Celebrity Courts and Kangaroo Justice

#111 FarzanaVersey {``Salim, interesting that you say this. However, it is a post-Lagaan development. But the choice is almost always historical. And I do have problems with the fact that the Indian hero needs to be propped up by a kind angrez in all these films.``}

Farzana,
Yes, I have noticed that too. However, if you consider the real world, there has been a succession of ``kind angrezes`` in the evolution of Indian triumphs. Consider Lord Louis (as in Viceroy, ``but I will also be Governor-General!``); President John F. Kennedy (saving India from the big bad Chinese!); President Clinton (dancing with Rajasthani women without being impeached in the Lok Sabha!); and lately, President Bush (hugs and kisses for my man Manmohan, but a stern session of spanking Mushy in Islamabad!). Gora Sahibs have always found it their duty to patronize and advance ``little black Sambos`` in their attainment of civilized behavior, ``Christian`` names, and almost BBC English. :) Manoj Kumar, from the few old movies that I was made to watch (Karanti comes to mind) on 3rd grade video cassettes, had taken patriotism to a Muharram level.

I only BA pass.

Sane I think you are PHD or something. Not BA Pass.

Further to 111:

You might like to read Saima`s piece on Rang de Basanti....

re:#75 by ballukhan

I like what you write sir. Are u also from Amreeka? I only BA pass.
I not like this forum much. Lot of Pakastanis. I hear even editor Fasana?(same as this author Farzana?)a pakastani. Your name i think suggest you muslim but you write well and seem intelligent. So i think you Indian muslim.
My last post deleted by chowk editor because i criticise author of this artical. She write a stupid artical and she editor? not tolerate any bad comment. She have low I.Q. So i think she pakastani not indian.
I think Indian muslim more intelligent than Pakastani muslim.
I hear a doctor from London going to operate on Pramod Mahajan who shot by his own brother. This doctor is Indian muslim, world expert on liver transplant. India`s president also muslim, very learned man. Pakastani muslims mostly jehadis.

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Re: # 109:

[If I may disagree about Amir Khan a bit, I would like to state that Amir has developed a well-cultivated image of an Indian national hero. He selects his parts in movies (Mangal Pandey, Lagaan, and a few others) where he portrays the young angry fighter for Mother India. So, his campaign for the Narmada cause is not a departure from the norm. Your thoughts?]

Salim, interesting that you say this. However, it is a post-Lagaan development. But the choice is almost always historical. And I do have problems with the fact that the Indian hero needs to be propped up by a kind angrez in all these films.

Where he does play a contemporary national hero, the forces he is fighting against seem a bit wimpy. Rang de Basanti had to use a past reference of rebel heroes. And in `Sarfarosh` they used a horrendous caricature of a ghazal singer who is a Pakistani agent.

Re. his campaign being not a departure from the norm, I do not think the celluloid persona reflects the real one always, and Aamir is known to use `filmic` ideas as a marketing tool. This is what I had alluded to. It is to be seen how far he takes his involvement and how much credit he gets for his recent foray.

Don`t know how familiar you are with Hindi cinema, but Manoj Kumar always made these so-called patriotic films in which his character was named Bharat. Fortunately, in those days people may have got a bit teary-eyed, but they did not see it as stamp of nationalistic fervour. Today patriotism is chic.

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#98, FarzanaVersey {``Re: # 84:
1. Leave your filthy ideas and language to where they and you belong.
Now, learn to see the wood for the wood and the trees for the trees. But if you try and muck up the board anymore, it will not be tolerated. You are incapable of a dialogue, whereas my responses to others here and elsewhere prove that I am.``}

Farzana,
WOW! :) Now why can`t I learn to post responses in that manner?

Anyway, getting back to the topic. If I may disagree about Amir Khan a bit, I would like to state that Amir has developed a well-cultivated image of an Indian national hero. He selects his parts in movies (Mangal Pandey, Lagaan, and a few others) where he portrays the young angry fighter for Mother India. So, his campaign for the Narmada cause is not a departure from the norm. Your thoughts?

#102 by zeemax:

The Sidhu case is still being fought; it is sub-judice.

I do not think Salman`s career is finished; he has been given permission to travel abroad for his show.

I did agree with you that Indian bureaucrats havea deep-seated hatred of the wealthy; it does not mean they will not coddle up to them!

Suddenly, what Indians think of me has become important for someone who has no business to speak for Indians and who had very recently made quite an opposite comment:

``... salim chauhan , farzana versey and other hindoo rightwingers have only ONE agenda... HATE PAKISTAN and they are doing a good job...``

These are petty conspiracy theories, but one did not expect better...

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#101 by Zeena:

`Well-respected` are the people who are considered names here and who keep their distance. Certain interactors would dare not question them for that reason, whereas you are constantly in touch with them. Going by FP interacts you have not disrespected anyone, as per my knowledge. And no one has complained about you. So, do not take it as an insult, which it was not.

When I said `history of fights`, it could mean the other person doing the fighting as well.

I am explaining because you have been dragged into this only for interacting. I hope you will not pursue this discussion any further. Thanks.
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#103 by echoboom:

[P.S: Ferzana Versey/chief-editor--please keep the Chief-Editor personna of yours separate from the ``writer``.]

I do. Kindly scroll through my interacts with others. They are responding to me as a writer and I am replying in that capacity. And please do not get into the `they do not have the power to zap you`...they try very hard, and they end up deciding who should say what.

I expect EVERY writer to moderate their board and channelise it; I have said so on several boards.

Incidentally, I do not get personal as a matter of policy that I have followed ever since I have been on Chowk. But, if they abuse me or others in emails, they will get emails. Simple. If they want to make a designation into such an issue to get public attention, then they will be responded to on the rare occasion when I want to.

There are guidelines and there are constant reminders. It is not possible to keep tabs on every article, especially if the writers themselves decide to get into the fray. These writers have been informed publicly as well as privately to steer the discussion.

PS: By that token your post should also be removed. In fact, all irrelevant posts might be.

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#100 by khamkhwa

Look. The way I see it, Farzana is only trying to preserve the essential character and essence of chowk as a much valued forum for serious discussion amongst grown-ups, indeed as it was originally intended, and not to let it slide into being just another chat board the likes of which there are plenty on, say, IRC. That will be, God forbid, chowk`s demise.

Plenty is permitted by editorial policy; a few jibes, a few pokes, some naughty pin-pricks even in awkward places; as long as it is all in good humour. When interactors seriously begin to have fun at other interactors` expense to the point that people`s very dignity is jeopardised, that has recently been the cause for editorial action. I myself have been booted for doing this, and I admit in all humility, I deserved it. I hereby apologise to saminasha for the scrap on FMG board.

I think interactors should display more empathy with the editor`s responsibilities in this very sensitive, demanding both on personal time and energy, as well as completely voluntary, undertaking. Once that is done, I`m sure the censorship policy will be suitably adjusted to conform.

Sorry for typo, I meant your post # 95. Thanks

They say that the game of football was not yet introduced to the Khalsa College. A coach, Master Gurbachan Singh was shangaied from the Deli college and given the challenge to turn out a team of players within 2 months. The rival college, from across the town was taunting & teasing the Khalsa College & it had become unbearable.

On the first day when the rules & tactics were explained , zapped out of the annals of this sport, Master Gurbachan singh had this final advice to the nervous Khalsa team:

`` Kicj hard; now that is the key to this game. Play rough--and if the ball seems like a blurr, than kick whatever is there in front--even the head of the rival player--am I clear , do you all understand``?

Cheers went out in unison: we do we do

So Master Gurbachan said: `` O.K now the last practice game should start--where is the football``?

and the khalsa team shouted: Forget the ball, start the game.

master Gurbachan Singh believed in nothing but winning. He had hyped & charged his team, but what happened that on the match-day against the other team, the khalsa team could not score a single goal; but then the other team was able to score only one goal.

The match was in its final minutes & the Master was running with the ball but always
outside the boundary--when suddenly he couldn`t resist & when the ball came so near to him & close to the post Master Gurbachan Singh with ear piercing ``Vahgroo ji...`` kicked the ball into the nearest post....his own!

---

Someone also narrated to me the a nikah-ceremony in which the Qazee himself had brought the sehraa, all prepared, that if the groom backed out--he himself would marry the girl. Such contingecy really paid off for him

P.S: Ferzana Versey/chief-editor--please keep the Chief-Editor personna of yours separate from the ``writer``.

You have every right to zap, ban, filter or whatever but please on your article page do not jump into the fray from outside the boundary line. The rival ones, no matter how obnoxious, do not have to power to zap you, as an iteractor/writer--so this becomes an uneven playing field.

Why not , if you do not want to go for the kill, just discuss this via their e-mails: one to one...and perhaps this should be done with all the posts, which in your judgement, are irrelevant to the discussion about the article.

#97 by FarzanaVersey

...Puru, the late actor Raaj Kumar`s son ran his car over six people and he was let off on a bail of Rs. 500)...

Hmmm...If I recall correctly, Navjot Singh Sidhu had several years ago run over someone (was it a traffic cop?) deliberately in road rage and killed him. I don`t know what became of that case but he seems to be doing fine, while the entire career of Salman Khan seems to be over. Someone is obviously trying to make an obscene point here.

I am afraid, it is true...I assume this goes for most of the subcontinent...

Interestingly, it is quite the opposite in Pakistan. The beurocracy tries to coddle up to the wealthy for money and favours; and at most, starts being uncooperative if they refuse to comply. But harassment/vindictiveness of the sort meted out with a vengeance on Salman Khan is unheard of other than towards political foes at the Government`s behest.

I have met some senior Indian beurocrats, and to tell you the truth, I found them to be a strange mix of haughtiness, intransigence, and contempt.

Dear Farzana Versey

As a respectful and respectable member of chowk , May I humbly request you not to delete this post . B/c I am hurt by your remarks in your post # 89.

Please, look at your response here,{{{You would not dare to say this to some of the other few interactors who have openly supported me, my writing and my new role only because a){{they are too well-respected here;}} b){{they do not have a history of fights with you elsewhere.}}

1:-So, I am not a well-respected person here on chowk? explain

What did I do to disrespect you or anyone else ? explain
I am rather disappointed on this remark of your`s. B/c I never disrespect anyone on chowk.

#2:- I do not fight with saminashah , she is the one who always provoke others in this mud slinging.

Thank you

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Forget about deserving a response from you, I do not care. You are trying to be far too smart....when you have nothing to say you suddenly remember a post and twist it to fit into your little Red Riding Hood act.

[I find it extraordinary that professional editors call critical readership ``filth`` and ``that they should go back to where they belong``, for disagreeing with them.]

WRONG...and here is the evidence.

#84 by Saminasha
Re: # 83

Editor in Chief,

Kindly remind your lapdogs Zeena and Chuhan to ``stick to the subject``.

In response to that:

#85 by FarzanaVersey

Re: # 84:
1. Leave your filthy ideas and language to where they and you belong.

Now, learn to see the wood for the wood and the trees for the trees. But if you try and muck up the board anymore, it will not be tolerated. You are incapable of a dialogue, whereas my responses to others here and elsewhere prove that I am.

#93 by zeemax:

[Yes it does seem that the Indian justice sytem has been unusually harsh on Salman Khan. I don`t see any Hindu/Muslim thing here since they did the same to Sanjay Dutt. I think setting an `example` of celebrity `guinea pigs` from time to time is the correct analysis of the mindset to claim the fairness of the system, whether it actually is or not.]

I would not support Salman for murder (an accident does not qualify and has different standards. Puru, the late actor Raaj Kumar`s son ran his car over six people and he was let off on a bail of Rs. 500); but in this particular case I think the idea of guinea pig is being given a new twist, because the `heroes` are poor tribals.

Tiger Watch, an NGO, has made a film where it has got the version from the poachers for the killing of 25 tigers (on last count there were 26) in the Ranthamboe National Park.

Who are these poachers? Not the rich and famous. They belong to the Mogya nomadic tribe; they have been classified by the police as criminals, although they are in charge of driving away crop-destroying animals.

Does this become a topic of discussion? No.

[I also think the Indian beurocracy has a latent and deep seated hatred of the wealthy and priviliged. I sensed it many times while there. Is that correct or am I imagining things?]

I am afraid, it is true and it applies to most government servants even at the lowest level of the hierarchy.e.g. at airports, if you try to send a speed-post, the man will look you up and try and place you; at an empty counter I had to wait for ten minutes for the man to accept my letter and then another 10 minutes to weigh it, stamp it and give me a receipt.

Peons at government offices treat you like scum and are extremely rude; even if a bribe is expected, it is seen as a right.

An acquaintance who had moved to India to set up a factory (he was among the richest Indians) finally gave up after a few years due to the high-handedness of the bureaucracy.

I assume this goes for most of the subcontinent.

Miss Versey,

I find it extraordinary that professional editors call critical readership ``filth`` and ``that they should go back to where they belong``, for disagreeing with them. It is so extraordinary to me, that in my opinion, you dont deserve a response until an apology is in the offing.

Re: # 86:

[1. My usage of ``lapdog`` was not meant in a derogatory manner; it is an American phrase that denotes slavish devotion. Nothing more. I have never referred to you in a sexually derogatory manner, nor will I ever have to. I am actually offended that you would think that I would stoop to such a level.]

I find it interesting that while the tone of the post here is tempered, this `lapdog` business is being milked for all it is supposedly worth elsewhere.

I happen to know what the word means and connotes, having used it several times in my articles. Even if one were to accept that there were no sexual overtones (which I anyway did not imagine), it is still an extremely childish way of interacting. This is not the first time such an `accusation` has been made. This has been a constant, not surprisingly after I became editor.

For someone who has written over a 100 pieces here and been at the receiving end of the vilest abuse -- without provocation -- I know better than to need or invite slavish devotion. You would not dare to say this to some of the other few interactors who have openly supported me, my writing and my new role only because a)they are too well-respected here; b)they do not have a history of fights with you elsewhere.

[2. Out of respect to you and your board, I have tried to keep my comments limited to the construction of this featured piece. I have purposefully refused to engage with Zeena, Arjun and Chuhan for those reasons.]

No. You have 17 posts thus far; in eight you have engaged with these individuals; three replies could qualify as being on the subject. The rest have been irrelevant or the current arguments.

[4. Of course I am not the moderator of this board...but I am not your whipping girl either. So why am I always singled out for your focus is extraordinary.]

I know some people would call others whiners for saying something similar. You are ignored most of the time; this time round you have been singled out because you took it upon yourself to silence those who were saying something that was not even abusive towards you. You are the one who tends to behave in this unbecoming fashion on every board.

[5. I could only respond to the construction of the piece. To me, that was where I could offer constructive feedback that hadn`t been covered before. The content of this piece has some potential.]

The first one was #12: ````Very negatively written piece- the tone and language (i.e. crap, etc) does little to improve the thesis.`` The next one on the subject was # 59. These were two of the `constructive criticism` posts; of which one was to inform that since another interactor had dealt with content, there is no point repeating it.

All the posts here were to do with such repetitions and mostly unflattering; they were not wiped clean.

[6. Zeena and Chuhan agree with you no matter what you write. If their opinions are more useful and instructive to you than mine, by all means, I will abstain from visiting your boards.]

I would appreciate it if you used the names/nics people use on Chowk in your FP interacts and not the twisted versions you have for one another elsewhere; this applies to everyone.

If indeed they do agree with me, then why do you have a problem with that? Don’t you have your favourites? Don’t I have mine? Every opinion that deals with the subject is important enough for some reason or the other. I find it extremely juvenile that there has got to be an either/or. I do not have a choice as to who responds and I do not want that choice. As always, I do not reply to posts that are abusive or unnecessarily baiting. And I do not rubbish people only due to their not-so-savvy manner of expression.

Furthermore, wrt appreciation/agreement, do you become Arundhati Roy’s lapdog? Would I call # 92 your lapdog for what he has said (ah, and there was a time you had even accused him of being my `friend`, only because he got published on FP!)? There are some typical desi males here who like to play this woman vs. woman game.

I don’t find this amusing or elevating in any way. Unlike you who have earlier responded to threads titled `catfight`, I treat this sort of voyeurism with the disdain it deserves.

This is my last post on this argument.

Best wishes...
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Zeena:

I retained one of your posts on the subject because, as you reminded me, I gave someone else (and myself) that opportunity. That post should be clear enough; it is pointless repeating.
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I understand that the last leg of the discussion has completely gone against Chowk guidelines and accept my part in it, but the only reason was that I had to finally confront the matter head-on.

Should anyone find this a misuse of privilege, do let me know. The posts (including mine) will be removed.

#89 by Zeena

Zeena Bhabi .. yaar you complain too much. I`m sorry but I have to say this. So what if saminasha is acerbic from time to time? That is her, and we can respect that. She`s a fellow chowkie and we all have our little quirks, don`t we?

Thanks

FV,

The celebrity as prey ... The problem is the high moral ground being adopted. It will set an example,” they say. Are guinea pigs the solution? If the System has the nerve, then it ought to flex its muscles on a regular basis.

Yes it does seem that the Indian justice sytem has been unusually harsh on Salman Khan. I don`t see any Hindu/Muslim thing here since they did the same to Sanjay Dutt. I think setting an `example` of celebrity `guinea pigs` from time to time is the correct analysis of the mindset to claim the fairness of the system, whether it actually is or not.

I also think the Indian beurocracy has a latent and deep seated hatred of the wealthy and priviliged. I sensed it many times while there. Is that correct or am I imagining things?

P.S. I really regret the squabble on this board. FV wrote a perfectly fine and honest piece worthy of meaningful discussion. Why did saminasha derail it? When someone says ``Tread carefully, for they have left the ground slippery…``, why do images of someone urinating on the floor appear as the first thought? Perhaps saminasha should be invited back to explain.

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Dear Chief Editor

With all due respect, I have been very relevant and disciplined interactor on front page. This interactor, Saminasha is abusing me by personally attacking me with abusive and lowlying street slangs and trying her best to destroy this thread and all the front page threads . I apologize for being tangential here . But, some shameless interactors need some dose to make them realise who they are and what their slangs depict.

Please, I request you not to delete this thread. As you have not deleted Saminasha`s abusive threads towards me, where she clearly personally attacked me .

Saminasha

Show me one IRRELEVANT post by me on front page`s any article , if you do . I PROMISE you I will quit CHOWK with shame and leave the battle field for you to fight your battles.I am serious................................

If you will fail to show me any irrelevant post , then you owe me an APOLOGY for 2 things.
1:- For calling me lapdog( which is a lowlying street slang to humiliate anyone to hurt their feelings).........
2:- For Not speaking the truth that I post irrelevant posts on front page.

Yes, I do admit this post is irrelevant but, I already apologize to FV for posting this irrelevant post.

{{{{{#84 by Saminasha on April 21, 2006 12:54pm PT
Re: # 83

Editor in Chief,

Kindly remind your lapdogs Zeena and Chuhan to ``stick to the subject``. The discussion of feminism as a whole is not relevant to the weak analogy comparing media outlets to ``nautch girls``. Also, as moderator of the board, please note that I have SEVERAL times reminded interactors like arjun, dilli and zeena to take their tangents elsewhere. Why you have chosen to ignore this and try to scold me is apparent to all. }}}

Saminasha

1:-Kindly refrain from using lowlying street slangs on front page. I will not disrespect this thread, front page and chief editor , no matter what your twisted mind tries to twist this thread in to. B/c my brought up is absolutely different than your`s. These street slangs depict your personality and this is more transparency where you come from.
If you love to be lapdog or lap (whatever) of anyone be my guest. Actually, street slangs like this suit your shameless personality more than anyone else. So, keep them for you , exclusively.

2:- Prove it right now, where did I use irrelevant post on any thread on front page?
You are lying with NO reason, no logic...............I am being gentle with you and you are taking advantage of my politeness. Which of my post was IRRELEVANT?

3:- Kindly, do not put me in the same line as Salim, Dilli or arjun. I am a different person. I don`t fight my battles on someone else`s backs.

4:- Your jealousy for not being editor in chief is getting out of control.....please, control that.It will kill you.

Thank you

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Main Entry: lap·dog
Pronunciation: -``dog
Function: noun
1 : a small dog that may be held in the lap
2 : a servile dependent or follower

-Merriam Online Dictionary

Re: # 85

Editor in Chief,

1. My usage of ``lapdog`` was not meant in a derogatory manner; it is an American phrase that denotes slavish devotion. Nothing more. I have never referred to you in a sexually derogatory manner, nor will I ever have to. I am actually offended that you would think that I would stoop to such a level.

2. Out of respect to you and your board, I have tried to keep my comments limited to the construction of this featured piece. I have purposefully refused to engage with Zeena, Arjun and Chuhan for those reasons.

4. Of course I am not the moderator of this board...but I am not your whipping girl either. So why I am always singled out for your focus is extraordinary.

5. I could only respond to the construction of the piece. To me, that was where I could offer constructive feedback that hadnt been covered before. The content of this piece has some potential.

6. Zeena and Chuhan agree with you no matter what you write. If their opinions are more useful and instructive to you than mine, by all means, I will abstain from visiting your boards.

Re: # 84:

1. Leave your filthy ideas and language to where they and you belong.
2. You started the nautch girl analogy discussion; you wer not stopped.
3. Re. the weak analogy, if you have an opinion do submit it as an article in the online form, i.e. if you have an opinion and not just a reaction. And of course If you have the time!
4. You are NOT the moderator of this or any board.
5. You asking others to take tangential topics elsewhere is precious irony, since you have left no board untouched by your puerile attempts. On this board itself your first post was a one-liner and you left content to others...
6. What is apparent to all except you is that it is possible to have differing points of view and there is no need to get into a tizzy over the few times someone does agree with me.
7. There has been no abuse by these posters on this board.

Re: # 83

Editor in Chief,

Kindly remind your lapdogs Zeena and Chuhan to ``stick to the subject``. The discussion of feminism as a whole is not relevant to the weak analogy comparing media outlets to ``nautch girls``. Also, as moderator of the board, please note that I have SEVERAL times reminded interactors like arjun, dilli and zeena to take their tangents elsewhere. Why you have chosen to ignore this and try to scold me is apparent to all.

Re: # 79:

I did not accuse you of going off at a tangent...we were discussing the nature of truth wrt the article. When I talked about marrying morality to it, there was already a reference about high moral ground in one case I mentioned.
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#80 by Saminasha:

Just to remind you that as the writer of the piece and the moderator here, should anyone wish to make comments about feminism (which you started, incidentally), then they are free to do so. You cannot decide that. You may point it out if they are abusive.

Re. what you send to feedback about something on UP, once you have done so there is no need to bring it up here and draw attention. Feedback forum is good enough for that. Do not try and disrupt boards. Stick to the subject.

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Wow! Lots of fem mud-wrestling here .. better get out fast!!!

Re: # 74

Arjun SAHIB,

1. I am not here to waste my time educating you on logical fallacies. If you have the spine, post your claims (examples of capitalism being THE ONLY WAY!!!!!!) ON UP and MAYBE I will respond IF I have the time.

Zeena and Chuhan,

Please flail drooling at someone else with your tangential comments re: feminism. Also, Editor in Chief, please note that I have submitted in the feedback forum the thread in which chuhan has referred to an interactor as a ``urinal`` by name.

# 77
FV

Here is what I stated in my post # 71{{{{If, they have suspicion then they obviously lack truth. Truth is the actual fabric(matrix) based on the strands of facts, and facts are supported by evidence. With out evidence facts become suspicious and lack validity to be truthful.

In some cases , they intentionally hide the evidence to convert truth in to doubt. When they become successful in creating doubt , they get the BENEFIT OF DOUBT. Unfortunatley 1:-criminal justice has it`s flaw, it needs evidence of proof to validate the truth. And, those who are rich , powerful, resourceful are the most beneficial of the BENEFIT OF DOUBT.

Poors, weak are the ones who become preys and BENEFIT OF DOUBT becomes predator, even if they have the TRUTH. This is the sad reality.

This is so obvious in the cases that you mentioned in your article.}}}

FV

#1:-My points were very much related to your article. I never had any intentions to be[[going off tangent}}.......

#2:-{[If we marry it with morality}}...Where did this come from? I did not mention any moral grounds in my post to prove the truth for poor people in third world countries , where they are preys of criminal injustice.............I just gave facts about some flaws in criminal justice in these countries BASED ON YOUR ARTICLE AT HAND..........................One of the biggest fact is BENEFIT OF DOUBT, which is the most favourite for rich and powerful against poors and weak , merely a fact again based on your article.......................

#3:- My opinion is,{{You only tell the truth when you remember everything}}.......related to this article if, poors and weak will kneel down in front of criminal injustice with out remembering their tortures and sufferings with extreme fear of speaking truth and getting more punishment that will provoke more criminal injustice and more chaos in the so, called democratic society and Govt. Someone has to speak the truth to save their future generations from the cruel claws of criminal injustice.

And, they will only speak the truth, if they will REMEMBER their sufferings , their tortures . If they remember their rights as equal humans, not any inferior than those in power which are the main cause of this social and criminal injustice...............

#4:- My opinion is those poor and oppressed people should not forget their sufferings , if they will forget they will never be able to stop this vicious circle of social and criminal injustice........again related to your article.

#5:- Yes, they need to know everything to have self awareness. If they will not have self awareness , how will they be able to stand up for their rights? If they will be in darkness they will always play the role of passive beings who surrender their basic rights for the happiness of their crusaders..................

PS:- I personally loved your quotes. If we see them other than this article.

take care

#77 Farzana Versey {``Since this is not the subject here, I would love to see an article on why a reference to nautch girls as a metaphor is anti-feminist.
This is one way to seriously discuss the subject; perhaps the only sensible way. For that you need to be able to develop an opinion on the subject and not just a reaction to a comment.``}

Farzana,
I think that we are in agreement on your use of the ``nautch girl`` simile. As far as serious discussion on the subject, I have always supported this art form and protected those who practiced it. There is too much bickering, rigidity, and violence in this world and we need something better to make it go round and round.

#67 by Zeena:

The concept and practice of truth is an interesting idea, especially if we marry it with morality -- real or false. Several philosophical ideas can be discussed, but we would be going off-tangent.

Here are a couple of quotes...

``If you tell the truth, you don`t have to remember anything.``

``Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.``
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#72 by Salim_Chauhan:

And then, would we be able to use terms like `prostituting talent`...and heave-ho...may we dare to suffer from `impotent rage`?

In post # 60, I had stated, ``Feminism is not the fiefdom of one kind of thought dictators. Nautch girls have existed and sought patronage; these patrons decided on the fate of art and culture during their time. I agree it was before our time, but learning a bit from history does not hurt.``
- - -
Since this is not the subject here, I would love to see an article on why a reference to nautch girls as a metaphor is anti-feminist.

This is one way to seriously discuss the subject; perhaps the only sensible way. For that you need to be able to develop an opinion on the subject and not just a reaction to a comment.

Re: # 75:

[further I could not see any reason why Salman Khan the hunter be considered as a poor `prey`]

Quoes from my article...

``I have used the word ‘prey’ studiedly to draw attention to the flipside.``

``Are guinea pigs the solution? If the System has the nerve, then it ought to flex its muscles on a regular basis.``

``At the Ranthambore Tiger Reserve, where I met the then director Fatehsingh Rathore, there was a move to create a boundary wall and renovate fences to protect the Park from villagers illegally grazing their cattle, destroying the habitat and poaching.``

``The problem is environmentalists target the group they know they can make the most of. Even though less that half the available land is put to use – the rest being wasteland – the rural areas are spared the spiel.``

``How many poor tribals/commoners are even aware of the concept of justice, leave alone fighting for it?``

[the track record of bollywood in addressing such serious public issues may be poor but if someone tried to make amends to that then we need not shout him down.......OTOH I would like to see every Amir Khan, Hritik Roshans or Salman Khan using their public visibility to bring more such issues to the lime light and fore front of public discussion.............. ]

Asking questions is not shutting anyone down. I wonder how many people are going to be discussing this subject, not as drawing room chatter, but on an ongoing basis. Will such discussion lead to action? Woudl this eman that the `real` workers like Medha will be sidelined and a celeb get away with all the credit?

I have given a detailed reply already. No point in repeating it.

PS: You have juxtaposed the `they` of the secodn segment, which dealt with several tangential issues with the Salman case, which is not the same `they`.

Best wishes....

```They’ are not interested. ``

My point is that if some celebrity from bollywood now shows an interest NBA or any other issue we need not assume a mens -rea................... the track record of bollywood in addressing such serious public issues may be poor but if someone tried to make amends to that then we need not shout him down.......OTOH I would like to see every Amir Khan, Hritik Roshans or Salman Khan using their public visibility to bring more such issues to the lime light and fore front of public discussion..............

further I could not see any reason why Salman Khan the hunter be considered as a poor `prey`....... if some court wants to give an exemplery punishment for a law which already provides for stringent punishment then you cannot charge the justice system of working under some sort of communal duress from the bishnoi community............if you think that 5 years for killing of a black deer is not alright not then please change the law............and if Salman did not know that then, as they say, ignorance is no excuse........

#69 by Saminasha on April 19, 2006 3:25pm PT


Please look up the definitions of circular reasoning


This isn`t your classroom where you can hand out homework assignments...

YOU claimed it was circular reasoning..by any standard of intelligent debate, it`s incumbent upon you to prove my post was circular reasoning.

All in all,

I am glad to see that immature, arrogant ba$tard Salman Khan finally going to Jail. Hope nothing else changes in the last minute,

Thanks,
Avkrishna

Farzana Versey {``News channels are behaving like nautch girls.``}

Much is being made about the author`s use of the word ``nautch girls.`` To me it means that the news channels are catering to the most generous or obliging patrons/topics. In other words, whatever is the rage today; those who pander the most to that rage will get the most coverage. The author is using this phrase much like one would refer to a ``weather cock`` to imply behavior in relation to wind direction. Nothing in the use of this simile justifies concern for a feminist issue. I think that the detractor in this case is demonstrating that she is stuck in left field long after the game is over.

#70
Saminasha sahiba

Let me remind you the fact that this article is not about me and my vocabulary. This article is about criminal injustice. I don`t have anything to get even with you for your battle grounds.

Be my guest if you wish to discuss the topic at hand.

Press is absolutely not being compared with nautch girls the way you are trying to convolute the facts to make it look like they are being manipulated in this article.


Well, the fact is you are trying to manipulate them for your own insecurities. Nautch girls are always patronized by some cults, they don`t work independently or willingly most of the times, they are like( KHUTPUTLLIES) means PUPPETS, their strands are in someone else`s hands. Unfortuantely they don`t earn any credit for their hard work, their hard work doesn`t pay them , the cult at their back get paid.

Same way some news channels work for some powerful and resourceful cults (as their patrons)and play as their puppets on their tunes.

No, dear
your approach is not right . Well , what can I say? We see negative or positive depending on our mind`s approach. You are entitled to your opinion, so, am I
Peace.

PS:-I learnt all these terms in Pakistan , while you`re just learning on chowk.com. Even living in USA didn`t improve your vocabulary. You should be thankful to chowk. Cut and paste does`t help , try originality. Focus on your weak points, You are the best @ cut and paste. As a teacher don`t you know the most important rule of learning, always focus on your weak points.

Re: # 67

Zeena,

If the press is being compared unfavorably with nautch girls, then you can be rest assured that the nautch girls are not being represented positively. And don`t lecture me on MY feminism Zeena Malka e Azam when you could barely spell the word a few months ago....

Arjun and Zeena,

Please look up the definitions of circular reasoning and false analogy with your examples and post them on up.

Re: # 60
You people are writing so proper Angrezi, I am feeling insecure now.
Do you use some kind of Editor and then cut/paste?
that defeats the purpose Chat-site.

#58 FV

If, they have suspicion then they obviously lack truth. Truth is the actual fabric(matrix) based on the strands of facts, and facts are supported by evidence. With out evidence facts become suspicious and lack validity to be truthful.

In some cases , they intentionally hide the evidence to convert truth in to doubt. When they become successful in creating doubt , they get the BENEFIT OF DOUBT. Unfortunatley criminal justice has it`s flaw, it needs evidence of proof to validate the truth. And, those who are rich , powerful, resourceful are the most beneficial of the BENEFIT OF DOUBT.

Poors, weak are the ones who become preys and BENEFIT OF DOUBT becomes predator, even if they have the TRUTH. This is the sad reality.

This is so obvious in the cases that you mentioned in your article.

#59 Saminasha sahiba

With all due respect, why all your discussions revolve around same notion of feminism? This article has got nothing to do with feminism or unfeminism. Nautch girls are not being degraded here in this article. In my opinion if writer has merely mentioned them in a different context that doesn`t mean they are being insulted. Thank you

#64 by Saminasha on April 19, 2006 1:10pm PT

I`m still waiting for you to tell me, in simple terms, why what I said was circular reasoning..A is used to prove B, B used to prove C, C used to prove A..shouldn`t be too hard given your education, right?

Re: # 64

red herring.

Re: # 63

Arjun,

Once you are capable of distinguishing between an unproven or false claim (capitalism ALWAYS works!!!!) and a legitimate claim (capitalism`s success is the product of several factors), THEN we can talk about circular reasoning....

and that`s a D for you....

#59 by Saminasha on April 19, 2006 11:49am PT


I hope this post is suitably relevant to this board.


Nope...It feels like you`re grading a book report..I can almost see the C- at the end with the obligatory wag of the finger..


extended mixed metaphors, confusing personification, unsuccessful analogies


Hmm..we`re supposed to be impressed when we already know you don`t know what circular reasoning is?

Re: # 60

Ballukhan covered content well enough...why should I repeat what has already been said? My purpose in pointing out the faulty figurative language is not to nitpick but to show the correllation between the weak construction these devices and the unfocused content. If we were in a workshop, you`d have to thank me for this feedback.

Re: # 50 by arjun_m


``I guess America is Stalinist too then..

What? you`ve never heard of eminent domain?``

Interesting that you mention eminent domain. You must be aware of the debate on it sparked off by O`Connor`s ruling. Since, this subject is tangential to what is being discussed here, let me simply state my point of view: YES, EMINENT DOMAIN IS STALINISTIC. If you are aware of the debate then you will know exactly where I am comming from.

Re: # 58:

Interesting points, Zeena, given the fact that this is precisely what I conveyed to an interactor here about Aamir Khan -- he should either be for or against, and not try to play a balancing game.

My truth is absolute -- for me. But for someone else, their `suspicion` becomes their truth.

Both they and I are opining on a fact.

What is the truth of that fact?

Unfortunately, these days even facts are doctored, and negotiable.
- - -
Re: # 59:

Yup. Relevant enough, although the content and not the construction ought to be the concern here. But then you may be ignorant of the content...

Yet...
* The person you are agreeing with has not used those words. Highly unprofessional to ride on others` backs.
* Puerile nitpicking considering that mixed metaphors (if they are so) are a valid literary device, though this article is not aiming to be literary; it is a device to state something happening in my country.
* Feminism is not the fiefdom of one kind of thought dictators. Nautch girls have existed and sought patronage; these patrons decided on the fate of art and culture during their time. I agree it was before our time, but learning a bit from history does not hurt.
* You don`t know about social butterflies? Good for you. They aren`t terribly rivetting.
- - -
It is a known fact from the time I started writing on Chowk, I do not respond to every post individually. I club them together since the content often overlaps. This is to make people who are new to Chowk also aware of this fact. And, yes, I do not bite baits.

Dear Editor in Chief,

Wrt your piece; I agree with Ballukhan in his reading of this piece as being scattershot rage and illogical construction. One consistant example of this can be found in the extended mixed metaphors, confusing personification, unsuccessful analogies :


1. `` It has become a gallery of vogue. Tread carefully, for they have left the ground slippery…`` (what does this mean? have the celebrities urinated on the floor? why?)

2. ``...News channels are behaving like nautch girls. They have the same favourite patrons. The nawabs of vigilance. They speak on behalf of us....`` (strange personification of news channels as women who dance to survive. I was under the impression that professional journalists were entrusted to be vigilant on the behalf of citizens. If they tend to support the viewpoint of the subject or personality they are covering, surely the citizen is intelligent enough to view this media with some skepticism. Finally, why attack the nautch girls? What is the analogy? Its my understanding that ``nautch girls`` or private club dancers work hard for their money...and dismissing them seems really unfeminist)

3. Are guinea pigs the solution? If the System has the nerve, then it ought to flex its muscles on a regular basis. (analogy b/n mice and muscle? what are the similarities?)


4. ``They are the social butterflies. `` (who? unless this is a play on words-as in social cause/pretty moths flitting around a light...but then this metaphor/pun came after that whole nautch girl/media thing)

I hope this post is suitably relevant to this board.

#57
FV
You said,{{{truth is relative}}

Based on your article, truth is absolute. At least this is how I am approaching this article.

Truth is either absolute or doesn`t exist at all. When the term relative comes under truth, then it doesn`t remain truth, it becomes SUSPICION and suspicion is uncertain, suspicion is mistrust, suspicion is relative...........when it gets clear with clarity of evidence and clarity of mind it becomes TRUTH nothing, but truth.

My opinion about your article is my truthful opinion and that is my absolute truth with out any suspicion or doubt.

Thank you

The negativity has been alluded to by almost everyone here. Therefore, it would do well for any one individual not to imagine that their words are all that important that they need to be addressed directly, especially considering their contribution to this board and several others has been one-liners. The rest essentially has been to bring in their personal battles with other interactors and disrupt boards.

We know just how innocent such posts are. I would request those who respond to these baits to steer clear, for their posts will be filtered out too.

To the rest: kindly stick to the subject as you have been doing.
- - -
#49 by arjun_m:

Yes, of course it is about promoting RDB; I merely let you know about the other film...incidentally, the name is `Fanaa`.

Re. Patkar...that is your opinion.
- - -
Zeena:

We all are agreed that truth is relative. Wonder why if I can accept that, it is so tough for others to do so. I am clear about my stand and engage in a dialogue (about the subject) to at least see the other person`s clarity.

- - -
PS: Too much information is not bad if you know what your own stand is. Then every extra bit of info is either an embellishment or something that can be extricated.

Hinjras clapping and slapping each other - that is what India is - a tamasha for the world....

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Truth hurts and FV is the one who brought the truth out.......she is crystal clear in her stand against FALLACIES in the system.
She is successful in pointing out truth, nothing but the truth. Some people can not stand the heat of the truth, they are unable to see eye to eye with the truth..........she gave them a jolt to hit the exact cranial nerve, where they can feel the pain, ouch.....................

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#47 by GT on April 19, 2006 8:21am PT



For those who believe in free markets, you have to pay heed to property rights.


I guess America is Stalinist too then..

What? you`ve never heard of eminent domain?

#45 by FarzanaVersey on April 19, 2006 7:15am PT


If people can bring out such strong reactions, it only means they are successful in what they have set out to do.


Sure he`s successful at what he set out to do...if what he set out to be was a socialist/commie anti-development rat..


No, the movie is not that old…there is a new one about to be released. I think he plays a terrorist. Everybody in the entertainment business needs publicity. He always gives interviews just before his film is to be out.


Your piece accusses him for promoting Rang de Basanti because he brought the cast of RDB along..now he`s promoting his new movie?


He may be genuine in his concern for some issues, but do not run down Patkar just to buffer him.


Patkar deserves condemnation of her own right and by her own actions..

Reading the discussion here is making me more confused , sometimes too much information is not good & at times limited information is useful -
I think people here on chowk seems good at writing & don`t seem to understand practical life & how it works .
In Urdu theres as phrase which goes like `tanqeed barayay tanqeed` which goes like criticism for criticism - no matter what happens there will be people who will `criticize` anything & everything just for the sake of criticizing - either its a fashion now or something else only they know .
My opinion is that,
kah , its the duty for anyone who is popular & if he / she is heard or considered role model in ones respected society has a moral obligation to stand up for causes - Imran Khan did it , Abrar ul Haq did it - lot of Pakistani Pop Singers , Sportsmen & others are doing it - atleast they are contributing something , anything -

An aside:

For those who believe in free markets, you have to pay heed to property rights. The dam has, is and will deprive people of property. As far as compensations are concerned, they cannot be dictated by one party (i.e. the government). Compensations have to be negotiated ex-ante and with each landholder. If many people in Gujrat are to become better off and some worse off, then transactional feasibility can result only when those who are better off can compensate those who are worse off and as a process nobody is worse off. Since no market for such transactions exist, the transaction has to be carried out through the government. That is, those who are going to be potentially better off should be taxed and these taxes should be used to compensate those whose property is to be taken away. If this cannot be done, then sorry the project is simply not feasible. It does not matter who says what. Forceful implementation by the govt. is nothing but Stalinist. Such implementation has to be opposed by all means within the present legal framework. It also does not matter if China or some other country can bring about such forceful implementation to increase growth. Indians have to focus more on creating markets.

Harimau #36 {``The answer I got in Bangkok was a surprise. I was told that if I bought the car, the salesgirl would probably spend a couple of weeks with me, and that given the option of walking the streets to make ends meet or making the sale, she would prefer the latter as it pays better. You never know until you ask! ``}

Hari,
LOL. And I spent my time hanging around Patpong for nothing. I should have headed right for the Yugo dealership!

More..

#23, #35 by ballukhan

[may be he did not associate with the Polio drop campaign and now wants to promote some public movement.......may be something about the poor villagers inspired him to speak for them...........and you cannot expect one person to speak for every cause because it is physically and intellectually impossible to devote one`s time to every other cause]

There is a vast difference between Polio drop campaigns and the NBA. The former is an endorsement where the government is a participant, therefore there is no antagonistic System to deal with. The NBA is a movement where the forces are not just the government but also big industrial houses. The issue is far too delicate, and whoever wishes to align themselves with this cause will have to not take a ‘balanced’ pov; you have to stick your neck out and say you are for this or against it completely. Aamir, by saying he is for the dam, is watering down the argument.

[Amir Khan who has atleast shown the truthfulness to say that he does not know the dertails of the issues behind the dam`s height but he is concerned about the lack of proper rehabilitation of the villagers.............]

Okay, so next time I write an emotional piece about my ‘concern’, but is a bit short on facts, I should hope you will be kind enough to support me. Or do I have to be a celebrity?

[There are a number of loaded questions thrown around within the body of this article which distracts a reader`s attention from the issues raised within the article.]

If you noticed the issues raised, then you have not been distracted.

[FV, you need to make assertions and put forth arguments without putting all those `` ? `` as if the reader knows the ``obvious`` answer to them or assumes that the author`s charges and accusations have been proven because these questions are left unanswered in the article!!]

I do not have the answers to everything, which is why all the “?” Ask Aamir to make assertions and provide arguments, too.

To get to the specific queries you pointed out…

[``Did he join any agitation to get water for those people then and in the intervening years? ``]

He did not. That is why he is now talking about the scarcity. It is a valid question.

[``Do they know about boys who are exploited by the cops? ``]

Why do you find this accusation needs to be proven? As a citizen, would you not express doubts about these matters?
- - -

#31 by chaltahai:

[We see this in the west all the time. An actor somehow feels that he has the right to adopt a cause to rail against Bush`s or Clinton`s policies. He gets media attention, uses the celebrity, his celebrity is used by orgs that cater to his thinking to further promote and prepare entire agendas around the celebrity. It`s all good....]

One, you are talking about making common cause with a certain political ideology, which is part of the System. As I have stated earlier, the issue becomes delicate if it is driven by voluntary organisations.

Two, like celebs in the west who support anti-fur campaigns, or PETA etc, these are essentially appealing to individual choices. They’re not about policy decisions. We too have many celebs who work for these causes and that is fine.

I would like to add here that when Aamir joined, Medha Patkar made it clear that he would be ready to make sacrifices.
- - -

#32 by IB:

[Does the case make the celebrity or does the celebrity make the case?]

Neither. The case is there, which is really a cause in this instance. The celebrity can speak up for a case, but cannot make a case. There needs to be sufficient grounds for how committed/genuine s/he is. If Sanjay Dutt speaks up against drugs, we know he is talking from a position of knowledge and experience.

[in a media age where there are so many options available - one listens to whom he could relate too - now as a Pakistani , I would listen to someone like ( hate to admit ) Abrar-ul-Haq more then lets say a politician - reason being is simple that I could relate to him]

This is not about who you or I listen to; it is about what action can be taken. Let me ask you: would you listen to Asma Jehangir
or Abrar? Would you listen to Ardeshir Cowasjee or Abrar? Celebs aur celebs mein bhi fark hota hai.

[in our society ( India / Pakistan ) we somehow are in a hibit of criticizing no matter what - atleast someone is doing something - contributing , raising a voice - let him / her to it - atleast he // she is better then us that they are doing something practical not nothing b.shi*ting in our drawing-rooms or typing it on this forum]

You are not going to see Aamir Khan in every rally/agitation. He too will be in his drawing room. May I draw your attention to the fact that some of us have indeed been in the field, worked at the ground level, and because we feel our contribution is paltry as compared to those who give so much more time and effort, we type out our concerns. It is unfortunate that these days to be considered legit you need to be a film star/socialite even to type out on fora. Tab sab shabaashi dega…
- - -

#41 by arjun_m:

[Anand Patwardhan has been a lifelong socialist/commie anti-development rat and somehow that`s a positive thing..him and medha patkar make me want to disown my father`s tribe..]

If people can bring out such strong reactions, it only means they are successful in what they have set out to do.

[Amir Khan otoh is 100% genuine..I watched a private video of him when he visited Indian soldiers in a certain part of Kashmir..He`s the last person to need free publicity..it`s been what? a few months since his movie came out?]

No, the movie is not that old…there is a new one about to be released. I think he plays a terrorist. Everybody in the entertainment business needs publicity. He always gives interviews just before his film is to be out.

He may be genuine in his concern for some issues, but do not run down Patkar just to buffer him.
- - -

Thank you to the few people who can see beyond the ‘negativity’

And GT, I liked the article myself. Just in case the irony escapes some, I am merely confirming what interactors here are trying to say: that self-promotion is not such a bad thing!

Re: # 39

FV:

These are people (both incestuous and non-incestuous :) ) who look upon Aamir Khan as a person worth emulating. As to the young generation..well they are our only hope as President Kalam reminds us so frequently and some of them may be enticed by the actor to the cause.

Aamir was candid enough to admit, that after the Gujarat riots, he didn`t speak up as he should have, but now for whatever motivation or reason, he has found his voice and is using it for a cause dear to him. The proof would be if he is consistent in the future and continues to speak out and support the causes he wants to. Of course, i don`t think he is looking for endorsement from netizens such as you and me :).

He could have sent a petition to the PM sure..but he chose another route which he probably thought would garner more publicity for the cause.

As to the fast track justice system, yes it is loaded in favour of celebs and foreigners, but i am sure some enterprising lawyer would file a PIL in some court to ensure that it is applicable for all or something similar.

Cheers
Jayant

On side note:-Criminal injustice System can`t be 100% perfect as it is made and practiced by imperfect humans, unless treated and prevented for the factors which lead to future injustices. Let`s Hope..................................

Dear Chief Editor
Your article is a prototypical example of a ,``Truthful writer``. You just hit the nail on the head, hit the nerve and step on the tail of the criminal injustice seen in third world countries with extreme biasedness. Wonderful..................................

These are the extract of the whole article,{{He is just too smart. He is not fighting for any cause but pitting himself in a very heroic role.}}

{{ How many poor tribals/commoners are even aware of the concept of justice, leave alone fighting for it? }}

{{Real citizen`s awareness is dying. ‘Vox pop’ is now the voice of crystal consciences.}}

You hanged the criminal injustice with your words.Bravo

Your article informed us truthfully the flaws and big black holes of the judicial system to raise awareness with clarity of your mind. Truthful writers play a big role in educating and informing commoners. This is the type of leadership that third world countries lack.

There are lots of criminal injustice, day to day stories, unfortunately only few of them come up surface, majority never do. Criminal injustice system in these countries exploits the poors with the help of corrupt police which plays a major role in coercing innocent citizens to make false confessions for the crime they never commit and meanwhile letting go of the real criminals based on their power and links...................tragic, haan.confirmed BIASEDNESS.

#39 by FarzanaVersey on April 18, 2006 9:28pm PT

Anand Patwardhan has been a lifelong socialist/commie anti-development rat and somehow that`s a positive thing..him and medha patkar make me want to disown my father`s tribe..

Amir Khan otoh is 100% genuine..I watched a private video of him when he visited Indian soldiers in a certain part of Kashmir..He`s the last person to need free publicity..it`s been what? a few months since his movie came out?

What`s so hard to understand? Any cause needs to be amde sexy otherwise people just don`t pay any attention to it. Simple as that.

Medha Patkar has been screaming herself hoarse about displaced tribals and what not for two decades now. All it has done has established her image as some of sort of goody-two-shoes at best and annoying anti-progress busybody at worst. Aru-baby got in on the bandwagon a while ago, but nobody takes her seriously anyway- they just want to see pictures of her and even that novlety has faded after she cut off all her hair.

Aamir Khan (and crew) joining the party is just what the NBA needs. In fact, strictly speaking, Aamir is not anti-dam, as the NBA is. He is just insistent that, having accepted that dams are required for progress (a premise contested nby Medha and her NBA buddies), fair recompense needs to be made to those displaced by the waterlogging of surrounding areas. Is that too much to ask?

Modi is a loser. His ``Gujarat and nothing else`` rhetoric may win him votes but he aint fooling nobody. I can`t wait to see how his stupid hunger strike ends.

Aamir Khan zindabad. Arjun_m is right, if more celebrities lent their voices to honorable causes rather than trying to keep flyovers out of their posh localities and shooting endangered species in the jungle, we would be a lot better off.

I thought most Indians would be with me on this.

#10 by jaymog:

[If through Kangaroo courts and Celebrity justice, if it does awaken social conscience of the people, then it would have served its purpose.]

I deliberately used the phrase celebrity quotes and kangaroo justice…don`t go spoiling it for me…

When you talk about awakening social conscience, who do you think these people are? The same incestuous group. Do we dignify trade union rallies and other protests by ordinary people in the same manner? I have spoken up for Arundhati Roy and her role in NBA earlier, because the commitment is different.

I don’t think this has got anything to do with Aamir Khan’s or anyone’s intellectual growth. I don’t understand how people can suddenly find a cause dear? Do note that Anand Patwardhan etc too took out a rally in Mumbai – I do not think that is a publicity stunt, for despite certain views I may have about Patwardhan, his involvement with these issues goes back in time.

[As to the whole of `RDB` team showing up..maybe it was to entice the younger generation of Indians to the cause. Atleast, he is honest about it or so it seems. It is easy to be a cynic, all of us are some more, some less.]

Do you seriously believe that enticing of the younger generation is going to be enough? What would they be enticed by – the cause or the actor? What will they do after they have been enticed? Is Aamir Khan or anyone going to put pressure on the government? Then we would like to know why this happens – only celebs who suddenly reach the scene have this kind of access to the powers-that-be? It does seem like a no-win situation and you may again accuse me of cynicism, but asking a few questions does no one any harm.

It is the courts and the government that will decide. In fact, the PM has been vested with the power this time. Would it not have been a good idea if Mr. Khan had spearheaded a petition campaign and gone straight to the PM?

[You could have also written about the son of IPS officer who was sentenced in Alwar for the rape of a german tourist. The charges, trial and conviction happening within a space of weeks. And we all complain about the extreme tardiness of Indian justice system.]

I touched upon this fast-track justice in part 2. My grouse is famous cases where celebs and foreigners are involved seem to be getting quickie justice.
- - -
#23 by ballukhan:

Will address your other queries later but at least you ought to understand that there was no juxtaposition of the two actors. I have dissed Salman earlier…the idea of the celeb as prey has to be seen in the context it was written. Here, in a role reversal, the tribals were deified for challenging the ‘hero’.
- - -
Is it always necessary to term me elitist? I do not live in Kemp’s Corner and I do not support Lata Mangeshkar’s move to oppose the flyover.

FV,

Very well put........hard hitting........and right where it should be.......below the belt. A suggestion: A hindi version could perhaps be sent to Navbharat Times for publication. Great write-up FV.

Re: # 34
[Me are having a scholarly discussion in Latin.]

...i wish you would learn english before slaughtering latin...;)

Ref Salim_Chauhan #8

[.... I have always been careful not to buy products just because of the sexy peddler is slouched all over whatever it is that they are trying to make my buy.]

I, on the other hand, always ask the salesman whether that sexy model draped on the hood of the car is standard equipment or optional!

PS. The answer I got in Bangkok was a surprise. I was told that if I bought the car, the salesgirl would probably spend a couple of weeks with me, and that given the option of walking the streets to make ends meet or making the sale, she would prefer the latter as it pays better.

You never know until you ask!

PPS. Talk about ``Turkish delight`` in Bangkok!

There are a number of loaded questions thrown around within the body of this article which distracts a reader`s attention from the issues raised within the article. FV, you need to make assertions and put forth arguments without putting all those `` ? `` as if the reader knows the ``obvious`` answer to them or assumes that the author`s charges and accusations have been proven because these questions are left unanswered in the article!! For example:

``Did he join any agitation to get water for those people then and in the intervening years? ``

or

``Do they know about boys who are exploited by the cops? ``

etc etc.........

#28 saminasha writes ad Misericordiam arguments.

My response: Veni, Vedi, Vici!!

Aside to Delhiwala: Please dont worry. Me are having a scholarly discussion in Latin.

PS to saminasa: Quo Vadis

Aside to Delhiwala: I just asked saminasha in a scholarly way

PPS to saminasha: and dont dare Ad captandum vulgus

Aside to Delhiwala: This is how we scholars talk. In Latin. :-)

Re: # 32: On a side note...your comment about inherent cynicism reminded me of a comment my uncle made when I was going for a walk with him in a newly deeloped colony in trans Jumna, delhi. Looking at a much larger koThi that was being built right near his 6 bedroom, driveway, marble foyer meagre accomodation, he sneered and mutterd..``sab kay paas saalon ka black ki kamai hai..`` Now the neighbor was an accountant whose entire resume was posted on the plaque in front of house. It read``

``Prem Bhavan
Res of Mr. Satish Bhatia
CFA, MBA, Charter Member Delhi Association of Accountants``

Kaaley ki kamai indeed. :-)

We got Bono of U2 as a example who has `attracted attention` & helped millions in Africa - if he gets publicity from this , its a very small price to pay -
again my question remains unanswered ,
Does the case make the celebrity or does the celebrity make the case?

as chatahai described in his post that in a media age where there are so many options available - one listens to whom he could relate too - now as a Pakistani , I would listen to someone like ( hate to admit ) Abrar-ul-Haq more then lets say a politician - reason being is simple that I could relate to him -
in our society ( India / Pakistan ) we somehow are in a hibit of criticizing no matter what - atleast someone is doing something - contributing , raising a voice - let him / her to it - atleast he // she is better then us that they are doing something practical not nothing b.shi*ting in our drawing-rooms or typing it on this forum .

On a macro level celebrity causes are prone to the postulate proposed by #1. If celebrities are giving a voice to causes that require needed attention, what is wrong with that? If they are benefitting from this symbiosis, what is wrong with that? In an age where information and image can topple governments and corporations, it is only good that celebrity personalities are being used or the personalities are using their celebrity to bring attention to worldly causes.

We see this in the west all the time. An actor somehow feels that he has the right to adopt a cause to rail against Bush`s or Clinton`s policies. He gets media attention, uses the celebrity, his celebrity is used by orgs that cater to his thinking to further promote and prepare entire agendas around the celebrity. It`s all good....

#25

``...that`s so typical of the FV/LM kemps corner type of people who use flyovers all over bombay...``

If I had any doubts left, this proves for sure you are Bandra kid :)

Re: # 26
Mr Hamzaad,
Not every piece of written workmanship is perfect in all the senses and angles. Neither it is meant to please every chowkie.

Farzana is writing of her own free accord what she pleases. There was plenty of clarity in her message.
Now let us talk specifically about your point.

You are a man and so am I. However, I am also a proud father of 2 yr old girl and I certainly know how to nurture female energy.

Have you ever seen an Indian woman going to Thana in India reporting a rape?
First thing that happens is her FIR is rejected and she is asked to prove that SEX was not censenting. Then the Father and Mother`s statement is recorded, all this happeneing while the whole crowd is watching the drama with crocodile tears.
From a woman`s perspective it is very important that rehabilation physcial+emotional+social be on top of Radar screen then the stricter laws.

What is so difficult to understand?

As far as two women whose names you have referred, everybody on Chowk knows what they are capable of...

Re: # 27

please spare us the ad misericordiam arguments, thank you.

This was such a sad article and look at which direction it went. It makes me very sad that www.chowk.com is probably the only forum on the WWW where we can discuss such like things and fanatic Pakis and Indis steer them away to suit their agendas.

Among al the things Farzana has mentioned in this article the most sickening was the one where a 14 yr old girl was gang-raped and then Zahira`s case in Gujrat.

Are`nt we all ashamed to be Indians or Pakistanis, if not then aren’t we ashamed of being humans?

Why is nobody even discussing this openly?
I can understand that Fantasywala thread could be made fun of as it was very fluffy and not serious. But why this thread????

You all are Namards!!

Nobody has to even ban me from Chowk, I might even leave on my own accord, if things do not change.

I am very emotional today after seeing some disturbing stories from Delhi about a Widow-Village(where Sikh widows were condemned) and now this article had made me lose my faith in DESI-Land.

I would rather be with Cold Gora-Log`s company and discuss baseball averages and which beer is good versus being in the company of Chowkies who have nothing else but to pull each other`s legs.

Laanat hai tum logo pai!!

`Case: The cop who raped a teenager on Mumbai’s Marine Drive has got 12 years’ imprisonment. Good. They are demanding more. Who are they? Mostly, the residents of the posh locality where the police chowkie was located. Have they done anything for the girl? Isn’t that more important?`

What kind of objection is this?? If some people want tougher penalties for crimes, why is that being compared with `social sympathizing` with the girl? If there is a random rape 5000 miles away, should kaka be calling the girl or supporting a tougher stand on crime in future? Why not both? How is one better than the other?

Versey, you have to learn to think clearly. Despite admonishments about your `whiney analysis`, you have failed to improve on your argument making skills. This results in saminasha et al chiming in about your lack of thinking skills and making general mockery of your editorial abilities. kaka does not like that at all!

#23 by ballukhan on April 18, 2006 10:15am PT


Amir has voluntarily associated himself with some public cause.


Yes..absolutely..and a cause that isn`t self-serving...unlike Lata Mangeshkar, who is threatening to leave bombay if they build a flyover on pedder road....that`s so typical of the FV/LM kemps corner type of people who use flyovers all over bombay but when it comes to flyovers in their area: NIMBY...

Re: # 20

I am pretty sure, this Muslim footpathia`s hindu neighbor must have pushed him in front of actor`s car.

Amir is in the news for all the right reasons................Salman is in the news for all the wrong reasons................I do not find any justification in juxtapositioning the two....Amir has voluntarily associated himself with some public cause....Salman with his haughty swagger kills endangered species and poor men without any remorse........and we find an article where Salman is turning into a poor victim and Amir into a scheming publicity hungry celebrity.......this is absolutely unfair...........

Now what has Amir Khan done wrong..........is he saying ``please put some camera on my face because NBA is the latest news and I am sponsoring it``.....Isn`t it the same charge which every celebrity from Richard Gere to Angelina Jolie has to face.........come on, he is probably trying to associate with a few causes that every `celebrity` should be associating..........may be he did not associate with the Polio drop campaign and now wants to promote some public movement.......may be something about the poor villagers inspired him to speak for them...........and you cannot expect one person to speak for every cause because it is physically and intellectually impossible to devote one`s time to every other cause , if you were to blame other celebrities for not raising more such causes then blame it on other `celebrities` like Salman Khan and his gang for driving in drunken rage like frustrated mawali and killing innocent people........... blame it on celebrities like Salman who talk nonsense about being the contact person of the mafia in Mumbai..Blame it on these `celebrities` and not Amir Khan who has atleast shown the truthfulness to say that he does not know the dertails of the issues behind the dam`s height but he is concerned about the lack of proper rehabilitation of the villagers.............

Salman Khan is Hindu as was the buck. In fact the buck stopped there. The footpathwalla was an ISI agent - that is why Salman got off so easy in the case of the dead Paki.

Re: # 16

Urstruly
Are you claiming the buck was Muslim? I thought he belonged to the LJA (Large Jungle Animal) vanishing caste of Hindus? -)

#16 by Urstruly on April 18, 2006 9:48am PT

The dead footpathwallah was muslim too..

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Re: # 15

Stop persecuting Muslims in your country. The buck was already dead upon his arrival. Tribals planted the bullet.

#4 by Urstruly on April 18, 2006 7:23am PT

a lot more footpathwallahs than black buck...and the tribals don`t seem to be interested in taking money and changing their testimony, like the relatives of the dead footpathwallah did...

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This makes me sad, especially the last case of 14 yr old being raped and mother made to file her release.
This is so crazy!

In Punjab when I visited with my social activists friend about the dwendelling F/M ratio. Many of the woman responed by saying ``Men are more important than Woman, that is why it is Ok to get rid of the Female foetus in its earlier stage and it is not a crime.``

My American and Canadian Sikh-Woman friends were spell bound to hear this from fellow woman.

Amir Khan: He is just a budding star who is trying to make political career for himself when he is old. If you notice he is trying for Hollywood`s attention instead of local chaap movies where Rickshawalas clap. I`d say he is the smartest of all Bollywood actors and a good one too.

Zahira: is a slap on Indian Penal Code. This innocent girl was tormented by the ghastly murders and then she is expected to stand on her own.
In America, No Jury would have punished her for sanity or mental truama she suffered.

Till the murders are allowed ot roam free wheather Sikh riots or Ahemdabad riots I will be one angry person.

Not even one token scapegoat was punished....shame....

Re: # 11

Very negatively written piece- the tone and language (i.e. crap, etc) does little to improve the thesis.

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If through Kangaroo courts and Celebrity justice, if it does awaken social conscience of the people, then it would have served its purpose. Looking on the brighter side, it is a beginning of sorts. And maybe, Aamir Khan has grown intellectually and the fact that he believes he is in a position to do something about a cause he finds dear, he is doing something about it. To dismiss it out of hand as a publicity stunt would be unfair to Aamir Khan. As to the whole of `RDB` team showing up..maybe it was to entice the younger generation of Indians to the cause. Atleast, he is honest about it or so it seems. It is easy to be a cynic, all of us are some more, some less.

You could have also written about the son of IPS officer who was sentenced in Alwar for the rape of a german tourist. The charges, trial and conviction happening within a space of weeks. And we all complain about the extreme tardiness of Indian justice system.

Cheers
Jayant

#8, *make me buy NOT make my buy. :)

Farzana,
I found this article to be both informative and thought-provoking. I never realized how many of us get duped into supporting causes just because our favorite football player, baseball player, or cricket captain is endorsing the campaign. I have always been careful not to buy products just because of the sexy peddler is slouched all over whatever it is that they are trying to make my buy.

The one exception I do want to make is Imran Khan using his fame as a catalyst to build that cancer hospital in Lahore.

Very good article and I look forward to more. You have a unique way of presenting issues so that the most obscure aspects come to light in a crystal clear manner. Thanks.

#4 LOL.. inshallah

that was salman khan..look at him...he should be a big hit in central jail?

Re: # 4
nope that was Salman Khan -

Re: # 4
nope that was Salman Khan -

Didn`t this guy kill another rare animal a couple of years ago - a footpathia on a Bombay sidewalk??

what is the rehabilitaiton package for the displaced?

the understanding is: there is none or too little. can you elaborate on it.

what does guj. gov say about it??

Is this person sentenced to 6 years for killing rare animals?

Farzana,
Does the case make the celebrity or does the celebrity make the case?