Has Higher Education Failed India?

Quote:
This is perhaps due to the fact that a University teacher has no stake in the future of the students. His job is secure, his promotions secure and his pension all the more secure-so where does teaching come in.

India is fast losing its intellectual prowess-vigour or whatever u may call it.
As far as IITs/IIMs are concerned , the niche-glory which these ivory towers have created for themselves is due to those students(when reservations % was still very less).
The USP(Unique Selling Proposition) of these institutions have allways been their faculty ,
know worldwide for imparting a rigourous method of logical thinking to their students. The campuses of these elite institutions were designed to be self contained , relatively autonomous environments where the best minds can be attracted-nurtured for 4-6 years.
(something like the ancient gurukul system)completely free of all kinds of political interference.

With 50% reservations in faculty jobs, the consequences can well be imagined. Most of the current faculty now prefer to bask in past earned glory enjoying the 5th pay commission salaries + lucrative consultancies, while their PG teaching assistants are required to take up the routine teaching activities in the classroom.

In 1 sentence, the situation can be summarised as follows
`` system is decaying``

1 element of the system (namely the teachers cannot be blamed alone for it). Even students are part of the problem. They are now more focussed , more materialistic . very few are now interested in jobs which do not pay them immediate returns.

There has been a lot of talk about how the Indian government didn`t/doesn`t know how to tax an intangible like software and that is why the software industry is doing well.

Now of course our politicians have figure out how to fcuk with the software industry.

The first is OBC quotas at IITs and IIMs.

The second is OBC/SC/ST quotas in private industry.

It has taken them 20 years but they have finally come up with the answer how to screw those Indians who are fortunate enough to get out of the clutches of the socialist model and make money for themselves and their families, while providing indirect employment to maids, cooks, automobile/two-wheeler mechanics, etc.

There is absolutely no limit to which our politicians won`t stoop to make sure that no one escapes poverty in India.

Hi

I am bit sorry that this aricle is not tight and very well edited by me. But i hope that it managed to send the message across.

As far as reservations are concerned, it is without any doubt a positive step being taken by the government.
IITs and IIMs for long have become the preserve of the rich and the upper caste and class elite. Its high time that these institutions begin to give entry to students from all sections of society.

Abhishek Behl

The big mafia that I see often is the Red Flag mafia stuffed in the Arts faculty of these Universities which is infested with the chamchas and relatives/sons of their comarade friends.
This Arts faculty mafia is the worst of the staff room politicians who are hardly interested in even completing their courses and are more interested in organizing for rallies and protests.
This Arts faculty mafia hates updation of the courses.........and ensures that no other course ever gets updated ..............
This Arts faculty mafia hates the technocrats, IIT-s, IIM-s and other institutes that impart professional and engineering skills simply because they see them catering to the capitalist system they so intensely desire to `overthrow`.
If you want to reform the universities, then you have to overthrow these Red mafiaso and ensure that they do not try and politicize everything that comes on their way............

As regards obfuscation of the term `merit` by these Red mafiaso...................how on the earth can you compare 20/100 with 90/100 in answering a paper on Mathematics. You cannot call the two grades `equally` meritorious.

If you want to give degrees to SC/ST/OBC-s then give them FREE.

Or, you create IIT exclusively for OBC or IIM-s exclusively for SC/ST.

But do not confuse every body else by saying that the two grades are equally `meritorious`.....this is called playing politics with `merit` which these red mafia are very adept at.

My proposal-

Convert IIT Delhi exclusively for the SC/ST/OBC, staff it with only OBC /SC/ST and let them produce for the market.

Create IIT say at Patna only for General students..........let entry to it be only through `merit` evaluated in terms of skill sets and analytical power.........there would be no consideration for extrenous political considerations like religion/caste etc.............

finally you can then let the industry decide which one they want to recruit..........

otherwise you can give then BTech`s and BE-s or MBBS FREE..............like rewaris to whatever caste as per the proportionate representation in the population......l

quote:

reservations is a positive step being taken by the govt
IITs / IIMs for long have been the preserve of the rich-upper caste-class elite
these institutions begin to give entry to students from all sections of society

---

can u define ``all sections`` of the indian society?
quotas based on gender
50% male / 50% female

quotas based on religions
hindus 83% / muslims 13% / sikhs 1% / others 3%

quotas based on castes(within hindus)
50% + ?

quotas based on religional basis
north indians will get only 60% while south indians get only 40% of the quotas

quotas based on economic status
based on annual income basis,accumulated wealth,political power,position etc

---

one interesting point is that reserved category parents do not want their children to be taught by reserved category teachers !! they demand merit as customers !!

FYI...

List of fake universities (as on March 24, 2006)

1.
Maithili University/Vishwavidyalaya, Darbhanga, Bihar
2.
Mahila Gram Vidyapith/Vishwavidyalaya,(Women`s University) Prayag, Allahabad (UP)
3.
Varanaseya Sanskrit Vishwavidyalaya,Varanasi (UP)Jagatpuri, Delhi
4.
Commercial University Ltd., Daryaganj, Delhi
5.
Indian Education Council of U.P., Lucknow(UP)
6.
Gandhi Hindi Vidyapith, Prayag, Allahabad (UP)
7.
National University of Electro Complex Homeopathy, Kanpur
8.
Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose University (Open Univeristy), Achaltal,Aligarh (UP)
9.
D.D.B. Sanskrit University,Putur, Trichi, Tamil Nadu
10.
St. John`s University, Kishanttam, Kerala
11.
United Nations University, Delhi
12.
Vocational University, Delhi
13.
Uttar Pradesh Vishwavidyalaya, Kosi Kalan, Mathura (UP)
14.
Maharana Patap Shiksha Niketan Vishwavidyalaya, Pratapgarh (UP)
15.
Raja Arabic University, Nagpur
16.
Kesarwani Vidyapith, Jabalpur (M.P.)
17.
Badaganvi Sarkar World Open University Education Society, Gokak, Belgaum (Karnataka)
18.
ADR-Centric Juridical University, ADR House, 8J, Gopala Tower, 25 Rajendra Place, New Delhi-110008.
19.
Handwriting University India, No 16 Church Road, Basavaugudi,Bangalor-4
20.
Gurukul Vishwavidyalaya, Vrindawan (UP)
21.
The Institute of Para Medical Sciences, 37, Siv Sarovar Colony, Gadh Road, Meerut (UP)
22.
Bioinformatics Institute of India, New Delhi

Ref ballukhan #4

[otherwise you can give then BTech`s and BE-s or MBBS FREE..............like rewaris to whatever caste as per the proportionate representation in the population......l ]

Well, universities already hand out free honoris causa PhDs/DLitt`s to politicians.

Our own Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion has one from Annamalai University.

Oops. I got to make that Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister from now on! Asli-Masanamuthu will get upset if I don`t.

Ref ballukhan #4

[My proposal-

Convert IIT Delhi exclusively for the SC/ST/OBC, staff it with only OBC /SC/ST and let them produce for the market.

Create IIT say at Patna only for General students..........let entry to it be only through `merit` evaluated in terms of skill sets and analytical power.........there would be no consideration for extrenous political considerations like religion/caste etc.............

finally you can then let the industry decide which one they want to recruit.......... ]

Just add one proviso.

All politicians, in particular Arjun Singh, VP Singh, the original Mandal, etc., cannot go abroad for medical treatment but will have to accept treatment from OBC/SC/ST doctors.

Hinjras are aping the US public school system - which has been turned into a cesspool by politicians, political correctness and parents.......

Dear Author

What you have written is entirely true of indian education system in general. However, i have a few questions/comments:

a) When Macaulay introduced his system in India, was the education system in Britain very much different? Also, what was our own education system at that time?

b) Regarding the exodus of Indian students to western universities - how many of these students come back with an intention of settling down in India? Isn`t it true that they are just turning away from the country and not education system alone?

c) Does the rot begin in Universities? The rot begins at elementary school. It continues through middle and high school and when the student reaches college/university level, he is rock hardened into the ``cram/copy/paste/exam/pass/fail/percentage marks`` system. But almost everybody talks of only higher education. What about elementary/middle school?

d) Sadly, our government`s attitude towards education is clearly visible in how the education ministers are appointed. Generally, if you want to sidetrack a politician, but he has some clout that you can`t ignore, you make him education minister. Important and powerful politicians/groups get home/finance/foreign/defence/commerce etc. Education is not powerful ministery but respectable. So you get geriatrics like M M Joshi or Arjun Singh as education ministers, who then start fingering into wherever they can to broaden their base.

Thanks

Re: # 3
Mineguruji
I`m afraid I do not agree with you. I don`t remember seeing caste as one of the blanks to be filled in on the JEE form. Of course that was a century ago. You might say upper castes fill the IIT`s but on the flip side you could say it`s because the parents of these upper castes pushed their kids to study knowing this was one of the few ways to a relatively secure future. To blame it on the upper castes and elites , because they knew their onions is ridiculous.

Perhaps you`d like to see the IIT`s and IIM`s become as stagnant as the standard University systems in India.

I would suggest make primary education equally accessible to all and let the higher education be decided solely on merit.

mr behl,
some of the private companies in india like reliance have done the smart thing and offer conitinuing education to rectify what is (not) taught in the university. e.g. they will hire a BSc and then put him thru 4 years of course-work tought by IIT and other quality professors, and he becomes a chemical engg, eligible for promotion. if you work for RCF (rastriya chemical and fertilizer) in same geographic area, same available talent pool, you sit on your butt and play identity politics in the office to get your promotion .. there is little incentive to work ethically. only way reliance petro will be as competative as rcf is when reliance is forced to have 50% quota.

#12 more evidence

http://www.siliconindia.com/shownewsdata.asp?newsno=31893

``BANGALORE: Infosys Technologies has set aside $360 million to invest in training and infrastructure for the year, during which it plans to hire 25,000 employees and increase office space by 50 percent.``

Abhishek {``This is perhaps due to the fact that a University teacher has no stake in the future of the students. His job is secure, his promotions secure and his pension all the more secure-so where does teaching come in.

Naturally, wealthy Indian students are taking recourse to migrating to the West for higher education.``}

Abhishek Sahib,
Very informative and interesting article. It has been abundantly clear that Indian (and of course Pakistani) universities, with the exception of the IITs, do not teach self-motivation, out-of-the-box thinking, and innovation. This is something that the hard-working and intelligent students have to learn on their own once they arrive in the west for higher education.

On a positive note, the excellence of written English that is imparted to Indian students is a definite asset for them when they study and work in US, Canada, UK, and Australia. In fact, I would go so far as to state that the English language is the single most important reason for India becoming an advanced and developed country. Pakistan, which inherited almost the same standard of English, has squandered its good fortune thanks to a misplaced emphasis on Islamiyat, Arabic, aboriginal languages, and of course Urdu.

Sometimes history is a good guide. I have recently come around to thinking that India is poised at the edge of its own ``Great Cultural Revolution``. What will our gang of four look like? Yechury, Arjun Singh, Laloo and Chautala?

Mr Behl, good luck to you, people like you will rise to great positions in the new order.

We will destroy the old to create the new

re: #6 by aisha_sarwari on May 17, 2006 4:19am PT
{{{FYI...

List of fake universities (as on March 24, 2006)
1.
Maithili University/Vishwavidyalaya, Darbhanga, Bihar
2. .......}

Dear Asli Paki,


coming from the failed Paki land aren`t u embarassed u r posting this


when everything has failed in ur fake cuntry?.....

Author, whatever the current limitations of the Indian education system and its institutions, your litany of complaints makes less than convincing reading. By and large, the educational system has served the country well. The correlations of formal education to the state of learning, that of the state of learning to relevance to societal needs, that of one`s earning power to one`s level of skills, that of one`s hard work to one`s level of success, that of one`s level of success to one`s level of happiness, and the like, are usually murky everywhere in the world - and India is no exception. The building up of the centers of excellence was among the few sensible investments that Nehru made - which have been paying off since the mid-nineties in myriad ways - as soon as the other shoe fell - the shoe of economic liberalization. The exodus of Indian students to the US and other countries is at least a three generation old phenomenon - which has been in the past mischaracterized as ``brain drain``. In reality, there is no drain - either of brain power or of money. Usually, such students receive scholarship/assistantship/financial aid of one kind or other and do not ultimately end up spending own resources. Although in many ways the pedagogical style is highly teacher-driven and stifles creativity and leaves a lot to be desired - the universities should not be blamed for just one manifestation of what the society at large is doing wholesale to its population in many aspects of life. (Note: your article is replete with irksome spelling mistakes - chowk should try to catch the same prior to publication. The article could have used rereadings and would have benefited from some hard facts to reinforce whatever argument it tries to make - instead of its sweeping generalizations and the citing of isolated instances as the norm.)

This is a hodgepodge article based on a mixture of opinion, conjecture and plain fantasy.

``The reason behind this mass exodus of quality students, willing to shell ten times the amount which they need to spend to get similar education in India perhaps lies in the failure of our education system which has not been able to offer viable and creative solutions meeting emerging demands.``

So all the remaining stuff is based on this one assumption? Are you seriously telling me that students from IITs and other educational institutions going abroad after graduation is a reflection of their attitude towards the ``failed`` education system they went through? Or are they perhaps, like any rational human being will, thinking of what`s best for themselves and making use of the opportunity that their talent and heard work has afforded them, to seek a better life for themselves and their families?

Most people I know (yeah a lot of them went to IIT and IIM) have fond memories of their school and college years. They seem to have accepted with resigned good humour that the ``ratta`` (rote learning) is part of the deal. But you know, sometimes when I remember those lines by Longfellow that I last read in Class IX, or help my college-going nephews with their organic chem conversions, I feel a little thankful that thanks to this much-lambasted ``system``at least some of that what I was taught has stayed with me to this day. While this is no defence of the absolutely cruel way examinations are conducted in our country, my point is that by no means is the education system a failed one in India. If the dropout ratios are so high, blame it on the socio-political-economic environment, like anything else, e.g. why are we corrupt?

Branding all teachers as mafia hoodlums is a convenient but totally inaccurate explanation. We`ve all had good teachers, and we`ve all had bad teachers. Secondary school teachers in unaided schools in Mumbai, for example, are contract employees earning 2000 rupees a month (in contrast a BMC street sweeper gets 7000 a month plus benefits). It`s amazing to me that there remain people to this day dedicated to the art of teaching. But for how long?

But as usual, like with anything else in this blasted country, we focus on solving all the wrong problems. We don`t care that 60% of our students flunk their secondary school graduation exams, but we sure are concerned about getting the least deserving ones from that bunch into IITs and IIMs! And from thereon into the private sector! And to top it all, guys like the author glibly uttering smug homilies like, ``As far as reservations are concerned, it is without any doubt a positive step being taken by the government.
IITs and IIMs for long have become the preserve of the rich and the upper caste and class elite. Its high time that these institutions begin to give entry to students from all sections of society.``

Rich!

#19 by burpinder

Great post, burp bhai! Couldn`t have said it any better. Folks like this author don`t seem to think through before penning their rants.

Quote
your article is replete with irksome spelling mistakes - chowk should try to catch the same prior to publication. The article could have used rereadings and would have benefited from some hard facts to reinforce whatever argument it tries to make - instead of its sweeping generalizations and the citing of isolated instances as the norm.)


Respected BJ Kumar and every one who has been kind enough to read this article and gave his or her opinion,

I again apologise for loose editing and few spelling mistakes because of an inadvertant mistake, but i assure you that all the arguments are original and they are not plagiarised.
These are the result of my interaction with different universities as a news reporter.
What i found in Jammu is not an exception but a rule for the entire country.

I would lilke to inform you that out of 500 faculty on roll at Jammu University, not even 5 percent are from OBC or SC/ST community. Despite the fact that Jammu and Kashmir has a very high literacy rate among these sections.
Another interesting facet to note is that upper caste communities in Jammu and Kashmir are getting reservations under the garb of Residents of Backward areas and they are not even excluded by creamy layer criterion.
Infact guys who have become doctors using this quota are today shouting in the streets against the quota system.
What a tragedy.
As far as opposition to this quota system is concerned it has become a fashionable thing to do. Upper caste people control the media, have a strong presence on the net and are more articulate- as such the dice is loaded in their favour.
But, due to the changed political scenario, it will be impossible to stifle the truth.

Abhishek Behl

#21 by mineguruji

I would lilke to inform you that out of 500 faculty on roll at Jammu University, not even 5 percent are from OBC or SC/ST community.

So what does that prove moron? If almost 60 years of reservation could not better the lot of the SC/ST community (less than 5% of faculty among 500), how is increasing the quota going to help?

To enlighten my dear friends and to make them aware of the real nature of the IITs, I am posting an interesting article that i found on the web.
Although it might be criticised for being a one sided version, but still it exposes the way these hallowed institutions function.
Whatever the case may be but it is very well researched and friends like BJ Kumar wont complain about lack of facts.

Abhishek Behl



Dalits & BCs suffer under Brahminical dictatorship in IIT - Madras
BY BJ THOMAS

Under the Institute of Technology Act 1961 (``Act 59 of 1961``) passed by Parliament, six institutes were declared as ``Institutes of National Importance``. One such institute is the IIT Madras. Every year these institutes receive Rs. 1,000 crore from the Govt. of India (HRD).

The IIT Madras is situated on a 300-acre campus in the heart of Madras for which the credit goes to Chief Minister Kamaraj. Despite the IIT being located in Tamil Nadu, the representation of Tamils here is minimum.

BRHAMIN MONOPOLY
It has become one of the foremost Brahmin bastions all over the world in the field of academics. In the past four decades of its existence the Brahmins who occupy all the decision-making positions have dominated it. In all these years of existence, the Institute has not had a single Dalit or Backward Caste director.

In the past decade, large-scale financial irregularities and mishandling of public funds have attracted the adverse notice of the public and the media. The arbitrary selections and appointments made to the post of faculty members have been challenged under several writ petitions. In fact, within this short period of 10 years over 200 cases have been filed against it.

Human rights violation:

Though the Constitution guarantees reservation (human rights) for the OBCs and Dalits in matters of education and employment, this policy is not followed here either at the level of student admission or faculty selection.

Faculty appointments:

Out of the total faculty strength of 450, only two are Dalits despite the constitutional mandate that 22.5% of all positions must be reserved for the Dalits. Hardly 50 faculty members are BCs.

The rest of the faculty are upper castes, most of them Brahmins.

Writ petitions on reservation in faculty pending before the court are:

(1) W.P.No. 5415/95 filed by IIT BC Employees Welfare Association; (2) W.P.No.16528/95 filed by the Vanniar Mahasangam; (3) W.P. No. 16863/95; (4) W.P.No. 17403/95; (5) W.P. No. 4242/97 filed by Dr. Muthuveerappan; (6) W.P. No. 4256/97 filed by Dr. W.B. Vasantha Kandasamy; (7) W.P. No. 4257/97 filed by Dr. W.B. Vasantha Kandasamy and (8) W.P.37020/2003.
To escape the constitutional mandate, it has cunningly followed the ``contract`` system hiring faculty members on ``ad hoc`` basis. Faculty members from the upper castes are eventually made permanent.

To escape legal problem advertisement is published. All the advertisements will not stand up to review. Because all material particulars will be clearly absent: number of vacancies, number of positions reserved etc.

Student admissions:

As in faculty positions reservation policy is not followed in student admissions. It was only in 1978 it first thought of reservation to Dalit students. But this 22.5% quota is not completely filled up. Instead the eye-wash of using lower cut-off marks is said to be followed. Besides, in a gross violation of the fundamental right to equality, Dalit students who gain admission to B.Tech are made to undergo a one-year preparatory course before being admitted to B.Tech.

No reservation exists in the IITs for Backward students. There is also no relaxation of criteria. In the name of merit, the legitimate rights of the deprived castes are denied. In September 2005, a writ petition was filed in the Madras high Court seeking 27% reservation in IITs for OBC students.

IRREGULARITIES DURING NVC SWAMY PERIOD
Occupying office illegally:

The Director of the Institute during the year 1995 was Dr. N.V.C. Swamy. He retired in April 1995 but continued in the post till June 30, 1996 under the pretext that his appointment had been extended. He had by then attained superannuation and was well over 60 years. The appointment of the Director of the IIT requires the prior approval of the President of India who is the Visitor of all IITs. Without the presidential approval, the then Education Secretary of the HRD Ministry, S.V. Giri, sent a DO Letter No.12-17/95 TSI (Oct.31, 1995) giving an extension to N.V.C. Swamy for three months. The Faculty Association of the IIT filed a writ before the Madras High Court (W.P. No. 15486 of 1995). This writ petition was admitted and subsequently Swamy resigned.

Recruiting 80 faculties:

During his illegal term as the Director, Dr.N.V.C. Swamy hurriedly advertised and filled up faculty positions. Within three months he appointed over 80 upper castes to faculty positions. Reservation policy was thrown to basket.

NVC Swamy went to the extent of reissuing advertisements to ensure that his favourite candidates were selected. For instance, the advt. (No. IITM/R/8/94) for the post of Associate Professor, Maths Dept., was clearly given ``the candidate should have a basic degree in Maths``. If this criteria had been strictly followed an upper caste man would not have been selected.

So to select their favourite, Dr. S.G. Kamath, who had a B.Sc. degree in physics, to the post of Associate Professor, they changed the very selection criteria. For this, they issued a re-advertisement No. IITM/R/1/95 relaxing some of the previous criteria and taking out this necessity for basic degree in maths itself. Though the advt. invites applications only from those who hold first class degrees, a second-class degree holder, Dr. A. Rangan, was selected to the post of Associate Professor in Maths Dept. At the same time, though Dr. W.B. Vasantha was extremely meritorious she was not selected because she belonged to the OBC community.

Reservation policy not implemented:

According to the Board resolution no.11 of 1994 in the 145th meeting of the Board of Governors, it was resolved to implement the reservation policy as per the Ministry of Human Resources Letter (1/11/1993). Also, the Office Memorandum of the Dept. of Personnel & Training (13.01.1995) extends the reservation to BCs in civil posts and services to be filled by direct recruitment to bodies like the IIT.

In the faculty selections that were carried out during the five-year tenure of Dr. NVC Swamy the constitutional mandate of reservation was clearly missing because it was blatantly breached.

The IIT BC Employees Welfare Association headed by K.N. Jothi filed a writ (WP No. 5415/95) before the Madras High Court challenging the non-implementation of reservation. After the filing this writ petition, in all the appointment orders given to the posts of Assistant Professor, Associate Professor and Professor, it was mentioned:

Please note that the High Court of Madras by its order dated 17.4.1995 in W.M.P. No. 8893 in W.P.No. 5415 of 1995 has made the following order: the offer of appointment is subject to the result of the writ petition.

The Vanniyar Sangam filed a writ (16528 of 1995) challenging the non-implementation of the reservation policy for the OBCs. Similarly W.P. No. 17403 of 1995 was also filed for a similar purpose.

FERA violations:

He undertook frequent foreign trips in the name of signing Memorandums of Understanding (MOU) with universities abroad. During these trips, he never took clearance from the Ministry and the Reserve Bank. He also collected donations in dollars for corpus fund from the alumni of IIT who were living abroad. But he never deposited the amount in the IIT account. IIT sources said the amount collected ran into a few crores of rupees.

Illegal lease of institute property:

Dr. Swamy leased the Institute`s sports stadium to a private company, Chemplast Sanmar, violating the IIT Act that says: that no part of the Institute premises can be leased or rented to anybody. The premises of the Institute can be used solely for the purpose of research and student activities. (Act, Chapter II 6(j) and 7(2).

Creating 197 categories of posts:

As the Director, he had created over 197 categories of workers which does not exist anywhere in the Act and statutes. The same sources said he gave illegal promotions to his favourite cadre.

R. NATARAJAN PERIOD (1996-2001)
1996 faculty recruitment drive:

As soon as Dr. R. Natarajan took over, he too issued an advt. for faculty positions. In these selections, those who were the favourites of the ex-Director, and those who protested in a signature campaign against the Faculty Association for filing a case were given promotions as if it was a reward.

The appointments and the advt. were unnecessary because only a year ago there had been an enormous selection process at the faculty level. This selection was also filled with all kinds of irregularities. No reservation was followed at all for the OBC/SC/ST.

Caste, not merit:

For the post of Professor, 98 were selected but some of them did not even have a single Ph.D. guidance, no PG project guidance and hardly half-a-dozen research papers. Merit and excellence were not taken into consideration, only caste played a prominent role. This selection was also challenged (W.P.No. 4257/97) by Dr. W.B. Vasantha Kandasamy as there was no reservation for BCs and it did not follow the Supreme Court order in the Indira Sawhney case (AIR 1993 SCC 477).

Dr. Muthuveerappan, an OBC faculty member of the Mechanical Engg. Dept., also challenged the faculty selection done in 1996 before the High Court (WP No. 4242/97).

Even in the list of those selected faculty, there was not a single Dalit. There would have been hardly half a dozen non-Brahmins.

Backdoor entry:

Ad hoc appointments are resorted to effectively deny entry of weaker sections into faculty positions. These ad hoc appointments are effected in the nature of selective reservation for persons who are connected to a coterie which is at the helm of affairs at the Institute.

During 1986-1997 it made over 180 ad hoc appointments to the faculty positions under 17 job titles. Nearly 80 of them have been made permanent subsequently.

After R. Natarajan took charge, between Nov.1995 till 1998, about 37 appointments had been made without recourse to the regular selection process. These appointments were made through the backdoor thereby shutting out open competition and genuine merit. The IIT Act does not allow such contract appointments.

In 1998, the Backward Class Employees Welfare Association represented by its Secretary, Prof. N.R. Neelakantan, filed a writ (W.P. No.3570 of 1998) challenging these ad hoc appointments.

Faculty recruitment drive:

In 1998, it issued an advt. (IITM/R/3/98 in the Hindu April 25, 1998) for the post of Asst. Prof. in the various departments flouting the constitutional provision of reservation for SC/ST/OBC.

This advt. was basically aimed at regularizing and making permanent those appointed illegally on the ad hoc basis. The BC Employees Welfare Assn. headed by Prof. N.R. Neelakantan filed a writ (W.P. No. 6313/98) before the High Court challenging this advt.

Dismissal of Natarajan demand:

Ex-MP, Era Anbarasu filed a quo warranto writ (W.P. No. 12128/98) before the High Court seeking the dismissal of Director, R. Natarajan.

Natarajan had fabricated his date of birth. According to the record, he joined first standard at the age of 3. Besides, instead of a proper meeting of the IIT council comprising 33 members, only three people had met and selected him. He was also accused of having plagiarized research matter which is pending before the High Court of Madras (W.P. No. 7775/97).

Employees Union strike:

Employees of the IIT staged a series of protests against Natarajan in 1999. The strike lasted for 120 days and T.R. Balu, Union Minister for Shipping, had addressed the employees.

The Director was furious that T.R. Balu asked him to come down from the fifth floor to meet the employees. The IIT comes under the parliamentary constituency of Balu.

Natarajan later took revenge by sacking the office-bearers, dismissing them from service, conducting inquiries and serving them show-cause notices. All this resulted in a series of writ petitions being filed in the High Court and several of them are pending even today causing extreme distress to the employees.

1999-2000 faculty recruitment drive:

Towards the end of his tenure in a hurry he wanted to promote all his favourites and henchmen. Hence an advt. (No. IITM/R/5/999) was issued on Nov.3, 1999 inviting applications to the posts of Asst. Prof, Associate Prof. and Professor. The selection was kept in abeyance for around a year.

The interviews were hastily held from Sept.11 to Sept.25, 2000 and the results were announced at 8 p.m. on Sept.25. The selected candidates joined the very next day. He arbitrarily recruited over 99 people, a great majority of them from the upper castes to fill up these positions. Not even a single Dalit was selected. Against this a writ (No. 17835/2000) was filed.

MISCHIEF DURING M.S. ANANTH PERIOD
Arbitrary selection of 130 new faculties:

Immediately after M.S. Ananth took over office in 2002 he issued an advt. calling for applications to the post of Asst. Prof. Those selected were Brahmins. However, he soon changed his tactics.

In a stealthy yet massive recruitment drive over 130 faculty members have been hastily appointed since 2003 without open advertisement or a regular selection process.

In a recent interview to rediff.com (www.rediff.com/money/2005/may/23iit.htm), Dr. Ananth said:

I have hired 130 faculty members in the last three years, of who 36 have B.Techs from various IITs who`ve done Ph.D. abroad and come back. But I have lost 90 by retirement and so I am running very fast to stay where I am.
This large-scale appointments reveals the undue haste, lowering of eligibility criteria, favouritism of recruiting alumni and absolute lack of transparency. Moreover, with a callous disregard to social justice and the constitutional mandate of reservation, not even half a dozen Dalits have been selected as a faculty member.

Shameful role:

To facilitate this hasty, biased selection process, the advt. on the Institute`s website (http://www.iitm. ac.in/Faculty%20 Openings) says:

This is a standing advertisement. There is no specific requirement on when a candidate can submit an application. Applications will be accepted throughout the year. Candidates who meet the prescribed qualifications need not wait for any formal announcement of recruitment to submit an application.
The ambiguity is apparent because even the number of vacancies is not announced. To broad-base this arbitrary activity, applications to the entry-level position of Asst. Prof. is invited for all the 15 departments in the institute.

Norms and guidelines for selection are wilfully abandoned and unbridled power to select less meritorious candidates is given to the respective departments. The standing advertisement states, ``the departments have the right to set different as well as higher norms, while shortlisting, taking into account the requirements of the departments``. This paves way for a pathetic dilution of standards.

Today, even the universities stipulate five yeas of research and teaching experience after receiving the doctoral degree as the basic eligibility criteria for the entry-level lecturer positions. Yet, in a shameful role-reversal, IIT Madras stands stripped of its halo of high quality, the standing advt. relaxes the eligibility criteria and invites applications for the Asst. Prof. position from ``candidates who expect to receive their Ph.D. within the next six months`` adding that ``their appointment to the post, if found suitable, will be subject to their receiving the degree``.

Hush hush appointments:

Worse in the rediff.com interview, M.S. Ananth accepted that the IIT Madras has ``adjunct faculty who don`t even need a master`s degree``.

Faculty appointments have been bestowed with an infamous history, having been consistently challenged in judicial avenues for the past decade. Since then, it has shied away from open advertisements and opted for using the internet-based standing advt. which makes the entire exercise shrouded in secrecy. The regular selection process has been subverted by resorting to the tested technique of bulk back-door entries.

This is taking place because the Brahmins here are extremely averse to recruiting people from Dalits and BCs. By using ``standing advertisements`` they can overlook reservation and deny equal opportunity.

Now a fresh advt. has been issued in the press on Sept.26, 2005. It calls for applications to the posts of Professor and Associate Professor. No mention is made of the number of vacancies. Like all the previous times, only Brahmins and upper castes will be selected. No reservation policy will be followed.

Unless this is prevented all the vacancies shall be filled up and for decades no non-Brahmin can enter the institute.

Quote
So what does that prove moron? If almost 60 years of reservation could not better the lot of the SC/ST community (less than 5% of faculty among 500), how is increasing the quota going to help?


This proves that upper caste guys like you have lost temper and are not ready to discuss things and find a solution.
Its people like you, who are the problem. Casteism and bias is inherent in your genetic makeup and you are not ready to share space with common men.

Just relax. LOl

Abhishek Behl

#24 by mineguruji

This proves that upper caste guys like you have lost temper and are not ready to discuss things and find a solution.

And this is what happens when absolute good-for-nothings like you avail of reservations and go on to become journalists and professionals. You talk from your rear-ends without using your heads. What makes you think I`m upper-caste?

Its people like you, who are the problem. Casteism and bias is inherent in your genetic makeup and you are not ready to share space with common men.

Don`t talk to me about common man. I`m as common as they come. But like I said, you talk from your rear-end, which means you assume a lot of things about others.

BTW, you didn`t answer a very pertinent question in that last post of mine. If 60 years of reservation could not better the lot of SC/STs, what makes you think more reservations will? No ad-hominems please.

#23 by mineguruji

Although it might be criticised for being a one sided version, but still it exposes the way these hallowed institutions function.

Ironically, Abhishek wants admissions based on caste, but when the IIT Director selects faculty on the basis of caste, his undies are on fire. Why?

Bizarre article. The author is obviously one of these left-wing sickos who is obsessed with ``caste`` and making high-faluting statements about things he doesnt understand. This article is almost free of any logic and consistency.

The real issue with education in india is that we dont have enough of it at every level. Our do-nothing govt and left-wing leadership wont expand enough of the good schools and it wont allow the private sector a leading role either. People may not have realized but recently the great reformer Arun Singh has shelved the proposal of doubling number of IITs and is quietly now converting existing institutes into IITs (capacity expansion ZERO). Instead, we have this sad tamasha of ``brahmin`` vs. others or OBC quotas.

Behl dude,

Your job is to report things. Its upto the people to protest for whatever reason they deem worthwhile.

``As far as opposition to this quota system is concerned it has become a fashionable thing to do.``

-- Oh, yeah? People are availing benefits of reservations multiple times in their lives. Don`t you morons have anything to comment on that, you loose mouth? On a side note, I don`t remember morons like you saying that it has become a fashionable thing for Islamic freaks to hit the streets in violent protests during Bush`s trip.

``Another interesting facet to note is that upper caste communities in Jammu and Kashmir are getting reservations under the garb of Residents of Backward areas``

-- If there`s any one valid criterion for applying reservations, it is this, and not caste. But with an abundant jobless journalists, driving the point home is sorta hard.

``Infact guys who have become doctors using this quota are today shouting in the streets against the quota system. ``

-- Then, why the flying fcuk are you complaining? Obviously, they know better than a jobless journalist.

``Upper caste people control the media, have a strong presence on the net and are more articulate- as such the dice is loaded in their favour.``

-- Are you gainfully employed? Do you feed your family well?

Re: # 23
Okay lets assume that all the facts that have been put here are true. So what you are saying is that increasing the quota system and thereby disregarding merit based admissions is the best way to go. So for you it`s just a question of turning the hour glass upside down again.

Only this time the backward castes and non-privileged people should reap the benefits instead of the upper castes and rich folks, right?

I suppose there is no question here of ensuring that neither the upper or the lower castes are able to jockey themselves into prime positions.

Just replace one set of injustices with another.

I suppose you think this will make things better.

As for the rest of the article, Macaulay`s system at least introduced some form of standardised education in India. Now why are the Universities the last bastion of mediocre teaching talent. I`m sure you wouldn`t mind getting a job with CNN or BBC with a higher pay packet. So an intelligent graduate in any field would no doubt look for a job that pays a bit more money. I suppose that is not hard to understand. So if Universities raised their salaries to a level that is good enough it could encourage a better standard of professors, lecturers etc. But then you`d be paying a little more fees wouldn`t you. So where would all those poor people go?

Let`s see your version of how to change the education system in India? If you`ve thought on this long enough to write an article , you must have some solutions too. I`d already mentioned better primary education. Let`s start with that. What are your ideas? We`ll go onto the Universities after that.

Re: Misc. by mineguruji

I appreciate the fact that you like serious discussions. So I would appreciate a response.

This reservation for OBC/SC/ST situatin is very similar to the affirmative action situation in the united states for blacks.

While it is no doubt true that blacks have been victims of racism, THIS DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY THERE IS NOT ONE WRITTEN SCRIPT INDIGENOUSLY DEVELOPED IN THE WHOLE OF CONTINENTAL AFRICA.

A black child in the United States wears sneakers on his feet that costs more than the annual tuition fee in many village schools in India. Yet those village schools in India produce brilliant students. I am yet to see ONE famous black scientist of international repute in the hard sciences. And this is after MANY years of affirmative action. The lowest ranking students in any medical class in America are invariably black. To change perceptions (which is not fixable by quotas), one has to PROVE competence.

The same applies to OBC/SC/STs. There are many OBCs/SCs/STs that are affluent. I had SC/ST classmates that were much more affluent than me when I went to IIT. Yet, they were ALWAYS at the bottom of the class. Sure, Brahmins were part of the upper caste oppression, and prevented them from getting educated in the knowledge-base that the Brahmins themselves had developed. But THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY OBCs/SC/STs could not develop their own astronomy and mathematics.

Now does it, Mr. Behl?

What is it that prevented them from lying in their own huts and developing their own mathematics and astronomy and philosophy?

Any answers?

Re: # 30
krishna_abcd
Okay let`s not get carried away by this sort of reasoning or prejudices. There are factual errors in your statement. Continental africa does include Egypt which had its script and for that matter the old state of Israel. There are also scripts like the Bassa in the area of Liberia , there is Ethiopian script , there is the Vai script from West Africa .....

There have been African inventors too. For example Graville Woods invented the telegraph system for communicating with moving trains. He was awarded a patent for that in 1887 . David Blackwell in Berkeley has done fundamental work in game theory. George Washington Carver is well known in the area of biology.

Closer to home , I`m not sure you could dismiss Ambedkar as a moron could you?

I would wish to see a level playing field for all , as difficult as it sounds. Otherwise we just exchange one set of reservations for another.

i just dont see how a populist move like quotas for OBCs in govt inst of higher learning can fail.

- the ``upper class`` is a poor vote bank
- tamilnadu has implemented this for years and its no worse for it. upper caste have found a way to survive and so will rest of the indians
- BJP will not touc this issue. in past it did, but then they had 2 seats and nothing to lose.
- the upper-caste agitators will be met by other more street-politics savvy counter-agitators

so its time to just accept the fact that mandal commission will be implemented. its imperative on the upper castes to show grace and not ``fight`` this unwinable cause..all it will do is cause a divide bet OBCs and upper-caste (such a divide does not exist now, or is very blurry).

Re: # 32
Okay Jang
I have a suggestion. It`s too funny for words but....... Lets double the number of IITs and IIMs, medical colleges . That way the number of seats that the upper class would fight over remains the same. The number of seats the OBC etc have have increased n fold.

Ergo everybody is very happy, some more happy than others, but that`s life. Now will some nice bloke provide the money for all those new colleges? -)

#33 its not that funny..this is in line with what govt is saying..

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/18quota2.htm

``The committee told the students that a mechanism was being worked out by which the number of seats in the general category would not come down once the new reservation policy was implemented.

However, it was also pointed out that working out such a mechanism would take time considering that raising the number of seats was not easy as it was coupled with infrastructural problems like raising the number of teachers and other facilities. ``

Re: # 34
Oh hang, I`m begining to think like the gover-ni-mint. I knew I should have gone for the IAS instead of engineering.

Re: # 34

The UGC has a bar on increase of seats each academic year. Not more than 10%. Some idiot in the Parliament suggested a 50% increase in intake. Kya naatak hai! The universities are as it is having a problem handling the existing numbers. God alone knows how they will manage the proposed additional intake. Perfect masala for further chaos in our higher education set up. On the other hand, its perfect masala for Abhishek to write another article on the pathetic condition of Indian Universities.

#36..hahah..so in 5 years abhishek will write ``Pathetic state of education in IITs``.

Ref krishna_abcd #30

[....Sure, Brahmins were part of the upper caste oppression, and prevented them from getting educated in the knowledge-base that the Brahmins themselves had developed. But THAT DOES NOT EXPLAIN WHY OBCs/SC/STs could not develop their own astronomy and mathematics.

Now does it, Mr. Behl?

What is it that prevented them from lying in their own huts and developing their own mathematics and astronomy and philosophy?]

They were busy organizing circle jerks. They didn`t have time for mathematics, astronomy or philosophy.

uba #1

`` This is perhaps due to the fact that a University teacher has no stake in the future of the students. His job is secure, his promotions secure and his pension all the more secure-so where does teaching come in. ``

silly excuse - most tenured jobs in American universities have secure jobs and secure pensions

mineguruji #3

`` As far as reservations are concerned, it is without any doubt a positive step being taken by the government.
IITs and IIMs for long have become the preserve of the rich and the upper caste and class elite. Its high time that these institutions begin to give entry to students from all sections of society. ``

There are very few kids of industrialists in the IITs

mineguruji #21

To Abishek

Reseervations have the potential for tearing India apart. If caste based reservations are acceptabe why not language based reservations ? Why not religion based reservations ? If Kannidigas riot in Bangalore demanding 80% of jobs in Bangalore be reserved for them ?
what would you suggest the Indian government do ?

The backwardness of the lower castes has to resolved by compulsory high quality school education and the self-determination to succeed. The corrupt upper caste dominated governments will not provide them. VP Singh or Arjun Singh as chief ministers have done squat in this regard. They have no problems with reservations because it does not affect their relatives. It will buy them a few votes. Your better bet is to take things in your own hands. Lower caste parents are going to have to pool their resources to educate their kids in costly private schools. As NRI I would be glad to contribute to such endeavours.

2000 low caste students every year in IIT/IIM will not uplift 200 million people.

Re: # 33

That is exactly the ``compromise`` formula suggested by SoniaG and lapped up by her faithful lackeys in the Congress. If it`s that easy to double the number of seats at IITs and IIMs, by all means let`s do it. But that doesn`t change the fact that half of those 2x seats will STILL be going to undeserving people.

This is a pointless debate. Mr. Behl just has to utter that dreaded phrase ``upper class guy like you`` and we stop dead in our tracks, red-faced at our political incorrectness, ashamed collectively of the cruel atrocities ``we`` inflicted and the wealth ``we`` amassed for thousands of years and probably start apologising for Manusmriti, the Vedas, Ajanta-Ellora and miscelleanous ills the poor, oppressed, English-speaking, internet-accessing, politically represented ``lower class`` author and those he claims to represent, attribute to us

:)

Dear friends

If you think that their is no casteism in India and our society is a very homogenious one then just read the news report below.
Had it not been for the constitutional safeguards, government based on democracy, it would have been impossible for Dalits and backward castes from entering into temples let alone officiate as priests.
You must be knowing that the backward caste and Dalits were not allowed to move on roads meant for Brahmins and upper castes prior to independence.

Friends it hurts when the political power and the priviliges slip out of your hands, but it hurts more when privileges sanctioned by social and caste mores for thousand of years remain no longer relevant.
The upper caste are behaving like the Rajwaras and nawabs of yore, not willing to accept the loss of power and that too at the hands of menials of thousands of years.
The report below will make you aware of the kind of privileges enjoyed by the upper castes in the past and even today.

Yours Sincerely

Abhishek Behl


Equality of priestly opportunity

The decision of the Tamil Nadu Government to allow all qualified persons irrespective of their caste to work as temple priests is an important victory in the continuing fight against the social curse that is India`s caste system.
In keeping with a 2002 Supreme Court ruling that non-Brahmins (including Dalits, of course) can function as temple priests if they are ``well-versed and properly trained`` in temple rituals, the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam Government has expressly provided for the appointment of persons from all communities as archakas.
Customs and hereditary rights, including those dating back several centuries, cannot form the basis for continuing practices that violate fundamental rights guaranteed in the Constitution.
Any discrimination in the choice of priests militates against Article 15 of the Constitution, which guarantees the right of equality to all citizens, and Article 17, which prohibits untouchability.
The 2002 verdict, which the State Government now cites, clarifies the position in the context of a 1972 judgment of the Supreme Court that held the appointment of archakas not authorised by the agamas as violative of Article 25, which grants the right to freedom of religion.
According to the 2002 ruling, even if traditionally a Brahmin alone conducted the pujas, this did not mean a person other than a Brahmin was prohibited from doing so.
This has now provided sufficient ground for the Government to make another attempt — after the 1970 amendment to the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Act — to end the discrimination on the basis of caste.

Hey guys listen

The insistence of the medicos that Article 15(5) of the Constitution should not be implemented is akin to the stance of the Sangh Parivar that matters pertaining to faith are above the law.
What is equally disturbing is the indication that the upper caste elite of this country are losing their faith in a fair debate. But that option was foreclosed by way of coercion.

Now the solution is................

and time has come that we consider making rural and tribal placements, at least for a period of three years, compulsory for all prospective doctors.
A doctor who is indifferent to social justice is an aberration.
Also, there is no reason why the state should subsidise the medical education of the rich, mostly to enable them to find greener pastures abroad or in lucrative private practice in the metropolises.
Shocking events, one after the other, in recent times alert us to the ethical degradation that the medical profession is going through.

Yours truly

Abhishek Behl

I felt strange and it was hillarious to look at one Dr Malik, Secretary of IMA, ranting on Television that there was no caste system in India.
I quote `` We consider no one as scheduled castes and OBCS, every one is equal in India and there is no casteism.``
It is harrowing to listen to such people, who perpetrate all the sins of casteism in their daily lives, but are not ready to accept the harsh reality to serve their interests.

When you say that India would be divided on Caste, I must say that India is already divided and bleeding.
Just go to the hinterland and the villages.
The lustre of a Metro-rail and shopping malls in the metros might hide this all pervading institution, but just go in the morning and interact with the sweepers, and you will find that they have been doing this for ages.
The way the medicos are protesting and the manner in which the upper caste media is projecting them, it means that job of a sweeper, a mochi or a car cleaner is demeaning and should be done by those, who have been historically meant to do these.

Yours only

Abhishek Behl

Here are some letters from the Backward castes for the kind perusal of readers.

Quota issue

The protests against the Centre`s proposal to reserve 27 per cent seats for the Other Backward Classes in Central universities are motivated by vested interests. The issue is not about the dilution of standards; it is about denying the backward citizens access to higher education. If the striking students are indeed concerned about declining standards, why do they remain silent on the issue of management quota seats? It is well known that admission to colleges through the quota is by hefty capitation fee. Does it admit meritorious, poor students?

K.M. Abbas,
Ernakulam, Kerala
The protests are unfortunate and unjust. The elite have forgotten that they have enjoyed 3,000 years of 100 per cent reservation in every aspect of life — from education to law making. The backward classes had no access to education. Even today, most sweepers are Dalits and almost all priests belong to the forward caste. The forward castes have not become elite overnight. Better education and occupational opportunities, combined with a false sense of superiority, have helped through generations. It is now time to empower the marginalised sections.

Yogesh Kumar,
New Delhi
Merit is a misnomer for prejudice — prejudice based on religion, and caste. And it is deep-rooted and well-entrenched in people`s psyche. It manifests in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways in all aspects of our life. As long as caste continues to be part of our socio-economic discourse, we need laws to ensure justice and equality.

J.C. Anthony,
Bangalore
The only viable immediate solution seems to be to increase the number of seats by 27 per cent.

N. Ananthakrishnan,
Pondicherry

#31 by swarrier

[Okay let`s not get carried away by this sort of reasoning or prejudices. There are factual errors in your statement.]

One of the advantages of having facts on your side, as opposed to hurried google searches, is that one rarely has to put one`s foot in the mouth.

There are NO factual errors in my statement.

[Continental africa does include Egypt which had its script and for that matter the old state of Israel.]

Yes, Northen Africa has been populated by Arab immigrants for many centuries - the Egyptians are and were a mixed race.


[There are also scripts like the Bassa in the area of Liberia]

Developed in the 1900`s, AFTER exposure to other outside scripts.


[there is Ethiopian script]

The Ethiopian script originated from the Arabic script.


[there is the Vai script from West Africa ..... ]

Developed in the 1900s as well.


[There have been African inventors too. For example Graville Woods invented the telegraph system for communicating with moving trains. He was awarded a patent for that in 1887 . David Blackwell in Berkeley has done fundamental work in game theory. George Washington Carver is well known in the area of biology. ]

The quantity, as well as the quality, is pretty meager. Nothing to write home about.


[Closer to home , I`m not sure you could dismiss Ambedkar as a moron could you? ]

No, I would not. But he was no genius either. There were many other, and more qualified people to do the job. The job was given to him as a symbolic gesture - an appropriate one - in my opinion.

But if you read my post, you will see that I am talking about contributions to the hard sciences.


[I would wish to see a level playing field for all , as difficult as it sounds. Otherwise we just exchange one set of reservations for another. ]

You have two more wishes left.



But seriously...


Since you mentioned prejudices - NOTHING I wrote indicates prejudice. I am pointing at facts, not drawing conclusions from them. I am saying that whining is not going to get you respect - actual achievements in the hard sciences will. I remember an American businessman being interviewed about whether he would employ blacks in his company if they were more qualified than a white person. His answer was that NO businessman would choose someone who would make him less money than another person, regardless of color. So my point is that for that businessman to think that a black person would make him the same, or more money than another white, red, or green person, blacks have to establish a reputation for achievements - whining and affirmative action won`t change perceptions.

The same holds true for OBCs/SCs/STs in India.

And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances. Read the book ``Guns, Germs and Steel``. It got the Pulitzer prize a few years ago. A fascinating read. It explains scientifically and quite convincingly why the spread of education and knowledge has varied the way it has all over the world.

Check it out.

mineguruji #45


`` and time has come that we consider making rural and tribal placements, at least for a period of three years, compulsory for all prospective doctors.
A doctor who is indifferent to social justice is an aberration.
Also, there is no reason why the state should subsidise the medical education of the rich, mostly to enable them to find greener pastures abroad or in lucrative private practice in the metropolises. ``

To say somehow the health statistics of the rural and poor will improve by putting some urban kids in rural areas is completely baseless.

I have no problem if you allow private medical colleges. The rich can study there.

Re: # 33

LEt us take this proposal-

Let us create special OBC IIT-s and IIM-s.....let us have an entrance exam only for the OBCs/SC/ST............Let us change the existing IIT Delhi into an exclusive OBC/SC/ST concern...............then let us create new IIT-s , IIM-s at say Patna ...but exclusively for General....like this we would not bastardize the system of merit with the politics that goes in the name of `affirmative action` ............... Let us do it before these good for nothing Red `intellectuals` politicize every bit of private enterprise in India...............

Ref mineguruji #45

[.....and time has come that we consider making rural and tribal placements, at least for a period of three years, compulsory for all prospective doctors.]

Nope. Place the SC/ST/OBC doctors in New Delhi, right next to the ministers` and MPs` bungalows. Every single current and former politician should be treated only by these people. Why should they use their ill-gotten wealth to go to private doctors of repute? Why should they be allowed to go abroad for treatment? They should be forced to take several doses of their own medicine.

[A doctor who is indifferent to social justice is an aberration.]

On the other hand, a politician should not behave as if an SC/ST/OBC doctor is an Untouchable and so he should not be treated by one of them. This is the 21st century.

[Also, there is no reason why the state should subsidise the medical education of the rich, mostly to enable them to find greener pastures abroad or in lucrative private practice in the metropolises.]

Should they subsidize the OBC/SC/ST for the same purpose? Put the MBBS graduates in chains. More so if they didn`t have good enough scores to get in on their own.

Re: # 47

``Merit is a misnomer for prejudice — prejudice based on religion, and caste. And it is deep-rooted and well-entrenched in people`s psyche.``

Tell me O Ye great intellectuals how is 20/100 equal to 90/100 in a maths paper?
Do you mean that the wrong solution provided by some one in his physics question paper is equally `meritorious` just because the solution provider was an SC/ST/OBC or say because his father hit him on the head on that day?

Re: # 48
Krishna_abcd

I don`t understand the context of your letter at all. You mentioned that there was no script developed in Africa. Egyptian script by the way is not Arabic. The hieroglyphics were developed by non-Arabs. If Ethiopian script came from Arabic influences are you telling me that scripts all over the world developed completely independent of each other without any cultural exchanges.

Even your friend Jared Diamond speaks of only two independently developed script forms, one in China and the other one in the Mesopotamian valley. All others are to quote him rip-offs. Which means our Indian scripts too. I have read ``Guns germs and Steel``. It is a good book. But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think. There are alternate theories that exist and there are many scholars who do not agree with Jared Diamond.

Incidentally about the Vai script (from your favourite search engine )
A syllabary is a set of characters each of which denotes a syllable rather than a single sound. The Vai syllabary was devised by Momolu Duwalu Bukele in 1830 near Cape Mount in Liberia. It was actually adapted from ancient ideographs that had been in use two centuries before) and is still prevalent today where Vais use it for informal correspondence.

The fact is that Black Africans were capable of developing scripts after being exposed to outside influences just as our ancestors were.

Don`t point to hard sciences etc in your mail. As far as I can infer you are saying some people are inferior to other people. That part is very clear. I am saying you are wrong.

Why does it have to be hard science to impress you. Can a Mathematician like Blackwell be anything less than your hard scientist? George Washinton Carver whom I mentioned is a hard scientist. Don`t back track on your argument. You mentioned there was not a single Black hard scientist of international repute.

And since you appreciate google so much you can search for Black scientists (hard sciences) of international repute. You will come up with a few.
Don`t tell me that prejudices do not apply in cases of hiring. They change as people change. Otherwise there would not have been signs in Puritan America in the 1800`s saying ``No Irish need apply``. And if it weren`t for affiirmative actiion and people like Martin Luther King none of us would find the US so easy to live in.

Since you are free with your suggestions you may want to read about some African contributions too , to our collective intelligence. ``The Crest of the Peacock`` is a good book.

As you said, check it out.

Lastly, your statement ...`And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances.``
So don`t you think you are saying that if you expose these poor folks to culture and a better set of circumstances they will be as good as us enlightened folks. Are you by any chance arguing for affirmative action / reservations? -)

The only interesting question about education in india is how to expand it FAST.

How can we ensure that ALL elementary schools are effective?

Can we empower panchayat/neighborhood groups to check every week?

How can we ensure that kids in rural areas stay thru at least 6th or 8th standard?

Can we give a cash payment for every girl who finishes 8th standard?

Can we promise that if a girl completes high school she will be given at least
Rs. 10,000 for marriage/further education/any other expense?

How can we make sure that teachers actually come to school everyday?

How can we make sure that each schooll has some supplies and books for students?

How can we train better teachers and keep them in the teaching profession?

How can we expand high schools, say 4X, in the next 5 years?

How can we double colleges and universities in next 10 years?

NONE OF THIS IS OF ANY INTEREST TO LOSERS LIKE ABHISHEK BEHL. None of this is of interest to any left-wing communist moron ``progressive`` thinkers. THEY HAVE ZERO
INTEREST IN EDUCATION. Their only interest is in showing off words like ``fascist brahmin`` or ``marxist analysis`` or some other stupidity.

THIS IS THE REAL TRAGEDY OF THIS SITUATION.

ajeya and harimau, my dear threaded brothers,

forget about really old past. it is a fact that brahmins enjoyed affirmative action for studying (actually they had little choice) in the recent past. in villages and towns of india, it was a common practice to board brahmin student in various homes while they attended school. this is a huge deal. when i was young, i have seen practice in small towns, where the brahmin boy will go to specific homes and shout ``bikshan dehi`` and will get fresh-cooked meal (not basi roti). typically these kids were of poor means, sometimes fatherless or orphans, but were brahmin and society made sure to take of them and made sure (almost forced them to) they did school. it was also common for local small-time raja to pick up very basic room-n-board of brahmin kids so that they attended school. these were very basic and brutal institution where kids were always hungry and woke up at 5 am to mug-up shlokas and do yoga-kalisthenics, but other kids of poor means did not have this available.

so its incredibly naiive and baseless to assert that brahmins did things by pulling themselves up by their langoties. they had at times cumpolsary affirmative action supported by larger society.

tat-astu

Re: # 55

jang:

``typically these kids were of poor means, sometimes fatherless or orphans, but were brahmin and society made sure to take of them and made sure (almost forced them to) they did school. it was also common for local small-time raja to pick up very basic room-n-board of brahmin kids so that they attended school. these were very basic and brutal institution where kids were always hungry and woke up at 5 am to mug-up shlokas and do yoga-kalisthenics, but other kids of poor means did not have this available.

so its incredibly naiive and baseless to assert that brahmins did things by pulling themselves up by their langoties. they had at times cumpolsary affirmative action supported by larger society. ``

shouldn`t the society at large then should drag the SC/ST/OBC`s kicking and screaming to the schools i.e. primary schools so that their foundation is strong and later on they won`t need crutches for college admission and jobs.

Behl dude:

you seem to be hell bent on justifying reservations even when your examples say exactly the opposite.

in your DMK eg. its good that the gov would appoint pundits based on their knowledge of vedas irrespective of their caste. whereas you are justifying jobs/seats based on castes not on the basis of talent.

don`t you see the irony??

also about that Thomas dude who is fretting that IIT chennai doesn`t have enough of Tamilians. hello.... does iit mumbai need to have more marathis or iit kanpur more up-ites....

so as i get it, its good to have reservation/bias in admission as long as it in your favor otherwise its discrimination.

#53 by swarrier

[I don`t understand the context of your letter at all. You mentioned that there was no script developed in Africa. Egyptian script by the way is not Arabic. The hieroglyphics were developed by non-Arabs.]

Sez who?

[If Ethiopian script came from Arabic influences are you telling me that scripts all over the world developed completely independent of each other without any cultural exchanges.]

The point is that there were NONE until the 1800s.

Got it?

No?

Oh Well...


[Even your friend Jared Diamond speaks of only two independently developed script forms, one in China and the other one in the Mesopotamian valley. All others are to quote him rip-offs. Which means our Indian scripts too. I have read ``Guns germs and Steel``. It is a good book. But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think. There are alternate theories that exist and there are many scholars who do not agree with Jared Diamond. ]

This tells me that you most certainly have NOT read the book. Let`s take this line: ``But don`t think that it is gospel because it agrees with what you think``. Tell me - what does it say that agrees with what I think, which, according to you, is not gospel?

I`ll be waiting for your response.


[Incidentally about the Vai script (from your favourite search engine )
A syllabary is a set of characters each of which denotes a syllable rather than a single sound. The Vai syllabary was devised by Momolu Duwalu Bukele in 1830 near Cape Mount in Liberia. It was actually adapted from ancient ideographs that had been in use two centuries before) and is still prevalent today where Vais use it for informal correspondence.

The fact is that Black Africans were capable of developing scripts after being exposed to outside influences just as our ancestors were. ]

Yes, but you missed the point - NO written scripts until the 1800s.

Get it?

No?

Oh well....


[Don`t point to hard sciences etc in your mail. As far as I can infer you are saying some people are inferior to other people. That part is very clear. I am saying you are wrong. ]

If it is clear to you, that means the issue is far from clear.

Why does pointing to the hard sciences mean that ``saying some people are inferior to other people``?


[Why does it have to be hard science to impress you.]

It`s not me, it`s everybody. An achievement in mathematics will change many more minds than the a degree in humanities.

That`s just the way it is. And rightfully so, if I might add.


[Can a Mathematician like Blackwell be anything less than your hard scientist?]

It is getting rather irritating to have to repeat myself. HOW MANY Blackwells do you have amongst the huge black population of the world?


[George Washinton Carver whom I mentioned is a hard scientist. Don`t back track on your argument. You mentioned there was not a single Black hard scientist of international repute. ]

My dear fellow, you will notice at the end of this discussion that I am right on EVERY point I mentioned. And you are not.

George Washington Carver is NOT very reputed or well-known. Not like Stephen Hawking, or Jagadish Chandra Bose, for example.

And as I mentioned, the quality as well as the quantity is meager.


[And since you appreciate google so much you can search for Black scientists (hard sciences) of international repute. You will come up with a few.]

Let me repeat (this is getting rather tiring):

The quality as well as the quantity is meager.


[Don`t tell me that prejudices do not apply in cases of hiring. They change as people change. Otherwise there would not have been signs in Puritan America in the 1800`s saying ``No Irish need apply``. And if it weren`t for affiirmative actiion and people like Martin Luther King none of us would find the US so easy to live in. ]

Try not to put words in my mouth.

Prejudices in hiring INDEED exist. As I mentioned in the case of the American businessman, IT IS BASED ON PERCEPTIONS. AND TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS, ONE HAS TO HAVE ACHIEVEMENTS. NOT IN HISTORY, OR SOCIAL SCIENCES, BUT IN THE HARD SCIENCES.


[Since you are free with your suggestions you may want to read about some African contributions too , to our collective intelligence. ``The Crest of the Peacock`` is a good book.

As you said, check it out. ]

I will check out the ``The Crest of the Peacock``. Se what you are talking about.


[Lastly, your statement ...`And coming back to your accusation about prejudices. I do not think that genetically human races are different enough to account for differences in intelligence (I could be wrong, of course). I think it is culture and a chain of circumstances.``
So don`t you think you are saying that if you expose these poor folks to culture and a better set of circumstances they will be as good as us enlightened folks. Are you by any chance arguing for affirmative action / reservations? -)]

I am for reservations that are well targeted, limited in scope, and in time. I am AGAINST reservations as they are being proposed today.

AS I HAVE MENTIONED IN MY PREVIOUS POST, the OBCs, SCs, STs etc. bear the lions share of the blame (like the black africans) in their own lack of development, athough upper castes have contributed to it. Therefore, the upper castes should not be made scapegoats (beyond what exists today) in this minority appeasing votebank-targeted political schemes.

Re: # 58
[Sez who]
Ancient egyptians are not necessarily considered a part of the semitic race. Only the Copts consider themselves descendants of the ancient egyptians and they feel they are not Arabic.

[The point is that there were NONE until the 1800s.]

Your original post said 1900 for the Vai script. We won`t go into your got it routine here.

[This tells me that you most certainly have NOT read the book. ]
Suits me, I can`t prove anything because the book is at home and I am at work. So you can surmise what you want. I guess you must be fishing into that book like it`s the next best thing since sliced bread.

[Yes, but you missed the point - NO written scripts until the 1800s. ]
Nope following the same line of reasoning the Dark continent really came into contact with other civilisations around the 1700`s. 100 years is not too long for intelligent people to fashion a script.

[If it is clear to you, that means the issue is far from clear.]
I`m sure this made a lot of sense to you but it doesn`t to me.

[Why does pointing to the hard sciences mean that ``saying some people are inferior to other people``?]

I wasn`t talking about the hard sciences here. The two sentences were juxtaposed too closely. I was referring to your post as a whole. It reeks of nothing but a smug sense of superiority.

[It is getting rather irritating to have to repeat myself. HOW MANY Blackwells do you have amongst the huge black population of the world?]
You asked for one scientist. I gave you one.

[My dear fellow, you will notice at the end of this discussion that I am right on EVERY point I mentioned. And you are not. ]
Repeating it loud and often doesn`t change anything. I thought going of at tangents was what you used to accuse other people of. My reply still remains the same. Your original post is prejudiced. Everything else is an attempt to refute what I wrote and justify your bits by hedging about.

[George Washington Carver is NOT very reputed or well-known. Not like Stephen Hawking, or Jagadish Chandra Bose, for example. ]
Stephen Jay Gould knew about George Washington Carver. He`s good enough for me. Jagdish Chandra Bose is known to Indians. And he was a great scientist no doubt. But he`s not exactly known to the hoi polloi. Besides I thought the argument was about being a respected scientist. Not whether the man in the street knew anything about you. Tell me what does the man in the street know about Sankara, or De Morgan.

[And as I mentioned, the quality as well as the quantity is meager. ]
In your second post my friend, after you put both your feet in your mouth squarely in the first post. You just wanted one scientist. It`s not really tiring to me to say this.

[try not to put words in my mouth.

Prejudices in hiring INDEED exist. As I mentioned in the case of the American businessman, IT IS BASED ON PERCEPTIONS. AND TO CHANGE PERCEPTIONS, ONE HAS TO HAVE ACHIEVEMENTS. NOT IN HISTORY, OR SOCIAL SCIENCES, BUT IN THE HARD SCIENCES.]
Hmmm I would of course have Stephen Hawking be the Prime Minister of England. Most other people would not think so. Horses for courses , I think you have heard of the term. To me Mozart, is as much a genius as Descartes. I would hire him for a director`s post at a conservatory. Not a scientist. Intelligence comes in various forms. I`m sure Alan Turing would have done a better job being Churchill, and vice versa. Yes, No, maybe?

Now we agree on one thing here. I am not in favour of 50 % reservations myself. That has been amply clear from my posts. I`m simply against tarring entire sections of society with one brush.

Have fun.