Reservations and the Media

I read the article below in Hindu and its a wonderful piece in which the author offers a non-partisan support to reservations in IITs and IIMs.

Abhishek Behl



Eviscerating a holy cow
NISHEETH SRIVASTAVA
LET US NOT DELUDE OURSELVES. IIT IS A VERY EFFICIENT AND CONSISTENT BREEDING GROUND FOR PRODUCTIVE MEDIOCRITY
It is very fashionable for the young upper middle class `global` Indian citizen to inveigh against the `sectarian`, `populist` and `parochial` policies of the government. The article `Reservation saga` (Open Page, April 23) denouncing 27 per cent reservation for OBCs in the IITs and IIMs falls under this category. It seeks to question the validity of the anti-reservation lobby. As a specific case, we will examine their claims with regard to IIT.

The most feasible approach towards analysing the argument against reservation in IIT is to view the underlying axioms that its proponents cheerfully assume to be unquestionably true.
The most banal of them all is the presumption that the IITs are merit-based `prestigious` `temples of education` that command international respect.
Centres of excellence?
Merit-based? As of JEE 2004, more than 25 per cent entrants to IIT had been enrolled in a coaching institute named FIIT-JEE. The curriculum is based on analysing trends in JEE papers and focusing students` preparation on mindless precision in solving problems to clear the JEE.
The fee for the two-year course is upwards of Rs. 40,000. And FIIT-JEE is but one of myriads of coaching institutes that populate the high-school education system in our cities. Vidyamandir in Delhi, Ramaiah in Hyderabad and Bansal in Kota are household names in the society of JEE aspirants.
All these institutes, with perhaps the honourable exception of Vidyamandir, concentrate on rote-repetition and practice to prepare candidates for the JEE.

Prestigious? Infosys recruits upwards of 50 B. Tech students, from a batch of about 500, to work as software-writing minions at a salary of Rs. 11,000 a month. The IIT system has acquired a reputation for producing `techno-clerks` to create wealth for the burgeoning Indian economy. That`s not prestige; it`s pragmatism.

Temples of education? Of the 180 credits that a B. Tech student is required to accumulate towards completing his degree, how many do not relate to science and technology? A grand total of twelve — including an instructional course in English. How much flexibility does a B. Tech student possess in deciding his course work? None.

Let us not delude ourselves. IIT is a very efficient and consistent breeding ground for productive mediocrity. It generates graduates with a one-dimensional view of the world and with an intellectual horizon stunted to perform in a particular field of economic activity, viz. technology.

This leads us to the crux of the argument against reservation — there should be no regulations upon excellence. ``Why not have reservation in the army? Is education not as important as defence?`` goes the plaintive cry. Such an argument would have much merit if we were speaking of actual centres of research that do indeed strive for creative and disciplined endeavour — TIFR, BARC and IISc are the first examples that spring to mind.
But to raise such an argument in favour of the IITs evinces an almost criminal disregard for the ground reality.
Even a cursory perusal of campus culture in the IITs — their cultural hierarchy, their social interactions, their means of recreation, etc., paints a definitive picture of IIT students as self-aggrandising delusional brats living off the fat of the land in the form of subsidies that an indulgent government continues to ritually bestow upon a system that has deviated so far from its founding principles that it betokens those who feel responsible for it to look the other way.

It is instructive to note that the only opposition to the reservation proposal arises from the sections of society that will `suffer` as a consequence — the self-labelled `Forward Class.` Both the faculty and the administration of these markedly autonomous institutes have expressed no views publicly on the matter.
Does this not imply that a concern regarding the dilution of merit as a consequence of the reservation is groundless? Either that or, as is more likely, the faculty at these institutes is too blasé to view any change as making a difference to the commercially guided ethos that prevails.
Suggestion
Thus, the argument against reservation ought to be viewed for what it is — a self-serving, pompous plaint. A parallel could be drawn, without much exaggeration, with the righteous indignation of the French aristocracy at the time of the Revolution. While a caste-based reservation system may be opposed on other principles, the argument that it would dilute the quality of the intellectual product it offers India is flawed because it presupposes that such quality actually exists. This is an extremely narcissistic claim.
(The writer is a student at IIT Madras)

``The above examples are not exceptions but the norm. Perhaps, this is due to the fact that ninety-nine percent of the Indian media is controlled by the upper caste and class conscious intelligentsia. Most of the journalists writing and producing stories might have their own constraints and the interests of their own to take care of. .``
This is a completely foolish statement.

1) The move by Arjun Singh is completely political.ARjun Singh is no savior of OBC`sjust an opportunist.

2)Reservations over the period of more than 50 years havent led to the betterment of majority of the people ot was aimed at.It was created a creamy SC/ST layer nothing else

3) Reservations ironically has stratified the Indian society in terms of caste.

4) there are other avenues for reaching out to the backward classes for eg free primary education, scholarships etc.

5) Reservation greately bring down the merit of an institute.An employer will first ask the candidate whether his/her seat was reserved or free....Just imagine going to a doctor who has cleared his MBBS on 10 years with a minimum passing grade..who got the seat at a lower benchmark.

SO MR BEHL DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE MAKING SUCH STRONG STATEMENTS

Re: # 20

Just a correction here... the Constitution (Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes) Orders (Amendment) Act, 1956 provides for inclusion of Dalit Sikhs in the list of the Scheduled Castes.

Re: # 63

1. Sorry I didn`t get your point here.

2. This is a totally weak argument. If Communism is against religion, the strongest enemy to it would be the most fanatical of all religions, Islam. Islamic countires like Pakistan might work with China for other geo-political reasons, but they will always be against a god less philosophy. A better example to consider is how the Mullahs all over the Islamic world rallied against Pro-Communist rule in Afghanistan.

And your US example is weak too. You know very well that US is against Communism for a whole bunch of other reasons,

Thanks,

Re: # 58

1. It is only MUSLIMS who would lose/gain the most by reservations.
Hindus do not benefit/lose out due to reservations.

2. Interesting you talked about comies. Do you know that Pakistan grouped with atheist China? Or that it was in fact the `liberal` Americans who had a problem as long as Russia was opposed to organised religion?

Hello every one

This article seems to have touched the raw nerve and the response has been quite interesting and people from different backgrounds have thrown their hats in the ring.
Some of you must be upper caste hindus, some perhaps Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and some belong to the depressed classes and the like.
Whatever has been said against or in favour of the issue but one thing remains clear that our society is too much divided on reservations.
Now, the issue becomes how to reconcile the inherent difference of the different people living in India.
On one hand are the SC/STs along with OBCs which forms the major chunk of the population, and on the other are influential upper caste hindus, who have held power for last thousand of years, but are relatively less in number.
And they have held to power not by using force but by evolving a spiritual and philosophical formula based on division of labour called, Chaturvarna.
This system which was an excellent experiment to divide the society into an efficient economic and political system, denigerated into a tool which unfortunately kept the majority of the low caste population of this country into a kind of mental, moral and social slavery.
Now, the greatest issue pehaps is not reservations, they are no doubt a handy tool, but the important issue is as to how to make the twains meet.
The upper castes, due to the thousands of years of dominace which has seeped into their genetic system are not willing to yield ground.
On the other side, the Shudras are challenging this domination and democracy had made their tasks very.
No reliigious or superfluous social theory is being used by the lower castes to uproot the powerful edifice created by their erstwhile masters.
They are just taking the democractic route a wee bit further, and with their overwhelming numbers they are smothering the powerful clique of the rich and powerul caste Hiindus.
The problem is that neither the low caste hindus have developed so much abilibity to completely push out the brahmin-Bania clique nor the the latter have numerical strength to outclass their rivals.
The coming days are going to see a see-saw battle between two groups, which will fought very hard and will have definitily some important ramifications.
This is likely to change the whole politicalscape of this country and will answer many questions in the future and perhaps give us a way to reconcile the interests of the Indian people.

Abhishek Behl

Re: # 35

Dilli, ``thenga`` does not mean ``thumbs up``, in fact quite the opposite...an equivalent would be the American ``diddly sqwat``in this context...

Re: # 21

LOL Gujju.

Ref parthaab #55

There is now a move afoot to compile a census of Muslims in the Armed Forces of India to determine if they are proportionately represented.

Numbers such as 2% are being bandied about as the percentage of Indian Muslims in the Indian Army as opposed to their 14% number in the total population.

Now, Muslim scholars have been justifying the jizya on the basis that kaffirs were exempt from military service in Islamic sultanates and so the Islamic government rightfully levied the jizya on Hindus for the protection that they received from an army in which they could not participate.

By the same logic, shouldn`t India now levy a jizya on Indian Muslims? If Indian Muslims are not serving in the Indian Army but receiving the security of living in a peaceful country, they have the obligation to support the army by paying an additional tax.

What do you think?

How about all the apologists for Islamic thuggery in India? Do you think the Government of India should impose a jizya-like tax on Indian Muslims?

Re: # 55

I know you commies are devious, but I didn`t realize you are this stupid..

Tirade against Hinduism and exploiting the caste divisions is the only way you sustain in this country. But dont be foolish enough to go about advocating reservations based on religion esp. Islam. Islam and Communism cannot co-exist. You must have realized at least that by now..

Ref parthaab #55

[The proportion of SC/STs and OBCs graduating from high school is close to 43 per cent. The SC/STs share of high school graduates (16.7 per cent) is 68 per cent of their share in the population (24.4 per cent), the OBCs are only 1.5 percentage points below their proposed representation (26 per cent of high school graduates vs 27.5 per cent quota in colleges).

These simple statistics should make us sit up and take notice. The one group that needs government support the most is Muslims. Only 7.4 per cent of children graduating from high school are Muslims, whereas their share in the population (Census 2001) is 13.4 per cent, i.e. their shortfall is 45 per cent (ratio of 7.4 and 13.4 is 55 per cent).]

You are so right!

The quickest solution would not be reservations for Muslims. That would take years (12 years of achool + years of college, etc.) The quickest way would be to convert all educated Hindus at the point of the sword to Islam. By doing this, the representation of Muslims in the professions and in the government -- as well as in the private sector, which should please Arjun Singh & Company -- would go up instantly, bringing everything to approximate equality or even Muslim over-representation among the educated segment of society.

The positive impact of this can be seen in Pakistan which received ``all the educated middle- and upper-class Indian Muslims depriving those left behind in India of their role-models and leadership``. I believe Pakistan is a beacon of democracy, peace and progress in an otherwise dismal South Asia.

We also have the shining examples of Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Bangladesh, etc., to teach us what great Muslim societies can achieve. And who can forget Afghanistan with its great accomplishments in science, technology, space, nuclear research, women`s rights, etc.?

In fact, one has to only look at the 1000 years of Islamic rule in India and affirmative action for Muslims to tell us why we need more affirmative action for Indian Muslims. What glorious progress did India make during those times!

Hey, parthaab, go for it! Go to the nearest mosque and get yourself snipped. Change your name to Allah Ditta or Khuda Bux. If you have pretensions to higher social standing, you might want to call yourself a Sayyid or a Mirza.

What have you got to lose except your foreskin?

It bothers me when some people wake up from their comfortable bed one day and decide to become supporter of Reservation, as it is fashionable.

Those of my friends who went to school/college with me and whose parents lived in same neighbourhoods like me and whose parents are already IAS/IFS/IPS/IAAS etc. And then all of a sudden they make it to top colleges and other institutions and I have to work hard to make it anywhere.

Is it fair? Is that Reservation is about?

There is no accoutability. Meanwhile poor people are still poor and being exploited.

Shame on this facade.

The proportion of SC/STs and OBCs graduating from high school is close to 43 per cent. The SC/STs share of high school graduates (16.7 per cent) is 68 per cent of their share in the population (24.4 per cent), the OBCs are only 1.5 percentage points below their proposed representation (26 per cent of high school graduates vs 27.5 per cent quota in colleges).

These simple statistics should make us sit up and take notice. The one group that needs government support the most is Muslims. Only 7.4 per cent of children graduating from high school are Muslims, whereas their share in the population (Census 2001) is 13.4 per cent, i.e. their shortfall is 45 per cent (ratio of 7.4 and 13.4 is 55 per cent).

In contrast, the shortfall for SC/STs is 32 per cent. For the OBCs, the shortfall is a minuscule 4 per cent. Very few people, and no one from the politically conscious and politically correct Congress party, are pushing through policies to help those who need it the most—the Muslims.

Today, the SC/STs have a 117 per cent chance of entering college, the rest of the population only 74 per cent. Since some states already have some reservation policy for OBCs, the chance for an OBC to today enter college is somewhat higher than the probability for Muslims and upper-caste Hindus, and Sikhs, and Christians, etc. With the implementation of the Congress party law on reservations, the chance for an OBC would increase substantially to 93 per cent, and that for non-OBC and non-SC/ST Hindus and Muslims would decrease to 65 per cent, i.e. an able SC/ST will have double the chance of entering college, and an able OBC 50 per cent more chance of entering college, than an able upper caste Hindu or Muslim.

Given this reality, it is quite unfair of Mr Advani or the BJP to accuse Congress of ``appeasing`` the Muslims. If anything, they have consistently acted, and are now acting, against the interests of the minorities, especially the Muslims.

Farzanas lament about the weak PR of muslims, as seen in their absence in the media should be blamed, it seems.

one industry, which arjun singh is familiar with thanks to his pals amitabh, jaya, shabana and raj babbar, which should implement 90% reservation is the film industry and limit muslim actors to 25%.

an agitation should be held with support from these luminaries to demand that 70% reservations be granted for all acting, directing, editing, script and song writing, music, art and so on for next 25 years at least. i would strongly support this. why?

1. its a reasonably inexpensive social-engineering experiment
2. if successful, much can be learnt and will teach the high-caste a lesson showing that they dont have control on creativity
3. if fails, we can analyze why the failure

we will see almost everyone supportive of this except the financier bhais, but they will come around, we can make arjun singh commisioner of bhai-liason office, with a 3% cut on all financing. azim-mian or pundit narayan murthy or murhoom sardar parvinder singh would haev no problem.

here is how ali welcomes ``converts``

Started by ali_1 on April 22, 2006 6:50am PT
Take low caste converts from the gangetic plain, allow them to in-breed with their cousin sisters, give them last names like syed, usmani (use some fukking algorithm, doodhvala --> syed, maashki --> siddiqui, bhangi --> farooqui) and a few generations later you get the likes of kaka.

Add to that a university that prints BA, LLB and BEd degrees faster than all toilet paper printed in Pakistan, and you get the arrogance of being the ``most`` educated community in pakistan.....

kakay bhaRvay, if you want to get the paan stains off your rotten teeth, try gargling with a pothohari`s mootar

Ref bharath #50

[Re: # 47

Very inspiring story. Did the chief minister oblige? Is he still around?]

Yes, on both counts.

Ref ali_1 #34

[Once Dalits have empowered themselves by embracing a monesthetic faith, would they force feed the brahmins like harimau and indian007 in a similar manner?


Two Dalits in Tiruchi district are made to eat each others excrement]

Chances are a 1000-to-1 that the perpetrators of this crime are the OBCs for whom Abhishek Behl is shedding tears in this article.

By the way, ali_1, the Islamic faith calls for the force-feeding of beef to non-believers. Have you forgotten that?

Re: # 47
#47 by harimau on April 22, 2006 4:08am PT
>>>>>The Collector of Cuddalore District is a keshadhari Sikh named Gagandeep Singh Bedi. His work during the recent floods was so appreciated by the local people that they surrounded the Chief Minister during her visit and asked her not to transfer him to any other district<<<<

Very inspiring story. Did the chief minister oblige? Is he still around?



Ref Ali_1 #34

>>>>[Once Dalits have empowered themselves by embracing a monesthetic faith, would they force feed the brahmins like harimau and indian007 in a similar manner?
Two Dalits in Tiruchi district are made to eat each others excrement)<<<<

Some of the most cruel violence is unleashed amongst the ``lower`` castes, which is even more unfortunate. Both major political parties in this place u are quoting are products of pro-dalit movement. U can not survive there if you don`t prove ur pro-dalit credentials. Brahmins will be lynched if they contemplate anything like what is described in this story.

Re: # 40
abey salay, kitney login hai tere.

Ferzana: please take a note of this imposter.

Ref Maharana #16

[Lastly, a lot of oppression in the past by upper castes cannot translate into a reservation for jobs. By that logic, all hindus, sikhs and jains oppressed by muslims also should get reservation in educational institutes and jobs.]

That is NOT how it works in India.

In Andhra, the Congress government reserved 5% of professional college seats FOR Muslims!

Ref delhiwala #28

I[ wish Sikhs had reservation for IAS in nineties. I flunked in Mains... ]

No need for reservations for Sikhs in the IAS. Sikhs can and have made it on merit to top jobs all over India and not just in the Armed Forces.

The Collector of Cuddalore District is a keshadhari Sikh named Gagandeep Singh Bedi. His work during the recent floods was so appreciated by the local people that they surrounded the Chief Minister during her visit and asked her not to transfer him to any other district.

On the other hand, the erstwhile Collector of Nagapattinam District named Veerashanmughamoney (synonyms: Masanamuthu, Sudalaikkannu and Sangilikkaruppan) was summarily transferred two weeks after the tsunami. His replacement, Dr. Radhakrishnan, went to Sri Lanka to advise their government on tsunami relief activities and even went to the US to participate in a symposium on disaster relief and recovery, both at the instances of the host governments.

Dr. Radhakrishnan is a brahmin.

Ref ali_1 #34

[Once Dalits have empowered themselves by embracing a monesthetic faith, would they force feed the brahmins like harimau and indian007 in a similar manner?


Two Dalits in Tiruchi district are made to eat each others excrement


On September 5, at Kaundampatti in Dindigul district, Sankan, a Dalit agricultural worker, was forced to drink urine — for having lodged with the police a complaint of trespass against a caste Hindu.

An equally horrifying incident occurred at Thinniyam village in Tiruchi district on May 22. Two Dalits, Murugesan and Ramasami, were forced ``to feed each other`` human excreta.]

Check on the facts in both cases.

I am willing to bet US$1 million that no brahmins were involved. Go ahead, prove me wrong. You could be rich!

The offer also goes to Masanamuthu as well as Soysauce. (They know better than to take the bait.)

By the way, this is what happens when non-Brahminical values are touted as the answer to India`s social ills. That experiment has been going on since 1950 in Tamil Nadu and this is the result.

Ref mineguruji #43

[I would want to know, who ushered in the socialist era, was they THE OBCs or the SC/ STs or rather he was the greatest of all the Brahmins- Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, who ushered in his brand of socialism- which forced India on the backfoot for five decades.]

He also included the 22.5% reservation for SC/ST in the Constitution. If he hadn`t, at least we wouldn`t have this level of backwardness in the country.

Let me give you just ONE example of why brain-dead people should not be given jobs just because of their caste.

In Chennai, at a busy traffic junction (Kathipara, for those who know Chennai), a lorry carrying sand was stopped by police who found out that its brakes were faulty. Instead of calling a tow-truck, the policeman asked the lorry driver to move the lorry away from the intersection. It promptly ran over an autorickshaw because its brakes would not hold and a couple in their sixties, who were using the autorickshaw to go shopping for wedding clothes for their daughter who was going to be married soon, were killed on the spot.

[Sir, who lead India and who is leading India, who ruled Bihar prior to LALU, and who were the rulers of UP, MP, Rajasthan.
All these states were lead by upper class leaders, who had only one interest in their mind and that was how to perpetuate themselves and their kith and kin.]

And i suppose Robbery Devi is no relation to Lallu Prasad Yadav and that their daughter Misa graduated at the top of the class in medical college in Patna because of sheer merit.

If you believe that, I have got a bridge to sell to you.

[This time there is slight aberration, however, the lower strata has become a little more aware and little more conscious and this is unplaltable to people like you.]

EVERYBODY in India belongs to a backward class. I once met a poor brahmin selling papads door to door in my hometown. His son was going blind (by this time, the loss of vision was irreparable and almost complete) because of one simple factor: lack of Vitamin A in the diet. Money if the only currency. Lack of money leads to all the ills of society. The second thing is lack of motivation. If despite having money the OBCs don`t want to study, limit their population, expand their horizon, etc., it is not the fault of the upper castes.

Abhishek

Many people here share your interests, and possess at least some knowledge of the underlying problems.

So a good way to proceed may be that people join hands with you by learning from you and you learning from them. That will very much facilitate the actual solving of our problems.

I would want to know, who ushered in the socialist era, was they THE OBCs or the SC/ STs or rather he was the greatest of all the Brahmins- Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, who ushered in his brand of socialism- which forced India on the backfoot for five decades.
Sir, who lead India and who is leading India, who ruled Bihar prior to LALU, and who were the rulers of UP, MP, Rajasthan.
All these states were lead by upper class leaders, who had only one interest in their mind and that was how to perpetuate themselves and their kith and kin.
When the powerful peope, were benefitting from socialism, everybody sang paeans in its support and when the same set of people are benefitting from privatization, they have changed the tune.
This time there is slight aberration, however, the lower strata has become a little more aware and little more conscious and this is unplaltable to people like you.
Its the truth, no offences meant.
Abhishek Behl

Hi Ali
The problem with Christianity and Islam and even Budhism in India is that even these religions have adopted casteism in their folds in one way or the other.
Even Sikhs have not been able to fend off this scourge of caste. The muslims when they came to India were more or less following the precepts of Islam, but their success in India and easy life had one falling.
Islam lost it pure character as it slowly became syncretized with Hinduism and same is the case with Christianity.
Look at Pakistan, One religion but so much sectarianism. The present day religions in India are akin to Hinduduism divided on caste and ethnic lines.

Abhishek Behl

Well said and you are right in this respect but i must say the poorest of the Brahmins was not debarred from taking the water from the well, he was not forced to wash his own plates, they were not given capital punishments and their women were not molested.
Despite being poor they had not to perform manual scavenging and so on and so forth.

Abhishek Behl

Hello all chowkies,

I am extremely happy that i have been able to ignite a discussion on this sensitive issue. The idea behind this endeavour is to let the people know the other side of the story.
The tales of the poor and the downtrodden, which are not sexy, glamorous and attractive to the mass media.
As far as the strong reactions expressed by few of the upper caste bretheren, ofcourse, i
understand their angst, they have been historically conditioned along the Pavlovian model to treat the backward classes and the sc/sts as scums of the earth.
Although the times are changing, but they remain the same, and unless and until the change happens in our heads and hearts, no doubt, nothing will change.

Abhishek Behl.

``I am jatt and many steps higher than brahmin of our village``

Dullaji

Growing up, in our village, almost all Brahmins I knew ranked very low on the community`s socio-economic totem pole. Most were lowly farmers with miniscule land holdings. Those who were in the traditional profession of panditai were basically beggars. Their women always wore the cheapest possible, and often tattered clothes. Their children never had sufficient to eat.

An ours was by no means an isolated case.

Re: # 32

````Yes it does upset me when people try to unfairly skew the discussion````

What`s an unfair point to you is fair to someone else. You cant control others voicing their view. However you control whether you get upset or not.

```` but thats not why I put up this post here. ````

Not the way I saw it. But if you say so, so be it.

````Anyway- we`ve had our say. So let us just leave it at that.````

Yup,

Thanks,

madani sirjee..99% indians DO NOT marry outside the biradari, and its true for sikhs too. the only difference is of a sikh marries a hindu, noone is prolly going to get hurt.

same cannot be said if a muslim marries a sikh or a hindu.

Re: # 31
Oye Tainu kistara patta ke enha nu raw-deal mildee hai.

Kanshi Ram tau puch le jaake.

Sadde Pind vich kabja kar ke baitahya ne, te assey kuch nahee kar sakde....

Re: # 33
I think you have tried well but your bearings are off-course, no disrespect here.

Facts about Sikhs and Punjab.

1) These days Sikhs do not marry Non-Sikhs, generally speaking. Examples you are quoting are exceptions rather norms(MMSingh`s daughter is a Love marriage) and so are others.


2) Jatt-Sikhs, 8/10 marry among Jatts, however if they are Amritdharis then there is no distinction. I am a product of such a mixed family.

3) Indian Punjab is still 70% Sikh and Jatts are about 2/3rd of that 70%.

4) Sikhs are predominantly derived from Hindus, that is why there was a bigger cultural bridge. For e.g. a classic example was of Dhillon caste, they were one of the first Sikhs during Guru`s time. Then some of them became Muslims, as the Nawab of the area intervened and favored one brother over another, and the favored one chose to become a Muslim. In the same village now there was a divide among all Dhillons, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim. They stopped inter-marrying and by the time partition happened, they had become enemies to the extent that one raped other`s woman as a trophy. This was narrated to me by an old man.

5) By far and large Islam is considered as an outsider`s religion in India. Sikhs connection to Islam mostly stems from the fact that Shekh Farid is part and parcel of Sikh daily worship. Sikhs are more aligned to Sufis than Wahabis.

6) Since Sikhs lost their rule in 1849, there have been major attempts at their faith. First one being made by AryaSamajis(Dayanand), who was more dangerous to Sikhism than Aurengzeb. Sikhs survived because of Singh Sabha wave and then British support of Sikh values in the Military.
Next onsalught happened in 1947 when, like my Mama loves to describe as:
Hindu ko Milla Hindustan
Muslim ko Milla Pakistan
Sikh ko Milla Thenga(Thumbs up)

7) Worst time for Sikhs politically was between 1980ies till late 1990ies. There was/is a big revival among Sikhs in India and West to evolve on the foot prints of its original principles and Sikhi.

8) Sikhs never were a majority anywhere, except in 1959 when Punjabi Suba was made.

9) Sikhs in India would probably not last for more than 30-40 years, unless God or Nature interferes seriously(it has happened in the past).

Thank you

Once Dalits have empowered themselves by embracing a monesthetic faith, would they force feed the brahmins like harimau and indian007 in a similar manner?

Two Dalits in Tiruchi district are made to eat each others excrement

On September 5, at Kaundampatti in Dindigul district, Sankan, a Dalit agricultural worker, was forced to drink urine — for having lodged with the police a complaint of trespass against a caste Hindu.

An equally horrifying incident occurred at Thinniyam village in Tiruchi district on May 22. Two Dalits, Murugesan and Ramasami, were forced ``to feed each other`` human excreta.

Re: # 28

I have some ideas about so want clarify if you can add light.

It is always stressed here in IRP your religion is more near to Islam than HINDU. But why they is not marriage relationships between Muslims and Sikhs? Or there is great gulf ?
It appears Sikhs marry hindus when I read delhi Chief governer Mrs. Dikshit is married to hindu, or former Air chief of India Krishnamurthy was married to Tamil, or present PMs daughter is married to hindu from Bihar and sure it happens both way. Is it event or nonevent just wonder. Or people are advanced enough socially to accept people choices nonchalantly.
Sikhs have no caste formaly then why huge section of punjab is considered backward. In fact when I was looking at vote of Indian punjab the backward people party almost got 20% vote for BSP. But they did not got to note elected ,but their vote is wide spread.
In that case in future bacward people party will( BSP )will be most deciding party in Punjab as soon numbers will be reflected in elected numbers. Are Jats more than 50% demographically? Or Punjabis , jaths will be able to come together from Congress and Akali to keep backwards not getting power in govt?
It appears there all over india there seems to be vertical and horizontal integration of people due to social interaction and marriages castes transgressing their traditional occupasions. Will and is that taking place in Punjab or will not take place.
Are most urban Sikhs in Punjab non jaths ?
Indian politics is caste calculus and demography. It gives strange outputs. Even small castes can have some say as they can be deciding factors who win or loss. That is good thing as even small caste people get chance to influence and no body can bulldose demographically. If I am correct it has advantage and disadvantage in caste calculus that even political parties can not nominate extreme caste people and disadavantage is parties find only common denominator who will not be probably too bright.
It appears of all business ``brahman business out`` so they have transgracsed in all businesses. It appear they are urban people more like jews.
As they are not out of major areas of cities is it difficult to find kind common enemy and that can lead to dissentiaon in great anti brahmin anti hindu alliance or will lead to fatriccide as movements need claet enemy to aim .
Will things change at fast rate as urbanization goes in progress about caste determinitic vote pattern ?
Jaths Hindu , sikh being farmers are poor lot all over India or rich landed gentries in Pakistan?
I think Manto or YLH army of antigandhi tank Panzer divisions is waiting with dry power hope Mr. Gandhi is not sited otherwise all is over.
Good night everybody.

Dear Avkrishna...

Thanks for your post. Yes it does upset me when people try to unfairly skew the discussion but thats not why I put up this post here.

Anyway- we`ve had our say. So let us just leave it at that.

Most SC/ST are still getting raw deal in terms of opportunities in life but I am not sure what is this fuss about OBC`s....almost everyone in India except Brahmins can be categorised as OBC in some part of India...I am jatt and many steps higher than brahmin of our village (I knwo it because I grew up with son of this brahmin in our village)...but when I went to New Delhi I felt like an OBC...I mean I was really backward.
Most OBC`s in e.g Punjab are doing much better economically selling clothes, tel, or shaving people`s faces off than most jatts now a days.....only oppression of OBC`s I can think of is social ridicule in certain situations when someone from supposedly higher caste will call them ``teli`` or gulligharh`` on face...but even that can be evenged right on spot by making a similar comment like jatt boot or jatt ghare da matt.

Because of reservations in the name of ``social justice`` and as a consequence of half-baked socialist experiments, India was reduced to 1 week`s foreign exchange in 1991 and pushed to the verge of banktrupcy.

In the last 15 years, the productive class (i.e. those who put their nose to the grindwheel and produce irrespective of caste, religion or creed) have brought back a modicum of respectability to India with ZERO help from a good-for-nothing government, except for removing the fetters that were imposed on them during the license raj days. The miracle today is that India is showing 8% plus growth today WITHOUT the massive investments that are required in transport, power, water development and the like that China has implemented.

Everyone knows that the education system run by the government (which should be bringing the SC/ST`s and OBCs upto the quality required to compete for IIT and IIM seats) is in a mess, a victim of the massive corrutption that flows through the political corridors like blood flows through the veins. People like Arjun Singh are too dishonest to acknowledge and fix this fundamental cog in the wheel of social justice and deliberately choose to divert the debate away from it through such retrogressive proposals as his last one.

And now the luddites of the socialist era are back in the form of Abishek Behl and Mantolives and are dusting off tired old arguments that would have made Goebbels proud. The intention is to steal the hard-work of responsible people for the creamy layer amongst themselves. If instead of erecting Ambedkar statues all around the countryside and garlanding them on his birthday, the SC/ST leaders lobbied the govt. for quality primary and secondary education for their people, perhaps they too would be able to compete for IIT/IIM seats.

Because of reservations in the name of ``social justice`` and as a consequence of half-baked socialist experiments, India was reduced to 1 week`s foreign exchange in 1991 and pushed to the verge of banktrupcy.

In the last 15 years, the productive class (i.e. those who put their nose to the grindwheel and produce irrespective of caste, religion or creed) have brought back a modicum of respectability to India with ZERO help from a good-for-nothing government, except for removing the fetters that were imposed on them during the license raj days. The miracle today is that India is showing 8% plus growth today WITHOUT the massive investments that are required in transport, power, water development and the like that China has implemented.

Everyone knows that the education system run by the government (which should be bringing the SC/ST`s and OBCs upto the quality required to compete for IIT and IIM seats) is in a mess, a victim of the massive corrutption that flows through the political corridors like blood flows through the veins. People like Arjun Singh are too dishonest to acknowledge and fix this fundamental cog in the wheel of social justice and deliberately choose to divert the debate away from it through such retrogressive proposals as his last one.

And now the luddites of the socialist era are back in the form of Abishek Behl and Mantolives and are dusting off tired old arguments that would have made Goebbels proud. The intention is to steal the hard-work of responsible people for the creamy layer amongst themselves. If instead of erecting Ambedkar statues all around the countryside and garlanding them on his birthday, the SC/ST leaders concentrated on ensuring quality education for their kids, perhaps they too would be able to compete for IIT/IIM seats.

Re: # 26

I wish Sikhs had reservation for IAS in nineties. I flunked in Mains...

LOL....

Re: # 24
Delhi .... 007 is being sarcastic. That is the way i m reading his posts.

peace.

Mr.Delhiwalla...I apologise. Sikhs are oppressed people also. I hereby extend my support to reservation for my Sikh brothers and their sisters as well.

Only recently, education has become a meal-ticket or ticket to wealth and influence. Not too far learning had little correlation to wealth in agrarian economy like that in india. the brahmins (and those who emulated brahmins like the panjabi khatris) who were traditional learners were not wealthy or influential in village economies before, suddenly were propelled into an upper crust. even 40 years back, my neighbor telis son found no enticement to study since he was much better off selling mungphalli tel than say getting a state bank of india job.

so, while brahmins no doubt got support from society to sudy in the past, its not as if most ot the society was rushing to study, and in traditional indian village the brahmin was not even allowed to till or own land (some obscure thing about plought and fields i forget) as a result was always dirt-poor.

Re: # 23
Indian Bhai,
I have seeing your gutar-putar on chowk for the last few weeks now.
For the record, I dont hate SC/ST OBC(or whatever else you have). I am myself a minorty in India and know what the oppression is about. My best friend used to be a Rajasthani Jatt who got into MAMC Delhi based on OBC criterion. Now is that fair?

Since when Jatts in India are oppressed?

Meanwhile, poor Gulab Devi or Shanta and Kanta and Savita are gang raped in Bihar by Yadavs and Thakurs.

So what is the point.
Point is ::

---

>

Poor people are still where they were and some educated SC/ST OBC took advantage of the situation to get Govt jobs.

This Reservation business is harming India than actually helping it.
G.O.I should help the poor people by making and implementing 5 year plans, as in Yojana program and actually let the SC/ST compete not just give them crutches.

Thank you!!

Delhiwala - for how long will you sikhs and brahmins continue to oppress and depress the poor disadvantaged people of India ? In interest of social justice I demand that you lot are kept away from schools and only given the jobs of janitors in offices , particularly those of you who are engineers and doctors.

Long live Social Justice !!! Long like Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar !! Long live VP Singh !!! Long live Lalu Prasad !!! Long live Mayawati !!

Re: # 17
> only hope for Dalits in India to escape the evil and pagan Hinju....
... and start worshipping paedophiles ....
No wonder, there was large scale apostasy in Arabia as soon as the horrible one died,
some 14 centuries ago.

:)

I completely agree with the writer. Further , I think the only people in India who are not oppressed or dehumanised are bloody upper caste brahmins. And they constitute 2-3% of the population. So I think reservation in colleges and jobs for the oppressed , disadvantaged and discriminated people of India , should be proportionate to their share in the population and should be immediately increased to 97.5% from the current 50%.

Dude you are so wrong about SC/STs.....maybe you are one of them yourself.....

My friends who got 65% in AISSCE in Delhi all became doctors and some are even IAS, I got 80% PCM and did not get any admission in PMT or REC in first list.
Why?
Is this fair?

I expressed my frustration in Delhi when Mandal Commission came in Delhi and we were promised that something would be done, but nothing happened.

There should not be any reservation period.

Sikhs have no Quota and yet they have high pertage in NDA, IMA and IAS and IPS howcome?

Dude you are so wrong about SC/STs.....maybe you are one of them yourself.....

My friends who got 65% in AISSCE in Delhi all became doctors and some are even IAS, I got 80% PCM and did not get any admission in PMT or REC in first list.
Why?
Is this fair?

I expressed my frustration in Delhi when Mandal Commission came in Delhi and we were promised that something would be done, but nothing happened.

There should not be any reservation period.

Sikhs have no Quota and yet they have high pertage in NDA, IMA and IAS and IPS howcome?

We can mark it.

Post 17 is when this board is lost for any sane discussions ;-)

Abhishek, welcome to chowk. I think the only hope for Dalits in India to escape the evil and pagan Hinju way of life is to convert to either Islam or Christianity

Life of a Dalit in India

Covered from head to toe in human excrement, a bare-chested man climbs from the sewer in the center of the crowded street. As people cringe at the stench, he walks through the streets looking for water to clean his body. This is a day in the life of a Dalit.

With arms crossed in front of her, a small girl walks barefoot around the skeleton-figured mutt. She then ambles over garbage, human waste and black-sodden ground as she approaches her home, unaware that life could be lived any other way. This is a day in the life of a Dalit.

Bare hands touch the corpse of the dead woman as pink petals surround the cloth encompassing her body. After the cadaver has been laid on the wood and the fire has been set, bystanders wait anxiously to pocket whatever trinkets are left behind. This is a day in the life of a Dalit.

Millions of Dalits live their lives surrounded by polluted water, excrement, dirt, blood, pollution and filth. Jobs allotted to Dalits include unclogging sewers, loading bricks in scorching heat, washing clothes near blood and human waste and working as meagerly paid field hands. And because of their lack of money and their low social status, Dalits do not have adequate access to food, housing, clothing, education or health care. This is the life of the Dalits.

Bonded labor is prevalent among Dalits. Children often work in slave-like conditions to pay off a family debt-that never gets paid. With estimates as high as 150 million working children, India has the largest child labor force in the world. Abuse is common, with long hours in miserable conditions and no hope of escape. This is the fate of the Dalits.

Abhishek,
Your premise in the entire artcile is baseless and does not stand on facts. You are right only in one aspect, i.e. the media is not made of qualified professionals. However to say that since they have their own interests at stake, they oppose reservation is out of touch. After decades of reservation for Sc/ST and OBC`s on the state level, they still control their interests well. The new reservation policy cannot threaten them.

Arjun Singh and co. are retards who wish to solve problems of caste oppression which exists primarily in villages, by providng quotas in IIT`s/IIM`s and private sector. Try to correlate a rural, illeterate oppressed villager with an opportunity in IIT or private sector and inform the chowkies of its benefits. These politicians in the congress live in a culture of corruption and bribery. Unfortunately, they extend their bribe giving habits by creating such reservation policies.

The best way to solve this problem in the villages or other areas is by keeping everyone illeterate and providing reservation at IIT`s.

By the way jats in rajasthan (who are primarily land owners) now come under OBC`s. I think soon Brahmins will have to fight to get reservations too.

Lastly, a lot of oppression in the past by upper castes cannot translate into a reservation for jobs. By that logic, all hindus, sikhs and jains oppressed by muslims also should get reservation in educational institutes and jobs.

Abhishek,

You have highlighted the right problem, but came to wrong conclusions:

I agree with you that Forward castes are dominant in various aspects of Private sector (About 95%+ of all Senior Management in Private enterprises are from Forwarad castes)
I wont be surprised to see similar reads among Journalists, Lawyers and other professions.


I disagree with you that the status of OBCs. Though they still face some discrimination from the forward castes in terms of promotions etc, they have a much better deal than SCs and STs. Some of OBC communities are wealthy and very powerful. So I wont be surprised if in some cases, the discrimination comes from them.


Coming back to the main issue,

The public sector, which was the main stay for generations of backward castes is on its way out. So the problem can only worsen.

In this ultra competitive world, left to it`s own, Private sector will not accomodate backward castes in an active manner. ( An intersting anecdote here. Azeem Premji, when he visited our institute was asked by our Socialogy professor whether we are paying a high social cost for IT. You should see his reply. He outrightly dismissed the question and said he doesn`t care about the social cost and that he only cares about the competition. And he CAN be abrupt)

Now how do we take care of Backward castes without endangering the competitiveness of Private enterprises? A very important and tricky issue indeed. Here I am generally against the quotas. Though the spirit of resevations is admirable, we all know it`s been abused over the past 50 years. So let`s try to do it differently. Let`s create an incentive based structure rather than a mandatory one. We should give tax breaks and preferential allotment of goverment contracts for firms which abide by some guidelines in reservations.



Thanks,
Avkrishna

Baeil (bull) ji,
As far as I know even Ambedkar wanted reservation for SC/ST ONLY. And not every freakin` community that said it had been discriminated against ! Also, this scheme was supposed to be there for 10 years only. So that communities that were weak could be brought upto speed.
And somehow I believe Ambedkar was a giant when compared to pygmies like Arjun Singh.

Anyways, going on about these points is useless. I have mentioned goebbels law on
another thread and it holds true for all times. You had your agenda and you did what you
could.

Sirji, we have achieved all the respect that we have today by investing into our temples of
learning. In these temples - there is NO bar on anyone from entering; as long as they have
the merit. To say that - forget merit, lets stop the brilliant scientist (who might some day
help find a cure for AIDS or who will help design the next generation of our satellites) because he is a (gasp!!) Brahmin - is bad.
It is so bad that in Hindi we have a word for it. CHUTIYAPANTI.

Not doing away with reservations means we are stooping to the same level as the H0m0
Islamus. Only difference is that they reserve most for themselves - and we try to
reserve most for non-meritorious folks.

The good thing is that this does not look like an easy agenda to push through, going by the
voices that are opposing it ... There is more good news - even people like Mayawati have
publicly stated that the new generations of upper castes is different. They give much less
damn about caste then merit.

As for the proposal to actually have reservations in private sector, I got some more good
news for you. Azim Premji has said that there will be NO reservation in WIPRO. These
are all important voices.

The only reservation that should be put in is one based on income. Have 15% reservation
for people with annual income less then 80000 INR. That is something that will ACTUALLY
benifit the needy. But No, nobody is going to support that. This is not going to get votes
for the politicians. No opportunity to divide further on caste/coulour/religion. No
incentive for Baeilji and company to claim how they stood for Dalits or OBCs etc etc...

By the way, Brahmins have not been privileged all the time. Even in the time of Lord
Krishna, there was the poor Sudama... Just keep that in mind.

Re: # 11

````I can fully understand that only that which corresponds to your wavelength is okay ... everything else is ridiculous..````

I know that you didn`t like my comments on DAD in the other thread, but that`s not an excuse for picking up a fight on this topic. I dont profess to be an expert in this topic, but even with the little expertise, I know that you are out of your element and here`s why.

My statement is about OBCs, not SCs and STs.

SC and STs already have 22.5% reservation in all levels of education and govt. jobs, both at central and state level.

However that`s not the case with OBCs. OBCs only have reservations at state level, not at centrail level. OBC lists vary a lot from state to state. There is no uniformly agreed list on the composition of OBCs and here`s a few examples:

Yadavs are backward castes both in terms of influence, wealth, power in AP, but extremely powerful in Bihar

Likewise the dominant caste in Karnataka is a backward caste in AP


Regarding Gandhi-Ambedkar issue, I have seen enough on this, esp. from you on this forum. I have neither time nor inclination to start it all over again.

Thanks,

Mantolives:

LOL..

it is hardly a monolith.. but the systematic oppression of Indian Scheduled Castes and Dalits shows how humanity continues to be downtrodden oppressed by divisions into ``Achoot`` ``Shudar`` and ``pavitar``...


Dude, I think you are stuck in the time of Jinnah. Much water has flown in the Ganges/ Cauvery and even Indus.. Get over it..

No one believes in the BS of ``achoot``/``shudr``/``pavitr``. Mayawati, a ``Dalit`` lady is the most powerful woman of Uttar Pradesh (largest state in India), and her competitor was Mulayam Singh yadav another `Shudra``..

Ofcourse, there is still discrimination in large parts. That would be taken care of in due course.. These reservations/affirmative actions are steps in that direction.. Thanks for your concern though..

It is meaningless to go on and on about Jinnah/ Gandhi etc.. Come out of the ``dream land`` and smell the ``Hasba`` bill in NWFP.. :-))

Avkrishna,

I can fully understand that only that which corresponds to your wavelength is okay ... everything else is ridiculous..

But I think we should commend the writer for speaking out... it just goes to show the deeply fractured and oppressive society created by Caste Hinduism- despite India having one of the most secular and liberal constitutions in the world. I don`t think Hinduism per se is to blame... it is hardly a monolith.. but the systematic oppression of Indian Scheduled Castes and Dalits shows how humanity continues to be downtrodden oppressed by divisions into ``Achoot`` ``Shudar`` and ``pavitar``...


The above examples are not exceptions but the norm. Perhaps, this is due to the fact that ninety-nine percent of the Indian media is controlled by the upper caste and class conscious intelligentsia.

Mr Behl ... only yesterday a gang of Indians was busy informing me here how the media and education in India was completely free and impartial... but thanks for making this very salient point.

Since we are on the issue of caste- lets go to the source of the problem- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi ... who in the words of Great Dr Ambedkar was the worst enemy of the untouchables... It was Gandhi who described caste as the great organisation of humanity... please don`t tell me how he used to clean his latrine to show that untouchables were alright... he believed and continued to believe that cleaning latrine was in large the vocation of only untouchables... He apparently relegated himself to their level.. because he wanted to justify oppression. He was working for class and his caste .. by becoming the latrine-cleaning Mahatma , he was telling the untouchables- look this is what life has handed you and this is what you ought to be and there is no shame in it... don`t look to advance in life because this pointless...

This is why Ambedkar hated Gandhi.


-YLH

And calling all OBCs as being oppressed in India is ridiculous. Many of OBC castes are extremely powerful in almost every domain in their respecitive states,

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Bad article, No coherent arguments.

Apart from having a philosophical disagreement to extend reservations to 80% of population (it is not reservation for backward classes anymore, it is reverse-discrimination on forward castes),

the practical application is impossible.

Communities which are considered OBCs in one state are not OBCs in other states.

How do we solve for this?

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Re: # 7

Harimau:

I proudly declare that I was born into a caste just ranked above the Dalits coming under the Most Backward Category.. Happy.. :-)). But I don`t believe in caste / religions. would like to be called a humanist..

Ref masanamuthu #5

[{The above examples are not exceptions but the norm. Perhaps, this is due to the fact that ninety-nine percent of the Indian media is controlled by the upper caste and class conscious intelligentsia. Most of the journalists writing and producing stories might have their own constraints and the interests of their own to take care of.}

Very true.. We need to come up with a standard so that everyone declares at the end of his/her article / opinion. I belong to this caste and this religion and I believe / don`t believe in it. We can form our own opinions based on that.. ]

At least, we would then have Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion stating his caste at the end of his daily columns in ``Murasoli``. We would then know what he means by his frequent statements that he comes from a ``very very backward caste``.

My driver thinks that Karunanidhi belongs to the caste of polluted people who blow the conch during funeral processions to warn people to keep away from the procession. Karunanidhi on the other hand has been slowly upgrading his caste and now calls himself a descendant of temple musicians (who are children of devadasis). This lends credence to my driver`s theory that Karunanidhi in fact is a funeral-conch-blower.

My driver of course has good reasons for feeling good about this. You see, he is a Naidu!

PS. I have earlier proudly declared myself on the pages of Chowk to be a Brahmin. So, Masanamuthu, what caste are you? Come on. `fess up!

PPS. Chowk should have 49.5% reservation for SC/ST/OBC/MBC interactors. Would the Chowk Editor take care of this burning issue?

PPS. Muslims should have no more than 5% reservation in terms of number of articles published on Chowk. (This is the percentage of reservations for Muslims in Andhra Pradesh that has been thrown out as unconctitutional by the Andhra High Court).

i must say that mr behl article is an eye opener the way mr vp singh was removed in the constitunioal or say democratic ``coup`` still haunts me as i belived that he was the first indian leader who was genuinly representing the masses.
but coming back to the article mr behl should have included more ``proofs`` showing the control of indian media by the upper castes i dont see indian express as the only culprit, the entire private sector electronic media is controlled by the upper castes this should have been high lighted so as to add weight to the argument.

saaduddin
karachi

The above examples are not exceptions but the norm. Perhaps, this is due to the fact that ninety-nine percent of the Indian media is controlled by the upper caste and class conscious intelligentsia. Most of the journalists writing and producing stories might have their own constraints and the interests of their own to take care of.


Very true.. We need to come up with a standard so that everyone declares at the end of his/her article / opinion. I belong to this caste and this religion and I believe / don`t believe in it. We can form our own opinions based on that..

Perhaps they forget that for four thousand years the Brahmins had simply reserved education for themselves, no one could learn Vedas, none could recite holy mantras, and no one could learn any skill which was not sanctioned by his caste. This was perpetuated with such conviction that even now the upper castes believe that India should revert to old system of Varnas, where they enjoyed all the power and pelf, no questions asked.

Looks like another commie/Subhash Gatade type rant. Do you know of Valmiki? Of Vishwamitra? Both were not Brahmins, yet were learned in the Vedas and are almost regarded as Gods by all Hindus, more so the Brahmins. So there.

Don`t mix them with regular folks. We don`t want to be polluted by your shadow. And the employers would know which IITs they don`t have to go to for campus interviews.


ROFL..

[Perhaps they forget that for four thousand years the Brahmins had simply reserved education for themselves, no one could learn Vedas, none could recite holy mantras, and no one could learn any skill which was not sanctioned by his caste. This was perpetuated with such conviction that even now the upper castes believe that India should revert to old system of Varnas, where they enjoyed all the power and pelf, no questions asked.]

Are you low-caste mufukkas trying to learn the Vedas and become priests at temples?

Do you think Murli Manohar Joshi introduced Sanskrit and the study of Vedic Mathematics at the IITs and IIMs?

What you want is for the Brain-Dead to freeload on top of the hard-working people of India.

If you want a total of 49.5% reservations (22.5% for SC/ST and 27% for OBCs), you should take half the IITs and make them the OBC-IITs. Don`t mix them with regular folks. We don`t want to be polluted by your shadow. And the employers would know which IITs they don`t have to go to for campus interviews.

well i dont think chowk is a forum.....i think its more of a website......well nice that u want your voice to be heard......i dont know about india........but in pakistanmedia has become alot more free then it was before......print media has been quite open for many decades ( just a few bruises when politicians and rulers try sacking editors and journalists and close down some publishing sites.....) .....it still leaked out alot more facts then the rulers would love....and now with the emergence of private channels( which have been in india for mor ethen a decade now) we can view alot of discussions and debates and alot of issues are discussed........and i hope the caste system is jolted by the end of this decade......