Has Higher Education Failed India?

Ref jang #117

[abe harimau, do you think tamilnadu is worse-off as compared to other states who have less reservation than not? stick to real evidence here.]

Well, check out the statistics from the late 1960s to the early 1980s. What was Tamil Nadu`s economic progress compared to states like Punjab, Haryana, Maharashtra, or Gujarat? Even when the Government of India restricted foreign investment, why was it that Gujarat and Maharashtra prospered and Tamil Nadu was wallowing in (and still wallows in) crapola like declaring Tamil a Classical Language (does your local university offer courses in Tamil now that Tamil is officially a Classical Language?) or raising a statue to mythical Kannagi (who was an ardent supporter of Brahmin superiority if one is to believe the Tamil epic ``Silappathikaram``)?

[why is tamilnadu high on literacy, education and so much becoming detrit that hamidm and urstruly plan to move there?]

The seeds of the automobile industry were sown way back in the 1950s with Standard Motor opening its factory here and ancillary manufacturers opening up shops in industrial estates created by a forward-looking Industries Minister. (Incidentally, this was R. Venkataraman, a Brahmin, later the President of India.) The Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu were famous for politicizing the trade union movement so that if the Communist-led union would settle a strike, then the DMK-led union would stage another strike to extort money from the company. That was the extent of their contribution to industrialization.

The only growth in employment has been in the government sector in Tamil Nadu until recently. Even during the recent election, the major issue was hiring even more employees for the state government who would only be there to rip off the public while spending time drinking coffee and reading rags such as ``Murasoli`` or ``Dinakaran`` (house organs of the DMK).

The ``mistake`` made in refusing brahmins government jobs was conceded by even EV Ramaswamy Naicker who lamented that what with the government jobs with fixed (and meager) salaries being denied them, the Brahmins had gone off into small-scale industries and made more money than before.

The other mistake that was made was the opening of innumerable number of private engineering and medical colleges. Brahmin parents who had become two-income families in the 1970s also limited their families to two children or less in order to provide a good future for their children. They were able to send their children to these private engineering or medical colleges and that is why you still see a good number of brahmins in the software engineering business. Of couse the Masanamuthus pretend they are as good as these hard-working people which was given the lie by a recent incident: when I asked a private university who the best undergraduate computer science students were, the Head of the Department paraded a bunch of students from Bihar but not a single Masanamuthu or Karuppayee from Tamil Nadu!

Even today, check out student populations at IITs, IISc, BITS-Pilani, etc., and see where the talented TamBrahms go for education.

PS. The current official reservation percentage in Tamil Nadu is 69%, higher than the Mandal mandate of 50%. In fact, there is a suit pending in the Supreme Court where the Tamil Nadu government (even under Jayalalitha) is arguing that Tamil Nadu can set its own admission quotas. The 69% quota is official but the real percentage is closer to 90% because if you don`t produce your SC/ST/OBC/MBC certificate, you will be assigned to a private engineering college with huge fees. I know of people who have had to ask for charity to support them at these schools.

In the 1960s, it would be a rare instance for a student to move the High Court to get relief when he could prove that the government violated its own policies in denying him admission. This would usually be a wealthy Brahmin; by the time he is admitted to medical college, it would be in the next year`s batch.

Last year, there were 30,000 engineering seats which were not filled. The number would be something similar this year. The Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu have come up with a scheme to overcome this: the private engineering colleges ran their own admissions exams and set their own criteria for passing!

The government has gone one step further: they abolished the entrance exams altogether, though this was stayed by the High Court. Soon, you will have no exams in the universities but the day you pay four years of tuition, there will be a degree certificate with your name on it (pick from Masanamuthu, Tamil Selvan, Senthamizh Selvi, Karuppaayee, Love King, Love Queen, Love Jewel; others would take a special request and extra time).

PPS. The worst thing is that the Masanamuthus have started naming their daughters Sujata. Let us get one thing very clear: you guys do not belong to a good (su) `jati` so you have no right to such a name. Call them ``Panchavarnam``, meaning the Fifth Varna. That would be appropriate.

Ref pmishra2 #123

[#119 moron-guru

SO now you are back with your bakwaas. You think we dont know the ugly left-wing politics of Shri N. Ram and Khare at the Hindu? We are all aware of their respect for Stalin, Mao, all communist dictatorships, Saddam Hussein.]

Two days ago, there was this headline in ``The Anti-Hindu``. It said ``Dam Topped Off``. One would think that this meant the Narmada Dam has been completed. No, it was the Three Gorges Dam in China that has been completed. Similarly, a week ago, there was a news item about the successful trial run of a mag-lev train. It was also in China.

Chinese accomplishments -- at the cost of millions of lives and livelihoods -- are touted by this left-wing rag while India is consistently derided.

From http://www.irn.org/programs/threeg/resettle.html

[One fundamental problem in assessing the Three Gorges resettlement program is that the official figures appear to be false, and the success stories fabricated. For example, four Sichuan journalists who are assigned to report full–time on the progress of resettlement told me that county officials in Sichuan and Hubei claimed at a conference in January that 200,000 people had already been resettled. If accurate, that number would mean that resettlement was ahead of schedule. But the journalists explained the 200,000 figure was an exaggeration by local officials wishing to impress their superiors. One journalist said that he had traveled extensively in the Three Gorges area, and that the actual figures were generally no more than half the official ones. Even senior officials at the Three Gorges Project Resettlement Bureau, he said, do not believe that 200,000 people have been resettled. Several days after our conversation, a report appeared on the front page of Wanxian Daily in which Qi Lin, the head of the Three Gorges Project Resettlement Bureau, was quoted as saying that only 100,000 people had been resettled so far. The report did not say whether these people had been properly resettled according to the government’s own definition, namely that they must be found a new home, new livelihood and compensation for their losses.]

Fortunately for China, there is no Medha Patkar. If one existed, she would have been carted off to a Labor Re-Education Camp (a nice term for jail), raped, starved and tortured. All the frikkin Commies who have been singing the praises of the Communist International (much like the Musalmans singing the praises of the Ummah) suddenly become extremely conscious of sovereignty issues when asked why they protest dam construction in India but not in China.

As for N. Ram, the man will shamelessly tout anything to save his property. After all, he has pimped a girl in the family to Dayanidhi Maran -- check out who Dayanidhi Maran`s wife is.

#119 moron-guru

SO now you are back with your bakwaas. You think we dont know the ugly left-wing politics of Shri N. Ram and Khare at the Hindu? We are all aware of their respect for Stalin, Mao, all communist dictatorships, Saddam Hussein. In other words, any kind of left-wing dictator is their hero. Of course, they believe that the only problem in india is lack of reservation!!

Anyone with the slightest iota of comon-sense knows that capacity constraints are the main issue in India. We need 10,0000s of teachers, we need huge and better schools and colleges. But why discuss how to create those, right? It may actually take hard work and thought. Much better to have everyone fight about quotas !!

What a pathetic loser you are...

#121 our editor has granted abhishek a platform solely on the basis of ideology, and he is abusing it by posting propaganda. he is not interested in any discussion or debate. dear editor, considering the author does post here, please request the author to participate and not do naraybazi, thanks. if not, his chowk-rating ought to be decreased.

Guruji
Can we discuss the points in Khare`s article one by one? I find the article confused, rambling and definitely incapable of providing any solutions.

Why would 50% reservations be better than indentifying the best candidates amongst the OBC`s/SC/ST and giving them the same opportunities as other people have to compete in the JEE , CAT or whatever competitive exam is there in India now? Why can`t the state that Mr.Khare talks of do that? This is the same state that he says failed to keep out the Naxalites. Now we expect this state to do a better job with reservations? Like the excellent job it did with public sector units.

Lastly this has very litte to do with your article which decried the falling of standards in the Indian educational system. Why would you, who has such a low opinion of the system , want 50% reservations in iit?

It is certainly true that reservation for O.B.Cs. will cause a lot of heart-burning to others. But should the mere fact of this heart burning be allowed to operate as a moral veto against social reform. A lot of heart burning was caused to the British when they left India . It burns the hearts of all whites when the black protest against apartheid in South Africa . When the higher castes constituting less than 20 per cent of the country’s population subjected the rest to all manner of social injustice, it must have caused a lot of heart burning to the lower castes. But now that the lower castes are asking for a modest share of the national cake of power and prestige, a chorus of alarm is being raised on the plea that this will cause heart burning to the ruling elite. Of all the spacious arguments advanced against reservation for backward classes, there is none which beats this one about ‘heart burning’ in sheer sophistry.

Report of the Backward Classes Commission, 1980 (Mandal Commission), First Part, Chapter XIII, pages 57 & 58. Government of India 1980.

Re: # 119

Guruji can you honestly answer a question? Suppose someone very close to your heart, your wife or child may be, is critically ill (God forbid, just for sake of argument) and you take her to hospital where the doctor is someone who got there on the basis of quota and somehow you come to know of it. You don`t know the doctor, how good or bad he is. All you know is that he got there through reservations. Will you feel comfortable knowing this?

Regards

Reservation for OBCs - Lessons from the new intolerance

Harish Khare – The Hindu, 12-04-2006

Whether or not the IIMs and IITs are forced to open their doors a little wider, the new fashionable intolerance exhibited in these last few days should be a sobering experience for all of us.
THESE LAST few days have witnessed a fascinating battle for the control of the public discourse. A handful of newspapers and a couple of English language television channels have done their best to stoke a 1990-type hysteria over the proposed new reservation regime in Central educational institutions.

Television crews have been despatched to find voices of ``merit`` that are aghast at the very idea that institutes of management, presumed bastion of merit and competition, are now sought to be pried open to admit children of the lesser gods. Captains of industry are on record as to how a few hundred seats in management schools will erode India`s competitiveness in this age of globalisation.

A twist has been given to the controversy by casting Union Human Resource Development Minister Arjun Singh as the villain of the piece. All this in the belief that if enough hype is created, the decent man, Manmohan Singh, will intervene and put an end to this ``mischief`` afoot. Even the nice and sincere gentlemen in the Election Commission allowed themselves to be taken in by this elite media noise.

There is little chance of resurrecting the 1990-type hysteria. The reason is simple. The 1990 agitation could be sustained because the largest political party, Congress, lent its support to the anti-Mandal agitation. Rajiv Gandhi`s Congress was peeved at the Raja of Manda making it to the Prime Minister`s chair.

When the V.P. Singh Government opted for the Mandal report, the Congress brought into play all its muscle power to create an illusion of a massive backlash against the reservation regime. Those self-immolations were all paid for by a cynical political party. The V.P. Singh Government had to go not because of the anti-Mandal agitation but because of the intractable intrigues within the Janata Dal. But in popular historical perception, ``Mandal`` is deemed the cause of Mr. Singh`s downfall. Two years later, the same Congress took credit for implementing the Mandal scheme.

2006 is not 1990. The Mandal initiative has helped to change the face of the Indian polity and society. The grammar of entitlement has become part of the language of Indian politics. There can be a debate on how to go about it but all political parties accept the logic and reality of the Constitution (93rd Amendment) Act, 2005. As and when the Human Resource Development Ministry comes up with a Bill commensurate with the 93rd Amendment, Parliament and the country will get to debate the issue anew.

But the 2006 controversy has only reminded one and all of how entrenched social prejudices remain and how deep runs the hostility to change in areas where it matters the most. Suddenly it seems fashionable to speak of ``them`` who now dare want to enter the holy portals of management and technology institutes.

All political systems witness a continuous struggle over societal resources, according to the accepted rules of the game. In India these rules are prescribed in the Constitution but are always reinterpreted according to the distribution of power. As it were, power — political and electoral — has passed into the hands of the less socially and educationally advanced groups.

And it is only a matter of time before the logic of democracy and numbers asserts itself in every sphere of social activity.
Today it is the IIMs and IITs that are sought to meet the demands of social justice, tomorrow it will be the private sector that will be called upon to broad-base its mostly caste-based personnel structures. Those who demand and get, and prosper from the state`s protection cannot remain oblivious to its obligation to engineer some kind of equity.

The crux of our present day dilemma was foreseen many years ago by Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. In the last sitting of the Constituent Assembly, he noted: ``We are going to enter into a life of contradictions. In politics we will have equality and in social and economic life we will have inequality. In politics, we will be recognising the principle of one man-one vote and one vote-one value. In our social and economic life, we shall by reason of our social and economic structure, continue to deny the principle of one man-one value.
How long shall we continue to live this life of contradictions? How long shall we continue to deny equality in our social and economic life? If we continue to deny it for long, we will do so only by putting our political democracy in peril.

We must remove this contradiction at the earlier possible moment or else those who suffer from inequality will blow up the structure of political democracy which this assembly has so laboriously built up.``

Dr. Ambedkar, social justice, egalitarianism, and equity seem obsolete to the influential sections of the Indian society. Our discourse-manufacturers have worked themselves into a comfortable delusion that the ``market`` has made India a vast level-playing field and therefore any suggestion of any kind of affirmative action is a violation of some sacred mantra.

``Reservation`` is deemed one of those devious stratagems these undesirable politicians are forever devising just to keep themselves in power. It is taken as an affront to a new India that thinks of itself as a partner in a cosmopolitan march to prosperity. The unstated claim is that the market has cured India of all its social inequalities and inequities.

Power of the market
The assumption is that the 300-million strong consumerist middle class has sorted out its caste stratifications and is now uniformly and unanimously worshipping on the altar of merit and competence. The curative power of market has melted away social distinctions and disadvantages.

Politics and politicians have failed India and they should not be allowed to dispel the market magic. This middle class, the assumption goes, is capable of propelling India into becoming a super economic power and is smart enough to engage with the global economy on competitive terms. In any case, this middle class need not be hobbled by the burden of the rest of the 700 million and their deprivations.

In the midst of the market euphoria, there is a strong reluctance to see, let alone acknowledge, inequalities. Take for instance the controversy a few months ago over the so-called ``Muslim headcount`` in the armed forces. The voices that raised a din on the Muslim headcount are, more or less, the same kicking up a shindy on ``reservation.``
Last year, for example, only 11 Muslim candidates could make the grade out of the 422 men and women selected for the IAS, IFS, IPS and other Central services.
Of these 11, eight made it in the category of Other Backward Classes (OBC). No one wants to acknowledge the near-systemic marginalisation of the largest minority in the country.

Yet any attempt to even catalogue discrimination and disadvantages faced by the minorities is immediately dubbed anti-merit, anti-progress, and anti-national. As long as a problem is not acknowledged, there will be no obligation to find a solution.

But precisely because the new economy is creating new inequalities in our society, the Indian state and its political instruments are duty-bound to find ways of institutionalising some kind of fairness. This duty has become even more pronounced now that the state has been forced to retreat from many areas of economic activity.

If the politicians were not to address themselves to the aspirations and dreams of the socially disadvantageous groups, the polity and economy would not experience the peace to enjoy the fruits of the eight per cent economic growth.

As it is, vast chunks of the country have already come under the naxalite sway, amenable neither to the state`s coercion nor to the lure of the market. The 2006 reservation controversy will not get resolved easily.
Whether or not the IIMs and IITs are forced to open their doors a little wider, the new fashionable intolerance exhibited in these last few days should be a sobering experience for all of us.
The Constitution is not a convenient document but a compact that the people of India made among themselves. That compact is premised on the promise of an egalitarian social order. The new intolerance is at odds with that promise. Promoters and patrons of the new economy need to realise the implications of this new intolerance

abe harimau, do you think tamilnadu is worse-off as compared to other states who have less reservation than not? stick to real evidence here. why is tamilnadu high on literacy, education and so much becoming detrit that hamidm and urstruly plan to move there?

Considering that we have reservation for the most powerful position in India, I am not surprised at reservations for the Brain-Dead in other vocations.

I am referring to the lock that the Nehru clan has on the Prime Ministership.

The following is making the rounds on the Internet:

I think we should have job reservations in all the fields. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this. Let`s start the reservation with our cricket team. We should have 10 percent reservation for muslims. 30 percent for OBC, SC/ST like that. Cricket rules should be modified accordingly. The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST player. The four hit by an OBC player should be considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player should be counted as 8 runs.

An OBC player scoring 60 runs should be declared as a century. We should influence ICC and make rules so that the pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the 100 meters race, an OBC player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters. There can be reservation in Government jobs also. Let`s recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which are carrying the ministers and politicians (that can really help the country.. )

Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the operations for the ministers and other politicians. (Another way of saving the country..) Let`s be creative and think of ways and means to guide INDIA forward...Let`s show the world that INDIA is a GREAT country. Let`s be proud of being an INDIAN..

May the good breed of politicans like ARJUN SINGH long live...

Re: # 114


the amount of medals, nobels we get based on our talents are not proportionate to our population hence there has to be ``social justice`` and end to such ``discriminatory`` policies.

Hence the Reservation Ministry headed by arjun singh should propose these:

based on our population we should DEMAND around 17% of olympic golds, world trade, Nobels ......... all goodies in the world.

---

also, you are too harsh on arjun. he is just a paltu kutta of the gandhi family. he is just a pawn and is curently dancing to the tune of teh gandhi clan.

given that reservation is a political reality, it will be interesting to see how the society adjusts. IIT/IIMs are a small part of society. assuming a 4 fold increase in higher learning inst over next 20 years, how much will be in private sector where they will steal the faculty from IITs? will those students live in separate dorms? will there be a sharp decline in student quality and graduation rate? what was the experience in the south, where 70% of seats have been reserved?

One last bit on reservations, here is what Andre Betielle mentioned to the prime minister, in his letter of resignation from the Knowledge Commission

`` We can either move forward and create centres of academic excellence or go along with the demands of identity politics based on caste and community, but we cannot do both......``

Here is the link to the full text of the resignation letter.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060522&fname=pbm&sid=2

Actually the link should have been

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm?q=sp&file=.htm

I still feel reservations in higher education is not the right way to go about changing things. There are other methods. Now just playing devil`s advocate, here is a bit from the other side. It caught my eye as I was looking up antihypochrist`s posting. Brahmins are also finding it difficult .

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=451113

The only interesting question about education in india is how to expand it FAST.

How can we ensure that ALL elementary schools are effective?

Can we empower panchayat/neighborhood groups to check every week?

How can we ensure that kids in rural areas stay thru at least 6th or 8th standard?

Can we give a cash payment for every girl who finishes 8th standard?

Can we promise that if a girl completes high school she will be given at least
Rs. 10,000 for marriage/further education/any other expense?

How can we make sure that teachers actually come to school everyday?

How can we make sure that each schooll has some supplies and books for students?

How can we train better teachers and keep them in the teaching profession?

How can we expand high schools, say 4X, in the next 5 years?

How can we double colleges and universities in next 10 years?

NONE OF THIS IS OF ANY INTEREST TO LOSERS LIKE ABHISHEK BEHL. None of this is of interest to any left-wing communist moron ``progressive`` thinkers. THEY HAVE ZERO
INTEREST IN EDUCATION. Their only interest is in showing off words like ``fascist brahmin`` or ``marxist analysis`` or some other stupidity.

THIS IS THE REAL TRAGEDY OF THIS SITUATION.

Re: # 108 by pmishra2

Exactly. And for this we need people who take active interest in school education instead of controlling higher education/IIT/IIMs etc. These higher education centres are doing more or less fine. They should be left alone. What we desperately need is more schools, more teachers, more attendance. Add to this expansion of police force and low-level judiciary for improvement of law and order, and more basic medicare and sanitation personnel.

OK, now even the residents of Pakistan Occupied Kashmir seek reservations in IITs and IIMs.... Join the party.

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=451113

This pontificating disease afflicts a large number of Indian politicians, and writers. This Behl dude has got no frikkin` clue as to what truly is wrong about the Indian educational system. This article is at best a hodge-podge brain dump of his. His interacts also betray his insincerity, and bias loaded against the meritocracy. Shame on people like him.

#102 brain-dead-ji

Who is doing the pontification here? I have asked you 25 questions in #27 about improving educational system in India. You have not answered and have no interest in these questions or any serious discussion.

You think that india can make progress by shouting ``fascist brahmin``. ``dalits are oppressed`` and by blaming some lazy teachers in some colleges??? This is your vision for progress?

During the past year, I have written 20 ``progressive`` or ``dalit`` organizations offering to raise $10,000 per year to support educational programs for deserving youth. NOT A SINGLE ORGANIZATION HAS ANSWERED!! They are all busy being ``progressive`` and having demonstrations!!

The complete disinterest of so-called ``progressives`` in actually doing the work of educating kids, ensuring that more students finish high school and compete for college is stunning. And this at a time when we should trying to double and triple the number and size of our schools and institutions.

Only groups like Christians, RSS, RK Mission, other religous groups, NGOs are actually trying to improve things on the ground.

And yet these lafanga leftists want to give us advice on progress !

Well i am answering to all the questions put forth by you guys and i have also to speak on behalf of people, who are not able to join this virtual bandwagon.

Mishra ji it very easy to pontificate, when you are on the other side of the fence which has only indulged in all out exploitation.
Before this reservation issue why did not you call for remong poverty, cateism and things like that.

When caste system was good for Brahmins than they vouched for it, now when it hurting them, they want to give up caste.
What a travesty.

Re: # 102 Mineguruji

Dear Sir, how do you know whether anyone here called for removing poverty etc., or not?

Agreed that there is and was a lot of tyranny, but how do you solve it. The basic question is : If caste system is the culprit but it is permanent (as you said), then what do you do about it?

Regards

Re: # 102


with your twisted logic: casteism is good as long as it is directed against brahmins.

similar to: racism is good as long as it is directed towards whites...


you are a great ``intellectual`` indeed, i just took a little while to understand your sermons.

just wish india had a lot more of ``great minds`` like you...

anyway, why don`t you quit your job and ``reserve`` it for some unemployed dalit/obc?

this half-baked article is on the FP only due to editorial choice. the author also seems to be a propagandist and and not interested in a discussion.

#96 mineguruji the moron writes:

[quote]
Poverty is no problem in India
[quote]

I think this statement summarizes your mental state. 400 million people in india live on less that 50 rupees a day, and there is no poverty in india??? I thought you were just an idiot but I now see that you are a stupid liar as well. Or maybe you are mentally ill?

[quote]
Even in Western countries upper caste people have their separate temples, gurdwaras to which Dalits are not allowed
[quote]

This is an outrageous lies. I have lived in western countries for 20 years and I have never heard or seen such a situation. I challenge you to give even ONE news report or eyewitness account of such disgusting behavior. Shame on liars like behl !! Shame ! Shame !

It is clear you have ZERO interest in solving the problem of educating all indians, especially those from deprived backgrounds. You have no interest in any constructive change. You do not have the guts to reply to my message #27.

I am sorry I called you bevakoof. It is an insult to the word which deserves better use.

Re: # 98

behl:

I thought that we were discussing about reservation in education/jobs on the basis of caste not merit and its implications for the country and the society at large. abuse of lower castes across the country is not false and has to be corrected. But how is it related to reserving upto 50% seats in education and jobs to the undeserved, at the expense of the others who have worked hard towards it?

you are jumping from one topic to another without understanding and resolving the first one

The problem is with the reds trying to `politicize` everything............including `merit`............the idea of merit in science is absolutely clear............ either you can solve a problem or you cannot solve a problem.........this is no cockabull story of whose `interpretation` of hostprical materialism is `better` in a political science paper..............either your theory predicts or does not predict............your sum is either correct or incorrect....................you can evaluate a maths paper on the basis of `merit` of the skills of the student who has solved a question paper............you cannot play `politics` with it......yes but you can do that with any humanities paper..............a CPM stalinist would evaluate the same political science answer sheet drastically differently from that of a khaki knickerwala..................

No ......for a CPM card holder every bit of this universe is steeped in politics which is manipulated by those in control of the means of production..........just as an Islamist sees conspiracies in every bit of this universe by those belonging to different faiths................
so both see politics and conspiracies in natural sciences and `merit` does not exist for them.......for them it is all Thomas Kuhn and his ever encompassing paradigmatic ideologies controlled by the elites............there is NO OBJECTIVITY...............ergo there cannot be a `merit` that can be sen in isolation of the social life........ergo religious prejudices and caste prejudices make 20/100 equally `meritorious` to 90/100 in a mathematics paper...............

this is the history of obfuscation that we see.........I know that these CPM card holders are planning to start their compulsary pension plan by the private enterprise........I do not want paprasites sitting on my throat and threatening to close my concern if I do not give in to their demand for a `better` pension plan......I would prefer to close the concern and exit than have these pervert comrades shouting slogans while I worry about getting the next business........I would also suggest to all the Indians to think of a viable exit plan for their concerns in view of the certain reservation in the private sector with no possibility of termination of the incompetetnt because `merit` is all politicized.................

Respected sirs,
Behl Bewakoof has not gone anywhere and is ready to face the entire opposition single handedly. This article may lack tight editing and may have some mistakes but it has succeeded in touching your nerves.


I would ask to know you that when the Dalits are boycotted in Punjab why no other ``poor`` and landless Jat comes out in solidarity?
A poor Jat is also a labourer like the Dalit. But why he is not showing his ``class`` solidarity with his poor Dalit colleague? A poor Brahmin or other upper caste man never prevents an upper caste trying to rape a Dalit woman. Nor does he prevent a Dalit woman being paraded naked in the village.
We have no instance of any ``poor Brahmin`` or upper caste ``poor`` subjected to any atrocity in Punjab villages.
Naked woman: During elections, Brahmins and other upper caste ``poor`` do not sell their votes. Neither are they blocked from voting. No poor upper caste woman throughout India is made naked and ordered to dance in village streets in the presence of her father, mother, sons, daughters and other relatives.

This great credit is reserved only for the Dalit woman. Is there any case of burning the houses of upper caste poor? It is the upper caste poor who are employed to burn the houses of Dalits. Dalits all over India are prohibited from taking water from common well and taps.
In coastal Andhra cyclone in which thousands died, only the Dalit bodies were not touched. Mother Teresa`s Sisters came to do the job. Even in Western countries upper caste people have their separate temples, gurdwaras to which Dalits are not allowed. Such is the Hindu hatred of Dalits.
Poverty no problem: In ``Hindu India`` poverty is not a problem. It does not create any hate. It is caste which creates hate not poverty. From birth to death Dalits are hated. Even India`s richest Dalit —Jagjivan Ram —was not allowed to be buried in Delhi.
Upper caste poor get equal status in all socio-religious issues. But the Dalit, even if he is an IAS, IPS official, is a third class person. A rich Dalit is also hated for his wealth, health and official status. He is badly abused using his caste name. Dirtiest words are used to hate a Dalit even if he is rich.

Poverty is no problem in India. No poor Brahmin has revolted against a rich Brahmin. In a Brahmin institution, its owner, always employs poor Brahmins, his own jatwalas, to see that the employees do not revolt. There is no trade union of poor Brahmins against the rich Brahmin employer.

Class solidarity: There is nothing like class solidarity of the poor. In Bombay textile mills, upper caste mill workers went on strike against their own Dalit colleagues employed in the weaving section.
A ``class`` is temporary but ``caste`` is permanent. There is no promotion or demotion in a caste society.
Poverty is not permanent. It can change any time as many Dalit-Backwards have become rich in the last 30 years.
But caste is permanent. It never changes. A born Dalit dies as Dalit even if he becomes rich. In every village of Punjab Dalits have their separate burials. Caste fixes your place — not poverty.
In ``Hindu India`` poverty yardstick makes no sense.

I hope my arguments will make sense. The problem lies in the fact that we have lesser resources, lesser men on the top and negligible presence in the media and that is why it appears that you guys are justified.

Re: # 96

Most Respected Guruji

Your argument makes only half-sense. Your observations are correct but the conclusions are wrong.

The plight of dalits that you described is entirely true. But reservation is not helping those farm labourers and those victims of rape. Also, if caste is permanent, then how do you propose to eliminate casteism through reservations? Looks like the entire thing is an exercise in futility. Or may be you want to keep it permanent. Also, when some dalits change their economic status through reservations, shouldn`t they step away and give the same chance to other dalits? You only cry about the problem, but what is the solution?

Regards

Where is this bevakoof behl? Or hs he just generated this gibberish for us to get excited about? I am still waiting on him to answer the questions I had in #27.

Abhishek,
Why is reservation necessary? Because SC/ST/OBC/poors do not have enough resources similar to that of rich people. Then why should reservation be based on caste and not on poverty. You say that poverty should not be used as yard stick in India but finally its money that is going to help you to buy food.
India should have reservation based on family income.
Indian politician are trying to follow divide and rule policy to continually warming their seats in Vidhan/Lok/Rajya sabha.
A real politician would try to get 22 % of SC/ST and 22 % of OBC in 1st standard. He should allocated resources to make sure that 22 % of SC/ST and 22 % of OBC are first class when they pass their 8th, 10th & 12th standard. If that happens and then SC/ST/OBC should use the quotas.
Another solution can be to increase the minium passing requirement from 35% to 65% or even 75%. And then maybe poor SC/ST/OBC can used reservations.
Third solution can be that if one should put limit for the times he or she uses reservation per family. This will also try to get more and more SC/ST/OBC to use reservation and take out people who use it continously even though they are welltodo.

Dear Mr. Behl

There can`t be any denying that casteism is a bane of Indian society, although its extent and rigidity varies across regions, economic/religious groups etc. I also agree that a lot of extra support is required for those who are disadvantaged solely for the reason of their birth. But it is also necessary to review how the reservation policy is providing that support, how it has been implemented since independence, whether it has produced desired effects, and what changes might be necessary. But sadly, this is not being done. The purpose of reservations is not a tit-for-tat against upper caste Hindu oppressors or their progeny. The purpose, in my opinion, is to support these disadvantaged sections so that within a few generations time they could be at least educationally and financially be at an equal footing with others.

This purpose can be achieved only by expanding elementary and high school education, establishing more schools for vocational training, and by providing special incentives to poor kids (make it very special for dalits/SC/ST) for attendance and good performance.

Reservations in higher education/jobs may be provided, but the bars need to be raised.
Just expanding the scope of reservations will benefit only the so called creamy layer, keeping them crippled and dependent on quotas. On the other hand, those who don`t have any means to send their children even to a primary school, will remain neglected forever.

Regards

#91 you digress?

#87 by jang

[who should i believe? ]

I think you should believe your pedophile-prophet, who told you that the earth is flat and the mountains act as paperweights to hold it down during earthquakes. You muslims are reading this kind of knowledgeable stuff in the Koran for the last 1400 years, and it`s still not enough. Keep reading that stuff. That`s the stuff for your islamic brain. All you have to give in return for all this knowledge is your foreskin.

#89 i am learning a lot here from panditjee and its free...i dont have to give my thumb or anything ;-)

apparently navjot siddu has joined the agitation in dilli (in his personal capacity and not representing the BJP) as a show of support he was reciting poetry...this will be covered by all TV channels for sure LOL. what is interesting to note that the BJP is not showing any support for the agitation against reservation.

#86 panditji, so the argument is what, since the numerals were in brahmi lipi, brahmans invented the decimal system? pls help me connect the dots here. and should we discount the jaina math as non-brahmin? the 0 was invented by merchants to keep ``khata`` ..double entry book-keeping, credit debit etc. (this is what aggarwals and guptas tell me). who should i believe?

Re: # 87
Oye Jang, chhod de jang, you can take a horse to water but he will surely drive you to drink?-)

#84 by jang

[these are brahmin inventions? decimal system is most likley a bania, astology i grant you. phylosophy is never an invention. ]

Yes. Are you that ignorant?

The decimal number system or the base 10 system is the model on which base 2 (binary), base 16 (hexadecimal), base 8(octal) etc. numbering systems were developed.

The Brahmins came up with the concepts of zero and infinity. Both of which were beyond your European masters and the Chinese, and the Islamic scholars (the Arabs learnt it from the Indians).

Educate yourself: http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/Timelines/TimelineA.html

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/PrintHT/Indian_mathematics.html

This is a good beginning. There`s lot more stuff on Brahmins.

#78 {Q: How did the Brahmins invent the decimal number system, astrology, philosophy?}

these are brahmin inventions? decimal system is most likley a bania, astology i grant you. phylosophy is never an invention.

#82 by aisha_sarwari

And your point is what?

#82 by aisha_sarwari

And your point is what?

FYI

---

I am surprised that a section of civil society and upper caste is standing behind the anti reservation move. They do not consider that as per data available 86% post of governance, execution and all important portfolios even in politics are occupied by the representatives of 15 % upper caste people. From primary school to higher education institutions, medical and engineering collage every where all positions are filled by upper caste people. That’s why all anti reservation move is getting out of turn visibility. They could hamper the whole system because they are in majority in all this higher places including the so called biased national media which is basically representing this section only.
Then who are the responsible for non implementation of reservation policy? Data of fifty years are proving that non implementation of the reservation is the basic reason that disadvantage communities are still out of the developmental process.
Why they are ignoring the historical fact that there past generation has denied rights of 85% people of this country as human being. Even Dalits are still treated as untouchable. Every day they are suffering caste related atrocities and discrimination.
My major point is that till now no one has bringing any authentic research report for the support of there anti reservation move. Which has claimed that peoples from reserve category are inefficient or less capable in comparison of other general category people?

Second none of government- none government institution, industrial house or MNC has not mention on there any reports that because of reserve category people, the performance or result of the organization/ institute has declined.
You just go to the employment exchange and see the huge line of merit candidates from reserve category with all skills but they are not getting jobs. The other side million of jobs is unfilled from reserved category. Who are responsible?
We request to all upper caste people and civil society that if you want to competit the world then it is need of the time to bring all communities and people up to that level where they also feel equality means equal opportunity, equal resource and un- discriminatory mind set. Then only one can claim merit. And definitely it will different then today.
We need that upper caste have to change it’s mind set and discriminative attitude towards historical disadvantage communities like Dalits, Tribals and OBC’s etc.
ARUN KHOTE
Secretary-Media
National Campaign On Dalit Human Rights-NCDHR
8/1,2nd Floor, South Patel Nagar
NEW DELHI-110008 ( INDIA)
Ph/ Fax-91#11-25842249/ 25842250
Mobile:0-9350183802
Email: ncdhr@vsnl.net
arun@ncdhr.org
Website: dalits.org

Not once has this dude answered even one of the questions that have been raised here. Instead, it is some article or letters supporting his POV or outright gibberish in the form of devious insinuations, which leads me to the conclusion that he is a harcore JNTU-jholawalla. The hallmark of this species is that they fanatically support any ideology that is in the Commie manifesto without pausing to consider the pros and cons of that position. Another interactor, Parthab was of a similar mould.

Re: 78 by myself

I meant astronomy, not astrology.

Poverty is no problem in India. No poor Brahmin has revolted against a rich Brahmin. In a Brahmin institution, its owner, always employs poor Brahmins, his own jatwalas, to see that the employees do not revolt. There is no trade union of poor Brahmins against the rich Brahmin employer.

Class solidarity: There is nothing like class solidarity of the poor. In Bombay textile mills, upper caste mill workers went on strike against their own Dalit colleagues employed in the weaving section.

A ``class`` is temporary but ``caste`` is permanent. There is no promotion or demotion in a caste society.

Poverty is not permanent. It can change any time as many Dalit-Backwards have become rich in the last 30 years.

But caste is permanent. It never changes. A born Dalit dies as Dalit even if he becomes rich. In every village of Punjab Dalits have their separate burials. Caste fixes your place — not poverty.

In ``Hindu India`` poverty yardstick makes no sense.

Re: # 79

behl:

``But caste is permanent. It never changes. A born Dalit dies as Dalit even if he becomes rich. ``

what is your problem man.

do you want quota so that a dalit gets better oppurtunities and has a better lifestyle (by becoming rich)
or
you want him to become a ``brahmin`` so that he won`t die a ``dalit`` irrespective of a quota system.


anyways, current agitation is providing more to OBC`s than to dalits, if you care to now whats happening around.


i thought india wants to be a casteless society, who do you get there without harping on castes at every stage of your life??????

Re: # 79



I think the reds have this ``hidden`` agenda of pushing their legislation for `reservation` in the private corporate world .............. they tried their best in WB to kill `Capitalism`.........and they only succeeded in destroying the WB economy..........now the left wants to do the same with the indian Corporate world........it is time the corporate world woke up and saw their game plan........since I have interacted with them closely these bunch of good for nothing `intellectuals`, who can be bought for a bottle of rum, have started dreaming of throttling the Indian `Capitalism` in order to turn their egotistical perverse fantasy into a reality.......... I would like to warn every body that they need to do something before they start pushing legislation to ensure their comrade`s good for nothing sons and daughters get a pension plan in your company for doing nothing........... I am already thinking of winding up my concern before they start forcing less than qualified quota degree holders in my concern..........I would ask every one else to start packing their bags and planning to move to some other country (like Pakistan) where atleast you can be assured that no politician can `force` me through state legislation to start a pension plan for their party members...........

#76 by jang

[#75 actually you have a great argument against reservatoins..look at brahmins. years of reservation policy and what do they have to show for it? poverty, backwardness and famous scientists countable on fingers of two hands. LOL.]


Yes. Quite unlike you muslims in India. Hundreds of years of reservation policy under successive Muslim rulers and what do you have to show for it? Wealth, progressiveness and famous scientists coming out of the woodwork.




[perfact argument against reservations..not good for the society, not good for the community (in the long term).]


Here`s some conclusions reached by following this genius`s secular/progressive/empathetic line of logic:

Q: Why are the blacks in Africa backward today?

Ans: Lack of a quota system. Oppression by non-blacks.

Q: Why are the Australian Bushmen backward today?

Ans: No quota system. Oppression by non-bushmen.

Q: How did the Europeans make scientific discoveries?

Ans. Because they had the quota system working for them.

Q. Why have the Chinese had advanced civilizations for thousands of years?

Ans. Quotas. What else?

Q: How did the Brahmins invent the decimal number system, astrology, philosophy?

Ans. The quota system, of course.

Ref mineguruji #64

[i m very pleased with a suggestion that all OBC/ST patients should go to OBC/ST doctors...]

ope, I said the politicians should be forced to go to the OBC/SC/ST doctors.

[.....that will be extremely good because unlike the open category doctor who comes in merit by leaking papers and flexing their financial muscles, the OBC doctor is here through hard earned merit, ...]

Yes, merit is (according to you) where OBC+ 20% of the marks = Forward Castes + 100% of the marks. If they are here on merit, why is there a need to declare your OBC status on the application?

#75 actually you have a great argument against reservatoins..look at brahmins. years of reservation policy and what do they have to show for it? poverty, backwardness and famous scientists countable on fingers of two hands. LOL. perfact argument against reservations..not good for the society, not good for the community (in the long term).

#74 by jang

[#74 pao lago panditji,

what i am trying to saty is brahmins indeed have achived a lot, and its due to the affirmative action afforded to them by the society (am i claim it was to some extent forced by the rigitdity of caste system). in the light of this, i fail to see any inherent greatness of brahmins in the fields of babu-giri, munshi-giri and pathshala master-giri. ]


Your statement

``what i am trying to saty is brahmins indeed have achived a lot``

contradicts the following statement you made earlier:

``only if such a clever invention like a ``screw`` was in vented by our mentally endowed brhamins, i would be with you, begging the planning commision to start a brahmin stud-farm. alas, all i see is great treatise like vishnu-sahastranam..while callin god names, thousands of them is not a bad thing, one screw is far more effective in holding planks together.. ``

So no, that is not what you were trying to say AT ALL.


But anyway, coming to this latest post of yours....

The point of this discussion is not about the greatness of Brahmins, but about the OBCs, SCs and STs achieving great things.

There are many poor Brahmins (and Brahmins have traditionally not been rich), and there are many rich OBCs, SCa and STs in India today. The OBCs/SCs/STs need to achieve great things (with all the reservations and quotas accorded to them) for perceptions to change. And the achievements have to come in the form of great scientists, mathematicians etc. - they have to produce increasing numbers of world-class scientists and mathematicians, instead of graduates in History, Poiltical Science and Social Studies. Just whining and accusing the Brahmins and getting near 100% quotas won`t change anything. Except for destroying India`s competitiveness globally.


That is, and has always been, my point. Is this too hard to comprehend?

#74 pao lago panditji,

what i am trying to saty is brahmins indeed have achived a lot, and its due to the affirmative action afforded to them by the society (am i claim it was to some extent forced by the rigitdity of caste system). in the light of this, i fail to see any inherent greatness of brahmins in the fields of babu-giri, munshi-giri and pathshala master-giri.

If by reading books one could become a doctor or an engineer or a historian than what is the need of the Universities and their highly paid teachers.

a common dillemma in Asia.for a couple of exception in the Far East..
we have been bellowing for reform of Democracy but not for the reform of the voter..

Still a long way to go..

#71 by jang

[#62 my threaded brother, no such luck. only if such a clever invention like a ``screw`` was in vented by our mentally endowed brhamins, i would be with you, begging the planning commision to start a brahmin stud-farm. alas, all i see is great treatise like vishnu-sahastranam..while callin god names, thousands of them is not a bad thing, one screw is far more effective in holding planks together.. i share your respect for the screw thread]

Just because you are under-educated does not diminish the achievements of the Brahmins. Instead of shooting your mouth off, do some research first.


[i personally think reservations are bad idea, but is a necessary evil.]

What do you think of 100% reservations, genius?


[in india a lot of hiring would happen via biradari system and there would be no chance for out-of biradari to get in.]

Do you have any statistics? There is so much quota in the government, that they cannot find qualified SC/STs to fill all the positions.


[look at the earlier ``private`` banks in bombay, and they were very clearly known as parsee banks or karwari banks etc. reservations is like democracy, ugly but what is the alternative?]

The alternative is for OBCs/SCs/STs to start their own banks and discriminate back. But that would require honest effort. Handouts are much easier. The lefties are always ready to lend their support.


Ideally, reservations should be reserved to elementary and high schools. If they have the money to graduate from elementary and high schools (and MANY OBCs, SCs, STs are much more affluent than MANY brahmins), they should use that opportunity to compete with others for undergraduate and postgraduate education. ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. SHOW ME ONE OBC/SC/ST who has scored high on a competitive exam who has been denied a job.

It is pathetic to see seemingly educated people falling for Congress Party votebank politics.

#62 my threaded brother, no such luck. only if such a clever invention like a ``screw`` was in vented by our mentally endowed brhamins, i would be with you, begging the planning commision to start a brahmin stud-farm. alas, all i see is great treatise like vishnu-sahastranam..while callin god names, thousands of them is not a bad thing, one screw is far more effective in holding planks together.. i share your respect for the screw thread, but no i was refering to the one hanging on the ear..one with the brahma knot ;-)

i personally think reservations are bad idea, but is a necessary evil. in india a lot of hiring would happen via biradari system and there would be no chance for out-of biradari to get in. look at the earlier ``private`` banks in bombay, and they were very clearly known as parsee banks or karwari banks etc. reservations is like democracy, ugly but what is the alternative?

#60 by swarrier

[I`m at home now with Mr. Jared Diamond and his Guns and his Germs and Steel. By the way my copy is from the first American publishing in 1998 (funnily it was first published in the UK in 1997) so I had forgotten most of it. Thanks for helping me blow the dust of the covers.

If you will turn to page 218 (Blueprints and borrowed letters) you will see in the middle of the page (assuming you have a similar edition to mine) the statement
`` The two indisputably independent methods of writing were achieved by the Sumerians of Mesopotamia somewhat before 3000 B.C.and by Mexican Indians before 600 B.C. Egyptian writing of 3000 B.C. and Chinese writing (by 1300 B.C.) may also have arisen independently. Probably all other people s who have developed writing systems since then have borrowed, adapted or at least been inspired by existing systems.``

Further on page 227 ``Semites (Arabs) familiar with Egyptian hieroglyphics did begin to experiment with that logical step.`` ( meaning move from signs and logograms to consonantal alphabet, and so you see the Semites are considered to be a different race).

Then on 227 again last paragraph `` A far more important line evolved by way of the Aramaic alphabet , used for official documents of the Persian Empire, into the mordern Arabic, Hebrew, Indian. and South East Asian alphabets``

So you see I did read the book a long time ago.]


None of what you said above proves that. You could have grabbed a copy from somewhere on your way home.



[Only approaching senility makes me forget large parts of it. I shall not post anymore on this topic.]

Wise move. Discretion is the better part of valor.


AND YOU HAVE CRAFTILY AVOIDED ANSWERING THE QUESTION I RAISED IN MY POST # 58:


Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?

I`ll be waiting for your response.

Re: # 67
[Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?]

My answer , you can`t see forest because of the trees. Since your premise is that I have not read the book there is nothing I can argue about. I shall take the same tack. You cannot even understand anything in this book that you claim to have read,.

Re: # 67
[Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?]

My answer , you can`t see forest because of the trees. Since your premise is that I have not read the book there is nothing I can argue about. I shall take the same tack. You cannot even understand anything in this book that you claim to have read,.

#59 by swarrier


[I wasn`t talking about the hard sciences here. The two sentences were juxtaposed too closely. I was referring to your post as a whole. It reeks of nothing but a smug sense of superiority.]

One of the cardinal rules about debating on point is to stick to issues, and not make things personal or make ad-hominem attacks. Somehow I feel that my message has struck too close to home. Either you are a lefty ``intellectual`` or belong to the OBCs/SCs/STs.

It takes the deletion of only one letter in the genetic alphabet soup to reduce any of us to an incoherent and disfigured cripple. It is only an idiot who is smug about the intelligence (if any) that he is blessed with, or looks, or physical skills. He didn`t earn any of it. The best most he can do is feel happy about it.

What you interpreted as smugness is in reality irritation - that these under-achievers, who bear the lion`s share of the blame for their own situation today, should consistently and stridently keep moaning and groaning and complaining. Even more irritating are the pseudo-intellectuals of the liberal left who have joined the bandwagon of the dalitstan freakoids, the SC/ST whiners, and other assorted nutcases. People like this Abhishek Behl are a prime example.

Nothing will really change until these backward societies decide to take some responsibility and realize that nothing is going to change overnight. There needs to be a sea-change in their attitudes - less accusing and whining, and more effort and self-evaluation.



Now coming to your responses:

[Ancient egyptians are not necessarily considered a part of the semitic race. Only the Copts consider themselves descendants of the ancient egyptians and they feel they are not Arabic. ]

Regardless. The point is that anthropologists consider ancient Egypt as a melting pot - where various african and middle-eastern races mixed for thousands of years. (YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>) So heiroglyphics is not an ``black african`` invention.


[Your original post said 1900 for the Vai script. We won`t go into your got it routine here. ]

Whether I mistyped 1800 as 1900 is unimportant. I was still in the right half of the milennium. (YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>)The point is that for THOUSANDS OF YEARS there was no written script in black Africa, IN SPITE OF CONTINUOUS INTERACTIONS WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD.


[Nope following the same line of reasoning the Dark continent really came into contact with other civilisations around the 1700`s. 100 years is not too long for intelligent people to fashion a script. ]

(YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>) No, they had continuous interactions with the outside world, especially through the Middle East, for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.


[You asked for one scientist. I gave you one. ]

(YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH =>) But not a really famous one.


[Repeating it loud and often doesn`t change anything. I thought going of at tangents was what you used to accuse other people of. My reply still remains the same. Your original post is prejudiced. Everything else is an attempt to refute what I wrote and justify your bits by hedging about.]

I think any perceptive reader would realize who it is who is ``hedging about`` here. Trying a ``gotcha`` on a ``1800/1900`` typo while ignoring the main point is what everybodyt can make out.


[Stephen Jay Gould knew about George Washington Carver. He`s good enough for me.]

Good enough for you maybe. It figures.


[Jagdish Chandra Bose is known to Indians. And he was a great scientist no doubt. But he`s not exactly known to the hoi polloi. Besides I thought the argument was about being a respected scientist. Not whether the man in the street knew anything about you.]

My typo - I meant Satyendra Nath Bose. But Jagadish Chandra Bose should be just as famous. He, not Marconi, was the original inventor of radio.


[Tell me what does the man in the street know about Sankara, or De Morgan. ]

Just because the man on the street does not know about Sankara or De Morgan, does not mean that George Washington Carver deserves to be a really famous scientist. He was a wonderful human being and no doubt had a way with peanuts, but his contributions to science are not very important(YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH).


[In your second post my friend, after you put both your feet in your mouth squarely in the first post. You just wanted one scientist. It`s not really tiring to me to say this.]

Acually you put your feet in your mouth. Consider:

1) You have not named ONE scientist who made important contributions to science beyond George Washington Carver and his peanuts. (And even if you did - that`s only one for so many blacks - which proves my point really).

2) You did a gotcha on my saying 1900s when it should have been 1800s - but even if it is 1800s my point is valid EXACTLY the same - no written script for thousands of years until RECENTLY.

etc. etc.


[Hmmm I would of course have Stephen Hawking be the Prime Minister of England. Most other people would not think so. Horses for courses , I think you have heard of the term. To me Mozart, is as much a genius as Descartes. I would hire him for a director`s post at a conservatory. Not a scientist. Intelligence comes in various forms. I`m sure Alan Turing would have done a better job being Churchill, and vice versa. Yes, No, maybe? ]

Intelligence comes in various forms. Just because my father did not study science does not make him an unintelligent person. BUT HE WAS CAPABLE OF DOING EQUALLY WELL IN SCIENCE. He is a Brahmin, and Brahmins have demonstrated that they are capable of excelling in the sciences as well, many times over. The OBCs, SCs and STs MUST DEMONSTRATE THIS CAPABILITY AS WELL BY EXCELLING IN HARD SCIENCES. THAT, AND NOTHING ELSE, IS GOING TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS. Liberal commies can keep whining till the cows come home, but perceptions won`t change otherwise.


[I`m simply against tarring entire sections of society with one brush.

I`m sorry, but that alone is not going to make you look like an intellectual.



By the way, what`s your full name? (just curious)

In the present era of globalization, poverty places an important role in countries GDP. So for the betterment of our society we need reservations. Reservations in our country are not used for changing SC/ST and OBCs into upper caste.

But to benefit the backward class economically. Reservations in India change with respect to each province. The steady growth of our nation reduced poverty from 36% to 26%. But still approximately 260 million people of our nation are to be economically up lifted. This can only be done through reservation. When we compare our economical scenario in our country 40% of the population gives 55% of GDP. (i.e. four southern states and two western states) and people below poverty line are marginally less when compared to rest of the country in this region.
These six states have almost 50% seats reserved for SC/ST/Backward class. So following this example let us have 49.5% seats reserved in rest of the country. If we want to see India as developed country we need reservations at least for next decade.

Comments by: ravikr1980 Posted on NDTV

i m very pleased with a suggestion that all OBC/ST patients should go to OBC/ST doctors...that will be extremely good because unlike the open category doctor who comes in merit by leaking papers and flexing their financial muscles, the OBC doctor is here through hard earned merit, whats wrong if the govt compensates the wrong doings of open castes with reservations, and mind you OBCs are the majority of this nation 35 % population, if they decide to isolate you from the society you 5% will be forced to beg.

The OBCs have over years contributed more to this nation protecting lazy upper brahmins, who used to be patrons at the courts of these fighter class kings, these open classess have managed to become rich by licking the shoes of british, only lack of oppurtunity has caussed setback to the obcs and SC/STs, and wait till they monopolise this nation once again.
BY amitadeshpande

---

On NDTV

Ref jang #55

[ajeya and harimau, my dear threaded brothers,]

Is that thing about being threaded a sly reference to the fact that we are accused of ``screw``ing the general population? ;)

Ref swarrier #60

[...I will save my typing for castigating Mr.Behl if I can think of something intelligent to say.]

You really mean if HE has something intelligent to say, which is highly doubtful.

Re: # 62
Harimau
I agree with you. I don`t think this article is quite the goods.

K_abcd
I`m not left or intellectual or OBC/SC/ST or any DLA or TLA. Just somebody who didn`t agree with your original post. My full name is there for you to see. I don`t have a nick. What`s yours?
Lastly I`m bored with this verbal jousting. So if you are personally offended by anything in any of my previous mails I apologise. If you want to feel you have won the argument that is your prerogative.

Cheers.
Sadanand

India is populated by over 3000 endogamous groups. These are people who have intermarried among themselves over centuries and have clearly definable cultures and traditions. Many of these groups are migrants, from either outside India or migrated within India.

Now it is exceedingly improbable (probability approaching zero) that all these groups have exactly the same talents on parameters that are valued in present day technological, knowledge driven. Some of these subgroups have done exceedingly well (parsis, iyers, bhargavas, for example.. its likely that some of the so-called OBC groups figure here) in the knowledge driven economy. It is highly likely that they do have an advantage in both genetics and memetics, accrued over centuries of intermarriage and cultural formation (there are academic papers that suggest that genetic advantages can happen just in the span of centuries). Consequently they will be over-represented in highly selective institutions (just like the Ashkenazi Jews in science and tech) because the normal distribution favors groups who have some overall advantage on the extremes.

By the same token the intellectual capital (probably more than 90%) is probably concentrated in 10% of the population. And guess what: these 10% are not representative of the general population. Quotas or reservations will only make the talented folks seek opportunities elsewhere. Also the private sector will come to play an increasing role in education (as they are doing) and quotas really wont matter in the end. As others have said, primary and secondary education are much more dire straits and this is the place that can benefit many more people from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Maybe Pakistan can open institutes without reservations and hire top class Indian faculty and attract Indian students? I am half serious but it could happen, who knows ?

Those readers here who are capable of following a somewhat technical argument about the distribution of scientific talent can see this paper

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It is a widely held belief, even among senior people in the government, that India is a country with vast human resources and that even if about 10% goes abroad after higher qualifications, it would not make a dent in the country`s total productive potential. Implied
in this argument is the assumption that if 10% of the human resources goes abroad, it would take away only 10% of the intellectual energy in the population. Is there any scientific basis for this? If a scientific, or a mathematical model were to be sought for this, how should this be done? In this article, based on some well-known power-law models used in complex systems like ecology, economics, scientometrics and seismology, one can argue through a soft mathematical model that a small per cent of the cream at the top can
take away a disproportionately large amount of intellectual resources.

---

A soft mathematical model for brain drain for the complete article.

Krishna_abcd
I`m at home now with Mr. Jared Diamond and his Guns and his Germs and Steel. By the way my copy is from the first American publishing in 1998 (funnily it was first published in the UK in 1997) so I had forgotten most of it. Thanks for helping me blow the dust of the covers.

If you will turn to page 218 (Blueprints and borrowed letters) you will see in the middle of the page (assuming you have a similar edition to mine) the statement
`` The two indisputably independent methods of writing were achieved by the Sumerians of Mesopotamia somewhat before 3000 B.C.and by Mexican Indians before 600 B.C. Egyptian writing of 3000 B.C. and Chinese writing (by 1300 B.C.) may also have arisen independently. Probably all other people s who have developed writing systems since then have borrowed, adapted or at least been inspired by existing systems.``

Further on page 227 ``Semites (Arabs) familiar with Egyptian hieroglyphics did begin to experiment with that logical step.`` ( meaning move from signs and logograms to consonantal alphabet, and so you see the Semites are considered to be a different race).

Then on 227 again last paragraph `` A far more important line evolved by way of the Aramaic alphabet , used for official documents of the Persian Empire, into the mordern Arabic, Hebrew, Indian. and South East Asian alphabets``

So you see I did read the book a long time ago. Only approaching senility makes me forget large parts of it. I shall not post anymore on this topic. I will save my typing for castigating Mr.Behl if I can think of something intelligent to say.

Have a nice weekend.

Sadanand

#53 by swarrier

[I don`t understand the context of your letter at all. You mentioned that there was no script developed in Africa. Egyptian script by the way is not Arabic. The hieroglyphics were developed by non-Arabs.]

Sez who?

[If Ethiopian script came from Arabic influences are you telling me that scripts all over the world developed completely independent of each other without any cultural exchanges.]

The point is that there were NONE until the 1800s.

Got it?

No?

Oh Well...


[Even your friend Jared Diamond speaks of only two independently developed script forms, one in China and the other one in the Mesopotamian valley. All others are to quote him rip-offs. Which means our Indian scripts too. I have read ``Guns germs and Steel``. It is a good book. But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think. There are alternate theories that exist and there are many scholars who do not agree with Jared Diamond. ]

This tells me that you most certainly have NOT read the book. Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?

I`ll be waiting for your response.


[Incidentally about the Vai script (from your favourite search engine )
A syllabary is a set of characters each of which denotes a syllable rather than a single sound. The Vai syllabary was devised by Momolu Duwalu Bukele in 1830 near Cape Mount in Liberia. It was actually adapted from ancient ideographs that had been in use two centuries before) and is still prevalent today where Vais use it for informal correspondence.

The fact is that Black Africans were capable of developing scripts after being exposed to outside influences just as our ancestors were. ]

Yes, but you missed the point - NO written scripts until the 1800s.

Get it?

No?

Oh well....


[Don`t point to hard sciences etc in your mail. As far as I can infer you are saying some people are inferior to other people. That part is very clear. I am saying you are wrong. ]

If it is clear to you, that means the issue is far from clear.

Why does pointing to the hard sciences mean that ``saying some people are inferior to other people``?


[Why does it have to be hard science to impress you.]

It`s not me, it`s everybody. An achievement in mathematics will change many more minds than the a degree in humanities.

That`s just the way it is. And rightfully so, if I might add.


[Can a Mathematician like Blackwell be anything less than your hard scientist?]

It is getting rather irritating to have to repeat myself. HOW MANY Blackwells do you have amongst the huge black population of the world?


[George Washinton Carver whom I mentioned is a hard scientist. Don`t back track on your argument. You mentioned there was not a single Black hard scientist of international repute. ]

My dear fellow, you will notice at the end of this discussion that I am right on EVERY point I mentioned. And you are not.

George Washington Carver is NOT very reputed or well-known. Not like Stephen Hawking, or Jagadish Chandra Bose, for example.

And as I mentioned, the quality as well as the quantity is meager.


[And since you appreciate google so much you can search for Black scientists (hard sciences) of international repute. You will come up with a few.]

Let me repeat (this is getting rather tiring):

The quality as well as the quantity is meager.


[Don`t tell me that prejudices do not apply in cases of hiring. They change as people change. Otherwise there would not have been signs in Puritan America in the 1800`s saying ``No Irish need apply``. And if it weren`t for affiirmative actiion and people like Martin Luther King none of us would find the US so easy to live in. ]

Try not to put words in my mouth.

Prejudices in hiring INDEED exist. As I mentioned in the case of the American businessman, IT IS BASED ON PERCEPTIONS. AND TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS, ONE HAS TO HAVE ACHIEVEMENTS. NOT IN HISTORY, OR SOCIAL SCIENCES, BUT IN THE HARD SCIENCES.