Has Higher Education Failed India?

Ref swarrier #60

[...I will save my typing for castigating Mr.Behl if I can think of something intelligent to say.]

You really mean if HE has something intelligent to say, which is highly doubtful.

India is populated by over 3000 endogamous groups. These are people who have intermarried among themselves over centuries and have clearly definable cultures and traditions. Many of these groups are migrants, from either outside India or migrated within India.

Now it is exceedingly improbable (probability approaching zero) that all these groups have exactly the same talents on parameters that are valued in present day technological, knowledge driven. Some of these subgroups have done exceedingly well (parsis, iyers, bhargavas, for example.. its likely that some of the so-called OBC groups figure here) in the knowledge driven economy. It is highly likely that they do have an advantage in both genetics and memetics, accrued over centuries of intermarriage and cultural formation (there are academic papers that suggest that genetic advantages can happen just in the span of centuries). Consequently they will be over-represented in highly selective institutions (just like the Ashkenazi Jews in science and tech) because the normal distribution favors groups who have some overall advantage on the extremes.

By the same token the intellectual capital (probably more than 90%) is probably concentrated in 10% of the population. And guess what: these 10% are not representative of the general population. Quotas or reservations will only make the talented folks seek opportunities elsewhere. Also the private sector will come to play an increasing role in education (as they are doing) and quotas really wont matter in the end. As others have said, primary and secondary education are much more dire straits and this is the place that can benefit many more people from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Maybe Pakistan can open institutes without reservations and hire top class Indian faculty and attract Indian students? I am half serious but it could happen, who knows ?

Those readers here who are capable of following a somewhat technical argument about the distribution of scientific talent can see this paper

---

It is a widely held belief, even among senior people in the government, that India is a country with vast human resources and that even if about 10% goes abroad after higher qualifications, it would not make a dent in the country`s total productive potential. Implied
in this argument is the assumption that if 10% of the human resources goes abroad, it would take away only 10% of the intellectual energy in the population. Is there any scientific basis for this? If a scientific, or a mathematical model were to be sought for this, how should this be done? In this article, based on some well-known power-law models used in complex systems like ecology, economics, scientometrics and seismology, one can argue through a soft mathematical model that a small per cent of the cream at the top can
take away a disproportionately large amount of intellectual resources.

---

A soft mathematical model for brain drain for the complete article.

Krishna_abcd
I`m at home now with Mr. Jared Diamond and his Guns and his Germs and Steel. By the way my copy is from the first American publishing in 1998 (funnily it was first published in the UK in 1997) so I had forgotten most of it. Thanks for helping me blow the dust of the covers.

If you will turn to page 218 (Blueprints and borrowed letters) you will see in the middle of the page (assuming you have a similar edition to mine) the statement
`` The two indisputably independent methods of writing were achieved by the Sumerians of Mesopotamia somewhat before 3000 B.C.and by Mexican Indians before 600 B.C. Egyptian writing of 3000 B.C. and Chinese writing (by 1300 B.C.) may also have arisen independently. Probably all other people s who have developed writing systems since then have borrowed, adapted or at least been inspired by existing systems.``

Further on page 227 ``Semites (Arabs) familiar with Egyptian hieroglyphics did begin to experiment with that logical step.`` ( meaning move from signs and logograms to consonantal alphabet, and so you see the Semites are considered to be a different race).

Then on 227 again last paragraph `` A far more important line evolved by way of the Aramaic alphabet , used for official documents of the Persian Empire, into the mordern Arabic, Hebrew, Indian. and South East Asian alphabets``

So you see I did read the book a long time ago. Only approaching senility makes me forget large parts of it. I shall not post anymore on this topic. I will save my typing for castigating Mr.Behl if I can think of something intelligent to say.

Have a nice weekend.

Sadanand

Re: # 58
[Sez who]
Ancient egyptians are not necessarily considered a part of the semitic race. Only the Copts consider themselves descendants of the ancient egyptians and they feel they are not Arabic.

[The point is that there were NONE until the 1800s.]

Your original post said 1900 for the Vai script. We won`t go into your got it routine here.

[This tells me that you most certainly have NOT read the book. ]
Suits me, I can`t prove anything because the book is at home and I am at work. So you can surmise what you want. I guess you must be fishing into that book like it`s the next best thing since sliced bread.

[Yes, but you missed the point - NO written scripts until the 1800s. ]
Nope following the same line of reasoning the Dark continent really came into contact with other civilisations around the 1700`s. 100 years is not too long for intelligent people to fashion a script.

[If it is clear to you, that means the issue is far from clear.]
I`m sure this made a lot of sense to you but it doesn`t to me.

[Why does pointing to the hard sciences mean that ``saying some people are inferior to other people``?]

I wasn`t talking about the hard sciences here. The two sentences were juxtaposed too closely. I was referring to your post as a whole. It reeks of nothing but a smug sense of superiority.

[It is getting rather irritating to have to repeat myself. HOW MANY Blackwells do you have amongst the huge black population of the world?]
You asked for one scientist. I gave you one.

[My dear fellow, you will notice at the end of this discussion that I am right on EVERY point I mentioned. And you are not. ]
Repeating it loud and often doesn`t change anything. I thought going of at tangents was what you used to accuse other people of. My reply still remains the same. Your original post is prejudiced. Everything else is an attempt to refute what I wrote and justify your bits by hedging about.

[George Washington Carver is NOT very reputed or well-known. Not like Stephen Hawking, or Jagadish Chandra Bose, for example. ]
Stephen Jay Gould knew about George Washington Carver. He`s good enough for me. Jagdish Chandra Bose is known to Indians. And he was a great scientist no doubt. But he`s not exactly known to the hoi polloi. Besides I thought the argument was about being a respected scientist. Not whether the man in the street knew anything about you. Tell me what does the man in the street know about Sankara, or De Morgan.

[And as I mentioned, the quality as well as the quantity is meager. ]
In your second post my friend, after you put both your feet in your mouth squarely in the first post. You just wanted one scientist. It`s not really tiring to me to say this.

[try not to put words in my mouth.

Prejudices in hiring INDEED exist. As I mentioned in the case of the American businessman, IT IS BASED ON PERCEPTIONS. AND TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS, ONE HAS TO HAVE ACHIEVEMENTS. NOT IN HISTORY, OR SOCIAL SCIENCES, BUT IN THE HARD SCIENCES.]
Hmmm I would of course have Stephen Hawking be the Prime Minister of England. Most other people would not think so. Horses for courses , I think you have heard of the term. To me Mozart, is as much a genius as Descartes. I would hire him for a director`s post at a conservatory. Not a scientist. Intelligence comes in various forms. I`m sure Alan Turing would have done a better job being Churchill, and vice versa. Yes, No, maybe?

Now we agree on one thing here. I am not in favour of 50 % reservations myself. That has been amply clear from my posts. I`m simply against tarring entire sections of society with one brush.

Have fun.

#53 by swarrier

[I don`t understand the context of your letter at all. You mentioned that there was no script developed in Africa. Egyptian script by the way is not Arabic. The hieroglyphics were developed by non-Arabs.]

Sez who?

[If Ethiopian script came from Arabic influences are you telling me that scripts all over the world developed completely independent of each other without any cultural exchanges.]

The point is that there were NONE until the 1800s.

Got it?

No?

Oh Well...


[Even your friend Jared Diamond speaks of only two independently developed script forms, one in China and the other one in the Mesopotamian valley. All others are to quote him rip-offs. Which means our Indian scripts too. I have read ``Guns germs and Steel``. It is a good book. But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think. There are alternate theories that exist and there are many scholars who do not agree with Jared Diamond. ]

This tells me that you most certainly have NOT read the book. Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?

I`ll be waiting for your response.


[Incidentally about the Vai script (from your favourite search engine )
A syllabary is a set of characters each of which denotes a syllable rather than a single sound. The Vai syllabary was devised by Momolu Duwalu Bukele in 1830 near Cape Mount in Liberia. It was actually adapted from ancient ideographs that had been in use two centuries before) and is still prevalent today where Vais use it for informal correspondence.

The fact is that Black Africans were capable of developing scripts after being exposed to outside influences just as our ancestors were. ]

Yes, but you missed the point - NO written scripts until the 1800s.

Get it?

No?

Oh well....


[Don`t point to hard sciences etc in your mail. As far as I can infer you are saying some people are inferior to other people. That part is very clear. I am saying you are wrong. ]

If it is clear to you, that means the issue is far from clear.

Why does pointing to the hard sciences mean that ``saying some people are inferior to other people``?


[Why does it have to be hard science to impress you.]

It`s not me, it`s everybody. An achievement in mathematics will change many more minds than the a degree in humanities.

That`s just the way it is. And rightfully so, if I might add.


[Can a Mathematician like Blackwell be anything less than your hard scientist?]

It is getting rather irritating to have to repeat myself. HOW MANY Blackwells do you have amongst the huge black population of the world?


[George Washinton Carver whom I mentioned is a hard scientist. Don`t back track on your argument. You mentioned there was not a single Black hard scientist of international repute. ]

My dear fellow, you will notice at the end of this discussion that I am right on EVERY point I mentioned. And you are not.

George Washington Carver is NOT very reputed or well-known. Not like Stephen Hawking, or Jagadish Chandra Bose, for example.

And as I mentioned, the quality as well as the quantity is meager.


[And since you appreciate google so much you can search for Black scientists (hard sciences) of international repute. You will come up with a few.]

Let me repeat (this is getting rather tiring):

The quality as well as the quantity is meager.


[Don`t tell me that prejudices do not apply in cases of hiring. They change as people change. Otherwise there would not have been signs in Puritan America in the 1800`s saying ``No Irish need apply``. And if it weren`t for affiirmative actiion and people like Martin Luther King none of us would find the US so easy to live in. ]

Try not to put words in my mouth.

Prejudices in hiring INDEED exist. As I mentioned in the case of the American businessman, IT IS BASED ON PERCEPTIONS. AND TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS, ONE HAS TO HAVE ACHIEVEMENTS. NOT IN HISTORY, OR SOCIAL SCIENCES, BUT IN THE HARD SCIENCES.


[Since you are free with your suggestions you may want to read about some African contributions too , to our collective intelligence. ``The Crest of the Peacock`` is a good book.

As you said, check it out. ]

I will check out the ``The Crest of the Peacock``. Se what you are talking about.


[Lastly, your statement ...`And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances.``
So don`t you think you are saying that if you expose these poor folks to culture and a better set of circumstances they will be as good as us enlightened folks. Are you by any chance arguing for affirmative action / reservations? -)]

I am for reservations that are well targeted, limited in scope, and in time. I am AGAINST reservations as they are being proposed today.

AS I HAVE MENTIONED IN MY PREVIOUS POST, the OBCs, SCs, STs etc. bear the lions share of the blame (like the black africans) in their own lack of development, athough upper castes have contributed to it. Therefore, the upper castes should not be made scapegoats (beyond what exists today) in this minority appeasing votebank-targeted political schemes.

Behl dude:

you seem to be hell bent on justifying reservations even when your examples say exactly the opposite.

in your DMK eg. its good that the gov would appoint pundits based on their knowledge of vedas irrespective of their caste. whereas you are justifying jobs/seats based on castes not on the basis of talent.

don`t you see the irony??

also about that Thomas dude who is fretting that IIT chennai doesn`t have enough of Tamilians. hello.... does iit mumbai need to have more marathis or iit kanpur more up-ites....

so as i get it, its good to have reservation/bias in admission as long as it in your favor otherwise its discrimination.

Re: # 55

jang:

``typically these kids were of poor means, sometimes fatherless or orphans, but were brahmin and society made sure to take of them and made sure (almost forced them to) they did school. it was also common for local small-time raja to pick up very basic room-n-board of brahmin kids so that they attended school. these were very basic and brutal institution where kids were always hungry and woke up at 5 am to mug-up shlokas and do yoga-kalisthenics, but other kids of poor means did not have this available.

so its incredibly naiive and baseless to assert that brahmins did things by pulling themselves up by their langoties. they had at times cumpolsary affirmative action supported by larger society. ``

shouldn`t the society at large then should drag the SC/ST/OBC`s kicking and screaming to the schools i.e. primary schools so that their foundation is strong and later on they won`t need crutches for college admission and jobs.

ajeya and harimau, my dear threaded brothers,

forget about really old past. it is a fact that brahmins enjoyed affirmative action for studying (actually they had little choice) in the recent past. in villages and towns of india, it was a common practice to board brahmin student in various homes while they attended school. this is a huge deal. when i was young, i have seen practice in small towns, where the brahmin boy will go to specific homes and shout ``bikshan dehi`` and will get fresh-cooked meal (not basi roti). typically these kids were of poor means, sometimes fatherless or orphans, but were brahmin and society made sure to take of them and made sure (almost forced them to) they did school. it was also common for local small-time raja to pick up very basic room-n-board of brahmin kids so that they attended school. these were very basic and brutal institution where kids were always hungry and woke up at 5 am to mug-up shlokas and do yoga-kalisthenics, but other kids of poor means did not have this available.

so its incredibly naiive and baseless to assert that brahmins did things by pulling themselves up by their langoties. they had at times cumpolsary affirmative action supported by larger society.

tat-astu

The only interesting question about education in india is how to expand it FAST.

How can we ensure that ALL elementary schools are effective?

Can we empower panchayat/neighborhood groups to check every week?

How can we ensure that kids in rural areas stay thru at least 6th or 8th standard?

Can we give a cash payment for every girl who finishes 8th standard?

Can we promise that if a girl completes high school she will be given at least
Rs. 10,000 for marriage/further education/any other expense?

How can we make sure that teachers actually come to school everyday?

How can we make sure that each schooll has some supplies and books for students?

How can we train better teachers and keep them in the teaching profession?

How can we expand high schools, say 4X, in the next 5 years?

How can we double colleges and universities in next 10 years?

NONE OF THIS IS OF ANY INTEREST TO LOSERS LIKE ABHISHEK BEHL. None of this is of interest to any left-wing communist moron ``progressive`` thinkers. THEY HAVE ZERO
INTEREST IN EDUCATION. Their only interest is in showing off words like ``fascist brahmin`` or ``marxist analysis`` or some other stupidity.

THIS IS THE REAL TRAGEDY OF THIS SITUATION.

Re: # 48
Krishna_abcd

I don`t understand the context of your letter at all. You mentioned that there was no script developed in Africa. Egyptian script by the way is not Arabic. The hieroglyphics were developed by non-Arabs. If Ethiopian script came from Arabic influences are you telling me that scripts all over the world developed completely independent of each other without any cultural exchanges.

Even your friend Jared Diamond speaks of only two independently developed script forms, one in China and the other one in the Mesopotamian valley. All others are to quote him rip-offs. Which means our Indian scripts too. I have read ``Guns germs and Steel``. It is a good book. But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think. There are alternate theories that exist and there are many scholars who do not agree with Jared Diamond.

Incidentally about the Vai script (from your favourite search engine )
A syllabary is a set of characters each of which denotes a syllable rather than a single sound. The Vai syllabary was devised by Momolu Duwalu Bukele in 1830 near Cape Mount in Liberia. It was actually adapted from ancient ideographs that had been in use two centuries before) and is still prevalent today where Vais use it for informal correspondence.

The fact is that Black Africans were capable of developing scripts after being exposed to outside influences just as our ancestors were.

Don`t point to hard sciences etc in your mail. As far as I can infer you are saying some people are inferior to other people. That part is very clear. I am saying you are wrong.

Why does it have to be hard science to impress you. Can a Mathematician like Blackwell be anything less than your hard scientist? George Washinton Carver whom I mentioned is a hard scientist. Don`t back track on your argument. You mentioned there was not a single Black hard scientist of international repute.

And since you appreciate google so much you can search for Black scientists (hard sciences) of international repute. You will come up with a few.
Don`t tell me that prejudices do not apply in cases of hiring. They change as people change. Otherwise there would not have been signs in Puritan America in the 1800`s saying ``No Irish need apply``. And if it weren`t for affiirmative actiion and people like Martin Luther King none of us would find the US so easy to live in.

Since you are free with your suggestions you may want to read about some African contributions too , to our collective intelligence. ``The Crest of the Peacock`` is a good book.

As you said, check it out.

Lastly, your statement ...`And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances.``
So don`t you think you are saying that if you expose these poor folks to culture and a better set of circumstances they will be as good as us enlightened folks. Are you by any chance arguing for affirmative action / reservations? -)

Re: # 47

``Merit is a misnomer for prejudice — prejudice based on religion, and caste. And it is deep-rooted and well-entrenched in people`s psyche.``

Tell me O Ye great intellectuals how is 20/100 equal to 90/100 in a maths paper?
Do you mean that the wrong solution provided by some one in his physics question paper is equally `meritorious` just because the solution provider was an SC/ST/OBC or say because his father hit him on the head on that day?

Ref mineguruji #45

[.....and time has come that we consider making rural and tribal placements, at least for a period of three years, compulsory for all prospective doctors.]

Nope. Place the SC/ST/OBC doctors in New Delhi, right next to the ministers` and MPs` bungalows. Every single current and former politician should be treated only by these people. Why should they use their ill-gotten wealth to go to private doctors of repute? Why should they be allowed to go abroad for treatment? They should be forced to take several doses of their own medicine.

[A doctor who is indifferent to social justice is an aberration.]

On the other hand, a politician should not behave as if an SC/ST/OBC doctor is an Untouchable and so he should not be treated by one of them. This is the 21st century.

[Also, there is no reason why the state should subsidise the medical education of the rich, mostly to enable them to find greener pastures abroad or in lucrative private practice in the metropolises.]

Should they subsidize the OBC/SC/ST for the same purpose? Put the MBBS graduates in chains. More so if they didn`t have good enough scores to get in on their own.

Re: # 33

LEt us take this proposal-

Let us create special OBC IIT-s and IIM-s.....let us have an entrance exam only for the OBCs/SC/ST............Let us change the existing IIT Delhi into an exclusive OBC/SC/ST concern...............then let us create new IIT-s , IIM-s at say Patna ...but exclusively for General....like this we would not bastardize the system of merit with the politics that goes in the name of `affirmative action` ............... Let us do it before these good for nothing Red `intellectuals` politicize every bit of private enterprise in India...............

mineguruji #45


`` and time has come that we consider making rural and tribal placements, at least for a period of three years, compulsory for all prospective doctors.
A doctor who is indifferent to social justice is an aberration.
Also, there is no reason why the state should subsidise the medical education of the rich, mostly to enable them to find greener pastures abroad or in lucrative private practice in the metropolises. ``

To say somehow the health statistics of the rural and poor will improve by putting some urban kids in rural areas is completely baseless.

I have no problem if you allow private medical colleges. The rich can study there.

#31 by swarrier

[Okay let`s not get carried away by this sort of reasoning or prejudices. There are factual errors in your statement.]

One of the advantages of having facts on your side, as opposed to hurried google searches, is that one rarely has to put one`s foot in the mouth.

There are NO factual errors in my statement.

[Continental africa does include Egypt which had its script and for that matter the old state of Israel.]

Yes, Northen Africa has been populated by Arab immigrants for many centuries - the Egyptians are and were a mixed race.


[There are also scripts like the Bassa in the area of Liberia]

Developed in the 1900`s, AFTER exposure to other outside scripts.


[there is Ethiopian script]

The Ethiopian script originated from the Arabic script.


[there is the Vai script from West Africa ..... ]

Developed in the 1900s as well.


[There have been African inventors too. For example Graville Woods invented the telegraph system for communicating with moving trains. He was awarded a patent for that in 1887 . David Blackwell in Berkeley has done fundamental work in game theory. George Washington Carver is well known in the area of biology. ]

The quantity, as well as the quality, is pretty meager. Nothing to write home about.


[Closer to home , I`m not sure you could dismiss Ambedkar as a moron could you? ]

No, I would not. But he was no genius either. There were many other, and more qualified people to do the job. The job was given to him as a symbolic gesture - an appropriate one - in my opinion.

But if you read my post, you will see that I am talking about contributions to the hard sciences.


[I would wish to see a level playing field for all , as difficult as it sounds. Otherwise we just exchange one set of reservations for another. ]

You have two more wishes left.



But seriously...


Since you mentioned prejudices - NOTHING I wrote indicates prejudice. I am pointing at facts, not drawing conclusions from them. I am saying that whining is not going to get you respect - actual achievements in the hard sciences will. I remember an American businessman being interviewed about whether he would employ blacks in his company if they were more qualified than a white person. His answer was that NO businessman would choose someone who would make him less money than another person, regardless of color. So my point is that for that businessman to think that a black person would make him the same, or more money than another white, red, or green person, blacks have to establish a reputation for achievements - whining and affirmative action won`t change perceptions.

The same holds true for OBCs/SCs/STs in India.

And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances. Read the book ``Guns, Germs and Steel``. It got the Pulitzer prize a few years ago. A fascinating read. It explains scientifically and quite convincingly why the spread of education and knowledge has varied the way it has all over the world.

Check it out.

Here are some letters from the Backward castes for the kind perusal of readers.

Quota issue

The protests against the Centre`s proposal to reserve 27 per cent seats for the Other Backward Classes in Central universities are motivated by vested interests. The issue is not about the dilution of standards; it is about denying the backward citizens access to higher education. If the striking students are indeed concerned about declining standards, why do they remain silent on the issue of management quota seats? It is well known that admission to colleges through the quota is by hefty capitation fee. Does it admit meritorious, poor students?

K.M. Abbas,
Ernakulam, Kerala
The protests are unfortunate and unjust. The elite have forgotten that they have enjoyed 3,000 years of 100 per cent reservation in every aspect of life — from education to law making. The backward classes had no access to education. Even today, most sweepers are Dalits and almost all priests belong to the forward caste. The forward castes have not become elite overnight. Better education and occupational opportunities, combined with a false sense of superiority, have helped through generations. It is now time to empower the marginalised sections.

Yogesh Kumar,
New Delhi
Merit is a misnomer for prejudice — prejudice based on religion, and caste. And it is deep-rooted and well-entrenched in people`s psyche. It manifests in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways in all aspects of our life. As long as caste continues to be part of our socio-economic discourse, we need laws to ensure justice and equality.

J.C. Anthony,
Bangalore
The only viable immediate solution seems to be to increase the number of seats by 27 per cent.

N. Ananthakrishnan,
Pondicherry