What Really is an Islamic State?

``I hold no personal grudge``

Is that why you were hurling abusing shamelessly on the other board.

HP has already responded to your post... M N Roy was a great secular humanist and I find myself in 99% agreement with his ideas... but I admit the reason I first got attracted to M N Roy`s ideas was when I discovered what his views were on Gandhi... that was the clincher. Infact I can safely say that not even the worst Pakistani bigot has said things about Gandhi that M N Roy has said about him.

As for you can go on calling me fundo etc etc... I am sure I have a more religion-neutral world view than you.

HP Sahib,

I see you have omitted Ms. Asma Jahangir`s name.

Regards

#71 by VRV

I don’t wanna get into this childish spat but there are people some dead and some alive who have worked hard for human rights in Pakistan and would sure qualify for secular humanist.

1. Faiz Ahmed Faiz,
2. Habib Jalib,
3. Ahmed Faraz
4. Imam Ali Nazish
5. Mazhar ali khan (tariq Ali Khan`s father)

Alive
6. Sobho Gianchandani( my guru)
7. Tahira Mazhar
8. Jam Saqi
9. Zahida Hina
10. Afrasiab Khattak
11. Ajmal Khatak

There are many more that I can name but I guess you needed only one name…Please order dinner for Yassar….

Re: # 70

Monto,

I would like you to name a contemporary Secular Humanist from Pakistan, who rips majoritarian religion of Pakistan and upholds the necessity to inculcate the fundametals of radical humanism (a la our Indian chacha V.M.Tarkunde) . I would promise you a sumptious lunch in UK or Bombay. We all knew and you knew yourself that you are not a secular humanist. Any admiration for MN Roy is posturing or plain falsehood.

I would like to come back at you in July not now.

I knew you were a 3-piece suit fundo with SAP qualification. We have some guys like you in India as well (poor fellas, they are in minority). Our guys are not courtageous enough to ignite suicide bombs, whereas your guys are. I dont know what is in your mind.

I hold no personal grudge. This is calsh of ideas.

VRV

Dear Majumdar...

VRV`s comments were directed at me.... I am the ``fundoo`` from the other side, because he was too busy to provide his ``sharp arguments``. I am more interested in getting your thoughts on M N Roy- the great secular humanist- on the other board.

VRV sahib,

(I see you as an elderly person with level-headedness. )

I hope 33 is not elderly- as far as level-headedness is considered, you are entitled to your opinion.

(why loonies from the other side get bigger space than loonies (religious extremists) from our side. )

I do not know what chowk`s editorial policies are but I hope they allow all kinds of opinions to be voiced on the chowk including fundamentalism of all kinds. Hopefully, if the fundoos hear out different viewpoints, they may rethink their own positions.

(I knew that the mainstream on our side is different from mainstream on that side; may be that is why there are more religion-linked concepts flowing out their pens. )

To some extent I agree with you. Most educated urban upper middle class (that`s the profile I suppose of the average chowkie) Hindus would agree that their religion cannot be considered perfect and that secular laws of nations should get priority over their personal beliefs and religious customary laws. In contrast many Muslims of Pak origin and similar social profile would perhaps disagree although it is equally true that many others would.

Regards

Sanjay mian,

My understanding of you is along the same lines my dear fellow.

#60 ML

..and one more thing Manto.. I will talk to you next when I am convinced that you are trying to break your shell to come out in the world. Till then _ _ _ _

#60 MANTOLIVES

You tend to look at the world through a very narrow prism. Widen your horizons dear.

Re: # 62

Majumdar saab,

I see you as an elderly person with level-headedness.

I am no proponent of Hindu Rastra but as a meeting point (Chowk as they call it) of the people of Pakistan and Hindustan (together is India) I am putting across a question as to why loonies from the other side get bigger space than loonies (religious extremists) from our side.

I knew that the mainstream on our side is different from mainstream on that side; may be that is why there are more religion-linked concepts flowing out their pens.

OK.

VRV

Thankyou for your kind words.

Manto,

Re: 62

Very true sir, agreed.

If it is any consolation to you the fact that the Pakistani state behaves like a stepmother both in theory and practise to some of its citizens does not take away from the fact that many Pakistanis like yourself, tahmed sahib and Salimbhai believe in a nation that should provide dignity and justice to all its citizens.

Regards

Dear Majumdar...

Just as soon as some on the other side realise that Pakistan - which was envisaged as the mother to all its citizens and remains as such even if at times like Bharat mata or even worse than Bharat mata it acts in a step motherly fashion - and the concept of a theocratic state that was forwarded only by those Muslims who opposed its very creation...

Failure to differentiate between the two... would force me not to differentiate between Bharat Mata (essentially an ancient Hindu concept rooted in scripture and not in history), Hindu Rashtra and Ram Rajya.

Modern India is a nation state borne out of political reality just like Pakistan.

Manto,

(Glad to see you chaps making such forceful arguments against the Bharat Mata and its existence. )

You need to distinguish between Bharat Mata, which is Mother India to all its citizens, and Hindu Rashtra which is a stepfather to many of its citizens, especially the minorities. (like Pakistan)

(I believe in ordinary democratic state with sovereignty resting unconditionally with the people. It might be flawed... but it is the only system that works. )

As Churchill put it, ``Democracy is the worst system of governance except for all others``

Regards

Dear VRV, sanjay...

Glad to see you chaps making such forceful arguments against the Bharat Mata and its existence.

More power to you.

Re: # 58

Sanjay,

It`s like Aaj Tak advt: Aaankhein Kholei.. or something like that.

I agree with u.


VRV