Sahib. In that post I did list several Pakistani interactors who have been very abusive personally against me, my wife, my mother, my father, and my sister-in-law. These people include Atif2, Khamkhwa, Scout, Succubus, Sobia, and Saminasha. So, sir in this composite complaint I was listing several people responsible for my disappointment with Pakistani sense of manners and civilized behavior.

Now, let`s turn to your stubborn insistence that the ``stranded Pakistanis`` in Bangladesh have no right to return to Pakistan. Unlike the Mexicans you compared them to, these people were and are Pakistani citizens. They paid dearly with blood, property, and suffering for having supported Pakistan and collaborating with the Pakistani Army - the cowards who surrendered to friendly fellow-Punjabi Sikhs to save their own hides and abandoning their ``Bihari`` cohorts to the arbitray justice and cruel treatment meted out by the victorious Mukti Bahini. Your ridicule of their suffering is the primary reason for my being upset with your bigotry and racism. Sir, the very Indians that you accuse of all sorts of depravity, always welcome their own - even those who migrated to Fiji and Guyana several generations ago. I, as someone only partially of Hindu blood, am always welcomed with warmth and hospitality in India, despite my Muslim first name and Pakistani connections.

Yes, my grandfather, as millions of Muslims from India, did migrate to Pakistan in 1947. His religious zeal and youthful patriotism were soon foiled by the bigotry, racism, and intolerance of the ``sons of the soil.`` Can I help it if our Punjabi ``brethren`` excel in alienating otherwise patriotic Pakistanis - Bengalis, Sindis, Mohajirs, Baluchis, Pathans, Kashmiris/Gligitis/Baltistanis?

Sir, please read the last paragraph of your post #129 and try to understand why this racist and hypocritical attitude dilutes the confidence of Pakistanis who happen to be minorities.

#131 Please read my response (#129) to Mr. Salim`s post before rushing to judgement on who is insulting whom. Mr. Salim has a great capacity to make himself seem the victim of insults when in fact it is who has been indulging in uncalled for insults on Pakistanis and other ethnic groups in Pakistan.

majumdar #127 the number of people on chowk hasnt grown very much in the past 7 years I have been here. that is what I was referring to. if chowk staff respected their own guidelines and cut out these gratuitous slurs based on nationality, ethnicity or religion - then chowk would be a place where we could invite friends and colleagues and relatives to participate, and chowk membership could have grown both in terms of numbers as well as the quality of discussions and articles.

That is what I meant.

Re: # 128
Salim, I read your answer and being a Pakistani I agree whole-heartedly with the points you are making. However, on chowk, there are many Hindus or Heeng-walas as we like to call them who have the audacity to hurl insults at Pakistan when the only reason why they are even calling India their own is because of the sacrifices that we made for them in our fght against the British rule. Do you really think that Gandhi alone would have been able to take India. When we hear these people actually talking about how good India is it, it reminds us of the child sacrifices, the satis, the poverty, and the dirtiness of India and we laugh. We are not goras who ll of a sudden love the hari raam hari krishna life style of these idiots. We all know too well, who these people are and why they will always be third rate people in this world.
So maybe these people who are hurling insults at you think of you as just another hindu heen wala.

Re: # 5
dear nb...thank you for your comments. While we practice psychotherapy we learn from

our patients so that we have a better understab=nding of human suffering and find ways

to help them. I only share personal stories of patients when they give me their blessing

otherwise it is discussed in genral terms. I am glad you are exploring your passion and you

have a superviser to guide you. I really enjoyed my student life at Memorial University

though it seems a long time ago now. sincerely sohail

MR. Salim: Please dont accuse me of things I didnt write. Where did I attack your wife, for example? I did raise an issue about the type of upbringing you received given your habit of making gratuitous and insulting remarks about ``panjoos``. If you translate that to mean an ``attack on your father``, rather than a ``reflection on your upbringing`` then obviously there is no point in trying to bring anything to your attention since you are not willing to listen.

Nor have I labelled you an Indian, as you indicate. It is Ahmedzai who was speculating on your nationality given your uncalled for ridicule of Pakistanis. You may wish to explain to him why you hate non-muhajir Pakistanis even though your parents preferred Pakistan to India in 1947, but dont raise this question with me. I really dont care why you hate Pakistanis and us ``panjoos``.

As for the ``stranded Pakistanis`` you keep bringing up: Hindus and sikhs who had to leave their homes in 1947 have a right to come to Pakistan because of this injustice, and I have spoken out on this issue on chowk. Biharis on the other hand, for whom Pakistan has never been an ancestral home obviously have only one reason to come to Pakistan, namely economic betterment. I used to be sympathetic to these biharis, but no more given the politics of ethnic hatred that their fellow biharis brought with them to Pakistan (similar to what, as discussed above, you have displayed). And contrary to your views, these biharis have no more ``right`` to come to Pakistan than the mexicans (who wrap themselves in the US flag, like the biharis wrap themselves in the Pakistan flag) have a ``right`` to come to the US.

Mr. Tahmed Sahib and Ahmadzai Sahib,
It is very easy to label a fellow Pakistani as an Indian when you have to hear some bitter truths and need to dismiss them rapidly without wasting any soul-searching. Instead of looking for ethnic/national IDs, you should dwell on the issues raised by me. Simply assuming that, because I speak out against the policies of Pakistan’s ruling majority, I must be an Indian Hindu masquerading as a Muslim, or worse, an Indian Muslim masquerading as a Pakistani, is not going to solve the real issues that really exist. Attacking my family, my wife, my mother, and my father is not going to salvage what is left of Pakistan. Raising questions and providing your own answers about my domicile, my ethnicity, my international travel, and my wife’s religious affiliation (She must be an Alawite!) are not going to eradicate the numerous problems that exist in Pakistan thanks to the hegemony of the ruling majority.

May I remind you that at one time (circa 1970), Bengalis were patriotic Pakistanis, but no more? Today, Punjab is at war with Baluchistan, NWFP, and even with Gilgit/Baltistan. The slaughter of Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad has been temporarily halted due to Mushy`s regime. Sindhis are not welcome as equal partners by the ruling elite. Who knows what will happen if the Saraikis start insisting about their inalienable rights in southern Punjab?

Forsaking your own people in Bangladesh and then calling them ``stranded Biharis,`` while trivializing their ordeal and ridiculing their suffering, is not going to instill confidence in Pakistani citizenship. Mr. Tahmed, please don`t joke about these ``stranded`` Pakistanis and then expect people to sincerely mourn the earthquake victims, who in your opinion are more deserving of sympathy. Is it because they happen to be ethnically closer to you? Please don’t tag people to wish away the truth. Also, please don’t take people’s patriotism for granted permanently. You have a unique way of turning many people from Mujib to Bangabandhu.

Your intolerance against minorities and those who disagree with you is the catalyst for the downfall and disintegration of Pakistan. People like arjun-m are merely trying, in their own polite way, to remind Pakistan of its promises, its sins, and its lost vision. I will be more than happy, for the sake of Pakistan and its unfortunate citizens, to take up his mission, should he depart, move on, or, khuda na khwasta, meet a truck not of his choosing. :)

In the future, while you and your countrymen use personal insults against my family and me to thwart my efforts, I will engage in a polite, civilized, and sincere manner to expose the hypocrisy exhibited by Pakistan and its ruling majority.

Tahmed sahib,

(Mr. Kumar #98 Finally....I am glad some Indian finally spoke up (in addition to swarrier, that is). It is too easy for empty minds with nothing to write about other than ridicule and abuse to other communities that have no doubt kept chowk from growing beyond where it is today (which of course violates chowk guidelines, I may add).

You are completely wrong. If chowk can grown so big, it is becuase Hindians and Pakis, hanuds and Muslas find chowk a convenient place to hurl abuses on each other.

Regards