Change Management:Marx and Muslims

Re: 346 by Folio

Didn`t mean to ignore you there. Just a lack of time.

[Are you from Chettinad or Guntur (mirch eaters)?]

No, I`m not from South India.

[Some of the friends from Pakland (domiciled or expats) have this utopian view of believers. Self-criticism is not a word of their lexicon. I hope the window of the world opens to them when the mind aperture opens & sees the other world(s).

They worry more about the life after death than the present life, unmindful of making the life of themselves and those of others miserable. I am struck by some obersvation of a gentleman in this board that Pakistan is well developed than India! I wish it was and hope they would and steer (the people on either side of Radcliff Line) clear of this endless moaning!

You find our ex-brothers and their families seeking visas to the first world countries. I read (Masood Hasan, The News two weeks back) that about 8000 Pakistanis sought asylum in South Africa! You find many such cases of illegal migration. I heard from friends that visas to the Kafiristans are arranged at prices like ten lakhs! If Pakistan is such a developed country why they seek migration to Kafiristans? It also blows the TN Theory in some sense.

Many doubts! ]

Folio, I`m not really interested in Pakistan except for the fact that it has been an intractable enemy and a major pain in the a$$ for India for the longest time. If they feel they are doing better than India - fine. If they think that they are superior in some strange incomprehensible way - that`s all right with me. I just worry about their presence like a melanoma that refuses to go away.

I`m not interested in Paki-bashing. However, when I hear comments about Kashmir from some idiots on this forum (Zeena comes to mind), I feel that people like Arjun deserve an award for the fine work they are doing.

#344 krishna. I am glad you appreciate some of what I wrote. You are entitled you your views on the Quran, and certainly the behavior of too many muslims today and through the centuries is no indication that being a muslim is either necessary or sufficient to being a good human being.

As for what the pope said, I think you are referring to the second Vatican Council held in 1962 (a century after the first one), where the church changed its historical stand and acknowledged salvation was open to nonchristians (jews and muslims being specifically mentioned, but the gates being left open to all). This was part of the effort made by Pope John Paul to end divisions with people of other faiths. So, it wasnt just a flash in the pan, but in fact a historic shift in the church doctrine (at least to the best of my understanding).

#345 ylh i am glad you see the sense behind what i wrote. however, i think ``contemptuous`` is the wrong word you use - i differ from his views, but (as I think my post makes clear) I very much appreciate his sincerity. I just think that his views are shaped by generally prevailing heresay in Pakistan, and that is why I emphasize reading the Quran without any preconceived notions of what the ``islamic`` view really is (since too much of what passes for islam is in fact fiction created over the centuries for the benefit of the rulers, or plain superstition and so forth). The clear and simple message of the Quran (as stated in bold in my post #343 below) then comes through loud and clear.

Here is another gem. I donot believe in Allah or any such monotheistic BS and according to this Quranic blah, i am destined to lie on some evil bed. (i am so scared).

---

003.012
YUSUFALI: Say to those who reject Faith: ``Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,-an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.

RE: Krishna and Joshi :
Here is the proper authentic answer to your questions. Allah Mian gave a proper template in al-Quran:


In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Re: # 344

Krishna,

Are you from Chettinad or Guntur (mirch eaters)?,

Some of the friends from Pakland (domiciled or expats) have this utopian view of believers. Self-criticism is not a word of their lexicon. I hope the window of the world opens to them when the mind aperture opens & sees the other world(s).

They worry more about the life after death than the present life, unmindful of making the life of themselves and those of others miserable. I am struck by some obersvation of a gentleman in this board that Pakistan is well developed than India! I wish it was and hope they would and steer (the people on either side of Radcliff Line) clear of this endless moaning!

You find our ex-brothers and their families seeking visas to the first world countries. I read (Masood Hasan, The News two weeks back) that about 8000 Pakistanis sought asylum in South Africa! You find many such cases of illegal migration. I heard from friends that visas to the Kafiristans are arranged at prices like ten lakhs! If Pakistan is such a developed country why they seek migration to Kafiristans? It also blows the TN Theory in some sense.

Many doubts!

Man what this board needs is a tolerance of views ... even those that might diametrically opposite to ours... including the claim that some may be descendants of this famous figure or that... though that has no real bearing on present reality ...

That said there is logic to what tahmed says... and I agree with him without sharing his contempt for ntsyed`s point of view... ...

#343 by tahmed32

The last Pope had made a statement to the effect that people of any religion, or no religion at all, can still ``reach`` heaven, if they are good people. He was roundly condemned by conservative Christians all over the globe. For, as they correctly pointed out, what was the point then of converting heathens and thus ``saving`` their souls?

You made a similar statement on this forum. This kind of non-narcissistic thought process is a wonderful development in the Muslim world, and the more Muslims think this way, the better this world is going to be.

However, the central problem will always remain, and will not go away. Because it is codified in the Koran. The message of the Koran is neither ``simple`` nor ``clear``. You may insist on it, but since I do not think you are not more intelligent than me by any appreciable extent, and my reading comprehension is at least as good as yours, as is my ability to do research from multiple credible sources, I am not buying that. The problem will persist until some wise Muslim chooses to remove a lot of hateful sayings from the Koran (by calling them ``inaccuracies` or anything else he wants to), and rewrites Muhammad`s life-story.

That will be the beginning of the end of a lot of trouble and misery in this world.

ntsyed #335/339: While wishing you an enjoyable vacation, let me thank you for a sincere discussion. You raise a number of interesting issues in these two posts, to which I have provided my views below for you to consider if you wish while parasailing (Holy Book in hand) in the Bahamas. :-)

Equality of all People: We agree here then. No issue.

Hadees (or Hadith): Your refer to the hadees to reach your conclusion ``not to put down others` beliefs regardless of how trivial and flawed they may appear to you. . I ask you, why not refer to the Quran for this? Is the Quran not sufficiently clear and emphetic on this matter? Indeed, why not simply rely upon one`s common sense and conscience to reach this conclusion? Since, isnt the over-riding message of the Quran one that places responsibility on the individual to use his God-given faculties to distinguish between right and wrong? And isnt that one simple message worth more than all the Hadith, all khutba ever held put together???!!

The sad reality is that muslim nations are by and large the least respectful, the least tolerant of all nations - isnt this because they have forgotten this simple, clear message of Islam and replaced it with all kinds of instructions cobbled together over the centuries by all sorts of individuals who (per the dictum of the equality of all people) have no greater standing before God than you or me??

3. Faith in Allah This faith is no monopoly of the muslims. Indeed, it is intrinsic to all humans, a part of our psyche. Thus, as in Taoism (and I believe there is something similar reflected in the Mahabharatha) they say ``The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao``: in other words, we cannot understand God. God is the Unknown. The frontiers of physics today are starting to see Creation as being a projection of knowledge from outside our four known dimensions!! Thus, the actionable item in the Quran for all humans is deeds, and intentions and making good use of God-given faculties to see and to hear and to reason . And that, my friend, is what Islam is all about - or would have been all about had it not been used for selfish purposes by kings and caliphs and their paid servants - the qazis - through the ages which has repaced the clear and simple message of the Quran that empowers the individual with an oppressive system that uses shariah to subordinate the individual to the dictates of the will of the king (or caliph, or dictator).

Re: # 338

Syed sahab, in one post you said you studied Hinduism, now you talk of this grant of 7 lives. You aint read nothin`, man, you aint read nothin`.

Anyways, wish you best of luck with whatever you believe in. Who cares?

Me too.

Have no desire to further continue this heaven v/s hell baloney.

#332 by ntsyed

I rest my case.

* evil grin *

various by tahmed32

Since I`m about to take off on the best vacation of my life, and may not be able to come back to chowk for a while, I`ll share my concept with you regarding `All people being equal.`

Dear friend, please read carefully: All humans are CREATED equal. It is us who choose to be ``unequal`` with our deeds, which are based on beliefs and so forth. That`s why there`s a need for Judgement Day, because Allah gave each of us a level playing field.

Now, I hope you`ll not post the childish question about why one is created rich and others poor, etc. That`s a separate debate to understand the reasons behind it. Suffice it to say, the word is E-QUALITY, not E-QUANTITY.

I think you`ll appreciate a hadith I heard only recently in which some of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH) asked him (PBUH) about why the non-believers have had so much more wealth since as far back as we can think of wealth? And why does Allah allow them to accumulate so much wealth, which brings them immense power to subjugate the common person. The Prophet (PBUH) is said to have said that if all wealth in this entire world was worth one feather of a mosquito to Allah, Allah would not grant the non-believers even one drop of water.

Another hadith I learned not too long ago is not to put down others` beliefs regardless of how trivial and flawed they may appear to you. There is tremendous wisdom behind it if you care to think.

With this I bid thee adieu & Allah Hafiz,

ntsyed :-)~~

Re: # 331 by subhashjoshi

I apologize for the interruption.

subhash saheb, I understand one gets 7 lives according to the Hindu mythology. I don`t mean any disrespect but please do ask yourself about what happens after the 7th reincarnation?

Eventually it`s the Heavens and Hell, right?

Which means there`s going to be a reckoning, right? And everyone`s good deeds and bad deeds each has accumulated in all 7 lives will be separated for the verdict. Correct?

Now think about the possibility for the sorry sod who gets his first life before this planet stops moving and everything comes to an end. And logic dictates that it has to end if there`s be a grand reckoning.

What should we expect for that particular sorry sod?

If he/she has been a good person in the ONLY life and makes it to heaven, then wouldn`t it be an injustice with the ones who had to work 7 times harder to get to the same place?

On the other hand, if the he/she had been a bad person and is sent to hell, then would it be fair for him/her to have gotten only 1 chance to make it to heaven?

Whatever the case may be, somebody is going to end up the short end of the stick. Don`t you think that defeats the whole purpose of reckoning, heaven and hell?

Anyway, the reason I don`t demand an answer from you, instead I`ve asked you to ask yourself these questions, is because the answers may prove more valuable to you than me. Needless to say, it may take you some time to find the answers, because for one thing the answers will create more questions in your mind.

As for the correlation between `good deeds and faith` - good deeds are no big deal. Goats, cattle, dogs, and all the other creatures do it everyday. Such deeds are not limited to feeding the hungry, guiding the blind, etc etc. We all do that whether we`re faithful or unfaithful.

Of courese, such deeds are rewarded here and they may be rewarded in the hereafter too. But there comes a time in everyone`s life when one is faced with a tough choice: to do the right at one`s own expense, even when one can justify his/her inaction or the ill-action in that particular situation; or to protect one`s own interest at the expense of others.

On these occasions does one need FAITH in a sound and unshakable ideology - not the actions of the subscribers of that faith - to provide him/her courage to do the right thing. [I hope some can differentiate between the Islam and Muslims now. Otherwise, the world hasn`t lost anything extra anyway.] The situation may vary for each one of us and it may come at different times in each of our lives. It may be related to the family, friends, work, society, the world, and what have you.

The sound and unshakable ideology - again not the actions of its subscribers - gives one a set of principles to live by. Then the principles determine a purpose in one`s life. The purpose in turn gives one a vision, or a mission if you will, for the eternity. Subsequently, using this vision/mission one maps out a chart - a course of action - in one`s life. One can reverse the order, but still he/she will come to the following conclusion.

With the set of principles, vision, and direction one is enabled to continue to do the righteous deeds regardless of the severity of the situation. That`s where the correlation between FAITH and GOOD DEEDS lie. In such situations, the weak of faith cannot find enough courage to put their life on the line in order to do the good deed hence cower. And as more and more people cower, they become slaves. Whether they become enslaved by other human beings or not, they certainly become slaves of their cowerdice, imprisoned in their own conscience. That`s exactly where the evolutionists and people of mythologies, ideologies and faiths other than Islam find themselves speechless and dumbfounded.

Other than that, even the serial killers come up with a justification for their heinous crimes. Dhamer had one, GWB has one, etc etc etc.

I understand some here are tempted by their incorrigible urge to bring WTC into this to distract everyone from the topic at hand, particularly regarding this article. I urge them again not to do so without a solid evidence that could stand in a court of law. So far there hasn`t been one, and I`d be delighted to see one if you have it. Still if you feel you have to shout to be heard whether you have anything to say or not, please be my guest and knock yourselves out because I`m finally off to Makkah & Madinah in a matter of few hours, insha Allah.

Salaam `alaikum to Muslims and peace to others.

Sincerely,
ntsyed :-)~~

Oh I forgot, someone asked me who decides Islam is the best system, or something to that effect. The answer is, no human being can. If anyone could, that someone could have taken on the challenge extended to the humanity by Allah in the Quran to produce even one chapter equal to the smallest chapter in it. 1400 years and counting, but haven`t had maa ka laal come up with anything remotely like a verse from the Quran.

This is only one of the evidences of its Supremacy. :-)~~

#311 by tahmed32

Keep in mind that I had no interest in disturbing the fool`s paradise you indians live in to begin with.

Fool`s Paradise is where you live in dear Tahmed. The alternate reality where Pakis are decent folks who focus on their own issues. Where the Kashmir issue, Danish cartoons, and the Israel-Palestine conflict are local Paki issues.

But if you losers come running to chowk to ridicule Pakistanis while crowing about India as if you were the Indian Minister for Bullshit and Propaganda, then I dont mind showing you the mirror.

The only thing you`ve been able to do so far is amuse everyone on Chowk right from ntsyed to krishna, two opposite ends of the spectrum. You`re Chowk`s uncrowned village idiot.

Re: # 334 by bharath

It`s funny you equated my opinion as hopelessness. Not that I`m offended, not even in the least bit, I think it is the hopelessness of the non-believers who become content with this temporary life due to lack of faith and the will to seek better for themselves in the eventuality.

BTW, I don`t mean to digress but post the following as a simple FYI. Bertrand Russell also said: ``It cannot be expected that most powerful military nations will sit still while other nations reverse the balance of power by mere power of breeding.`` [Marriage and Moral, 1929]

With rapidly decreasing workforce of their own, the above is perhaps the most pivotal concern of today`s powerful military nations. Hence, we witness an incessant verbal outcry for the reduction of population in countries like Pakistan and India. Perhaps the increasing military incursions all over the globe by current powers serve this purpose too. Allah Knows best.

Suckers as most of our compatriots are, particularly Pakistanis and Indians in our context of discussion, faced with these military powerful nations and unable to fathom the latter`s underlying agenda, have bought into this rubbish of population reduction with body and soul. In light of the above quote, little do our compatriots know, they are axing their own feet and pushing their future generations into slavery by reducing our own populations.

Just a thought for the `wise` amongst us.

peace
:-)~~