South Asian Socialism

Re: # 47

> May Allah give them more SUV`s ... but more than that, may Allah give them more sensitivity

Zee ji,
I dunno bout the latte and SUV part - but if the sensitivities of the two populations were exchanged, ur species would be in a real soup....

HamidmJi,

1) Re the India billionaires:

Quoted from Saima Shah`s excellent article ``The Modernity Conspiracy``

You raise the standard of living for a section of population in a third world country and that section would ensure that their country stays hooked up with the first world.

Zeemax:
These are the `pardoned turkeys` as described by Arundhti Roy.

Saima Shah is the same SUV driving expatriate like you Sir, and Zeena. The difference however is `sensitivity`.

#18 to Mr. Gill`s article ``Theory and the Facts of Life``.

... the world wealth is concentrated in a few hands, and it stays there and grows there. A little wealth is transferred, of-course, to cliques of a few in the rest of the world, but pardoned turkeys are necessary for sustenance of the system. The rest are sacrificed.

Hope the above sufficiently challenges your contention that a few billionaires here and there are a sign of progress for the unwashed masses of the undeveloped world. And if you personally are safely ensconced and secure in an environment of growing wealth doing your duty of paying your mexican to mow your lawn or the korean to launder your shirts, that absolves you of responsibility and makes you feel good having done your duty in return for your good fortune. That would in common terms be deemed as being `selfish` ... wouldn`t it?

2) You have invoked the Chinese example many times. That is incorrect. China is a still a communist country, not capitalist. They have their own peculiar mix of combining the seemingly opposing capitalist and communist idealogies, which has worked so far. Only time will tell how far it succeeds in the long-haul. Wages are still fixed centrally in China and basics are still the responsibility of the State, accounting for their comparative advantage in manufacturing. Private ownership is only allowed in special coastal regions e.g. Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and of-course Hong Kong. There are controls over immigration from rural areas to these regions, and the gap between rich and poor is increasing, not declining. There are lots of pressures building up amongst the rural populations because of this anamoly because, after all, why should a Shanghai resident be able to buy a condominium when a Shanxi resident cannot? They are all Chinese. So it is, basically, selectve capitalism and chaos cannot be unexpected because, if one can be greedy, why not the other?

Mexico is a better example.

3) Re the domestic help examples which you so effectively demonstrate ... I`m glad Pedro has leased a GMC truck by mowing your lawn etc to send money to his family living by an open sewer in Tijuana. Well ... you`re certainly doing your bit.

I have a driver ... (not Mexican. He`s from some Chak near Multan). He has five daughters and a son. Eldest is a daughter of 13. His wife works too as domestic help. The driver`s pay is Rs. 6,000/-per month. His duty is 7:30 AM till anywhere from midnight till 3:00 AM (he has to clean the cars so they are spotless before Mr. Zeemax departs for office and to open the car door with a salute and making sure the A/C is running, then do odd jobs all day, then Mrs. Zeemax has one or the other engagements like Mehndi etc which lasts till the wee hours). His wife and elder daughter (13) work for the Zeemax`s too sweeping floors and cleaning bathrooms and flipping rotis. Their salary is Rs. 2000/- per month combined. None of the kids go to school. It is Rs. 8,000/- per month ($ 133) to hire an entire family.

Now, my question to you, Sir, is are they laggards? Or Lazy? Do they work harder than the Zeemax`s or not? If they worked even harder, would it make a difference in their lives? And how? Could their children go to school if they worked harder? That 13 year old girl looks pretty intelligent sweeping the floor. Given the chance, I don`t see how she could not make it to McGill like Zeemax Junior? Only difference is she was born in Chak #19 Multan Division District Phallianwali to a Driver, while Zeemax Jr. was born to Mr. Zeemax. Nothing else. Difference was in opportunities.

Can people compete in a race when the the `go` gun was fired after making sure other runners were in shackles?

Pedro will continue to mow lawns, and he`ll keep sending the money leftover from paying the lease-rentals on his GMC to his family on a sewer in Tijuana. But that`s where they all will remain. On a sewer. Despite that Mexico is a member of Nafta with highest growth in the region and there are quite a few `billionaires` over there too!

The allegation of `Pinko` commies shedding crocodile tears does have a ring of truth. The challenges are enormous and beyond their area of authority, but at-least they `feel`. However, according to the 20/80 principle, it`s 20% who make a difference, while 80% shed tears. Those 20% will `implement` sooner than later. Only then things will change.

In the meantime, cheers and enjoy your latte`, not to mention the Muscadet` white!

#48 by wiseguyin

...but if the sensitivities of the two populations were exchanged, ur species would be in a real soup....

You mean between expat and non-expat populations.

I was an expat most of my life so far. I just didn`t like living in someone else`s country and eating out of what belonged to their own citizens. It was not for me. I have an identity and a place ... I will not borrow any other just to eat and deprive someone else in that country of their right to a job. That was sensitive of me, or don`t you think so?

#49 by zeemax on May 14, 2006 1:59am PT
zeemax
good post sir.
i personally have a problem with any body who claims certainty, whether its mohammed, marx or hamid.

Re: # 1

Dear Miss Zeena, you`ve hit it right on the head...and it seems to be your own.!

Thank you for providing yet another proof of women being Naqas-ul-aql; i.e. short on grey matter

Cheers :-)~~

Re: # 2

WOW!

I`m blown away by this atomic post of yours. You`re a geniOs with an O oozing out profusely! Did you have Cheerioooooooooos for breakfast or what?

Thanks for the laughs :-)~~

Re: # 3

Simple...read the three verses Sura `Asr carefully and live it to the best of your abilities. Even if you don`t see the results in your lifetime, you`ll have done your part and will be amongst the VIPs on Day of Judgement, insha Allah!

:-)~~

Re: # 4

Dear Oak,

I like your response to Zeena and her ilk:

``Hints suffice for the intelligent, and an idiot cannot be expected to understand anything anyway``

When people move away from Allah, Quran, and His Messenger (PBUH), then good doesn`t appears good to them and nothing bad appears bad to them.


Cheers :-)~~

Re: # 15

Hamidm, stick to the hydraulics you sit upon. Economics and sociology ain`t your cup o` latte...hahaha

:-)~~

Re: # 39

Remember the point being debated is whether India`s handful of billionaires is a true marker of economic prosperity for the common man. Whereas I accept that Indian macro- prosperity has moved forward ($330.6 billion GNI 1990, $571.3 in 2003) the question is how much of this gets through to the common man. The indications of left wing electoral success ie Congress`s elections and the communist continuing hold in Bengal and winning of Kerala indicate a left leaning trend. I accept that elections are black and white results of complex interacting and underlying realities viz. alliances, ideologies, foreign policies etc. but to claim that the election trends have nothing whatsoever to do with the economy is to live in a fanatasy world. Everybody knows what the communists stand for and that Congress is left-wing. At least the 2004 election was a body blow to the BJPs campaign of `India Shining`. The Indian electorate has itself decided on the development of a few billionaires and the development of a super class.

I have no objection if India raises its people from poverty. Any steps in this direction are to be congratulated. But the fact is that poverty is ubiquitous in India. Any visit of India will confirm that. Farmers commit suicide under strains of debt. Whole villages put themselves for sale. Do you really think that India has distributed its economic gains wisely?

Re: # 57

Oak,
You are still not answering my question. Why waste time here if we are convinced we are absolutely right, and don`t want to learn with an open mind?

Farmers have been commiting suicide for 60 yrs. My question is WHAT IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE MODEL? India tried socilaism for 50 yrs every body was poor, now with liberalization some have become rich. To remedy this should we go back to socialism?

You are pretending you know India, sure there is extreme povery of about 300 million, but the all of the remaining 700 million are not ``elites`` or ``super rich``. The life standards of upper and lower middle class also have improved,....

About the bottom 300 mil... literacy rates are improving, efforts are being made to guarantee mplyment, etc. If BJP comes to power next time it will be careful to address this issue. Despite their public rhetoric (they have to do it for survival ) every one shares the nationalistic pride (exception- A Roy) and want to improve the lives of all sections of society.

Contrary to Arundhathi Roy`s anarchist , naxalite propaganda our country is run by economists and people who care about poverty and the poor people.


Sure BJP has more support among the elite, and the well-off but it looks like you and other Pakis get carried away by political rhetoric of Indian politicians and that of anarchist Arundhathi Roy. If she becomes the PM poverty will be instantly alleviated :-)

also you did not answer me : are you for the Islamic PBUH empire? If that`s the case no point in talking with you. Most people on this board (including many Pakistani muslims) consider Masadi idiot to be a 5 legged creature from another planet.

#57 by oak on May 14, 2006 5:54am PT


Congress`s elections and the communist continuing hold in Bengal and winning of Kerala indicate a left leaning trend.


Right..because this is the first time the congress has won in an elections and the first time the commies have come to power in West Bengal and Kerala..

Re: # 49

zeemax mian,

........... i see your point about the inequities in pakistani society, but the answer is to provide equal OPPORTUNITY, not to redistribute wealth using some silly socialist formula ....... not to belittle your point, but henry ford was born on a farm in michigan and his family did not have the proverbial pot to piss in while he was growing up ............ despite this hardship he became a billionaire who has provided pots and pans for millions of people over the years ............ now bill and melinda are providing malaria pills to the starving children in calcutta ...........

................but how do you provide equal opportunity to the poor underclass ?...... how about everyone paying their fair share of taxes so that your driver`s 13 year old daughter can go to a decent school ? ........ (i don`t mean to be facetious, but i thought that it was against the law for kids to be working in pakistan! )........... the backbone of any developed country is a public education system that provides a decent education for the majority of its people ........ the beacon houses and froebels are nothing more than a fancy bandaid on a bleeding corpse ................ but it is wrong to think people in pakistan do not care on an individual level, they do ....... my sister tutors four snooty nosed kids from the katchi abadi every day and my brother pays tuition for half a dozen kids even though two of them are illegal immigrants from afghanistan ............... the problem lies in institutional malaise and the complete inability of the nation as a whole to organize civil society instead of sqauabbling over ``pakstan ka matlab kiya`` ........... that is why i call them lazy lagards and good for nothings - collectively we are just that ............

....... and even though some of your points about china are valid, based on my personal experience it is more capitalistic than the good old usa and insipite of the doom and gloom bandied around by some in the west, the changes are irreversible ........... the rate of change is staggering and it is not just the obvious infrastructure and the starbucks on every corner in shanghai because they have starbucks in xian too (xain is in shaanxi) ........... more importantly, it is how the people standing in line at starbucks think and behave - for starters, the men stand in line wear suits and ties and the women look pretty good in their designer jeans and makeup (chinese cosmetics sales hit US $8B last year - no wonder the chinese women are looking so much better !) ............

...... in addition to starbucks here is another indicator that i use since i live in motor city : indian car sales were up by 25% in March 2006 from March 2005 .......... not to mention that car sales in china were up 42% last December - 2005 total car sales (not including trucks, busses, etc) were ver 3.1M compared to 2.4M in 2004.......... who are all these people buying cars ? ........ where is the money coming from ?

.............. but even though i love cars, i think starbucks is a better indicator of gluttonous consumption which, in turn, is the only true measure of human happiness and well being .......... i know it is a far away dream for the 13 year old sweeping the floor, but as they say, ``god is great`` and ``inshallah`` one day we will discover the true spirit of capitalism ...........

Re: # 57

oak mian,

i know it is difficult for people studying isalm and social justice to understand simple math, but this should not be too difficult :

azim premji and narayana murthy are 2 (1+1) billionairs ( a billion is a thousand million, ie. 1 followed by 9 zeros) ......... so here we go again : premji and narayana are 2 (ie. one greater than one) billionaris who provide employment for over 110,000 common men and women in india (women are people too, you know) ............. and last year they paid a starting salary of between 15-25,000 dollars ........... so how much money did they pay out ? ...... my math fails me here but i think that would be around gazillion zillion rupees which, in my mind, is a lot of money .................

......... but, inspite of what the horrible hindoos say, bangalore will not ``arrive`` untill it has a starbucks - coffee cafe does not count and neither does that fact that starbucks buys beans from tata coffee ....................... so, in a way you are right ......

Re: # 61
>>>......... but, inspite of what the horrible hindoos say, bangalore will not ``arrive`` untill it has a starbucks - coffee cafe does not count and neither does that fact that starbucks buys beans from tata coffee ....................... so, in a way you are right ...... <<<<


loser paki,
did u finish high school? can you write a decent sentence in English?



Trash Paki dreams of Paki-Chini alliance ..... here is a news item on where paki dreams are headed....




http://independent-bangladesh.com/news/may/14/14052006bs.htm#A18

India, China trade may reach $100 billion by 2015

AFP, NEW DELHI

May 13: Bilateral trade between India and China could reach 100 billion dollars in less than 10 years, a Chinese trade official said in a statement released yesterday.

``China and India have a history of increasing bilateral trade for the last 10 years,`` Yu Ping, of the China Council for the Promotion of International Trade, told a meeting of Indian industry leaders. .................

``Remember the point being debated is whether India`s handful of billionaires is a true marker of economic prosperity for the common man.``(oak)

IT IS NOT -- a bucket of expensive mineral water doesn`t make the ocean -- India`s poor is poorer than it was 50 years ago -- the anecdotal rich are getting anecdotally richer -- that`s why the BJP buggers were kicked out of government despite mooning their wrinkled ``India shining``.

don`t worry about my Hamidm`s anecdotal world -- personal success has made his head a little swollen and his satire a little puffy -- except on Islam...:)

...everything even poverty, pestilence, disease, paraplegia ruined environment no internal plumbing no roads -- all depend on the individual -- not on the society -- in fact only individual exists -- no society -- the individual is called the Henry Ford -- and the Society is called the Laggard guy......:)